[HN Gopher] A Knife Forged in Fire
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A Knife Forged in Fire
Author : hentrep
Score : 48 points
Date : 2024-12-19 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.chicagomag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.chicagomag.com)
| lqet wrote:
| That is some fine writing.
| gopalv wrote:
| I read this with an echo of the Douglas Adams passage about the
| Sandwich Maker in Mostly Harmless.
|
| > many was the evening when the Sandwich Maker and the Tool Maker
| could be seen silhouetted against the light of the setting sun
| and the Tool Maker's forge making slow sweeping movements through
| the air, trying one knife after another, comparing the weight of
| this one with the balance of another, the suppleness of a third
| and the handle binding of a fourth
| vzaliva wrote:
| I get the nostalgia, but it's worth noting that modern metallurgy
| has far surpassed classic knife-making techniques. Industrially-
| made knives are stronger and hold an edge much better.
| blovescoffee wrote:
| It really depends. A cheap knife from ikea will not. But a
| powdered steel knife which is itself a luxury will definitely
| hold its edge better than carbon steel.
| foobarian wrote:
| There is also a tradeoff between ductility and hardness where
| going too far in the hardness direction results in a knife
| that chips easily and is really hard to sharpen. Softer
| German style steels are in a sweet spot for me in that
| regard, even though they require more frequent sharpening.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| I was disappointed to find I had chipped my expensive
| Global chefs knife without having tried anything out of the
| ordinary like bones or nuts (side note, ceramic knives are
| not the tool for slicing pecans!)
| adrian_b wrote:
| The very purpose of the powdered steel mentioned by the
| previous poster is to improve this tradeoff between
| ductility and hardness.
|
| The simplest carbon steels can be made very hard with an
| appropriate heat treatment, if they have high carbon
| content, but then, as you say, they chip too easily.
|
| The various kinds of alloyed steels that can be used
| instead of carbon steel attempt to improve the tradeoff
| between ductility and hardness, so that one may choose a
| heat treatment that results in greater hardness without
| making the blade as fragile as a blade made of carbon steel
| with the same hardness.
|
| The alloyed steels made using powder metallurgy are said to
| achieve the best tradeoff between hardness and ductility,
| but I have not tested this yet, because they are also the
| most expensive.
|
| In the past I have used softer German style steels, but I
| do not like having to sharpen them, so now I prefer to use
| only harder and sharper Japanese knives, which must be
| sharpened much less frequently.
| TheCondor wrote:
| Do you have a sharpening system you recommend?
| foobarian wrote:
| Unfortunately nothing fancy, I have been doing it
| manually on a large (10") two-sided sharpening stone.
| More gear-oriented friends swear by products such as e.g.
| what's available here https://wickededgeusa.com/
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| On the cheaper side, Lansky makes a good jig and set of
| stones that's good for setting angles, and getting razor
| edges if you already have the angle set. [1] Worksharp
| makes a similar kit that's more stationary, with several
| versions at different costs [2]
|
| For a little more, and a little more freehand style, you
| can try Spyderco's Sharpmaker [3]. My dad has one of
| these, and growing up he would sharpen kitchen and pocket
| knives to a razor edge very quickly with it.
|
| I personally freehand sharpen my knives using Shapton
| stones [4]. I have the Kurumaku at 320, 1000, 2000, 5000,
| and 8000 grits, although the higher grits don't get used
| often; usually the 1000 grit alone is enough for getting
| a razor edge fairly quickly. I got mine from Amazon, but
| you can find them various places for $30-50 each.
|
| [1] https://www.lansky.com/deluxe-5-stone-system.html [2]
| https://www.worksharptools.com/products/precision-adjust-
| kni... [3]
| https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77
| [4] https://shapton.co.jp/en/#products
| vl wrote:
| Depends on level of commitment and results you need.
|
| To do it once and for all buy belt sharpener - Work Sharp
| with Blade Grinder Attachment being probably the best
| price vs quality vs functionality.
|
| For quality sharpening that requires a bit of time buy
| rolling knife sharpener.
|
| For quality sharpening which is fast and anyone can do
| buy electrical ChefMate with two slots and follow the
| instructions.
|
| PS Do not bother with anything that requires clamping the
| knife, etc. You'll use it once - it's just too much
| hustle to setup and adjust these systems. You spend most
| of the time unpacking, bolting it together and then
| readjusting the knife instead of sharpening.
|
| This is why rolling sharpeners work really well - fast
| magnetic attachment, angles are pre-set.
| antoviaque wrote:
| The bottom of a ceramic mug works wonders.
| krunck wrote:
| I've got a Japanese stainless steel Damascus kitchen knife.
| Sharp as hell. But you need to change your cutting
| technique because the edge is more brittle than the mushy
| steel knives we all know. That's not to say that mushy
| steel knives don't have a place in the kitchen. Always use
| the right tool for the job.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > A cheap knife from ikea will not.
|
| IKEA BRILJERA knives are the mid-range not cheapest ones. But
| they are not expensive.
|
| But they are made from (The Chinese version of) VG10 steel,
| which will hold an edge very well, and is still stainless.
| antoviaque wrote:
| Indeed! I recently discovered how sharp and good Victorinox
| blades are. Even their cheap 10 euros blades are unbelievably
| sharp. To the point where you have to handle them with
| additional care compared to other knives. The nonchalant way I
| was handling the Ikea-type cooking knives got me a few deep
| cuts.
| jimnotgym wrote:
| Same with 'Frosts of Mora' from Sweden. Cheap, and incredibly
| sharp when new. 100 of those, or a hipster damascas blade???
| klausa wrote:
| The issue with cheap knives isn't how sharp you can get them
| -- you can _anything_ razor sharp relatively easily.
|
| Making a knife that _keeps_ sharp; and that will not
| chip/shatter/handle won't disintegrate is the difficult part.
|
| (You can also argue about blade geometries, how thin the
| blade is etc for hours; but "can this be made sharp" is not a
| problem with cheap/bad knives, generally.)
|
| ---
|
| My (very limited!) understanding of knife steels is that
| "powdered steels" are not what you'll find in a random big
| box store; but rather more expensive, "fancy" lines.
|
| You don't have to spend $450 on hand-forged, artisanal blade
| from Japan, but a $50 buck no-name is not going to be Buy-It-
| For-Life powdered steel knife either.
| antoviaque wrote:
| With a no-name, for sure. And maybe you see the difference
| after a long time? But after a year of unfettered abuse, my
| $50 Victorinox kitchen knife is still as dangerously sharp
| as new, and I have only sharpened it a couple of times.
| perihelions wrote:
| This reminds me of that almost-philosophical discussion about the
| two types of consumers: the ones who carefully research, and then
| buy, the very nicest forks and spoons available to buy on the
| global spoon market, vs. those who agglomerate "whatever" in
| their flatware drawer, and never think about it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4755470 ( _" The Best
| (dcurt.is)"_, 298 comments)
| vl wrote:
| I don't even know how realistically it's even possible to have
| something of one kind in a functioning family kitchen: over the
| years you'll have to replace or supplement the items, and most
| brands don't manufacture same kinds of plates or utensils
| continuously!
|
| For silverware we don't even try - random sets from IKEA and
| restaurant stores combined. For plates we use Macy's colorful
| plates - which they seemed to sell forever, and they changed
| the design slightly few years ago, so now they don't match
| anymore!
| marssaxman wrote:
| You can often find replacements for whatever has broken via
| the aptly named Replacements, Ltd:
|
| https://www.replacements.com/
| equestria wrote:
| Most homes of people who are reasonably well-off - including
| most people on HN - go through three distinct stages.
|
| The first stage is right after you spend an insane amount of
| money to buy the property. At that point, you want to
| validate the investment, so you spend more on making it look
| nice, but you're probably oblivious to many realities of
| homeownership. So yeah, this is when people splurge on
| matched kitchenware, beautiful cutting boards, "smart"
| kitchen appliances, sleek-looking but impractical veneer /
| plastic / glass furniture, etc.
|
| The second stage is when you get kids or pets, and you start
| losing the battle. You eventually throw in the towel,
| accepting that there are going to be dings on the walls and
| on stainless steel appliances, holes in window screens, and
| veneer peeling off after the fifth juice spill accident.
|
| The third stage is when the kids move out and you can
| actually make the space look nice. Except now, you know that
| there's some wisdom to old-fashioned solid wood furniture,
| that cutting boards are for cutting, and so on. So your home
| acquires more of an "old people" vibe.
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Ha! Stainless steel appliances. The new (Bosch) dishwasher
| gets nasty crap spilled down the front. No problem, it's
| stainless steel so get out the scrubby sponge. Ha. The
| stainless steel has a relatively delicate clearcoat on top
| of it which is now messed up. Stainless steel for show
| only, not for actual utility.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| I have 3 stages of flatware right now:
|
| 1. Relatively nice stuff I bought for myself when I moved
| into my apartment
|
| 2. Cheap stuff I bought after a friend used a yellow-green
| scrub sponge and scratched up all my nice stuff
|
| 3. Nice stuff I bought for myself after the divorce (Except
| that it's poorly designed, which makes me wish I'd bought
| something a little more standard. They all have round
| handles, which means the utensils try to spin in your
| hands.)
| foobarian wrote:
| I can in no way shape or form stand "impostor utensils."
| I throw them away ruthlessly (we sometimes acquire them
| when guests bring over food or by accident from
| vacations). When we run low I throw away the whole lot
| and replace it. Same with plates, glasses, or socks.
| Seriously, who has time to match up socks? Just buy 40
| identical pairs and throw away the rest.
| vl wrote:
| This is exactly what I do with socks, and then I replace
| the whole set.
|
| But then it runs into (un)surprising problem: most brands
| don't maintain their designs, so if you find something
| you like, it's not going to be available when it's time
| to replace entire set couple years later.
|
| In the end I standardized on Blacksocks, which seem to
| have same design forever, although they are more
| expensive than I would like.
| jimnotgym wrote:
| You could buy a restaurant quality set of vitrified plates.
| They survive being dropped. They also weigh a ton.
|
| I got mine second hand
| hnlmorg wrote:
| If you buy IKEA then you can't. But if you buy from
| independent specialists then you'll often find their ranges
| will be available for decades.
|
| But then you're paying a minimum PS120 for a set of cutlery
| rather than PS12.
|
| However the way I look at it is that good cutlery lasts a
| lifetime.
| perihelions wrote:
| - _" good cutlery lasts a lifetime"_
|
| I mean, modern ones are just solid chunks of Type 304
| stainless steel; unless you are a family of Ridley Scott
| xenomorphs I can't imagine why they wouldn't.
| eric-hu wrote:
| I hosted a party one time at an Airbnb I was staying at.
| A friend invited his buddy who said he'd come and prepare
| something. His buddy brought a can that needed opening
| and when he found a can opener lacking, he took the
| rental provided chef's knife and stabbed it into the can
| to cut through the top.
|
| The knife did survive, but I spent a good amount of time
| bending the tip back to be mostly straight. I'm sure you
| could destroy a knife by repeating such a practice.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| This is why every travel kit should include a Victorinox
| with a can opener. This savagery must be avoided.
| bee_rider wrote:
| It's Airbnb, you are going to be charged a bunch of
| nickel-and-dime fees anyway. Might as well enjoy the
| expendable nature of everything, I guess.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| That's my point.
|
| Cheap cutlery can often be thin or made from cheaper
| steal that is more prone to rust.
|
| Though granted you can also buy good quality cheaper
| cutlery too (just last week I picked up a set of 16
| pieces for PS16. Bargain)
| vl wrote:
| But they don't - they get lost. Our original sets are
| diminished. So I see it as expenditure, and buy inexpensive
| steel quality sets not worrying about them being matched.
| It's insane to pay 120 pounds for a set. Are these items to
| be used or to worry about them?
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Why would you worry about a solid lump of metal?
|
| I'm also a little confused how lose so much cutlery. I
| have a family too and I've never lost any. But Maybe it's
| a bigger problem with teenagers and thus my kids are
| still a couple of years too young?
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Maybe restaurant supply stores? Likely more durable than
| consumer stuff, and the manufacturer is likely to maintain a
| product line for years. Restaurants are not going to be ok
| with mismatched pieces.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| The way to avoid this is to do a tiny bit of research and
| find a product line that is unlikely to change over time.
| Fiestaware for example is basically unchanged in look and
| feel and inexpensive so you can just buy their stuff and
| replace your broken plates without introducing a mismatched
| item.
|
| Airstream is an amazing example of this in a premium product:
| their trailers get new features but built around existing
| designs. Parts from different decades just fit together. I
| wish cars worked like this.
|
| Furniture is tougher as both styles change and there isn't a
| lot of manufacturers that make the same thing over and over.
|
| My personal favorite: socks. I standardized on exactly one
| style of socks that work for me for everything from fitness
| to everyday wear. I have two dozen of them, replace the
| oldest with a new six pack every year. I spend no time
| matching socks. Yes I have one pair of dress socks for when I
| wear a tux + two pairs of thick wool socks for when I am
| doing winter things. Outside of that it's the same Under
| Armor Resistors every day.
| vl wrote:
| Fiestaware from Macy's is exactly what I'm referring to in
| the original post - they changed the design slightly on all
| items few years ago and now plates don't match! We still
| use them, of course, but it's funny that this was the core
| proposition why we used this brand and they compromised it.
| toast0 wrote:
| If you start with lots of spares, it works for a pretty good
| amount of time.
|
| Let's say your family has 5 full time members and is timely
| at doing dishes. 15 sets of flatware would probably be
| plenty, but sometimes you have extra guests, so start with
| 20-25.
|
| If you lose or break items and get down to 15, and the set is
| no longer available, get rid of what you have and get a new
| set of 20-25.
|
| Don't care also works fine.
| matsemann wrote:
| I've actually taken myself thinking along those lines today.
| Our induction hob broke and no one will service it, so need to
| buy a new one. The one that broke came with the apartment, and
| I've been perfectly happy with it.
|
| But now I have a choice. I can choose the hob myself! But it's
| such a pressure! I'll probably not buy a new one for 5+
| (hopefully 10) years, so it should be good! And not have
| annoying little quirks I'll notice much more when it was me
| making the decision. And what's the best bang for buck? Which
| features do I need? So many choices, and I'd probably be happy
| with whatever. But I've spent the last two evenings becoming an
| expert in induction hobs..
| foobarian wrote:
| My advice, prepare to be disappointed whatever you buy. The
| state of modern appliances is a dismal landscape of bare
| minimum functionality and corner cutting.
|
| We tried to avoid the garbage tide by thinking "you get what
| you pay for" and paid a lot expecting a better outcome. Ha!
| The Miele dishwasher we got didn't last 5 years. Turns out
| the fancy German engineering does not help with reliability
| but with creating overcomplicated designs with more moving
| parts.
|
| The d/w that the Miele replaced was a damaged floor model we
| got for $100 from the orange store. It was so bare the bottom
| had no cover (by design) and all the parts were exposed,
| buttressed by some styrofoam and glued to a unibody plastic
| tub. It literally looked like something out of an injection
| molding machine with a bunch of parts randomly stuck to it.
| And yet it lasted longer than the replacement. We're going
| back to absolute cheapest and expecting to just replace every
| few years and still come out ahead.
| eterm wrote:
| My takeaway from that post is: What happened to svbtle?
|
| It was hot shit here for a little while, but why couldn't it
| really break out like medium and substack did?
| secstate wrote:
| It's still chugging along. I suspect, but do not know, that
| it went the middle road of solid growth with reasonable
| return on investment as opposed to the pop-up monetization
| shit hole that is Medium.
| scotty79 wrote:
| I'm sure there's middle ground. I have my favorite cheapish
| Ikea line of cutlery and scorn any other.
| Loic wrote:
| For the people interested with the link. The blog post "The
| Best" is talking about a silverware set which is good for a
| museum, and only for a museum, it is impossible to eat with it.
| beala wrote:
| There is some research suggesting that maximizers, people who
| insist on only the best, are less happy than satisficers,
| people who stop when they've found something that's good
| enough.[1] Perhaps it has something to do with how maximizers,
| due to their exhaustive research, know all the shortcomings of
| the thing they eventually choose. Anyway, this research is pre-
| replication crisis, so who knows if it has stood up, but I've
| found maximizer/satisficer to be a useful distinction.
|
| 1:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing#In_personality_and...
| switchbak wrote:
| I've found that to be a liberating philosophy. But I also
| have a few areas where I'm quite the opposite: but I'm very
| deliberate in which things I choose to obsess over. I try to
| remind myself to be conscious of the diminishing returns
| there too - and try not to go _full audiophile_.
| zxexz wrote:
| I'm a fan of Moxie Marlinspike's response to that post, "The
| Worst"[0].
|
| [0] https://moxie.org/2012/11/27/the-worst.html
| capitainenemo wrote:
| I was curious about the "Gator Piss" treatment in the article so
| I searched for it on a knife forum where someone shared a label:
| https://www.knifedogs.com/threads/gator-piss.54340/
|
| "Contains: Iron TriChloride (FeCh), Iron DiChloride (FeCh),
| Hydrochloric Acid"
|
| Plus a long list of warnings. Apparently it's for etching
| damascus steel.
| last_one_in wrote:
| Great article! I'm a dev turned blacksmith, currently getting
| back into bladesmithing. Working on my perfect kitchen knife.
| Here's my first attempt (San mai, mild steel with recycled spring
| steel edge) :
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ukblade_blacksmiths/comments/1g5v6s...
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| It's a bit of a nitpick, but I hate the term "Damascus steel"
| used in this context. This is pattern-welded steel, which was
| first called Damascus by Bill Moran in 1973. It offers few (if
| any) benefits that a solid billet of a single high-quality steel
| wouldn't, and it offers none that the original Damascus was said
| to have.
|
| Damascus steel was originally a crucible wootz steel that came
| from India or Iran and was sold to Europe through Damascus. The
| alternating colors came from the grain structure of the steel,
| not from different steel types layered together. As far as I am
| aware, we still do not know the exact process used to create it,
| although we have come close, and it's likely that modern CPM
| (Crucible Particulate Metallurgy) steels surpass it due to more
| consistent measurements for the components of the alloy.
|
| I am only an amateur blacksmith, but I have spent the last 15
| years dreaming and researching to prepare myself. Given that I
| live in an apartment, I am limited to a small mobile forge that I
| can wheel out to the complex's grill area where I am actually
| allowed to have a fire, which limits the projects I can do due to
| the forge size and temperature. Crucible steel is a dream one
| day, but for now I just nitpick and try to tell people about the
| original Damascus, which is (in my opinion) much more fascinating
| than what gets the label today.
| eric-hu wrote:
| How did you get into amateur blacksmithing? How much did it
| cost you to get started? Who do you make tools for?
|
| Pardon all the questions but it's a topic I've been curious
| about.
| greggsy wrote:
| You'll probably find that there is a forge near where you
| live that does one- or two-day courses on blade smithing.
| It's a pretty good birthday gift.
|
| Watch any episode of Forged In Fire to get a feel for what's
| involved from a hobbyists perspective. The second half of
| each episode follows the finalists' progress on the challenge
| in their own workshops - some have full-blown black smithing
| businesses, but others are (literally) backyard operations.
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| I took a class hosted by a group affiliated with my local
| renfest, which kind of kickstarted me to actually follow up
| on all the research I did. Having experienced instructors
| helped with the beginning learning curve, plus they pointed
| out early pitfalls to avoid (like gripping the hammer too
| tight). While useful, you definitely don't need to take a
| class to get started. There's dozens of tutorials on making a
| basic forge on Youtube - either coal-burning or propane - and
| you can get started with something as basic as a sledgehammer
| head for your anvil. Even a Harbor Freight cast iron anvil is
| enough for a beginner, although they're more likely to crack.
|
| My starting costs were reduced by gifts, and my dad giving me
| an anvil he made with a piece of railroad several years ago.
| A basic gas forge from Vevor is around $75, but you can make
| your own small one from a coffee can, some refractory wool,
| and a handheld propane torch.
|
| Right now, I just make tools and trinkets for myself. I'm
| _very_ amateur at the moment, I have more theoretical
| knowledge than practical experience. Once I get comfortable,
| I'll make more trinkets and tools for friends and family,
| then maybe one day make things to sell.
| greggsy wrote:
| One of my own pet peeves in Forged In Fire was that every
| contestant would submit Damascus (-style) blades for their
| final showdowns. It just wasn't necessary and often just looked
| trashy.
|
| As a secondary nitpick, the term is perfectly acceptable for
| the process commonly used today. As you've already mentioned -
| the original process has been lost to time, so no one actually
| makes it.
| mmcdermott wrote:
| > One of my own pet peeves in Forged In Fire was that every
| contestant would submit Damascus (-style) blades for their
| final showdowns. It just wasn't necessary and often just
| looked trashy.
|
| Agreed. There was a much smaller emphasis on Damascus steel
| in early seasons. If you go back and rewatch you can see the
| frequency pick up as they praised and required Damascus more
| and more.
| metalman wrote:
| Laminate welding is easy. Keep everything clean, wire brush, use
| flux, certain types of sand, borax or store bought never push
| past a welding heat.....either way. Oh and even if the boss says
| you can use anything you find out back, he does not actualy mean
| anything, a horse shoe, fine, AND the coil spring for his car,not
| so much. Just came across that knife the other day. Made a bit of
| chain on the anvil I mostly fire weld for the look, as the tapers
| are impossible to get any other way. If you want a related
| subject, then fire brazing ox bells has as much lore and mystery
| as knives, way, way more skill required, but again uses the
| simplest of materials.
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