[HN Gopher] Xylella Fastidiosa: A crisis brewing in Europe's oli...
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       Xylella Fastidiosa: A crisis brewing in Europe's olive groves
        
       Author : indigodaddy
       Score  : 104 points
       Date   : 2024-12-09 21:29 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.everymansci.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.everymansci.com)
        
       | mensetmanusman wrote:
       | Cases like these build support for indoor farming if externalized
       | costs of black swan events and pesticides are incorporated into
       | the cost calculation.
       | 
       | Outdoors wins always from a power efficiency standpoint, but
       | disease can flip the balance.
        
         | kreyenborgi wrote:
         | > The most practical strategy, for now, is to plant olive
         | varieties that are naturally resistant to Xylella fastidiosa to
         | prevent future outbreaks and minimize potential losses.
         | 
         | It seems rather to be yet another argument for polycropping and
         | taking care of genetic variety and adapting to local
         | conditions, instead of trying even harder to hammer nature into
         | a grid.
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | I agree. Biodiversity in agriculture is severely lacking. The
           | good news is that we have heritage seeds. However, we don't
           | have the capacity to ramp that stock up quickly. The main
           | issue is that farmers will choose the best seeds for the
           | current conditions/risks. This leads to a consensus winning
           | variety. There's no benefit to the farmer to plant "inferior"
           | seeds for an event that has yet to happen.
        
             | Terr_ wrote:
             | A "biodiversity subsidy" sounds like a kind of
             | agricultural-assistance I could get behind, although the
             | devil is always in the details.
             | 
             | One concern that comes to mind: If a certain variation is
             | more-susceptible to a particular disease or pest, and
             | becomes a beachhead or reservoir--fun mixed metaphors there
             | --for infection.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | Yeah, this would probably be best served by some
               | biosecurity program at the USDA or a handful of
               | universities.
        
           | Aloisius wrote:
           | Reading more, there appear to be just two cultivars naturally
           | resistant to Xylella fastidiosa.
           | 
           | Spain already grows hundreds of cultivars of olive trees,
           | though only three are used for the bulk of the olive oil. So
           | replacing those with resistant ones would reduce diversity.
        
             | kreyenborgi wrote:
             | A different monoculture is not the solution to the problem
             | of a monoculture. Replacing all of them with the resistant
             | ones would reduce biodiversity (perhaps the resistant ones
             | are susceptible to other diseases, perhaps the nonresistant
             | ones will at some point be resistant to a new disease). See
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyculture
             | 
             | The main problem with polyculture being that it assumes
             | local farmers are smart and cunning individuals who find
             | (perhaps unorthodox) solutions in constrained, complex and
             | realistic environments because their livelihoods depend on
             | it (or because they got an interesting idea and couldn't
             | let it go), and who know more about their challenges than
             | random hn commenters like me, instead of being mindless
             | drones that can be replaced/interchanged at will by central
             | overlords with complete control over the panopticon food
             | factory.
        
         | culi wrote:
         | Disease is not a problem if we stop practicing monocultures.
         | The added labor costs associated with polyculture still end up
         | being less than the added energy costs of indoor farming
        
           | adalacelove wrote:
           | From TFA:
           | 
           | While the focus has been on olives, the bacterium's ability
           | to infect such a broad spectrum of plants makes it an
           | agricultural nightmare, particularly in regions where
           | multiple crops are grown in close proximity.
        
             | giantg2 wrote:
             | They aren't talking about polyculture as proximity to other
             | types of crops. They are talking about the limited genetic
             | diversity in within a specific type of crop. This issue is
             | very common. Another example is the Cavendish banana. I
             | believe the article advocates for planting resistant
             | varieties.
        
               | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
               | >They aren't talking about polyculture as proximity to
               | other types of crops. They are talking about the limited
               | genetic diversity in within a specific type of crop.
               | 
               | I know that not everyone is a horticulturalist. Allow me
               | to explain why this is dumb. It is true that for a crop
               | like tomatoes, you might just grow any old mongrel seed,
               | and that the tomatoes will still produce... even if
               | yields are off 30% or 40%. Monocropping in that case is
               | about increasing yields, not making the impossible
               | possible.
               | 
               | This is simply not true with most orchard tree crops (or
               | grapes, or about half the sorts of food crops you've
               | enjoyed all your life). An apple, for instance isn't just
               | a monocrop of closely related sibling plants... each Fuji
               | or Pink Lady apple you've eaten is a genetic clone of any
               | other of that type. They are literally cloned through
               | grafting (and sometimes rooted cuttings). If we want to
               | get really technical, each tree is technically a chimera,
               | with only the crown being Pink Lady, the low trunk and
               | roots will be something like M.111 (another variety that
               | you don't eat it's fruit). Hell, sometimes there's even a
               | third type in the middle of the two called an
               | "interstock". What would happen if you didn't clone apple
               | varieties? You wouldn't eat apples anymore. Every apple
               | tree would produce its own kind of fruit, some might be
               | just as good as Fuji or Yellow Delicious or any of the
               | others you're familiar with. But there'd only ever be one
               | tree of that. Apples do not grow true to seed. Some would
               | be little golf-ball-sized crab apples. Others would be
               | completely tasteless. Or dry and pithy. Or nasty-looking
               | things that always split while growing. Maybe farmers
               | would still grow them as feed for hogs (but productivity
               | is also a genetic trait, and you've just struck a death-
               | blow against having a large number of highly productive
               | trees). Maybe they'd be grown to make alcohol (more
               | applejack or cider than apfelwein I'd think).
               | 
               | But apples as a desert fruit would be gone.
               | 
               | And it's like this for many, many crops. Hell, even
               | something like wheat... you can complain about
               | monocropping, but these new varieties that they use
               | actually resist diseases better (not to mention prevented
               | who knows how many famines through increased yield). This
               | is the argument of someone who whines about GMO crops and
               | shops at Whole foods, a certain political type whose
               | preferred policies seem designed to just make food more
               | expensive and scarce.
               | 
               | >Another example is the Cavendish banana.
               | 
               | There are plenty of banana cultivars... few of them of
               | the sort that people in the developed world enjoy. It's
               | the same problem as all of the other. But for Cavendish
               | (and a tiny handful of other varieties), you'd have no
               | bananas at all.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | Yes, these are all things I know.
               | 
               | You bring up apples and other orchard fruits. Yes, in
               | production you want things like uniformity and yield. But
               | from a long term survival standpoint, you want some
               | diversity, such as through preservation of heritage
               | varieties or allowing some seeds to grow and selecting
               | from them. Otherwise, you end up with a very short list
               | of possible options when faced with new diseases. You
               | need some genetic pool to select resistant rootstock
               | from. It also prevents things like genetic and epigenetic
               | adaptations to the environment (see progressive cold
               | hardening). Of course the economics of it discourages
               | farmers from selecting currently inferior varieties for
               | crops. But perhaps a biosecurity program could fill that
               | gap.
        
               | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
               | >But from a long term survival standpoint, you want some
               | 
               | You don't get to have that. It's just not an option. All
               | these polyploidals do not work like that. You can have
               | uniformity (which people want anyway), or you can have
               | fruit that's so bad no one wants to bother growing it.
               | There's no middle ground.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | Haha nice false dichotomy.
        
           | heresie-dabord wrote:
           | Monoculture was not the cause. From TFA:
           | 
           | "The origin of the Xylella outbreak in Italy can be traced
           | back to a single coffee plant imported from Central America
           | in 2008. Researchers found that the bacterium in the infected
           | coffee plant adapted to thrive in olive trees, setting the
           | stage for the crisis that would unfold over the next decade.
           | By 2015, the disease had spread beyond Apulia, affecting
           | regions across France, Spain, and Portugal. The rapid spread
           | of this bacterium has left scientists and farmers alike
           | scrambling for solutions."
        
         | tonetegeatinst wrote:
         | Wonder if you could robot automate indoor gardening or
         | beekeeping.
         | 
         | As someone who strongly dislikes bees, but loves honey and its
         | products I find myself wondering how to automate beekeeping so
         | I can not interact with bees.
        
           | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
           | They once built a robot bee that could waggle-dance inside
           | the hive. The bees eventually started listening to it. You
           | could put on an Oculus, and go dance-talk to them remotely.
           | There are like 5 words in their grammar with which to
           | communicate one idea... where to find the nectar.
           | 
           | But the truth of the matter is they need someone to babysit
           | and check up on them once in awhile. Make sure they're free
           | of mites, that the colony isn't going to be unbalanced (that
           | they might need a new queen, if something went wrong, or
           | there's not enough brood in the comb). Wear a beekeeping
           | suit. No reason to dislike them, they appreciate flowers,
           | make candy, and twerk-to-talk. Seems like they're the good
           | guys.
        
           | Carrok wrote:
           | Indoor gardening is very much highly automated already.
        
           | yyuugg wrote:
           | Have you spent any times with bees? Beekeeping really changed
           | my opinions on bees. They are quite industrious and very
           | gentle.
        
         | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
         | This will sound like bullshit... but I have three indoor olives
         | at the moment. Two were ordered as rooted cuttings a couple
         | months back, under grow lights and getting a decent amount of
         | new growth. A third was on the clearance rack at Lowes, it's a
         | big bigger. But, before they get 3ft or so, they're going to
         | have to go outside. They're already too big for my not-
         | unimpressive grow lights.
         | 
         | Olive oil's already like $50 for a gallon can (and not much
         | cheaper even if you eat the trash stuff). Were olive orchards
         | inside, no one like you or me would ever get to enjoy them
         | again.
        
           | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
           | Trim them into bonsai.
        
             | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
             | I've never been good at that. Knowing exactly how much to
             | trim, and when, is some sort of psychic power. My plant
             | telepathy's just weak.
             | 
             | That said, olives would probably work well for it,
             | considering their growth habit. Only as art, mind you, my
             | wife and I'd fight over the one olive per year for the
             | celebratory dinner salad.
        
               | Maciek416 wrote:
               | I've studied bonsai with a professional who trained in
               | Japan for a number of years. Bonsai is a well-developed
               | professional craft that should be learned from people who
               | already know it rather than guessed at from absolute
               | first principles (or from completely
               | illiterate/nonsensical web slop, whether AI or not), as
               | most beginners unfortunately try to do.
               | 
               | The known-good techniques that produced long-term bonsai
               | don't in any way whatsoever resemble the naive approach
               | of "trimming" in the hedge pruning sense. This (along
               | with the mistake of growing indoors) is why the vast
               | majority of the public concludes bonsai is a dark art /
               | impossible. Guessing at bonsai is like throwing rocks at
               | a computer hoping that C code will just "happen" somehow.
               | 
               | If you have a sun-facing outdoor garden, know what the
               | term "binary tree" means, and can describe a tree in
               | terms of a data structure (nodes etc), then you have
               | within you the ability to learn bonsai for realsies if
               | you make contact with people who do it in real life.
               | Olive bonsai trees are relatively common in
               | mediterranean-climate bonsai scenes, like that of
               | California's bonsai scene:
               | https://bonsaitonight.com/2023/10/20/preparing-an-olive-
               | for-...
               | 
               | Trees like this are not grown on kitchen counters or in
               | living rooms. _Maybe_ in a world-beating cannabis tent,
               | but the hassle is extreme, and (going back to the topic
               | of this thread), fighting diseases in the indoor
               | cultivation environment is much much harder than outside.
        
           | jnmandal wrote:
           | Nailed it. Indoor farming doesn't work at scale for tree
           | crops. The soviets had quasi indoor "pineapple pit" style
           | plantations of citruses in far north of their effective
           | ranges. Imagine something like a subterranean greenhouse in
           | trench format -- yet even in a planned economy that was
           | hardly a viable project.
           | 
           | But the Spanish monks who gave gave California olive trees
           | were on to something. If you plant enough new olives from
           | seed then you can eventually find and develop a variety that
           | grows well in your particular climate. This obviates the need
           | for sheltering the tree much or at all.
           | 
           | No offense mate but I bet if we accounted for the cost of
           | your grow light setup your eventual harvest might could be
           | some of the most expensive olives in the world. No hate
           | though, I've got an olive tree indoors too (though just in a
           | window).
        
             | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
             | >If you plant enough new olives from seed then you can
             | eventually find and develop a variety that grows well in
             | your particular climate.
             | 
             | Yeh, "Mission" olives. One of the cuttings is that.
             | Allegedly one of the most cold-hardy cultivars. It might
             | survive outside with our winters (yay global warming) if I
             | get the trunk to about 4" before it has to make its own way
             | outdoors. Hoping anyway.
             | 
             | >No offense mate but I bet if we accounted for the cost of
             | your grow light setup your eventual harvest might could be
             | some of the most expensive olives in the world.
             | 
             | Oh, for sure. These are my end-of-the-world olive trees.
             | Mostly keeping them inside now because it's winter.
             | Starting in March, they should be able to go outside until
             | Halloween or so. I should be able to get more cuttings off
             | of each (Mission, Pendolino, Arbequina), and make several
             | dozen trees. But some will always be indoors as mother
             | trees for more cuttings.
             | 
             | And yeh pineapples are absurd. But my daughter just finally
             | nailed getting the tops to root... putting them in a jar of
             | water just rots the crown here (air quality, humidity?
             | dunno). She dried one out until it looked dead, then
             | trimmed the bottom a bit more, and there was nice living
             | tissue, a pretty yellow. That was able to be put to
             | moisture, and it rooted in a few weeks. The greenhouse
             | square footage for something like "one pineapple a month"
             | would be on the order of 350sqft, and we're unclear if they
             | can be staggered. Sometimes these plants decide to all
             | bloom at once, even if some are overdue and others
             | premature.
             | 
             | We have a list of "things we can't live without if the rest
             | of you monkeys shit the bed and and can't sell it to us
             | anymore".
             | 
             | If anyone knows anybody at Foundation Plant Services at UCB
             | and would like to do me a favor, private message me? Just
             | need someone to put in a word for me.
        
               | jnmandal wrote:
               | Nice. Good luck. It sounds like we are up to similar
               | things. Its nice to see that. I wish there were more
               | forums for this specific type of discussion.
               | 
               | > We have a list of "things we can't live without if the
               | rest of you monkeys shit the bed and and can't sell it to
               | us anymore".
               | 
               | Not trying to be obtuse about this because I get it...
               | but if we end up in this situation, I think olives and
               | pineapples will be one of our least concerns. Both are
               | great plants to grow and experiment with. I also grow
               | olives, fruits, all kinds of berries, etc. But due to the
               | rather interconnected nature of both the global economy
               | and the global climate system, it may be that if we ever
               | begin to see items like that in widespread failure we
               | could simultaneously be overwhelmed w/ larger problems.
               | Lets say massive food price inflation, isolated
               | famines/shortages, and ultimately total base calories for
               | our diet.
               | 
               | So while I don't disagree with your sentiment at all I
               | would just say that I hope you have things like grains
               | and staples on that list. Sweet potatoes are a relatively
               | nutrient-rich and calorie dense food that are technically
               | perennial and can be grown in similar format to how you
               | describe your olives and pineapples (take them indoors in
               | winter, use some greenhouses to extend season, etc).
               | Bananas are similarly useful if you are in the right
               | climate. In the biosphere 2 experiment, sweet potatoes
               | constituted the bulk of their diet (source:
               | https://ecotechnics.edu/wp-
               | content/uploads/2011/08/Advances-...). In a worst case
               | scenario we might even end up in victory garden type
               | situation and need to plant corn, beans, etc wherever we
               | have space to do so.
               | 
               | > anybody at Foundation Plant Services at UCB
               | 
               | As for this, I'm not in your region so I have no
               | connections there but I highly recommend just finding a
               | few names and emailing them about your project. I've done
               | similar with people all over the and I normally do get a
               | reply. Most recently an Israeli horticulturalist I had
               | read about on HN responded and gave me germination tips
               | for some trees I am growing after I emailed her.
               | 
               | Happy gardening mate. :)
        
               | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
               | >Not trying to be obtuse about this because I get it...
               | but if we end up in this situation, I think olives and
               | pineapples will be one of our least concerns.
               | 
               | Lower priority sure. But, people who only pay attention
               | to the highest priorities are likely to be miserable even
               | if they make it.
               | 
               | >So while I don't disagree with your sentiment at all I
               | would just say that I hope you have things like grains
               | and staples on that list.
               | 
               | I have things like Megasphaera hexanoica and Clostridium
               | acetobutylicum on the list. Grains are there, but the
               | truth of the matter is until I can secure acreage that
               | stuff's put on hold. Am trying to find one of the old
               | pull-type combines, some other equipment (I have storage
               | if I can buy them now).
               | 
               | >but I highly recommend just finding a few names and
               | emailing them about your project.
               | 
               | They're not interested in talking to me. Their minimum
               | order's a little high for a cultivar of pistachio I need
               | for rootstock, doesn't seem to be any other option. One
               | or two nurseries will sell a single sapling for $70 or
               | so, but multiplying that into the 20 or 30 trees I want
               | to start with will take a long time. They sell seed for
               | $1 each, but their minimum order's a bit absurd. Told me
               | "that's just two pieces of budwood to get you to the
               | minimum"... what am I going to do with budwood when I'm
               | buying rootstock seed right this moment? My current plan
               | is to just get terebinthus and vera seed, grow both, and
               | hybridize them myself. Only a 10 yr setback, shouldn't be
               | a problem.
        
               | jnmandal wrote:
               | Seems like you are working on a lot of cool projects. You
               | keeping a blog or socials or anything like that ? Would
               | be cool to follow along.
               | 
               | I am doing some similar projects. I've got some acreage
               | planted with chestnuts and a few other select trees.
               | Going on three years now of planting. I haven't done a
               | good job documenting things but putting together a talk
               | about agriculture so maybe that will change.
               | 
               | > Their minimum order's a little high for a cultivar of
               | pistachio I need for rootstock, doesn't seem to be any
               | other option.
               | 
               | Sounds like you need some friends/neighbors/comrades to
               | throw in with you on a group order. I have been in a
               | similar place myself; I've roped a lot of friends into
               | these schemes now. Last month I had 7 lbs of chestnuts
               | sent to my buddy while I was out of the country haha.
        
         | jnmandal wrote:
         | No offense but that is bunk.
         | 
         | To grow thousands of olive trees indoors would be nearly
         | impossible. Perennial crops like this need huge amounts of soil
         | for their root systems, and to replace the amount of olives
         | with indoor plantation would require a massive square footage
         | of greenhouses.
         | 
         | Not to mention that diseases like this can just as easily
         | transmit indoors. Look into the American chestnut blight if you
         | don't believe me. There almost no way to grow a tree isolated
         | from the blight.
         | 
         | The only viable solution in cases like these is a genetic one.
         | In this case, we can actually top the olive and graft a disease
         | resistant variety onto the rootstock. In some cases you may
         | have to actually develop an entirely new tree from scratch and
         | replant.
         | 
         | That is why continuous research into plant genetics and
         | breeding is so extremely important for the continuation of
         | human society.
        
         | petergs wrote:
         | Indoor farming is far from immune to disease. Infected inputs
         | (seed, substrate) are just one route to contamination. See for
         | example: https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/bowery-farming-
         | collapse-...
        
         | pezezin wrote:
         | I am from Spain. We have 340 million olive trees on 28 000 km2
         | of farm land. Please tell me how we are going to do it indoors.
         | 
         | Example of an olive grove in the province of Jaen, that alone
         | produces 20% of the olive oil in the world:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Ja%C3%A9n_(Spain)#...
        
           | lioeters wrote:
           | That panoramic view of the olive garden is magnificent. I
           | didn't know olive trees are being cultivated on such huge
           | plots of land, covering fields and hills as far as the eyes
           | can see.
           | 
           | Trees seem unsuitable for indoor farming, since they need
           | tons of soil and sunlight. Also taking years to grow and
           | mature. Indoor farming in general seem unsuitable for Spain,
           | where there is an abundance of land and sun.
           | 
           | Searching on this topic I learned that green houses are
           | popular in some regions like Almeria for growing fruits and
           | vegetables. I guess green houses are something between indoor
           | and outdoor farming.
           | 
           | > Spain is currently the world's third largest tomato
           | exporter, and up to 60% of those tomatoes come from the
           | province of Almeria.
           | 
           | > The region has around 30,000 hectares of land under
           | cultivation, the majority of which is under plastic. It is
           | also the most rapidly desertifying region in the country.
        
             | KSteffensen wrote:
             | To me that panoramic view is scary, not magnificent. It's a
             | monoculture desert. There is no life there, other than the
             | very carefully cultivated one organism.
        
             | pezezin wrote:
             | Something interesting about the greenhouses of Almeria is
             | that they are one of the few human constructions easily
             | visible from space.
        
       | rvba wrote:
       | Why nobody is investing serious money into bacteriophages?
       | 
       | It seems only russia shows some interest in them - ans mostly for
       | military purposes
        
         | donavanm wrote:
         | IIRC the most usage is romania and bulgaria(?), not russia.
         | 
         | As to why not, they dont "scale out" like other generalized
         | pharmaceuticals or medicine. Phages need a bunch of patient
         | specific diagnostics and revision to be effective against the
         | specific target. Thats why you see people fly to romania for a
         | month of treatment, and not order the bacteriophages _from_
         | romania.
        
           | biotinker wrote:
           | This isn't terribly different than the latest precision
           | medicine in the US. For example, drugs like Keytruda can only
           | be used in the presence or absence of certain genetic markers
           | in the tumor. Most cutting edge immunotherapy is similar;
           | they require patient specific diagnoses and sometimes
           | revisions.
           | 
           | These therapies are the largest focus of cancer research in
           | the US right now with enormous funding behind them, despite
           | having the same weaknesses you point out as bacteriophages.
        
             | dullcrisp wrote:
             | Do bacteriophages work against cancer?
        
               | tokai wrote:
               | Not in themselves. But they can apparently be used as a
               | delivery mechanism in cancer related gene therapy.
               | 
               | https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9697857/
        
           | anitil wrote:
           | > Thats why you see people fly to romania for a month of
           | treatment
           | 
           | I had no idea people did this!
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | What kind of diseases do people have who go for such
           | treatments?
        
             | razakel wrote:
             | The cases I've heard of were all antibiotic-resistant
             | infections.
        
             | akuchling wrote:
             | "The Good Virus", by Tom Ireland, is an entertaining book
             | about bacteriophage therapies, their history, and why
             | they're difficult to scale up.
        
           | ricardobeat wrote:
           | Now I wonder, how do you fly to Romania while infected with
           | MRSA? Med evac only, or can you board a commercial flight?
        
           | rob74 wrote:
           | Well in this case the bacterium is (accounting for mutations
           | which might happen) more or less the same, not some
           | antibiotic-resistant "super-bug". But I guess most phage
           | research has gone into phages that attack bacteria which
           | cause disease in humans, not in trees, so some further
           | research would be needed? And such research seems to be
           | indeed going on:
           | https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3911242/ "We report
           | the isolation and characterization of the first virulent
           | phages for X. fastidiosa, siphophages Sano and Salvo and
           | podophages Prado and Paz, with a host range that includes
           | Xanthomonas spp."
        
         | cyberax wrote:
         | Plenty of companies research phages. They're just not that
         | great for practical purposes because they are often strain-
         | specific. Bacteria also evolve resistance to them easily.
         | 
         | The USSR's "research" was not great either. It mostly consisted
         | of practical methods of evaluating environmental samples and
         | concentrating/purifying phages.
        
         | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
         | >It seems only russia shows some interest in them
         | 
         | Used to show interest. Since the breakup of the Soviet Union,
         | most of that's just been a dumpsterfire.
        
         | hulitu wrote:
         | Because you need to fight the cause, not the effect.
        
       | trhway wrote:
       | As bugs is the main vector, birds immediately come to mind, and
       | of course quick googling brings significant recent bird
       | population decline with among other reasons (chemicals, etc.)
       | this destruction of birds and their nesting:
       | 
       | "Nighttime harvesting. Machines used to vacuum olives from trees
       | at night can suck in and kill birds. This practice is used to
       | preserve the olives' flavor, but it's a recent development that's
       | harmful to birds."
       | 
       | It is kind of like getting rid of cats and after that wondering
       | why so many rats and the plague, or the Cultural Revolution
       | famine after that mass extermination of birds there.
        
         | lovemenot wrote:
         | >> or the Cultural Revolution famine after that mass
         | extermination of birds
         | 
         | Sorry for the nitpick. I believe you are referring to the Four
         | Pests campaign, which was part of the Great Leap Forward
         | (1950s) rather than the Cultural Revolution (1960s)
        
           | trhway wrote:
           | Thank you. Shame on me. I must be sent for a week to a
           | reeducation camp.
        
             | alexey-salmin wrote:
             | If you knew the right answer but made a small mistake, then
             | it's not a question of education but of concentration.
             | Surely there must a special camp for that too.
        
         | hulitu wrote:
         | > It is kind of like getting rid of cats and after that
         | wondering why so many rats and the plague
         | 
         | or recently, in EU, we must kill the wolf, but the deer is
         | eating the small trees in the forests.
        
         | passwordoops wrote:
         | But insect populations are also declining precipitously (e.g,
         | 1), so killing birds might not have that much of an impact
         | 
         | 1. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2023989118
        
           | trhway wrote:
           | you're comparing global decline of insects to removing birds
           | and nests from those olive groves. It is like comparing
           | global wealth growth to your failure to pay rent when you get
           | laid off.
        
       | fbnbr wrote:
       | There's some fascinating research relating to this happening at
       | UC Berkeley's Almeida Lab
       | (https://nature.berkeley.edu/almeidalab/) on grapevine diseases,
       | particularly relevant to the wine industry in Northern
       | California.
       | 
       | 1. The lab, led by Professor Rodrigo Almeida, is studying
       | economically important grape diseases, focusing on Grapevine
       | leafroll disease and Grapevine red blotch disease [1].
       | 
       | 2. They're developing an AI tool for fast and accurate disease
       | identification in vineyards, which could be a game-changer for
       | disease management.
       | 
       | 3. Their work combines molecular biology, ecology, and
       | bioinformatics, using advanced techniques like genomics.
       | 
       | 4. A recent study led by Kai Blaisdell showed that mealybugs
       | efficiently transmit Grapevine leafroll-associated virus 3 under
       | field conditions, with disease symptoms appearing throughout the
       | plant one year after infection [2].
       | 
       | 5. Their focus seems to be more on understanding and managing
       | plant diseases using various molecular and ecological approaches
       | [3].
       | 
       | This research is crucial for the wine industry, especially in
       | regions like Northern California. It's not quite "genomics on the
       | brink of the discovery what was penicillin through crispr", but
       | it's still cutting-edge work that could have significant impacts
       | on grape cultivation and wine production.
       | 
       | References: [1] https://nature.berkeley.edu/almeidalab/research/
       | [2] https://nature.berkeley.edu/almeidalab/category/lab-news/ [3]
       | https://nature.berkeley.edu/almeidalab/publications/
        
       | swiftcoder wrote:
       | The last news article I found about this was 5 years ago[1], have
       | there been any significant developments since?
       | 
       | [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52234561
        
         | ganzuul wrote:
         | The price of olive oil has gone up significantly.
        
           | swiftcoder wrote:
           | I guess I'm confused that the projections in TFA are largely
           | in line with the projections in the BBC article from 5 years
           | ago. I'd expect _something_ to have changed in that time
           | (whether for better /worse), and it makes me suspicious that
           | TFA is recycling 5 year old conclusions rather than
           | presenting novel data
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | True.
           | 
           | I am usually buying the cheapest extra-virgin olive oil
           | available (in Europe), and its price has increased by more
           | than 50% in comparison with a couple of years ago.
        
             | indigodaddy wrote:
             | Try Kali Agri. Extremely high polyphenols and all around
             | excellent. Free shipping to US, but not sure about if that
             | applies for the Europe store:
             | 
             | https://eu.kaliagri.it/collections/kali-eu
        
               | amarcheschi wrote:
               | Olive leccino my beloved. It doesn't look too expensive,
               | not cheap at all, but not so expensive
        
               | indigodaddy wrote:
               | Yeah definitely not cheap like "this sucks" but extremely
               | reasonable price for pretty high quality and high
               | polyphenol olive oil imo. I like it a lot.
        
             | amarcheschi wrote:
             | If possible, try more expensive varieties as well. In some
             | cases they're so strong you'll need less oil for a better
             | result (or in my case, same amount of oil but for a
             | heavenly experience). If you can find some online farmers,
             | look for 5lt tins of oil, this way you'll save a bit. I
             | just looked how much would be to buy oil in Tuscany where I
             | live and get it shipped to France and it almost doubles the
             | price, so I guess buying online from italy is a no no
        
               | indigodaddy wrote:
               | Have no idea why you are getting downvoted. You
               | definitely do need to pay more than average for a decent
               | olive oil. And if you look, there are plenty of good
               | options for high quality and high polyphenol oil at
               | reasonable prices. Just have to dig. r/oliveoil is a good
               | place to start as there are some good discussions and
               | people like to post their finds. Be aware that there are
               | lots of people in that subreddit that kinda sorta shill
               | their own olive oil. Usually they are excellent oils but
               | often quite expensive. Again, you get what you pay for
               | for the most part.
        
           | gewu333 wrote:
           | https://www.everymansci.com/economy/why-olive-oil-prices-
           | are...
        
       | m0llusk wrote:
       | Potentially interesting how increasing biodiversity in cultivated
       | environments with a range of trees and cover crops can increase
       | resilience, but this thing attacks so many plants that even a
       | biodiverse environment is likely to remain highly vulnerable.
        
         | nickserv wrote:
         | Biodiversity should also include various varieties of the same
         | species. In some cases it's even interesting to have wild
         | varieties of cultivated fruit trees simply for better
         | pollination.
         | 
         | As indicated in the article, there are olive varieties immune
         | to the disease, so it would make a difference.
        
           | undersuit wrote:
           | >even interesting to have wild varieties of cultivated fruit
           | trees simply for better pollination.
           | 
           | Love me some pears.
        
       | nicodds wrote:
       | A voice from the field here (Puglia, southern Italy). I can
       | assure you that the landscape has changed drastically in a
       | decade. Where a few years ago you could see immense expanses of
       | green, now you see a ghostly landscape. It's incredible. Years
       | and years have been spent inconclusively, both by politicians and
       | by investigators, who have also wasted time with conspiracy
       | theories.
       | 
       | Only a few people have replanted olive trees using species
       | resistant to Xylella.
        
         | amarcheschi wrote:
         | (I'm Italian)
         | 
         | We also had anti scientific movements that opposed to the
         | destruction of olive trees in a radius big enough to prevent
         | the bacteria to spread to other plants. Farmers also tried to
         | delay the process of trees eradications by packing the judicial
         | courts with appeals. Some singers (such as Al bano, I think
         | caparezza as well) also expressed to listen to the farmers and
         | to not touch the olives, when scientists has been saying for
         | years "listen, we don't have a cure, we can't cure the plants,
         | we can only contain it before it spreads to wider areas".
         | 
         | This anti scientific behavior and this thinking of "farmers
         | might know better than scientist" that is not only false, but
         | dangerous when expressed by a public figure such as a famous
         | singer, are what I were complaining about in a different
         | comment about people being ignorant in scientific fields in
         | italy and almost being proud of it [1]
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42376014#42376351
        
           | pfdietz wrote:
           | Now we need GMO resistance to this bacterium and the
           | shitstorm will be complete!
        
           | willyt wrote:
           | I wonder what the legal implications are of ignoring a
           | disease until it spreads to your neighbour's farm. Can the
           | neighbour sue for negligence or something?
        
             | gpderetta wrote:
             | you would need a functional judicial system for that.
        
       | gewu333 wrote:
       | i wonder if Xylella has already spread to beyond Europe? Are
       | there reports of it being a problem in the middle east and north
       | africa as well?
        
       | alexey-salmin wrote:
       | Something I never understood is why trees seem to be ill so
       | rarely. There is a gazillion infectious agents on Earth from
       | viruses to fungi, mammals are barely keeping up even with our
       | adaptive immune system and fever. Plants lack all of that and yet
       | some trees live for centuries or millennia when undisturbed.
       | 
       | I realize that are many factors skewing the observation: trees
       | may be sick without us noticing, most of the trees die very early
       | and we observe ones that get mature, some trees are in fact
       | visibly sick etc. What I don't know is if these factors combined
       | explain it all or not. My gut feeling tells me that without an
       | adaptive immune response trees must be sick way more often than
       | we see, but I have no proof.
        
         | tschwimmer wrote:
         | They are sick a lot. In the United States, chestnut blight
         | killed 4 billion trees over 40 years. [0]
         | 
         | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_blight
        
         | zdragnar wrote:
         | I imagine the hard walls of plant cells helps keep bacteria and
         | virii at bay, but there's plenty of fungi that infest trees.
         | Oak wilt is a rather pernicious local threat.
         | 
         | The programming language Rust is named after a type of fungus
         | that attacks plants.
         | 
         | It's out there, but trees don't run around screaming, so it's
         | not something that people tend to notice.
        
         | stevekemp wrote:
         | Dutch Elm Disease killed a whole bunch of trees in Edinburgh,
         | Scotland.
         | 
         | I know a lot of the old Elm trees in Princes Street Gardens,
         | beneath Edinburgh Castle, were replaced by Limes. Of course the
         | problem is more widespread than than just the one city, or the
         | one country:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_elm_disease
        
         | SpicyUme wrote:
         | It may be that you don't see the illness/infections unless you
         | are looking for them or until the trees die off in sufficient
         | numbers. I look for interesting things growing near me while
         | walking or hiking and around here I see galls from various
         | insects like wasps and aceria, leaves covered in bright
         | gymnosporangium rusts, and colonies of wooly adelgids. In the
         | summer the deciduous trees tend to get powdery mildew, and I
         | know there are some more harmful fungi in the region which seem
         | to be damaging living trees in a way that is not common, but
         | also not new.
         | 
         | Sometimes you can see tress dripping sap from cuts or other
         | damage, which I understand to be part of how they defend
         | against disease. My parents had a tree that I remember dripped
         | for many years before falling over in a storm. They also had a
         | cherry tree that had a ring of dried sap bubbles on the stump
         | of a large pruned branch.
         | 
         | I found this which discusses the compartmentalization model of
         | tree immune systems: https://botany.one/2019/09/trees-fight-
         | infections-by-buildin...
        
       | emporas wrote:
       | I think mr. Dykstra [1] (not Dijkstra), needs to be more well
       | known. I have some olive trees, just a hundred of them, not much,
       | but some are monsters. There are several mistakes farmers make,
       | that over the long run compromise the health of the plant.
       | 
       | See also [2], somewhere there he mentions California lemon
       | production, but it may be in another webinar.
       | 
       | The proposal of Italian gov to kill many other plants around,
       | stems right out of the Dark Ages. Governments of course have
       | proven repeatedly how well they understand complex systems, Covid
       | was still hunted down after years of spreading to the population,
       | while i have calculated using just my mind in 10 minutes, that
       | given an incubation rate of 2 days, 63 days maximum and it has
       | spread to every person on the planet.
       | 
       | Anyway, we are gonna replace governments with 100 lines of code
       | soon, and the problem will be solved.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEeIJcGxo00 [2]
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnNOvA3diDU
        
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