[HN Gopher] Kowloon Walled City: Heterotopia in a Space of Disap...
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Kowloon Walled City: Heterotopia in a Space of Disappearance (2013)
Author : hyperific
Score : 156 points
Date : 2024-12-15 20:30 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (mascontext.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (mascontext.com)
| jeyoor wrote:
| There are Heterotopias in the US too. Some of the border regions
| in Southwest Texas intermittently occupied by cartels or
| smugglers come to mind.
| tonijn wrote:
| The pictures give you a Blade Runner feel
| lelandfe wrote:
| Kowloon Walled City is a classic, almost trope-y, touchstone
| for cyberpunk aesthetics.
| cess11 wrote:
| And rock music aesthetics.
|
| https://theperpetualmotionmachine.bandcamp.com/album/gamblin.
| ..
| out_of_protocol wrote:
| It's other way around - most of Cyberpunk aesthetic heavily
| inspired by Kowloon
| ForHackernews wrote:
| If you're interested in Kowloon, check out
| https://cityofdarkness.co.uk/
| crabl wrote:
| I feel like Kowloon is a decent metaphor for software design at
| most typical large SaaS companies: small changes accreted over
| time that lead to an impenetrable, wandering structure that only
| the residents (developers) truly understand.
| seanw265 wrote:
| It's a fascinating comparison--I've seen this happen at
| companies too. Makes you wonder if imposing something akin to
| building codes for software development could prevent this kind
| of sprawling complexity.
| yungporko wrote:
| i've never seen coding standards properly enforced on any
| large project, nobody has time to read through and scrutinize
| 30 files of code every time somebody creates a new feature
| when everybody has their own work to be doing too. at my last
| job we had mandatory code reviews and some days half of the
| entire day was just doing that. it didn't long before reading
| turned into skimming and skimming just turned into clicking
| approve.
| Groxx wrote:
| Sadly I have to agree. It has to be mechanically enforced
| or it doesn't actually last, even with good intentions. (Or
| a BDFL, but those have scaling limits and Life(tm) stuff)
|
| Which is a shame because I'm pretty convinced that slowing
| down and having time to do those reviews is net-good in the
| (not-very-)long run. Much of the space (and bugs) in even a
| very well run large project are from accumulating gaps
| until nobody knows how things truly work - it takes time to
| eliminate them and end up in a simpler, smaller, more
| sustainable state.
| seanw265 wrote:
| I was thinking less about self-imposed code reviews and
| more about regulatory frameworks--principles borrowed from
| architecture and construction, like mandated documentation,
| reviews, and inspections.
|
| There's some precedent for this: software in medical
| devices face strict regulations after incidents like
| Therac-25.
|
| While most software might not carry the same life-or-death
| risks, data breaches are increasing in frequency and
| impact. We should at least be thinking about how we can
| improve our processes as an industry.
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| Business moves faster than clean software architecture.
|
| If there was 'code', arguably, nothing would be built in the
| first place.
| DoughnutHole wrote:
| Other industries innovate despite having to follow codes
| and industry standards. They just innovate slower.
|
| Engineering standards are built on piles of corpses. We're
| lucky that most of the growth of our industry has been in
| non-life-critical areas.
|
| But regulation and standards are coming eventually - shoddy
| code will just have to kill a few thousand people first.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| The problem isn't that we fail to apply the same rules
| for software development in safety-critical and non-
| safety-critical contexts. The problem is that we _do_
| apply the same software in both contexts.
|
| Gatekeeping the entire industry isn't the answer unless
| you want to cripple it... but if someone wanted to issue
| regulations along the lines of "Don't steer your nuclear-
| powered aircraft carrier with a Windows app," I wouldn't
| object to that.
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| Better Windows 95 than JavaScript
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Yes, it certainly would have prevented a lot of things,
| including the creation of the OS and software you used to
| suggest it.
| tokioyoyo wrote:
| Is this a reference to the "I divorced my wife and this is what
| it taught me about B2B sales" joke?
| duxup wrote:
| I feel like like that recently. Just examining an app that was
| largely written in isolation and ... I just discovered a new
| auth endpoint / service that nobody knew we had, and it does
| not behave logically. It has all sorts of limits that impedes
| testing / troubleshooting.
|
| Pain ...
|
| For the record I am going to eventually direct this app to the
| "normal" auth service and fix it all up, but man why is it this
| way???
| thefourthchime wrote:
| "We build our computers the way we build our cities -- over
| time, without a plan, on top of ruins."
|
| -- Ellen Ullman, Life in Code: A Personal History of Technology
| eagerpace wrote:
| I think this applies to anything that is created over more than
| a single generation. Basically anything the government touches
| eventually goes this way too.
| aaroninsf wrote:
| Maybe... that's why I've been fascinated by it. :|
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Nicholas Negroponte's The Architecture Machine goes deep into
| analogizing software and housing along the dimension of
| "improvised / iterated on by the users" to "waterfall designed
| by committee"
|
| (free with archive account, fascinating book, dedicated to "the
| first machine that can appreciate the gesture" https://archive.
| org/details/architecturemach00negr/page/n15/...)
| zabzonk wrote:
| William Gibson, Idoru. Heroine Chia Pet ends up (after some
| adventures, in cyberspace and meat) with place in the walled
| city. It's a good book.
| zzzeek wrote:
| sorta mind blowing to look at what's there now
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City_Park#/medi...
| jansan wrote:
| A bit unrelated, but since people with Hong Kong knowledge may be
| reading: How are the Chungking Mansions doing? The atmosphere
| there was sometimes compared to Kowloon Walled City, and I
| remember when my roommate stayed there in the 90s he reported
| that from his window that faced the inner courtyard he could not
| see the ground, just darkness. Also, it was reported to have rats
| as big as cats and cockroaches as big as rats (I hope jokingly).
|
| How is it doing now? Still as dystopian?
| notpushkin wrote:
| I've stayed there about half a year ago. [0] Pretty interesting
| place, although not nearly as dystopian as you describe it! No
| cockroaches or anything, but ground level is very noisy, and
| elevator queues are pretty bad.
|
| [0]: If you want to give it a try, open up any hotel booking
| website and sort by price - pretty much anything under $25 is
| in the Mansions.
| dagenleg wrote:
| A few months ago I had a long layover in Hong Kong, so I did a
| quick visit - it looked a bit emptyish, though there was still
| a bunch of budget hostels, food joints and some touting going
| on. The rats are pretty gigantic though.
| bcsab1 wrote:
| I have stayed there for 2 weeks last month. It is indeed a
| distinctive experience. I managed to rent the smallest
| apartment I have ever been to. When I entered the room I burst
| out laughing at its size. There was basically nothing but a
| small bed and a toilet/bathroom where you could have showering
| while sitting on a toilet. It was definitely a memorable
| feeling to stay there. Every time you enter the building many
| (mainly Indian looking) man approach and try to sell you drugs,
| stolen stuff or prostitutes. I wandered quite a bit around
| because you always had to wait a lot for the elevator so I used
| the stairs to go to the 8th floor. There was piss and trash all
| over the stairs. At first day I was really close to changing my
| location but I eventually got used to the place. I have
| witnessed at least 3 fights during the 2 weeks staying there.
| On the last morning at 6 am when I arrived to the first floor
| after checking out I heard loud noises and when the elevator
| opened two guys fell inside fighting each other, accompanied by
| several woman shouting. I managed to step over them out of the
| elevator and left the building safely. It was chaotic to be
| honest. But at least I saw no bugs and rats. Overall I think it
| might have some resemblance to how it must have felt staying in
| the Walled City.
| stormfather wrote:
| What brought you there?
| dewey wrote:
| I've visited it earlier this year and it seems pretty unchanged
| ("cheap watches", "need tailor",...). I've stayed in one of the
| budget hostels there a few years ago, its was interesting but
| I'd probably not do it again. Waiting 15 minutes for one of the
| cramped elevators every time you go home gets old quickly.
| dabreegster wrote:
| I stayed there about a year ago, and wrote a bit about it with
| some photos. Just search this page for "Chungking":
| https://dabreegster.github.io/prose/dec2023/pt1_hk.html
| jansan wrote:
| Great photos, thanks. The one with the "negative space" must
| be what my roommate talked about when he could not see the
| ground from his room window during the day. Btw, back in the
| 90s they still had some market alleys in Akihabara/Tokyo that
| looked like the one in the next photo. And it was amazing.
| Kydlaw wrote:
| I am adding a blog post, shared on HN a couple months ago, that
| show an architectural cross section of the city.
|
| https://cohost.org/belarius/post/6677850-architectural-cross
|
| (I am not the author of the blog, nor the original poster, but I
| just want to share the link because I found this incredibly cool)
| CapmCrackaWaka wrote:
| Wow, coolest thing I've seen while doom scrolling this week. I
| wonder how accurate that is. It must be an especially dense
| cross section, because it doesn't leave much room for hallways
| or other non living space.
|
| Also was hoping to see more of the structural elements... that
| drawing really makes it feel like the entire thing is made of
| cardboard, hopes and dreams.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> that drawing really makes it feel like the entire thing is
| made of cardboard, hopes and dreams._
|
| In the same way that corrugation gives strength to cardboard,
| it's possible that the city could have been so dense that it
| may have been relatively resistant to collapsing.
| MisterTea wrote:
| That drawing is from a Japanese book on the subject. I bought
| it a while ago and although expensive, gave a really good
| glimpse into life in Kowloon. edit: should add a link to said
| book :https://www.amazon.com/Kowloon-large-illustrated-
| ISBN-400008...
| gainda wrote:
| I got this a while back & I think its worth it if you're
| interested in the subject. The book itself is large!
| Loughla wrote:
| Is there that but in English?
| maeln wrote:
| Very very sad about cohost closing btw. It was really the only
| "post twitter acquisition" social network that spoke to me. It
| felt very late 2000' in the best ways.
| dingnuts wrote:
| well, they "hate the software industry" so it can't be too
| surprising that they ran out of money. If you're allergic to
| revenue you can only last as long as the charity lasts.
|
| I understand why people are unhappy with the tech industry
| and industry more generally but until the revolutionaries
| accept that their ventures have to create enough value to
| self sustain they will continue to be defeated by traditional
| companies
| deadbabe wrote:
| Anyone found anything cool in there? I saw someone holding a
| rifle, aimed at another person's back as they crouched down in
| fear.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Kowloon Walled City was very neat. If you want to get a feel for
| what it was like, there's a German language documentary from 1988
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9PZ05NLDww) that was filmed
| inside of it. This essay, however is pompous word salad of the
| worst type.
| jengjenghk wrote:
| > What remains unclear is why there was such little protest over
| its demolition
|
| Why would there be? This seems like one of those "people living
| in squalor is their right!" statements by people on the outside
| that want to visit a human zoo. I suspect no one that was living
| there would choose to go back if it still existed. My friends
| from there certainly don't. They might have a few fond memories
| but so do war veterans.
| rkozik1989 wrote:
| That's actually not true at all. According to interviews a lot
| of people actually miss it. I believe it was a German
| documentary that I first heard it in. I'm kind of obsessed with
| this place and even created a game around the premise of a
| walled city.
| 15155 wrote:
| Stray?
| Macha wrote:
| Certainly I've heard the same from a coworker reporting on
| her grandmother's perspective (her grandmother lived there in
| the 60s/70s).
|
| At the same time, the grandmother did leave when she could,
| long before the final demolition, despite her later views on
| that time.
| Loughla wrote:
| Metro but set in Kowloon would be shockingly good to play.
| brazzy wrote:
| Some people actually refused to move out and had to be evicted.
|
| People form emotional attachment to their home, even if the
| living conditions are bad.
| duxup wrote:
| Especially if they are older. I'm in a suburban / rural
| border area and there are lots of older folks who just want
| to spend their days at home. But the area is changing, people
| around them are selling and that means change.
|
| The interesting dynamic is that most have enough land to sell
| for a very pretty penny and they could build a great place
| further out, far better than they have now, but rather they
| value the comfort and familiarity of home, and I get that
| too.
| immibis wrote:
| There must have been reasons why those people chose to live
| there. They must have felt it was their best option. If they
| were mistaken then they should be provided with more
| information until they are not mistaken. If they were not
| mistaken then the government barged in and removed these
| people's best living option because the government felt it was
| ugly. That's not very good.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > There must have been reasons why those people chose to live
| there
|
| Undocumented status.
|
| HK was not part of the PRC until 1997, and even today you
| require authorization to live there.
|
| Back before reunification, lots of undocumented Chinese
| nationals would sneak across the fence in the New Territories
| and then live in the Walled City as it was technically still
| Chinese territory that was not absorbed by the British during
| the 99 year lease.
| steveoscaro wrote:
| Anyone remotely interested in Hong Kong should read the novel
| Tai-Pan. That's some great historical fiction. No idea which
| parts are accurate, but it's a fun read.
| dewey wrote:
| I finished the sequel of that book
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_House_(novel)) this year,
| can also highly recommend it. The TV show looks cheap...but it
| actually aged really well and it has Pierce Brosnan
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_House_(miniseries)). Can
| recommend it as well!
| FireBeyond wrote:
| FX made what I thought was a pretty good adaptation of
| Shogun. Am hoping they might turn their eyes to the rest of
| the "series", too.
| finnh wrote:
| The recent Shogun series was surprisingly good, I really
| enjoyed it.
|
| Clavell famously has no idea how to end a book - they
| pretty much _all_ have a deus ex machina in the form of a
| natural disaster - but they are excellent & fun reads of
| the days & weeks leading up to it.
|
| ayeeya, cow chillo
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Hah, yes! I just realized this! (Well, Whirlwind uses a
| revolution). I'd never connected that between all the
| books.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Nice book on Kowloon with plenty of pictures:
| https://archive.org/details/city-of-darkness-life-in-kowloon...
| dewey wrote:
| I can understand why people are getting angry at the Internet
| Archive if they are offering one click downloads of books you
| can still buy on the (independent) artists website:
| https://cityofdarkness.co.uk/order-book/
|
| Saying that as a donor to the Internet Archive as I support
| their "public web archiving" goal. This misleading "opensource"
| collection is full of software, books that are neither open
| source nor out of copyright:
| https://archive.org/details/opensource and their reporting tool
| doesn't even include "copyright infringement" as a reason.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| "This is the cleaned up version of the original scan, both
| found in TPB" you ain't kidding!
| Lio wrote:
| Sorry, just to repeat, Kowloon != Kowloon Walled City.
|
| Kowloon itself is home to 2 million people and is a much larger
| geographical area. Walled City was strictly an enclave area
| around an old Chinese fort within Kowloon proper.
|
| A comparison might be referring to Washington Square Park,
| Manhattan, New York City as simply "Manhattan".
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon
|
| 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City
| fedeb95 wrote:
| Looks like that component that somehow works and nobody dares
| touch it.
| initramfs wrote:
| fascinating. It represents every failed public housing project in
| the U.S. as well, like the one in
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi#Filming and in NYC
| kibwen wrote:
| I don't see much similarity. The KWC was an anarchic self-
| assembling place; that's about as libertarian as it gets.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Unbelievable that the place wasn't consumed by fire at some
| point.
| MisterTea wrote:
| It burnt down in its early days when it was a shack town,
| before the cluster of multistory buildings were erected.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| I wish the people romanticizing or fetishizing Kowloon Walled
| City could have been forced to live there.
|
| They remind me of the urban planners of the 50s and 60s who
| designed dense barren concrete monstrosities for the proles to
| live in as part of various urban renewal projects, from the
| comfort of their suburban garden estates.
| mrbungie wrote:
| Are people really romanticizing it out there?
|
| I find it really draws my attention in a morbid sense
| associated to looking at what was a very alien way of living,
| but I would hate to live in those conditions.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| People aren't romanticizing it in a positive way, they are
| mostly fascinated by the bleakness of it- and shocked that
| something they thought was relegated to fiction actually
| existed in real life. Much of HN grew up as nerdy kids on
| cyberpunk SciFi like Blade Runner, Johnny Mnemonic, and the
| Matrix and this looks exactly like that, which is no
| coincidence, because that aesthetic was largely based on
| Kowloon Walled City itself, unknowingly to the people consuming
| it.
|
| The cyberpunk author William Gibson was aware of and inspired
| by Kowloon Walled City. Cyberpunk is characterized by "high
| tech low life" - it is seen as awful and dehumanizing,
| something people might want to read a book or watch a movie
| about, but not live themselves.
|
| In hindsight, the whole Cyberpunk aesthetic being based on real
| world inhumane living conditions that actually already existed
| might be inappropriate by modern standards. It is making an
| amusing fantasy or spectacle out of other peoples suffering-
| however Gibson, etc. were using this setting mostly because
| they had a negative view about the impacts of technology on
| humanity, and were writing fiction to express and warn people
| about these concerns.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I wish the people romanticizing or fetishizing Kowloon Walled
| City could have been forced to live there.
|
| In 1987, I would have found KWC a step up from my homelessness.
|
| > They remind me of the urban planners of the 50s and 60s who
| designed dense barren concrete monstrosities
|
| US 2021: People were forced out of long-term rentals and found
| there was nowhere to go. People with money in the bank became
| homeless. Concrete monstrosities would have improved their poor
| options.
|
| Before eliminating an awful thing, we might want to eliminate
| the need for it.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| My first awareness of KWC was reading one of the SPCs,
| apparently this one.
|
| https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-184
| zqfm wrote:
| KWC is a pretty fascinating place, but all I've ever seen about
| it is from people on the outside looking in. Are there any
| accounts from the people who lived there?
| dimator wrote:
| A few interviews in this video
|
| https://youtu.be/g1wSj9X2igA?feature=shared
| mark_h wrote:
| There's this Reddit AMA from a while back:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/13muo9/i_grew_up_in_t...
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| I think this title might be just a little on the pretentious
| side.
| Loughla wrote:
| I never understood why it's called a walled city. It doesn't have
| walls protecting it.
| bentpins wrote:
| Before it was a settlement it was a military base. It did have
| walls protecting until 1940, where under WW2 Japanese
| occupation they were demolished. The name stuck even after. The
| south gate of the wall remains as part of Kowloon Walled City
| Park
|
| You can see an illustration of the wall in the infographic here
| http://archive.today/2omPT
| PaulHoule wrote:
| "the communist reforms from the late 1950s to the mid 1970s" is a
| little generous; for better and for worse the article seems very
| aligned to the politics of the current leadership of the "New
| China"
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