[HN Gopher] Evolving my ergonomic setup (or, my laptop with extr...
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Evolving my ergonomic setup (or, my laptop with extra steps)
Author : Liriel
Score : 174 points
Date : 2024-12-11 08:56 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ntietz.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ntietz.com)
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| A Ploopy trackball - they're the best although I do kind of want
| a wireless one as well.
| ntietz wrote:
| The bearings are sooooo satisfying. I would also love to have a
| wireless one.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I'm really tempted to get another one for use with my laptop,
| but I'm currently using a left-handed Elecom trackball that
| is wireless - it's fine, but not the sheer luxury of a
| Ploopy.
| ntietz wrote:
| ooh that's a good idea. I have wanted something wireless to
| make it more convenient to do supine computing, so that
| could be just the ticket.
|
| and cheers to another lefty mouse user!
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I feel like an imposter as I'm right handed, but taught
| myself to use a mouse/trackball left handed for better
| ergonomics.
| lawn wrote:
| I don't want a trackball for my thumb but for my fingers.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Most of the Ploopy trackballs are designed for fingering(!).
| The one shown in the article looks to me like the Adept model
| which I have too and is not a thumb-designed one.
|
| (My Elecom left-handed wireless trackball on the other hand
| is a thumb-oriented one. They take more getting used to as
| thumbs aren't quite as dextrous)
| lawn wrote:
| Oh, that's neat! For some reason I thought they only had a
| thumb variant...
| eschneider wrote:
| Great build! And I've been looking for something like the
| Ploopy trackball for -ages_. :)
| Cumpiler69 wrote:
| Same reason for me I only buy laptops who's displays can open
| nearly 180 degrees (so no MacBooks): it allows for a wider choice
| of more ergonomic postures looking straight ahead instead of down
| on the desk.
| theshackleford wrote:
| Ironically for ergonomics, I need to look down. I significantly
| increased my daily pain by trying to follow standard ergonomic
| advice because I failed to take into account my unique needs.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Any trackpad other than macbook gives me instant pain lol
| Cumpiler69 wrote:
| I use a mouse though. Track pads give me pain
| aitchnyu wrote:
| Did you control for off-center trackpads for laptops which
| have number pads and small trackpads?
| JackMorgan wrote:
| I like the newest design! The hook and loop for the power adapter
| in particular really is a great idea for something that needs to
| be removed so frequently.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| A real-life example of _necessity is the mother of invention as
| well as innovation_.
| maeln wrote:
| This does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from
| pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that
| usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest,
| but regular mobility and strength exercises. While having an
| ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont
| save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you
| find the right kind of exercises for you. This is often not
| obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are
| often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it
| regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than
| any setup I ever had.
| thisissomething wrote:
| > This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to
| reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting.
|
| As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues,
| this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak
| hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
|
| Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my
| mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months
| in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel
| upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only
| takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to
| doom scrolling.
| theshackleford wrote:
| I wish it only took me 30 minutes a day.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| I'll bite. Why does it take longer for you?
| maeln wrote:
| Not the commenter, but AFAIK, people with some condition
| might have to put significantly more effort, at least at
| the beginning, to get equivalent result. The typical case
| would be for overweight/obese people. While mobility and
| strength always help, it won't counter balance all the
| strain that the extra weight put on your body. It will be
| more efficient to focus on getting lean first, and then
| focusing on strength/mobility. Although it is possible to
| do both (and maybe recommended ? But i am way out of my
| depth here).
| nemomarx wrote:
| a little regular exercise helps with weight loss, at
| least in anecdotal stuff. not that you can burn away a
| bad diet with exercise but the cardio and exertion help
| with the stress of dieting (lots of nice endorphins in a
| runners high!) and seem to aid metabolism a little.
|
| doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like
| half of my weight loss routine basically.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| AIUI there are two other factors that are important with
| strength training and weight loss:
|
| - Increased muscle mass raises your BMR, enabling the
| same weight loss rate at a higher caloric intake
|
| - Strength training combats your body's tendency to burn
| muscle as well as fat when in a calorie deficit, focusing
| the weight loss on the body component you want to get rid
| of (the fat).
| swiftcoder wrote:
| I don't think this is accurate.
|
| Adjusting for equivalent level of activity, people
| carrying around a lot of extra weight tend to have
| commensurately more muscle from carrying that extra
| weight around (try wearing a 40kg weight vest day and
| night for a few weeks - you too will have to put on
| muscle just to get through the day).
|
| It's generally considered to be a lot easier for an
| overweight person to get lean as a side-effect of getting
| strong, rather than the other way round.
| theshackleford wrote:
| I just have a lot of things I have to do in my program,
| and I have to do them twice a day, every day. I thought
| it might be better not to do it every day, and asked
| that, but was told no by two separate physios and my care
| team and so twice a day every day it remains. I also do
| in person physio and pilates on top of this three days a
| week.
|
| It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I
| suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out
| of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told
| I probably never will. But I cant stop because even
| though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long
| run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone
| really.)
|
| Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight
| fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I
| just cant do it physically until I undergo further
| evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the
| energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme
| even outside of that.
|
| I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I
| hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my
| time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a
| whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to
| building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about
| 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else
| in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
|
| I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too
| because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a
| spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
| ishtanbul wrote:
| I am in the same situation. Disc herniation, post
| surgery, doing pt every day and no material improvement
| in 3 years. Ive tried many pt programs. My time is under
| extreme pressure.
|
| I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer
| movement pattern of walking, running and crouching.
| Unfortunately i live in nyc and my desk job may kill me.
|
| If we can use AI+VR/AR to put an end to desk work, it
| will dramatically benefit billions of souls.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| > mourning routine
|
| What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
|
| /i
| thisissomething wrote:
| ahahahahh, good catch. small oopsie from a non-native
| speaker.
| ntietz wrote:
| This is great advice! It took me 2 years and many doctors
| before I wound up at a physical therapist who figured out my
| nerve issue in 10 minutes. It was _wild_ how they could move my
| shoulder and reproduce it. Now I'm working on strengthening
| stuff to make it better--and keeping the setup for a defense in
| depth against other issues
| toasterlovin wrote:
| Just jumping on this to say: I had chronic lower back and wrist
| pain for a long time. Had the whole ergonomic setup. Adjustable
| desk, Kinesis keyboard, vertical mice, etc. What fixed me was
| starting to squat. Took like 3 weeks of squatting and I haven't
| had back or wrist pain since (it's been 10+ years). Now I just
| use the standard (and very nonergonomic) Apple keyboard and
| mouse.
| jdreaver wrote:
| Huge +1 to this, but I would also add walking _at least_ 8000
| steps per day. I still had some minor, nagging pain until I
| started walking more. Turns out humans are not meant to sit
| all day!
|
| I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It
| tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider
| common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8
| hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these
| things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made
| to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day
| with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move
| around more.
|
| [0] https://thereadystate.com/built-to-move/
| supersrdjan wrote:
| It appears that the problem is not in sitting too much, but
| rather in sitting in chairs specifically. Apparently,
| hunter-gatherer people also spend about 10 hours a day
| sitting. But they sit on the ground. Or kneel or squat. And
| they don't have the issues we get from sitting too much:
|
| https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1911868117
|
| So... the end-game of ergonomic chairs might be no chair at
| all.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Given the tables in the results section, it would seem
| that the people in the study don't have long periods
| where they don't move. "average sedentary bout lengths"
| hover between 15 and 20 minutes.
|
| So the problem with "sitting in chairs specifically" is
| probably not the chair, but the fact that the chair
| facilitates longer "sedentary bout lengths". If this is
| correct, then the commenter suggesting to get up and move
| every so often is probably on point.
| supersrdjan wrote:
| Makes sense. That said, fidgeting and moving around is
| spontaneous when on the floor, you don't have to be
| reminded to do it. Also, no chair is cheaper than an
| expensive chair.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > fidgeting and moving around is spontaneous when on the
| floor, you don't have to be reminded to do it
|
| Indeed, it's actually what prompted me to go look over
| the document.
|
| I remember, as a kid, when out and about and before
| getting into the habit of sitting in a chair all day
| every day, I would sit on the floor or on random objects,
| like stones or tree trunks in the countryside. I wouldn't
| be able to sit still for long periods of time and would
| need to at least change positions.
|
| Whereas now, in my "ergonomic chair", I can sit for more
| than one hour at a time with minimal, if any, changes in
| position. Ditto for my couch (which wasn't marketed as
| "ergonomic" in any way).
|
| That being said, I've tried using a computer in other
| positions, like putting the laptop on a coffee table and
| squatting or sitting on the floor in front of it, or
| having it rest on my thies while squatting. It gets
| tiring very quickly, especially in the shoulders and neck
| area.
|
| So, in my case, what seems to work best is to get up
| regularly and walk around the room for a bit.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Any theory to why squatting would help wrists, isn't the
| weight born by shoulders?
| swiftcoder wrote:
| Even though the weight is carried by the shoulders, you are
| still stabilising with the wrists, and working on some arm
| flexibility that isn't much exercised in other contexts
| toasterlovin wrote:
| See my response. It was actually air squats, not barbell
| squats, so couldn't have been this. Though my hunch is
| that weighted squats would work better, due to the
| mechanism you outline.
| toasterlovin wrote:
| It was actually air squats that solved it for me, though I
| did start doing compound lifts with a barbell shortly
| afterwards.
|
| Two hypotheses:
|
| 1. I was just incredibly weak due to being sedentary and
| even a tiny amount of strength training released enough
| "get stronger" juice to my system that other muscles also
| got stronger.
|
| 2. Pain is a complex phenomena that relies on our bodies
| being properly calibrated and lack of any kind of strenuous
| activity mis-calibrated my pain system.
|
| I'm more inclined toward hypothesis 2. Further life
| experience has led me to believe that our physical and
| psychological systems are very much dependent on existing
| in a specific, narrow milieu to function properly.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Yup, can confirm. Had forearm pain for years (started in the
| wrists when I started using a laptop at school), did the whole
| round of ergonomic keyboards, joystick-mouse, etc. Eventually
| went to a personal trainer who had me try pushups, couldn't do
| them because of wrist pain. He then made me do deadlifts, which
| were tricky at first because my grip strength wasn't great, but
| after just a few sessions it improved markedly, and with it, my
| wrist/forearm pain. Long-term relief, too. I'm only now (seven,
| eight years later?) starting to feel it again.
| worthless-trash wrote:
| Are you lifting at the moment ?
| 243423443 wrote:
| I had a similar experience. Until I started exercising, I had
| very bad pain in my shoulders and neck from too much desk
| work. Every couple of weeks I would develop a "stiff neck". I
| also had pain in my wrists occasionally.
|
| Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my
| problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
| nothrabannosir wrote:
| Word for word the same for me. Ergonomic interfaces helped
| a bit but their effectiveness was eclipsed by strength
| training. Lifting weights outperforms any ergonomic setup,
| no contest.
| brokenmachine wrote:
| My theory is that because your muscles are a little bit
| tensed for a long period of time, there's not enough movement
| to move the blood and lactic acid around, and eventually it
| builds up and becomes painful.
|
| So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with
| light weights helps a lot.
| bowsamic wrote:
| No it's literally just atrophy and weakness. Supporting
| muscles not being strong enough, etc. The increased
| strength relieves a lot of misplaced physical stress
| nicholasjarnold wrote:
| Full agree. My wife is a physical therapist (DPT, Northwestern)
| and the owner of a PT practice. I say this with some (very
| limited) authority, repeating things she has said to me:
|
| 1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going
| to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever
| plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they
| will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're
| empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant
| upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is
| called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you
| without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford
| it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay"
| PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system.
| You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less
| overburdened PT.
|
| 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I
| know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
|
| 3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and
| simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread.
| This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time.
| This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of
| us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes
| who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots
| they'd never think about.
|
| 4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you
| would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead
| of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating
| those types of dysfunctions.
|
| Good luck getting/staying well!
|
| disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal
| training in any physical or medical science. Consult a
| professional. :)
| theshrike79 wrote:
| > 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour
| (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
|
| This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any
| drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you
| like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the
| appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I
| got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool
| for 8 hours easily.
|
| Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once
| during the day =)
| xarope wrote:
| For those of you who don't have 2 minutes for some balance
| and proprioception work, I practise putting on pants and
| other stuff in the morning with one hand, usally my non-
| dominant, whilst brushing my teeth. It is hard at first,
| don't kill yourself with your toothbrush in case you fall
| over, but it gets easier after a few weeks.
|
| Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my
| teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins
| instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
| maccard wrote:
| If you don't have two minutes free, the best thing you can
| do is find two minutes to have free. The mental
| improvements you'll see are incredible.
| wolftickets wrote:
| +1 - Shared with my wife, who is also a DPT(Southeastern US)
| and she agreed with all of these points.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| I've had wrist pain from mouse use for about 15 years now. The
| first big win was a vertical mouse, but I still had pain when
| working excess hours or playing video games. I tried various
| workouts and hand exercises and they usually left me in pain
|
| What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right
| amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started
| going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my
| wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
|
| So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not
| give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to
| experiment and stay active.
| wooque wrote:
| This should be top comment. The lengths people will go to avoid
| exercising.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Yes, all my issues with pain are fixed by regular exercise at
| the gym doing exercises prescribed by physiotherapists
| elric wrote:
| I imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time
| progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and
| affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even
| custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's
| mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit
| hole.
|
| Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction,
| they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people
| realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an
| upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so
| glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
|
| As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built
| into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair.
| Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
| akerl_ wrote:
| I remember the chair mount being a post on the keyboard.io
| community forum. Somebody built that setup with the Model 01.
|
| Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to
| the computer when the chair was on wheels.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Glove80 is wireless and has a chair mount accessory
| gigaflop wrote:
| >> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's
| shaped to my hand
|
| I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love
| it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels
| like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size,
| which adds up over 40h weeks.
| elric wrote:
| I've tried them, but something about the button placement
| feels off for the shape of my hand. I recommend them to
| people quite often, and they're usually well received.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| How far are we with brain control interfaces though? I've seen
| some people playing games with off-the-shelf-ish non invasive
| eeg devices. Although there seemed to be some delay and
| crudeness to it.
|
| If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable
| to improve it until you can type with it right?
| swiftcoder wrote:
| > If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be
| doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
|
| Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable,
| unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently
| implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the
| present time.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| I'm still surprised by the price of some of these split
| keyboards. I guess it's just small batch size but $400 is
| steep.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| That is pretty cheap in the long run.
| pnut wrote:
| But when I can buy a "good enough" Dell keyboard for $30,
| over 10x the cost for splitting the PCB in half sure smells
| like a rip off.
| elric wrote:
| Does it? The "good enough" Dell keyboard is made by a
| multi-billion dollar corporation in extremely large
| quantities. Economies of scale bring the price all the
| way down, and they skimp on parts (e.g. no real
| mechanical keys).
|
| The cost isn't in "splitting the PCB in half", it's in
| designing and connecting two halves. In sourcing
| (usually) high quality mechanical keys. Due to the small
| batch sizes there's also a good chance these are
| installed by hand, which is pretty labour intensive.
| Labour ain't cheap.
| de_nied wrote:
| I work for a U.S. company that makes ergonomic 3D printed
| keyboards. We design specifically for the individual
| user's hand. Almost all the keyboard shells (the 3d
| files) are designed custom for the individual.
|
| Labor is pretty cheap. It takes on average about 2 hours
| to build a keyboard. If there are no issues, it takes 1
| hour. That costs about $25 total on average for labor.
|
| The main cost is the 3d printed shells. We print PLA
| ourselves for cheap, but we outsource Nylon and Resin to
| China. These can cost anywhere from $150 to $200 for the
| entire thing.
|
| The next highest cost are the PCBs. Our connectors, PCB
| columns for the switches, trackball PCBs, and the "brain"
| PCB, where all the logic processing happens, end up
| costing over $100-$150 total.
|
| The total cost to build them ends up being anywhere from
| $250 (the absolute minimum barebones keyboard) to $400
| for higher end boards.
|
| Just some insight.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| Maybe. If a $30 keyboard works for you that's great. They
| drive me crazy.
|
| My take is that ergonomics are personal. Split keyboards
| work for me.
|
| If your body is complaining, don't ignore it. Take
| actions. Split keyboard might be one action that helps.
| pimlottc wrote:
| I get what you mean, but that is assuming that you know
| exactly which one to get and you only need to buy one. In
| reality, you'll probably need to try at least 3-4 keyboards
| to find the right one, and they're not always easy or cost-
| free to return since they're often only available on
| specialty sites or kickstarters.
| nightowl_games wrote:
| I bought they keychron Q11 because it was cheaper and it is
| way higher quality than I expected. It's a fantastic split
| keyboard.
| coreyh14444 wrote:
| Bonus Framework Laptop spotting :)
| gibbitz wrote:
| I love that the desk in the shots is a coffee bar. Thinking of
| how customized my coffee setups are it is a clear analogy for
| ergonomics. Adapting an activity to one's biology.
| ntietz wrote:
| I'm a sucker for aesthetics, and that is my most aesthetic spot
| for photo shoots
| vladak wrote:
| This feels familiar. I lug my Lenovo laptop, the Logitech
| ergonomic mouse, aluminium laptop stand and external Keychron
| keyboard (thinking about buying the Q10 with Alice layout),
| mostly to have convenient setup on the go, not primarily for
| ergonomics. Carrying all this stuff plus the extra other things
| in the daily backpack is certainly not ergonomic, however I think
| about it as training for some long hikes.
|
| I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much.
| Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
|
| Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the
| computer setup..
| ntietz wrote:
| The LG DualUp is such a gem!
|
| You may be interested in one of my current projects, I'll post
| details when it's done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and
| am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
|
| I think we'd get along.
| akho wrote:
| Their arms and neck hurt from computer use, so they develop
| elaborate setups to be able to use computers more.
|
| I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches
| an unrecoverable state.
| dammaj wrote:
| Well, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the
| computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is
| "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the
| undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting
| that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't
| think your comment is helpful. Regards.
| ntietz wrote:
| The OP is a woman who uses she/her pronouns.
| dammaj wrote:
| Well, sorry if that was offensive, I should have used
| "they" in case of doubt.
| ntietz wrote:
| It's a "yes and" approach. I've been pursuing physical therapy
| and medical treatment the whole time as well.
| akho wrote:
| Glad to hear that, and hope you can work it out.
| margalabargala wrote:
| This is a bit unfair.
|
| Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically
| laptops) in their factory configuration.
|
| They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause
| pain when used.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| Looks like shes a programmer and writer so they're doing what
| they can to continue using their tools for career.
| tokai wrote:
| Balls ever worked for me. Makes my hands cramped. Bar or
| rollermouse (rollermice?) has worked wonders for me though. Keeps
| the elbows tucked in, and makes both hands able to share the work
| load.
|
| That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic
| workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a
| proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
| progforlyfe wrote:
| that's really fuckin cool!
| resource_waste wrote:
| I don't think the solution is to move your body less.
|
| Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple
| keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching
| and strengthening.
|
| I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
| Tarrosion wrote:
| OP, you have a comment there about mouse support in the
| Keyboardio. I've been using a Keyboardio since 2019 and haven't
| much tried the mouse support -- any advice? How did you set it
| up?
| fipar wrote:
| Not OP, but I have a Model 100 and I just assigned mouse keys
| in Chrysallis. It used to be the case that you had to build
| your firmware to change the speed, but now that's possible
| through Chrysallis too.
|
| I don't use them very often because I don't mind using a
| trackpad, but it is useful sometimes.
| troismph wrote:
| The coffee machine makes the whole setup even more ergonomic.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| For those wondering about the tiny amount of keys, you definitely
| can get used to it.
|
| I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically -
| I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I
| have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to
| press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9),
| but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the
| keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the
| time.
|
| There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this
| (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it),
| but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
| lawn wrote:
| I even think the Corne have too many keys and for me it's
| enough with a 3x5 grid plus one or two thumb keys.
|
| The big trade-off is layout complexity. My layout[0] is
| extremely complicated...
|
| [0]:
| https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
| jmercouris wrote:
| I don't understand why one wouldn't just limit their time using
| the computer. If using a computer is giving you pain, stop using
| it. You can do most of your programming in your mind anyways.
| NoPicklez wrote:
| Well perhaps "not using the computer" won't actually fix the
| problem to begin with.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| I don't know what kind of genius mind you have, but I at least
| have to write down my ideas. Paper will suffice though.
| zharknado wrote:
| This is awesome. Thanks for sharing it!
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| Always like to see what ergonomic tricks work for others. A few
| thoughts.
|
| Corne doesn't have mouse support? My Lily58 does. (I thought they
| were basically the same expect mine has number keys.)
|
| Cool mouse. I have a CST mouse, which is similar and works for
| me.
|
| I wonder if there is some way to make the wood monitor mount/tray
| skimmer or more portable. The first search on Amazon for "desktop
| laptop stand" pulls up an Amazon basics stand that gives a little
| more confidence than the wood stand. Of course, it isn't diy.
| xixixao wrote:
| All I need is a mac with the screen at the right height (at my
| eye level). So far the best setup I came up with is long car
| mount for my 12inch iPad. The iPad sits above my macbook screen.
| I use this on planes and at tables without monitors.
| coopykins wrote:
| I use a similar setup with my desktop: Split keyboard with
| trackball in the middle. Been using it for 3 years now and I love
| it.
| bjord wrote:
| it's a cool setup, though I wonder if it might be more compact if
| one designed a new case for the framework (laptop), given that
| the built-in keyboard and trackpad will go unused
|
| one complaint: I initially had no idea what a "hook and loop
| fastener" was, and even then I had to google it to confirm it was
| velcro
| k__ wrote:
| Anyone tried coding with XR glasses?
| n144q wrote:
| A reminder that you want to take a break every half an hour or so
| from your desk if possible, even with the best ergonomic setup in
| the world. People often start with a good posture and then slouch
| over time, and an ergonomic setup alone cannot fix it. Taking
| regular breaks also helps your eyesight.
| glitchc wrote:
| Does TSA give you a hard time when they see that rig pop up on
| the X-ray?
| GoldenRacer wrote:
| I have a similar setup. Corne keyboard, trackball mouse,
| portable laptop stand. Never had an issue with TSA. I don't
| even bother taking the keyboard out of my bag since each half
| is roughly the size of a cell phone
| jakupovic wrote:
| Biggest thing, or the only thing that worked, is using 2
| keyboards. With this I get the correct width needed. Whenever I
| use the regular keyboards I have to scrunch my shoulders and this
| leads to back pain and arm/hands pain. Highly recommend
| prmoustache wrote:
| Moving that coffee machine out of the room will do much more for
| the OP's body than any keyboard, screen or trackball setup
| change.
| robrtsql wrote:
| She addresses that, actually...
|
| https://www.ntietz.com/blog/decaf-is-good-actually/
| prmoustache wrote:
| My point was more about the location of the machine. Having
| to do a quick pause and walk to your kitchen to prepare a cup
| of coffee, tee or whatever once in a while is not a bad thing
| for ypur body.
| amelius wrote:
| Perhaps someone could build and sell a portable computer that can
| do that.
| robomartin wrote:
| All of these so-called solutions are a waste of time and largely
| just adding a ridiculous amount of complexity to what is a very
| simple problem.
|
| Context: I worked a number of years in the special effects
| (movies) world. I supported hundreds of graphics artists working
| in dark rooms 16 hours a day. Think movies like Independence Day,
| Star Wars, etc. Dozens of artists wore all kinds of wrist braces
| all day. They also had just-about every single crazy ergonomic
| keyboard you could possibly imagine, including various forms of
| split, slanted, cavity, whatever. And, of course, the fanciest
| adjustable chairs and tables. I remember a couple of the guys
| working on Independence Day having to have surgery on their
| wrists. Crazy. Just nuts.
|
| Do you know who did not suffer from these injuries? Without fail,
| anyone who was actively involved in sports or physical training
| (going to the gym, lifting, swimming, etc.) AND took regular
| breaks.
|
| In my own case, having seen just how bad things could get, once I
| started to feel soreness on my wrists I took matters into my own
| hands. I use the flattest possible keyboards and a thumb-operated
| trackball. I designed and made my own desk to guarantee proper
| arm and wrist ergonomics.
|
| Laptops, for the most part, are evil. They force the wrist into a
| bad configuration. Not good for prolonged work if you care about
| your health.
|
| Aside from that, take breaks and lift weights. Amazing things
| happen when you squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on a
| regular program (I recommend Starting Strength).
|
| The vast majority of the crazy ergo setups out there are a waste
| of time. They do not address the root cause, which is treating
| your body like we are robots. We are not. We need moderation,
| rest and exercise. That's the solution or, at the very least, the
| way to mitigate and prevent injury.
| fipar wrote:
| I agree completely with you regarding not treating our bodies
| as if we're robots. About a year ago I began lifting weights
| again, something I hadn't done in more than 20 years, and the
| difference is amazing.
|
| I used to have very frequent pain episodes that would severely
| affect my ability to type on a keyboard, and now they are
| almost completely gone (and when I do get them, it's nowhere
| near as severe as it used to be).
|
| That said, I still have a Model 100 (as the one depicted in the
| older pictures in the post) and the ergonomics are IMHO worth
| it, at least compared to some of the keyboards available, but
| in particular to builtin laptop keyboards (as you mention,
| everything is bad about laptops and I treat mine like a very
| portable desktop: if I need to be on the move, I take my
| keyboard and trackpad and use the laptop as a small display).
|
| On top of that, the fact that it's programmable turned out to
| be much better than I had thought. My workflow is heavily
| customized now and I'm objectively a lot faster than I used to
| be before. The layers system on this keyboard takes a bit of
| getting used to (as does the layout itself) but, at least for
| me, once I got through the learning curve, it's so good I'm
| going to buy another one to have as a spare.
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