[HN Gopher] Android XR
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Android XR
        
       Author : dagmx
       Score  : 220 points
       Date   : 2024-12-12 16:26 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.google)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.google)
        
       | dagmx wrote:
       | And the verge blog post about it.
       | 
       | https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/12/24319528/google-android-...
       | 
       | Seems like a very similar direction to visionOS. I'm glad Apple
       | normalized the ability to run mobile apps spatially.
       | 
       | I do wonder how this affects Meta's plans for horizonOS. Are
       | access to Meta's game library more important than access to
       | androids ecosystem.
        
         | world2vec wrote:
         | That Verge article has at least a rendering of some VR/AR/XR
         | headset, original post doesn't show or talk about any hardware.
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | > Seems like a very similar direction to visionOS.
         | 
         | A crucial difference is that Android XR apparently has first-
         | class support for 6DoF controllers (like Horizon OS) in
         | addition to eye and hand tracking (like Vision OS) so it's
         | aiming to compete on both fronts. Google thankfully didn't
         | cargo-cult Apples decision to rely on eye and hand tracking,
         | which is far from ideal for VR games.
        
           | dagmx wrote:
           | I think Apple picked the right direction to launch with as
           | their primary interaction method.
           | 
           | Controllers would be nice but as a secondary input.
           | 
           | Google are apparently not mandating eye tracking or hand
           | tracking. Which is nice for flexibility but you're going to
           | have a mishmash of interaction models for native apps.
        
             | MBCook wrote:
             | There is a recent rumor that they have been working with
             | Sony to bring the PSVR 2 controllers to work on visionOS.
             | 
             | Given Apple has not focused on gaming I think the decision
             | they made was a good one too. You shouldn't NEED special
             | controllers to use the device like early VR headsets.
             | 
             | However there are definitely things that would work better
             | with controllers. Not just gaming but things where you need
             | very fine input or having multiple buttons to switch modes
             | or something would be good.
             | 
             | So I hope the rumor turns out to be true.
        
           | cube2222 wrote:
           | Fwiw HorizonOS does support hand tracking (at least in the
           | Quest 3 which I have) and you can navigate the UI without
           | controllers. It works quite well.
           | 
           | The Quest Pro also supports eye tracking, though not sure how
           | well-integrated that is into the experience. I believe it's
           | used to achieve foveated rendering with steam link, though.
        
             | wkat4242 wrote:
             | > (at least in the Quest 3 which I have)
             | 
             | Yup and the Quest 2 and even the Quest 1 got it too! Though
             | the Quest 1 is a bit behind the latest improvements though
             | since it no longer receives OS updates.
             | 
             | I have some of all 3 models :)
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | But Apple's approach is fantastic for everything else.
           | 
           | As it allows you to use the device without having to move
           | your arms around.
        
         | klausa wrote:
         | I can't get over how much that Samsung headset is just "sure
         | yeah copy my homework, just change a couple of things" version
         | of Vision Pro.
        
           | cubefox wrote:
           | > Project Moohan felt like a mix between a Meta Quest 3 and
           | Vision Pro headset.
           | 
           | > In the Moohan headset, I can say, "Take me to JYP
           | Entertainment in Seoul," and it will automatically open
           | Google Maps and show me that building. If my windows get
           | cluttered, I can ask it to reorganize them. I don't have to
           | lift a finger. While wearing the prototype glasses, I watch
           | and listen as Gemini summarizes a long, rambling text message
           | to the main point: can you buy lemon, ginger, and olive oil
           | from the store? I was able to naturally switch from speaking
           | in English to asking in Japanese what the weather is in New
           | York -- and get the answer in spoken and written Japanese.
        
           | freedomben wrote:
           | To be fair, a lot of the Vision Pro is a copy of all the
           | AR/VR things that came before it. Even the eye tracking and
           | gesture tracking is/was not new by any extent when Apple
           | implemented it. That's kind of how these things work (whether
           | it should or not is a different discussion). There's very
           | little actual innovation because innovation is risky, and the
           | bigger the company the less real appetite there is for risk
           | because that's how executives get fired. The direction flows
           | down from there. Most engineers at these companies who have
           | good ideas and really want to innovate have to (and often
           | want to) leave and do their own startup. These big companies
           | are quite happy to let the startups do the innovating and
           | take all the risk, and then just buying them out or ripping
           | them off once there's a demonstration that there's a market.
           | With increased regulatory scrutiny, the latter seems to be
           | getting more common, but that's also a different discussion.
           | 
           | Also relevant, queue the spiderman pointing at spiderman
           | meme.
        
             | philistine wrote:
             | So the crappy face in the front, the pods for the sound,
             | the dedicated chip for all the AR functions, and the
             | separation of battery and headset are copies of everybody
             | else?
             | 
             | I do agree that the biggest innovation comes from the
             | software, but come on.
        
               | freedomben wrote:
               | > _So the crappy face in the front, the pods for the
               | sound, the dedicated chip for all the AR functions, and
               | the separation of battery and headset are copies of
               | everybody else?_
               | 
               | Do you really consider those things innovations? I mean,
               | the whole transparent eye thing is new for a production
               | product like AVP, but still a pretty old idea. Maybe it
               | originally came from Apple, I don't know. But dedicated
               | chip for AR is definitely NOT a new idea nor innovative,
               | nor is separation of battery and headset. It's definitely
               | a lot more polished with those things than anything
               | that's been built before, but polish != innovation
        
               | dagmx wrote:
               | It's very convenient that anything newly brought to
               | market is not an innovation because it was presented as a
               | concept somehwere but anything that isn't new is simply a
               | copy.
               | 
               | There's no room in that kind of discussion space to talk
               | about the actual details of implementation or anything
               | with nuance that differentiates products.
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | Its amazing how much undeserved credit Apple gets...
         | 
         | The article just shows web pages, something that has been in XR
         | headsets for long before VisionOS and in much greater numbers
         | in the Quest to boot.
         | 
         | So what has been normalized? Who is buzzing about VisionOS
         | apps?
        
           | dagmx wrote:
           | Perhaps you could actually read my sentence and say that it
           | allows running Android apps natively as a first class
           | citizen. Which is also part of the linked press release.
           | 
           | That they showed it with just Chrome is a presentation issue
           | on their part, but it's definitely a value add when you're
           | not constrained to the limited subset of the apps for a
           | fledgling platform.
        
             | jayd16 wrote:
             | The meta headsets actually do run Android apps. The main
             | issue is every major app uses Google Play Services.
             | 
             | It's true that Google and Apple are in a unique position to
             | leverage their walled gardens. I'm not sure that needs
             | normalizing.
        
       | marban wrote:
       | I hope we don't see bloggers using it in the shower this time.
        
       | nashashmi wrote:
       | Anyone know of low priced glasses that can extend monitor into
       | virtual displays in VR? So far I see the lenovo VR set able to do
       | this.
        
         | jamespo wrote:
         | https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/12/11/immer...
         | announced very recently
        
           | nashashmi wrote:
           | Yes my research showed that Meta can do this via partnership.
           | And that makes me wonder do others need partnerships as well?
        
             | jayd16 wrote:
             | There are a few remote desktop type apps for the Quest. The
             | partnership is primarily a branding exercise, I would
             | assume.
        
         | verdverm wrote:
         | https://visor.com and https://immersed.com
         | 
         | Immersed works with lots of VR headsets, Visor is their bespoke
         | HW shipping in '25
        
           | Philpax wrote:
           | In theory. In practice, they have failed to demonstrate a
           | single fully functional headset to any external media, and
           | their marketing strategy is borderline predatory ("lock in a
           | better price for your subscription before it's too late!")
           | 
           | I'll believe it when I see it.
        
             | verdverm wrote:
             | The day after the botched demo they had a few of the
             | community members over to their AirBnB for a more hands on
             | demo. Those people have spoken in the discord on their
             | experience
             | 
             | They have been keeping with updates as best they can,
             | production lines are starting up, but they also have large
             | orgs like Qualcomm dictating how much they can share. They
             | are not keen to upset their suppliers
        
       | perdomon wrote:
       | I love the navigation video example. It's so much better than
       | staring down at a cell phone. At the end of the day, however, it
       | all comes down to style (looking at you, Apple Vision Pro).
        
         | makeitdouble wrote:
         | I'd wish for arrows and directive lines overlayed straight at
         | eye level at the actual turning points. Basically video game
         | style.
         | 
         | In the video it's still limited to messages and map pictures in
         | their dedicated box and makes me think the platform still won't
         | be good enough to handle more complex overlaying.
        
         | astrange wrote:
         | For navigation to work in VR, location services have to
         | accurately know where you are and which way you're facing,
         | which they don't. Compasses don't work in most urban situations
         | because there's too much magnetic metal around you. Visual
         | localization does work but the map has to be up to date.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _It 's so much better than staring down at a cell phone._
         | 
         | When the iPhone's App Store came out, there were a bunch of
         | apps that were all about overlaying information on real-time
         | real-world imaging. One of them was navigation where you'd hold
         | your phone up (horizontally) and it would overlay the real
         | world with lines and arrows. I wonder why that never really
         | caught on.
         | 
         | There was another great one that was an SMS app that overlayed
         | your conversations on the camera feed, so you could walk and
         | text at the same time without falling into a mine shaft, or
         | stepping in dog poo, or whatever. With today's technology, that
         | could be just a toggle. Again, for some reason people didn't
         | like it.
        
       | theonlyjesus wrote:
       | I'm so excited about this, but the fact that Google's behind it
       | has me worried. Android XR will be ditched 1-2 years after
       | release
        
         | cubefox wrote:
         | Seems unlikely, only Meta and Apple have a comparable OS. Other
         | manufacturers would have to either build their own thing or use
         | Android XR.
        
           | n144q wrote:
           | Who are the "other manufacturers"?
           | 
           | I don't see many companies interested in this area. Sony has
           | almost given up, Pico has had some major setbacks, and you
           | know what happened to Apple's Vision Pro. There will continue
           | to be investment, but likely by the same big players. There
           | just isn't a lot of money out there, and not many companies
           | can afford this.
           | 
           | Honestly, if Zuckerberg is no longer Meta's boss, they may
           | have already shut down Quest entirely.
        
           | verdverm wrote:
           | I believe Immersed is using Qualcomm Spaces for the Visor,
           | but maybe that is lower level and Android XR builds on that
           | as well?
        
             | verdverm wrote:
             | Looks like it is close to this and Qualcomm has tools to
             | simplify the migration to Android XR
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | Meta licenses their OS to other hardware players just like
           | Google does. Apparently Microsoft, Asus and Lenovo are
           | participating.
        
       | makeitdouble wrote:
       | Google and Samsung going against Meta sounds as much as a cursed
       | alliance than it was with GearVR.
       | 
       | I trust Samsung to execute excellently on the hardware and be
       | ready to iterate, but will Google keep pushing the platform even
       | if Meta also goes after regular android apps and crushes them
       | commercially ?
       | 
       | Now that regulators are on Google's back, Meta getting accesss to
       | the whole Play Store or at least being protected from Google's
       | shenanigans is realistic, and the Meta store could potentially be
       | decently competitive for regular android apps as well if they
       | want to.
        
         | warkdarrior wrote:
         | Let's wait and see if apps will be 30% cheaper on Meta's store.
        
         | Cumpiler69 wrote:
         | Knowing how Google shuts down or forgets about products that
         | don't make them a million billion dollars, I wouldn't invest
         | into Google's XR ecosystem.
         | 
         | Do you remember Google also has an ecosystem for Android
         | Tablets and Wearables? Do _THEY_ remember?
         | 
         | Meta could sink in all that money because Zuck is really into
         | that stuff.
        
           | meibo wrote:
           | What do you mean? They just released new tablet and watch
           | hardware and accompanying OS updates.
        
         | fidotron wrote:
         | I worked on the launches of many Android devices and actually
         | worked on the OOBE of the GearVR, and it was by far the
         | hairiest of them all, including the Nexus 10, where the Google
         | execs made it to like Chicago before accepting that Hurricane
         | Sandy wasn't something imaginary cooked up to mess up their
         | launch.
        
         | fldskfjdslkfj wrote:
         | I'll take Google and Samsung over Meta.
         | 
         | Until Meta stops trying to force me to open an account to view
         | things that should be publicly available i'll never be on board
         | with them gaining more power. Not to mention that I believe
         | their products are a net negative to society.
        
           | n144q wrote:
           | Most Quest users don't care about anything you said, and
           | apparently their devices are selling very well.
        
             | fldskfjdslkfj wrote:
             | "Very well" is subjective - they sold only something like 1
             | million devices, which is way below even Google Pixel phone
             | numbers.
             | 
             | But regardless, i stated my position, not other people's
             | position.
        
         | n144q wrote:
         | Same. I am afraid this won't go even as well as Wear OS watches
         | or Android tablets.
        
         | TiredOfLife wrote:
         | The hilarious thing is that Google already had a VR platform
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream that they
         | abandoned. Meta even offered to put Google Play on their
         | headsets, but Google refused.
        
       | not_your_vase wrote:
       | They botched tablets, they botched smartwatches. I'm sure third
       | time's the charm.
        
         | Andrex wrote:
         | They already botched XR twice by killing Cardboard and
         | Daydream. You're right, third time's _gotta_ be the charm.
        
           | pzo wrote:
           | and from related they also killed: Google Glasses, Project
           | Tango (3d cameras). ARCore also seems pretty much barely
           | alive.
        
         | ddalex wrote:
         | All tablets are dying. The pixel watch 3 has excellent reviews,
         | what's botched about it ?
        
           | BudaDude wrote:
           | > All tablets are dying.
           | 
           | Highly disagree. The iPad line is very strong, especially in
           | the artist community.
        
       | fidotron wrote:
       | Some of the mockups here look eerily like those from Google
       | Glass. Somehow I doubt walking around with head mounted cameras
       | beaming everything to the cloud is suddenly going to become OK,
       | though there is definitely a generational shift on that.
        
       | whatever1 wrote:
       | The similarities with Vision OS are insane.
        
         | verdverm wrote:
         | Considering how little the difference is in phone UIs, one
         | would expect XR UIs to be highly similar as well
        
       | bnchrch wrote:
       | Honestly there's no point in Android XR.
       | 
       | We can't trust Google to maintain even profitable endeavours past
       | a couple years.
       | 
       | And an investment in AR/VR hardware and software is likely over a
       | decade long initiative.
       | 
       | IMO They're already showing there weak amount of determination by
       | making this a partnership out of the gate.
       | 
       | Thats a bag of misaligned incentives, diluted returns and 2x as
       | many execs who could kill the project.
        
         | herval wrote:
         | this is getting downvoted, but it's not a bad take. Google has
         | proven, over and over, that it's unable to execute on any long
         | running initiative like this - including 3 past botched XR
         | initiatives
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | Endeavors like this have failed before, but at some point (soon
       | would be my guess) the utility of having an AI assistant with
       | vision capability will just be too useful to resist putting an
       | always available camera in glasses.
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | I'm not sure I trust Google enough to walk around my home
         | wearing their cameras. The last thing I want to see are ads
         | based on the contents of my home or specific details of my
         | family.
         | 
         | The police might like it though. They could find out from
         | Google the layout of a home or see if they know of any guns in
         | a home before they SWAT it.
        
           | LordDragonfang wrote:
           | But (odds are) you trust them enough to walk around your home
           | wearing their microphone. Letting them listen in on all your
           | conversations and show you ads based on those, if the
           | conspiracy theories are true. (Unless if you're an iPhone
           | user, then you trust Apple - and make no mistake, they're
           | building the exact same product, they just pathologically
           | avoid talking about prototypes)
           | 
           | It's boiling the frog. Unthinkable, until everybody is doing
           | it and it's normal.
        
             | acdha wrote:
             | The number of people buying Apple devices for privacy
             | suggests that quite a few people do not trust them, and
             | while the rumors have flown around for years they've never
             | been confirmed. That's a contrast with, say, smart TV
             | content recognition so it seems unlikely that Android
             | phones are secretly monitoring what you say without anyone
             | noticing the data being transmitted or the battery drain.
        
               | elcritch wrote:
               | > so it seems unlikely that Android phones are secretly
               | monitoring what you say without anyone noticing the data
               | being transmitted or the battery drain.
               | 
               | Ah! So that's why Androids always have bigger batteries
               | than iPhones. ;)
        
               | acdha wrote:
               | I get the joke but it actually works the other way: since
               | Android devices had a 2-5 year lag behind Apple for CPU
               | performance it would be harder to hide some hypothetical
               | always-on analysis, especially on the cheaper and slower
               | devices where most of the global growth had been.
        
             | sroussey wrote:
             | The conspiracy theories of phones listening is not true.
             | 
             | TVs absolutely do that however, and it's the first thing to
             | disable in settings for a smart tv. I even block the TV
             | from internet since I use an Apple TV for the streaming.
        
               | LorenDB wrote:
               | I used to agree with you, but unfortunately the
               | conspiracy _is_ true (or at least was at one point):
               | 
               | https://www.pcworld.com/article/2450052/do-smartphones-
               | liste...
        
               | acdha wrote:
               | The source of that article is very clear that the device
               | types are not known:
               | 
               | https://www.404media.co/heres-the-pitch-deck-for-active-
               | list...
               | 
               | Given that this a slide deck for a cable company's
               | advertising arm, it would be entirely plausible that this
               | data comes from the hardware they give customers which is
               | completely customized for their needs. If they were using
               | phone apps, for example, we'd see people asking why the
               | Cox cable app is using their iPhone's microphone.
        
           | bsimpson wrote:
           | I asked someone who had done high level work at TikTok what
           | he thought of the CCP conspiracy theories driving the
           | Trump/Biden ban pushes. He said something to the effect of
           | "ByteDance isn't coordinated enough to pull off being that
           | evil."
           | 
           | Google has been incomprehensibly big for decades at this
           | point. They know regulators are watching. Mistakes like the
           | SSID logging controversy in Germany get interpreted as
           | malice, and company-wide trainings go out drilling into
           | people not to log more than they have a contemporaneous
           | business reason for.
           | 
           | If there's anyone I trust to be honest and upfront about what
           | data they're collecting and how it might be used, it's
           | Google. They have the experience, motivation, and resources
           | to do it right.
           | 
           | Companies with a lower pedigree - either from countries that
           | don't take individual rights seriously, or from small teams
           | that don't have the resources to cover all their bases - are
           | the ones that give me pause.
        
             | criddell wrote:
             | What does your contact at ByteDance think the CCP staff
             | does in the ByteDance offices all day? Why does the CCP
             | need a board seat?
             | 
             | These companies are coordinated enough to keep out mentions
             | of Tiananmen Square or Xi as Poo from Chinese users. If
             | they can drop politically sensitive content in particular
             | regions, they can boost political content in other regions,
             | right? Whether or not they actually try to put their thumb
             | on the scale today doesn't really matter. That's the nature
             | of a security risk.
             | 
             | The Conversation had a pretty good article earlier this
             | year on how (in some ways) there's no real separation
             | between the government and companies in China.
             | 
             | https://theconversation.com/is-tiktoks-parent-company-an-
             | age...
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | I thought I would bother me with meta, but it doesn't really.
           | I leave my sex toys out and I really just don't care if it
           | sees them :P
           | 
           | I think personal conversations are much more revealing than
           | the space of my home. But as I live alone I would never speak
           | to anyone while I use the quest.
        
         | tootie wrote:
         | I genuinely don't think this will ever be useful. UIs based on
         | voice and gesture are not precise enough Even if they capture
         | words accurately, it's just not as expressive or precise as tap
         | or click. Most people don't want to talk to their devices out
         | loud in public. There's precious few use cases where I want
         | data to be in front of what I'm trying to look at. We've been
         | trying for so very long and nothing has stuck. The last coup in
         | AR was Pokemon Go. We've had a Meta Quest for years and it's
         | primary use is still Beat Saber. It just isn't going to happen.
        
           | Scene_Cast2 wrote:
           | Eye tracking adds that precision.
        
             | wkat4242 wrote:
             | I kinda doubt that. I think Apple is on the wrong track
             | there. Maybe for now it makes sense but I don't think it
             | will stay as the tech improves. It's pretty annoying having
             | to look at everything you interact with. It's unnatural.
             | Also, typing by looking at each individual key will be
             | exhausting and slow.
             | 
             | Gesture tracking on the quest is very hit and miss but this
             | is just due to the tech not being up to snuff yet. I think
             | eventually you will just be able to type on a virtual
             | keyboard. You can even do it now, it's just that the
             | forward/backward tracking is pretty inaccurate still (it's
             | pretty much the worst usecase because your fingers are not
             | well visible to the headset cameras and moving
             | forward/backwards which is also the most difficult to
             | interpret. But I think this will get solved.
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | > We've had a Meta Quest for years and it's primary use is
           | still Beat Saber. It just isn't going to happen.
           | 
           | Try Metro Awakening. It's a really "full game" story-driven
           | experience, I'm surprised they managed to get so much out of
           | a mobile processor. Even on my old Quest 2 it runs
           | impressively well.
           | 
           | I personally don't like the arcade style gameplay (eg beat
           | saber) at all so I mostly play PCVR but it's really nice to
           | see some real full games are making it to the platform now.
        
       | contrarian1234 wrote:
       | Is it going to be open like Android or closed like Google Play?
       | They seem to be evasive about licensing
       | 
       | I also don't quite get why AI needs to be on the OS level (AI
       | seems to make more sense on an app level) and what connection it
       | has to XR. They're also very vague about what tangible OS
       | integration they're planning. Sounds like a buzzword soup. They
       | just forgot decentralized crytocurrencies
        
         | freedomben wrote:
         | I suspect we agree, but to try to steelman here there is a
         | signficant and increasing need for hardware to support on-
         | device AI, and anytime you're talking hardware there has to be
         | a baseline level of support in the OS.
         | 
         | My guess though is that they are doing it because it's easier
         | to just move AI stuff to the OS than have to do the hard work
         | of modularizing and isolating, defining APIs and such. Also
         | worth remembering that many of the Android decision makers
         | don't seem to actually like Android and want to make it more
         | like their iPhones. Android seems determined to erase (or bury
         | to the point of impracticality) all the things that I
         | originally loved about it. It's getting more and more closed
         | and "the user is a security threat" with every release. I would
         | guess that somebody is loving the amount of power and control
         | that they can gain by doing it this way, and as long as the
         | people continue to reward behavior like that we're going to get
         | more of it. The iPhone being a textbook example.
        
         | tredre3 wrote:
         | It has essentially nothing to do with AI, they seem to have
         | thrown that in for bonus PR points. Sure, ML is plenty involved
         | behind the scenes for both actual use cases (AR and VR) but
         | it's not relevant and not what people think of when they read
         | AI.
         | 
         | Reading the dev blog or the actual documentation was more
         | informative to me:
         | 
         | https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2024/12/introducin...
         | 
         | https://developer.android.com/develop/xr
        
           | msabalau wrote:
           | Alternatively, maybe Alphabet actually came to understand
           | that while it would have been a pointless waste of time to
           | flush money away on AR and VR in the manner of Apple and
           | Meta, AI use cases and work on stuff like like Gemini
           | streaming and Project Astra (both prominently highlighted
           | yesterday) convinced them that AR might actually have some
           | general use in the future.
           | 
           | So they decided to put some more effort and attention behind
           | this rather than, say, shutting it down to invest more in AI,
           | or simply keeping it on a back burner as tech portfolio
           | hedge.
           | 
           | Sometimes corporate communications actually contain a bit of
           | meaning, as shocking as that might seem.
        
         | n144q wrote:
         | It just feels a closed collaboration between Samsung and Google
         | at this time. And there is too much unknown.
         | 
         | Meta apparently isn't onboard, and they don't need to. Meta
         | knows they can't rely on Google or trust Google, so they built
         | their own Android based platform.
         | 
         | There really are just a few big players in the VR world, most
         | of which build their own platform. Meta focuses on the lower
         | end, Apple and a few others focuses on the higher end (I am
         | still not sure that's a real market where there is money), and
         | Sony has just about abandoned their platform. That's it.
        
           | Philpax wrote:
           | There are other Android XR headset manufacturers:
           | https://www.uploadvr.com/sony-lynx-xreal-android-xr-devices/
        
           | grokx wrote:
           | Right, most probably closed-source just like Android wear.
           | Even manufacturers may not have access to the source code,
           | they would just put their stuff in the vendor partition.
           | 
           | A good friend of mine works for a manufacturer that make
           | watches running on Android Wear, and closed-source system
           | updates pushed by Google turn OS-level regressions (like
           | battery consumption issues) into nightmares. So they are
           | switching back to their own AOSP-based OS.
        
       | Eisenstein wrote:
       | I wonder how society is going to adapt to everyone literally
       | having a camera pointed at them all the time by the people they
       | interact with. You can say 'there are cameras everywhere' or
       | 'cameras are on phones', but it is different when the camera is
       | on someone's face that you are talking to. Imagine every social
       | interaction being on video, or at least not knowing if it is. We
       | will have to adapt to that, probably by being overly cautious
       | about what we say and do.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _I wonder how society is going to adapt to everyone literally
         | having a camera pointed at them all the time by the people they
         | interact with._
         | 
         | I wonder if VR cameras can be blinded by IR emitters like we
         | used to do to digital video cameras in movie theaters. My IR
         | LED-studded headband won't look any stranger than someone
         | walking around in public with a VisionPro strapped to their
         | head.
        
           | Eisenstein wrote:
           | Many VR systems rely on IR light for controller tracking, but
           | if the camera is doing hand tracking, it might filter it out.
        
       | tummler wrote:
       | My initial thoughts:
       | 
       | - Some cool ideas at the OS/UXD level. Genuinely impressed the
       | thinking behind them seems more thoughtful and innovative than
       | what Apple did with VisionOS. (Not surprising given that Apple
       | doesn't understand or believe in XR from the top down.)
       | 
       | - Not looking forward to continued knee-capping of their
       | products/services on other XR platforms but c'est la vie.
       | 
       | - I have zero faith they'll actually invest resources in this
       | long-term, given how they treated their previous XR efforts. As
       | an XR dev, I doubt I will bother to build anything for their
       | platform until I see a serious long-term investment in the space,
       | and decent momentum / market share.
        
       | rkagerer wrote:
       | "We started Android over a decade ago with a simple idea..."
       | 
       |  _< cough>_ You mean, you _bought_ Android.
        
         | acdha wrote:
         | ... and did a massive pivot to copy the iPhone when that
         | launched in 2007. It made sense from the perspective of
         | protecting search but let's be honest about the real
         | motivation.
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | To be fair the Android they bought was trying to be a
         | Blackberry clone, Google did the legwork on turning it into an
         | iOS clone.
        
           | rkagerer wrote:
           | I wish they'd been more inspired by PalmOS.
        
       | _bent wrote:
       | I'd hope for Meta to support these new Jetpack APIs for the Quest
       | / horizonOS, as their SDK is currently basically limited to Unity
       | / Unreal / Native, with no primitives for building regular apps.
       | 
       | Two competing XR platforms build on Android may not be too bad if
       | apps just run on both.
       | 
       | There are some warts on horizonOS for true XR experiences like
       | the guardian system effectively locking you into a
       | predefined/scanned room or the camera feeds not being accessible
       | (would be useful for scanning QR codes or copying IRL text),
       | hopefully some competitive pressure can move Meta here.
       | 
       | Right now there are quite a few Quest 2 & 3 devices on the market
       | and not a single new Samsung XR glass. Any developer building a
       | new XR app would want their app to run on Quest
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | > I'd hope for Meta to support these new Jetpack APIs
         | 
         | They did deprecate their original proprietary VR APIs in favor
         | of the cross-vendor OpenXR standard, so maybe there's hope for
         | them playing ball.
        
         | MikeTheRocker wrote:
         | Meta actually has a native SDK for apps that appears very
         | similar to what Google announced today with Android XR.
         | 
         | https://github.com/meta-quest/Meta-Spatial-SDK-Samples
        
           | PaulHoule wrote:
           | I'd bet on Meta because XR is Zuckerberg's Moby Dick whereas
           | it is 20% of a 20% priority at GOOG. Meta is watching
           | competitors (Vision Pro) but also keeping an eye on cost
           | conscious consumers. It's so refreshing to see "Big Tech"
           | taking such a pragmatic approach.
        
         | tummler wrote:
         | If any Android interoperability happens, I doubt it will be
         | because Google is encouraging or allowing it.
         | 
         | They've refused to officially support Play Store apps on Meta
         | HW, intentionally released the most barebones versions of their
         | products on Meta platforms, etc.
         | 
         | They don't seem willing to play nice and now that they have
         | their own platform to push, I can't imagine that would change
         | for the better. But would love to see it.
        
         | Zigurd wrote:
         | That's going to be complicated for no particularly good reason.
         | It will turn out kind of like Android in Kindle Fire devices:
         | No Play Store, but some app compatibility. Google won't drop
         | their compatibility requirements, and Meta won't give up their
         | own development path for an AOSP based product.
        
         | wkat4242 wrote:
         | I can understand the camera feeds not being accessible to every
         | app. Tbh that makes _total_ sense. Do you trust every app
         | developer to look around in your home? I would trust random app
         | builders even less that I do meta :) I don 't even care that
         | much personally but I'm sure many people will.
         | 
         | The guardian system doesn't apply when you are in passthrough
         | mode. You can walk around and leave screens in different rooms,
         | you will see them through walls even :) So that's not a problem
         | anymore. Meta has improved passthrough mode a lot since the
         | Vision Pro came out.
        
           | refulgentis wrote:
           | > That makes _total_ sense. Do you trust every app developer
           | to look around in your home?
           | 
           | Strawman; n.b. iOS solved that in 2009.
        
             | wkat4242 wrote:
             | iOS isn't constantly recording. When it is you notice. It
             | also doesn't have the battery life to do so.
             | 
             | On a VR headset multiple cameras are constantly recording.
        
               | refulgentis wrote:
               | Interesting, thanks --
               | 
               | Let's say iOS was recording in one app.
               | 
               | Can other arbitrary apps record without user
               | intervention?
               | 
               | If not, how does a user enable an iOS app to use the
               | camera?
               | 
               | Could that same solution be applied to vision Pro?
        
           | Miraste wrote:
           | The problem is that camera feeds are not accessible to _any_
           | app, even with user permission. Quests have no vision
           | capabilities because of this.
        
       | ethernot wrote:
       | Last thing I want is Google, Qualcomm and Samsung looking over my
       | shoulder all day.
        
         | cubefox wrote:
         | Last thing? So you prefer Horizon OS (Meta) or visionOS (Apple)
         | instead?
        
           | ethernot wrote:
           | I'm not sure why you could infer that from my answer. _Last
           | thing_ is a figure of speech not an ordered set with my point
           | being the tail item :)
        
             | mike_ivanov wrote:
             | I think they are implying that eventually you'll be forced
             | to choose from those three options, and it will be kind of
             | mandatory.
        
               | ethernot wrote:
               | I can't see that happening at all. The idea gives little
               | utility over the top of the last big leap (smart phones)
               | with a lot of additional costs and problems.
        
               | n144q wrote:
               | The vast majority of people in the world don't own any VR
               | device as of today, and likely never will. I don't see
               | there is a "be forced to" thing happening.
        
             | yamazakiwi wrote:
             | They inferred it because those companies were left out of
             | your category of the "last thing you'd want". Anything left
             | out would be categorized as "not the last thing you'd want"
             | when there are parallels in the omitted yet well known
             | offerings.
        
               | ethernot wrote:
               | That would assume that it was possible to rank them,
               | which I made no statement about.
               | 
               | Anyway this discussion is starting to sound like Slashdot
               | circa 1999...
        
               | yamazakiwi wrote:
               | You don't have to make a statement about ranking them
               | when you said "the last thing you'd want". Figure of
               | speech or not. It seems telling to the reader when
               | discussing XR to leave them out, that's all. You could
               | have just clarified and called it a day.
               | 
               | The fact that we're being so pedantic now instead of
               | discussing our actual opinion is making me more certain
               | that your purpose was not to have a discussion so I'll
               | shutup now.
        
               | ethernot wrote:
               | My initial point was a really that there are terrible
               | privacy implications and poor track record of actually
               | treating the customer well, as if that wasn't obvious.
               | 
               | As for the rest, I'm just pissed off with people throwing
               | their words into my mouth. Oh there we go again.
        
               | yamazakiwi wrote:
               | Fair enough, let me know when you want to provide more
               | opinions you don't want to discuss :)
        
           | poisonborz wrote:
           | The market already answered for the time being: none of them.
           | This is space is an R&D sinkhole, all what companies do is
           | make land grabs for an imagined future.
        
             | no_wizard wrote:
             | It would be a great thing if some unknown company cracks
             | all of this before any of the big ones do.
             | 
             | Seemingly feels unlikely, due to the cost perhaps, but it
             | would upend things a bit, put these bigger companies on
             | their toes.
        
       | taco_emoji wrote:
       | Stop trying to make VR happen, it's not gonna happen
        
         | ThrowawayTestr wrote:
         | Have you tried it?
        
           | taco_emoji wrote:
           | No, I have no interest
        
             | verdverm wrote:
             | You're missing out on some pretty awesome experiences
        
         | meiraleal wrote:
         | It'll definitely happen, we just don't know when (unless
         | nuclear war).
        
         | figers wrote:
         | I want AR glasses, not VR helmets!
        
           | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
           | The current paradigm of outward facing digital cameras
           | passing through to screens is idiotic IMO.
        
             | verdverm wrote:
             | Yeah, the Hololens 2 is still my favorite device and
             | experience. Quite upset Microsoft axed the project and team
        
           | ncruces wrote:
           | Everyone does. This is another step towards that. The top
           | comment says Google has been stop-and-go about this. Well the
           | tech was never there to do it. But they never really stopped
           | playing with the idea. Since 2013.
        
       | lordswork wrote:
       | Why is there no pictures of the actual headset anywhere?
        
         | cubefox wrote:
         | That's probably announced in a separate Samsung press release.
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | There is no actual headset. Its an OS they're offering to
         | hardware partners.
        
         | umeshunni wrote:
         | The verge review has a picture of the headset:
         | https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/12/24319528/google-android-...
        
       | andrewmcwatters wrote:
       | This is cool, but I'm mostly sad the future of computing is so
       | closed. I can already see that you're not going to be allowed to
       | do a lot of things on these devices to the point that they're
       | useless, like iPhones.
        
         | cubefox wrote:
         | Android (XR) is a lot more open than iOS (visionOS).
        
           | jayd16 wrote:
           | Is there any information on this or you simply mean they're
           | working with out of house hardware?
        
         | gumby271 wrote:
         | Google's announcements around these things always scare me. So
         | many references to Google Play and their own services, its hard
         | to tell if this will be open like Android itself or some locked
         | down appliance like the Vision Pro. Its no surprise Apple chose
         | to follow the iPhone model since it's so profitable for them,
         | I'm not sure Google has the same incentives so maybe they wont
         | copy that part.
        
           | andrewmcwatters wrote:
           | It seems like even Android being "open" these days is an
           | incomplete story, as it's almost more like a barebones Linux
           | kernel build with some bare UI and libraries now, rather than
           | a mobile OS distribution with standard apps that vendors can
           | build on.
           | 
           | You seemingly have to do everything yourself, which begs the
           | question why not just go full blown Linux distribution, and
           | throw on some sort of Android app emulation?
        
             | gumby271 wrote:
             | I largely agree, especially when focused on consumer
             | devices. Professionally I'm building a product built on top
             | of AOSP, and it's been really nice to have a standard
             | target and all the tooling that Android brings. It could be
             | better but the base AOSP does have a lot of value as a
             | general purpose OS.
             | 
             | I'm in the midst of debating moving us to just Linux or
             | sticking with Android, and the list of things to replace
             | isn't insignificant.
        
           | rangestransform wrote:
           | you can blame the FTC for that, google is getting antitrusted
           | because they built android as an open ecosystem and then
           | tried to monopolize it, whereas apple gets mostly free reign
           | over their walled garden. it reads to me that the message
           | from the FTC is to vertically integrate and wall off
           | everything, and open nothing.
        
             | acdha wrote:
             | That's a weird way to say the FTC is being consistent.
             | Google marketed Android as open but didn't mean it, while
             | Apple never promised otherwise. While I'd like both to be
             | more open, there seems to be a clear message that you need
             | to give consumers what you sold them.
        
       | xwall wrote:
       | 3rd day of announcements from Google, looks like Google is also
       | celebrating 12 days ship-mas anonymously.
        
       | ghjfrdghibt wrote:
       | I am guilty of not seeing the point of the internet when it first
       | came about, so I fully expect I'm wrong again. But I don't get
       | these wearables beyond games, and potentially in the context of
       | museums. I certainly don't think I'll be using these things.
        
         | stronglikedan wrote:
         | I use my Quest almost daily for exercise. It's a game changer
         | in that regard. Especially, in MR, which is more aligned with
         | the XR in this post.
        
           | ghjfrdghibt wrote:
           | Never even considered that. How does it work? I don't
           | exercise with earphones or a phone because I don't like
           | things on my head/ears while exercising. I don't like wearing
           | jewelry, even watches. I'm aware this is fairly unique.
        
             | hnuser123456 wrote:
             | There's a game called beat saber where you have to swing
             | light swords at blocks that fly towards/past you in sync
             | with music. It will get you sweating pretty fast while
             | having fun and not noticing how hard you're exerting
             | yourself.
        
           | bogwog wrote:
           | > I use my Quest almost daily for exercise. It's a game
           | changer in that regard.
           | 
           | I exercise almost daily without a VR/AR headset. How would
           | that technology improve my workouts? My impression is that
           | it's a gimmick that is not worth the costs (discomfort,
           | increased risk of injury, sweat, privacy issues).
        
             | crazygringo wrote:
             | Gamification, fun, and variety.
             | 
             | Exercise can get really monotonous for some people.
             | 
             | But if you practice in a boxing app that also makes it a
             | game of skill, which you enjoy more, why _wouldn 't_ you?
             | 
             | Also, I'd guess you're much more likely to injure yourself
             | with heavy weights in the gym, then during the more
             | aerobic/cardio type of exercise you do in VR.
        
           | jamesy0ung wrote:
           | I'm interested in using it for exercise, what apps do you
           | use?
        
             | nixosbestos wrote:
             | SynthRiders. Like Beatsaber but better IMO. Hard to put
             | down once I start. I always leave sweaty. It has a decent
             | community and decent custom tracks.
        
         | LordDragonfang wrote:
         | So, for the VR stuff it's unclear, though I think everyone is
         | underrating just how good the social aspect is - being able to
         | have a "face to face" conversation with your friend who lives
         | across the country is incredible (it's nothing like a video
         | call, the 3rd dimension really tricks your brain)
         | 
         | However, sticking to the XR stuff, it helps if you think of it
         | not as a new class of device (though it is) but as a new class
         | of screen.
         | 
         | Think of it as the monitor version of what smartwatches are for
         | cell phones. Sure, smartwatches don't let you do anything _new_
         | , but they're extremely popular because they let you interact
         | with your personal all-device without taking it out of your
         | pocket- at the cost of being on a tiny screen. XR devices
         | expand on that, making the whole _world_ your screen, letting
         | you spawn as many 4k monitors as you want or tiny displays
         | wherever.
         | 
         | They have a few added features, like overlays on things you
         | see, but just like the health stuff on smart watches, that's an
         | added feature that can grow the market and help a person
         | justify it, not the core of the product.
        
       | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
       | I'm holding out for Android One
        
       | HaZeust wrote:
       | With the iPhone XR being an existing namesake and "Android" being
       | first understood to many as a type of phone, I don't think this
       | was a good naming convention idea for a completely different
       | category of product.
        
         | rodiger wrote:
         | I don't think most consumers are familiar with the iPhone XR.
         | They know iPhone, and _maybe_ iPhone X, but I don 't think the
         | naming will be an issue here.
        
           | HaZeust wrote:
           | I guess we shall see.
           | 
           | https://i.imgur.com/3HqLMma.png
        
         | dagmx wrote:
         | XR is common as a name for the space.
         | 
         | OpenXR, WebXR. Even visionOS is actually xrOS if you look at
         | the SDK.
        
           | iAMkenough wrote:
           | From a developer perspective, that's true. I don't think the
           | average consumer shares the same perspective.
        
             | dagmx wrote:
             | True but does the average customer care that it's running
             | Android either?
        
           | HaZeust wrote:
           | https://i.imgur.com/3HqLMma.png
           | 
           | I guess we'll see.
        
         | ryandvm wrote:
         | Don't worry, it will be abandoned and recreated multiple times
         | in the next 10 years anyway.
        
           | typeofhuman wrote:
           | It'll be sunsetted before then.
        
         | prophesi wrote:
         | My first impression was that they're bringing back something
         | similar to Cardboard/Daydream. Agree that the naming is
         | confusing on several levels, whether you're familiar with XR as
         | nomenclature for VR/AR or not.
        
         | askafriend wrote:
         | > With the iPhone XR
         | 
         | Enough time has passed that this doesn't feel like a real
         | concern.
        
       | cube2222 wrote:
       | Nice, I'm excited for more development and adoption in this area,
       | as I enjoy gaming on VR!
       | 
       | I've recently got a Quest 3 (previously had a Valve Index) and
       | I'm frankly blown away by the progress over the last 5 years, and
       | also how well streaming games over wifi works - and generally,
       | cable-less PCVR - I wasn't aware it's gotten so good by now!
       | 
       | Though I think there's still a long way to go, ergonomics-wise,
       | until I'm happy to wear goggles all day long to work in them.
        
       | OnionBlender wrote:
       | Was Android XR announced before this? I remember seeing a job ad
       | for Android XR on Google's job board.
        
       | zitterbewegung wrote:
       | I see that they have added many of the visionos window /
       | volumetric design language which is good if you want to target
       | both devices especially if you have a Unity project.
       | 
       | I actually expected visionos 2 to have at least some of the AI
       | features that AndroidXR has or even what was launched with Apple
       | Intelligence. But, looking at both releases of XR applications it
       | is a huge buy in with developers. I've been trying to learn
       | visionos and it is difficult. If I want to develop with Android
       | XR you always have to worry about the possibility that they will
       | stop supporting the project if the current devices don't do as
       | well and also Google tried to do XR already.
       | 
       | I really do like that there is competition in the space. What is
       | even better is that AndroidXR does have familiar window
       | management so users don't have to learn things twice. I want to
       | have this be successful.
        
       | poisonborz wrote:
       | I see no other reason for this than to show to investors "yeah
       | can also do the Apple thing" - most probably to not have to sink
       | something that was probably developed head to head with Vision
       | Pro before.
       | 
       | Expect to not really hear from this again.
        
       | OnionBlender wrote:
       | Hopefully Google won't follow Meta by forcing developers to
       | create an account just to develop apps for the device. On Quest 2
       | you can just enable developer mode and use adb, but on Quest 3
       | you have to create an account and have a companion phone just to
       | enable developer mode.
        
         | tokioyoyo wrote:
         | Like a Google account? I've always been curious if that
         | actually had ever been a showstopper for anyone other than very
         | niche tech circles.
        
         | a2128 wrote:
         | On Quest 2 it's the exact same process, you have to create a
         | developer account (sometimes verify a credit card or phone
         | number) and have a companion phone to enable developer mode. In
         | fact you need to have a companion phone to use either headset
         | at all. I had problems pairing my Quest 2 headset with my phone
         | initially and the headset was just a useless brick until it's
         | set up with an account through a phone app and a brittle
         | pairing process.
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | For the Quest 1 too. It's always been this way.
        
       | skgough wrote:
       | It would super cool if they eventually make this a part of the
       | phone OS and all you would need to do is buy a headset and plug
       | it in over USB-C. Same idea as Dex, different display form
       | factor, but same computer.
       | 
       | Then with Android Auto, Dex, and XR, you would just need a single
       | computer you can carry with you.
       | 
       | Seems like the end state for personal computing. Instead of
       | buying separate computers, you buy human interface devices and
       | plug them in over USB-C.
        
         | Thorrez wrote:
         | What about wireless? Wireless earbuds popular. People might
         | find it a UX downgrade to need a cable running from their
         | glasses to their phone in their pocket as they walk down the
         | street (the demo shows AR navigation as someone walks down the
         | street).
        
           | elcritch wrote:
           | WiFi 6 does ok for VR. The current limitations IMHO are the
           | hardware on glasses / headsets in terms of compute and power.
           | Not too dissimilar to how wireless earbuds just weren't
           | practical til what 5 years ago?
        
         | 999900000999 wrote:
         | I had a very weird day and I thought about this.
         | 
         | Cloud sessions for everything, one unified OS for your phone,
         | VR, PC, TV, etc.
         | 
         | Built from the ground up, it both runs on a 30$ phone and a 6k
         | computer. Do it on Risc V or another open source architecture.
         | 
         | Then I came back to earth and realized this would cost hundreds
         | of billions to build and market.
         | 
         | Android is close. But ultimately you can't run any PC apps on
         | it( although Dex + Remote Desktop to a Microsoft Cloud PC can
         | fake it).
         | 
         | In my dream we don't even need USB C, your just limited to
         | whatever device your currently using. For example you're TV
         | could probably play the Sims, or use cloud gaming. Your PC
         | could also play the Sims, but AAA games as well.
         | 
         | We'd have to build a new OS( probably a Linux distro) which is
         | heavily dependent on cloud services.
         | 
         | I'd be hyper aggressive with the marketing. A 50$ mini Risc V
         | PC gets you started.
        
       | greatgib wrote:
       | The Google vaporware of 2025 to be discontinued in 2026...
        
       | yathern wrote:
       | Google's VR/XR strategy has been very stop-and-go, between
       | Cardboard, Daydream, and a host of their VR applications they
       | invested into 8 years ago (Poly, Earth, TiltBrush). It's obvious
       | they don't want to be a leader in the space - just want to hedge
       | their bets in case it becomes a viable market. If they maintained
       | a steady presence in the space, I think Daydream could be
       | competitive as a lower-entry-point alternative to the Quest
       | headsets - which - since they run Android, would be potentially
       | mutually beneficial.
        
         | askafriend wrote:
         | > If they maintained a steady presence in the space
         | 
         | Problem is no one gets promoted for that. That would require a
         | vision and strong leadership.
         | 
         | Something both Apple and Meta have but Google does not.
        
         | CountHackulus wrote:
         | That's basically Google's strategy on everything.
        
           | throw0101d wrote:
           | >> _Google 's VR/XR strategy has been very stop-and-go_ [...]
           | 
           | > _That 's basically Google's strategy on everything._
           | 
           | https://killedbygoogle.com
        
         | cush wrote:
         | Exactly. Had you asked me yesterday if Android XR already
         | existed, I would have assumed yes they built it like 10 years
         | ago... Remember Google Cardboard? Google Glasses?
         | 
         | I look forward to their definite announcement of Pixel Glasses
         | in the coming months, as this certainly won't be something they
         | completely forget about by next quarter
        
         | andrewmcwatters wrote:
         | I'm a little sour about Google Cardboard. It was and still is
         | the greatest accessible 3 DoF VR implementation in my opinion.
         | What a fantastic concept.
        
           | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
           | It would be a nice use of "old" phones as well. Load up some
           | old phones with Virtual Virtual Reality and other games.
        
           | JeremyNT wrote:
           | Yeah I think it was a huge missed opportunity. The idea was
           | great, the barrier to entry was really low, and it worked
           | really well for stuff like street view / google earth.
           | 
           | I showed it to my daughter the other day and she was really
           | impressed. There's only one remaining app that can use it
           | afaik.
        
         | kfarr wrote:
         | This x100, I wrote a similar message on a WebXR forum. They've
         | started and stopped so many times it's hard to take this effort
         | seriously. Is this just exec FOMO trying to catchup to Apple
         | and Meta? Or do they really believe in this? I don't think it's
         | the latter.
        
           | radicaldreamer wrote:
           | All of this boils down to internal incentives at Google to
           | get promoted
        
           | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
           | > Is this just exec FOMO trying to catchup to Apple and Meta?
           | 
           | Google doesn't work like this.
           | 
           | People can almost autonomously spawn up small projects.
           | 
           | If it looks promising they keep getting more resources until
           | it either has explosive growth and profits or someone higher
           | in the chain thinks there isn't a current viable path for
           | THAT version of the project to profitablity.
           | 
           | Google might believe in XR and keep funding these small
           | projects, but if none of them display evidence that that
           | particular approach is going to be huge, then they move on.
           | 
           | It's not top down.
           | 
           | Sundar doesn't say, we need more XR. Team, go find me the
           | most promising options, and then we'll fund it to the moon.
           | And then a month later he gets bored and says, no, never
           | mind, kill that. Let's chase another hype bubble. Only to
           | then months later come back and say, team, we need more XR!
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Watching Google talks at GDC throughout the years, convinced me
         | that they don't have any idea how to deal with game studios,
         | exactly the ones relevant to VR/XR.
         | 
         | They mostly talk about PlayStore analytics and marketing
         | approaches, seldom about game technology or design.
        
           | PaulHoule wrote:
           | I think of what a missed opportunity Stadia was because they
           | didn't have a culture where people who are knowledgeable
           | about game dev were listened to.
           | 
           |  _Titanfall_ was a game that couldn 't be made until the
           | cloud and _Stadia_ could have done the same for game
           | streaming -- any new platform needs it 's _Super Mario
           | Brothers_ that makes you rethink what games can be, otherwise
           | players will ignore it.
        
             | marksomnian wrote:
             | > Titanfall was a game that couldn't be made until the
             | cloud
             | 
             | What do you mean by this?
        
               | PaulHoule wrote:
               | See https://www.engadget.com/2014-03-10-titanfall-cloud-
               | explaine...
        
             | pjmlp wrote:
             | Definitely, imagine coming to game studios talking them
             | into rewriting into Linux/Vulkan, using command line and
             | gdb, when the culture is using Windows and Visual Studio,
             | including the devkits plugins for Sony and Nintendo
             | consoles.
             | 
             | This with Google's background in long term investments.
             | 
             | And to come back to my point, many of the talks I was
             | referring to, were in the context of Android games and
             | Stadia, most still available online.
        
               | PaulHoule wrote:
               | If you had to define one characteristic of Google, it is
               | "they just don't listen". I think it comes from a
               | viewpoint of social status in which "high status people
               | talk and low status people listen" and they think they
               | can maintain high status if they only never listen.
               | (Wouldn't want to become a low-status company like
               | Microsoft that listens sometimes)
               | 
               | I'd contrast that to Meta which has been through various
               | waves of scathing criticism and often comes across as
               | responsive, for instance they've listened a lot to devs
               | about weaknesses in the Quest platform.
        
             | acdha wrote:
             | I was also thinking about how MS Flight Simulator used all
             | of that satellite imagery. You can't tell me that someone
             | couldn't find an awesome game using their maps and street
             | view horde which by now includes 3D models of a ton of
             | places, but I don't see anyone betting on Google for a
             | critical dependency until they have a new CEO and
             | convincing culture change.
        
               | 1986 wrote:
               | Geoguessr is the kind of thing the old Google would have
               | built internally and released as a "just for fun" or
               | April Fool's thing
        
             | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
             | They demoed some pretty cool tech that is really only
             | possible via streaming and then nobody leveraged it so
             | Stadia was just another boring game streaming service.
        
               | PaulHoule wrote:
               | To be specific: Google could have deployed large games to
               | large cloud services with a large number of GPUs
               | attached. Such a system could support a world with a
               | working set of 128GB or more and draw all the graphics
               | for all the players with everything closely coupled (like
               | very big couch multiplayer with multiple screens!)
               | 
               | Wargaming it though there is no such thing as a "128GB
               | world" from the player's perspective and for a long time
               | high-end games have used many tricks to shoehorn huge
               | worlds into small boxes such as
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto:_San_Andre
               | as
               | 
               | which was released for the PS2 with just 36MB of RAM! A
               | "128GB world" that is cheaply developed could probably be
               | crunched into a 8GB world that looks good enough with an
               | expensive development process (you need much more out of
               | your systems programmers and artists.) To make something
               | that's truly a different experience you need a "2TB
               | world" shoehorned into a 128GB world which would be an
               | expensive proposition.
               | 
               | I don't think Google could have talked any game dev shop
               | capable of that sort of thing into doing it, it was
               | something Google was going to have to do itself. They
               | could have afforded it. And they could have entirely
               | changed people's expectations about games.
        
           | Miraste wrote:
           | It's going to be years before game studios even consider
           | working with them again after the Stadia disaster.
        
       | PaulHoule wrote:
       | Pro tip: did you know that there are certain words and phrases
       | that make people's glaze over? Many authors of press releases
       | don't. "XR" is one and "Gemini" is another. Use more than one in
       | the same headline and your audience concludes the message is
       | "move along folks nothing more to see here"
       | 
       | (at least they avoided 5g and blockchain... for now)
        
       | shatsky wrote:
       | Looks like a chance to finally have modern standalone HMD with
       | unlocked bootloader. Meta and ByteDance ones are locked down and
       | full of spyware
        
         | 0x457 wrote:
         | Are you suggesting that a company where ads are a major revenue
         | source going to release a product that doesn't spy on you?
        
         | floren wrote:
         | I really wish Glass-style HMDs had taken off... I've built my
         | own, but it's useless if the sun is out at all. I just want
         | something unobtrusive and inexpensive that I can drive with a
         | real computer.
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | I have a glass enterprise edition and it's ok with the sun
           | out. But unobtrusive it is not. I'd rather have something
           | like the Vuzix Blade.
           | 
           | The device is completely abandoned by google by the way, but
           | at least it can run normal Android apps so it can still be
           | useful.
        
             | floren wrote:
             | Vuzix Blade would be fine too, just something that has a
             | display you can look at when you want to and ignore when
             | you don't. The Blade is way too damn expensive, though.
        
               | wkat4242 wrote:
               | Yes it is :(
               | 
               | I got the glass second-hand super cheap but that was way
               | too expensive new as well.
        
       | therealmarv wrote:
       | They should create their own glasses with this new Android and
       | name it:
       | 
       | Google Glass
        
       | cush wrote:
       | Google is struggling to catch up so hard that they're only now
       | just working on their metaverse play
        
         | mattlondon wrote:
         | Happy that quantum computing breakthrough and AI 2.0 launches
         | came out "first". Happy for "metaverse" to be a distant distant
         | distant 3rd.
        
       | ClassyJacket wrote:
       | Can't wait for Google to abandon this in 6 months and shut it
       | down in two years!
       | 
       | Let's all get invested... not.
        
       | runjake wrote:
       | Watching their videos makes me sea sick after a few seconds and I
       | wonder if they should have posted those as 60 fps videos.
        
       | eqvinox wrote:
       | Okay, but... Who's gonna buy this, and when? *R seems to have
       | been cooling for quite some time, AI is cooling among reports of
       | negative workplace productivity gains and poor private customer
       | acceptance...
       | 
       | And, timing wise, this being just announced... is it gonna ship
       | straight into a market collapse?
        
         | thih9 wrote:
         | > reports of negative workplace productivity gains
         | 
         | Is this anecdotal or is there a source? I'd be interested to
         | learn more.
        
           | eqvinox wrote:
           | Off the cuff, I remember https://www.forbes.com/sites/torcons
           | tantino/2024/09/12/77-of...
           | 
           | I thought there was also a report from one of the big
           | consultancy firms but I need to search for that.
        
       | ozten wrote:
       | Google as a first class partner is a massive liability. Example:
       | Stadia was amazing and they snuffed it in the cradle.
       | 
       | Samsung should license Google App store, but retain full control
       | for executing a product launch.
        
         | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
         | > Example: Stadia was amazing and they snuffed it in the
         | cradle.
         | 
         | You can be amazing and not make money.
         | 
         | Google is in the business of building good products AND making
         | money.
         | 
         | Stadia was a good product.
         | 
         | It didn't look like it would ever make money.
        
       | yalogin wrote:
       | Is there a real market and revenue to be made with these mixed
       | reality headsets like Quest and AVP? If so what does mass market
       | adoption even mean for these? I suspect the peak is not far from
       | where we are now. Thoughts?
        
         | fixprix wrote:
         | AR is still very much a gimmick as we are surrounded by screens
         | right now and we don't need anything on our face to see them.
         | They're also easier on the eyes as headsets like AVP have a
         | fixed focal plane.
         | 
         | VR on the other hand like the Quest, lots of people use
         | everyday for games, exercise, media and socialization.
         | 
         | Unfortunately big tech thinks VR is for children, and keeps
         | plowing money into AR because that's what adults want. Meta's
         | best demos for AR was annotating prices on pieces of fruit.
         | 
         | Apple, Meta and now Google are like lemmings jumping one after
         | the other off the AR cliff.
         | 
         | At least Meta made a decent headset. They could probably make
         | some money off of if if the software was better and the store
         | better curated, but they are way over extended on hardware
         | people in AR lala land as their VR software just crawls along.
        
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