[HN Gopher] The largest open-source dataset of car designs, incl...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The largest open-source dataset of car designs, including their
       aerodynamics
        
       Author : toss1
       Score  : 295 points
       Date   : 2024-12-06 18:07 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (news.mit.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (news.mit.edu)
        
       | WhatsName wrote:
       | I recently wanted to design a flying wing/rc plane. Is there any
       | FOSS to get reasonable results for aerodynamics?
        
         | jpb0104 wrote:
         | This guy seems to have a good handle on diy aero. Both air and
         | water.
         | 
         | https://youtube.com/@rctestflight
        
         | nickmcc wrote:
         | Check out: https://ecalc.ch/wingdesigner.htm
        
         | BoostandEthanol wrote:
         | OpenFOAM I think is the go to for open source CFD, although
         | I've never tried it myself. There's also XFOIL which, since
         | you're talking about a flying wing, might be enough for your
         | use case.
         | 
         | Even for a finicky flying wing, I think if you keep an eye on
         | the way the pitching moment shifts with pitch, I don't see why
         | picking an airfoil shape for the frame and hand calcs couldn't
         | get you to a design that flies reasonably.
        
         | Stevvo wrote:
         | The usual way is to use a wing with known aerodynamics. Choose
         | one on airfoiltools.com
        
         | SonicScrub wrote:
         | Using a computational fluids model like OpenFOAM is overkill
         | for reasonable estimates of aerodynamic performance and
         | stability, provided you stick to normal-ish designs. The term
         | you want to Google is "vortex lattice" and/or "potential flow"
         | solvers, of which there are many open source softwares
         | available specifically geared towards typical aircraft
         | configurations, with simple, easy to use interfaces.
         | 
         | Some good ones to look at to get started with nice guis
         | 
         | - VSP Aero
         | 
         | - XFOIL (for 2D airfoil analysis only, also generates inputs
         | for 3D VLM solvers)
         | 
         | - AVL
         | 
         | And some others if you want perhaps a little higher fidelity,
         | and don't mind text/code interfaces:
         | 
         | -FreeWake
         | 
         | - Datcom (not technically a potential flow models, but a
         | database)
         | 
         | To get the most value out of these softwares, you will need
         | some background in aeronautics. You need to have an
         | understanding of what a potential flow models can and cannot
         | accurately model. It also helps to have knowledge about what
         | forms aircraft stability/control and performance data is
         | typically communicated in, as these softwares will use that
         | terminology.
        
           | kingkongjaffa wrote:
           | I used xfoil in my aerodynamics masters degree, it absolutely
           | good enough for hobby applications
        
             | SonicScrub wrote:
             | The 2D model alone maybe be sufficient for OPs needs, but
             | I'd advocate for going at least a little further with some
             | form of 3D model. The wing tip effects are significant
             | enough to warrant some form of "next step" after the
             | initial 2D analysis. Although simple algebraic
             | relationships are likely good enough to satisfy this end.
             | 
             | However, the 3D tools above give you a little bit more,
             | that I feel warrant their consideration by the op. These
             | models can yield performance of wing-tail-body
             | configurations that include wake effects. They also can
             | give stability analysis in both longitudinal/lateral axes.
             | The stability effects being especially important if OP
             | wants to design a flying-wing, which are a tad more
             | challenging to get right than just slapping a "good-enough"
             | sized tail on a classic config plane.
        
         | addaon wrote:
         | For this type of problem, unless you are trying to set range or
         | climb rate records, understanding lift and moment (and control
         | derivatives) is more important than accurately modeling drag.
         | Panel methods shine at this, and are both easier to use and
         | much much faster than CFD -- enough that wrapping them in
         | optimizers is trivial. I personally prefer AVL, but there are
         | other open source alternatives as well.
        
         | jbay808 wrote:
         | This project might be exactly what you're looking for:
         | 
         | https://github.com/peterdsharpe/AeroSandbox
        
         | roeles wrote:
         | Xflr5? OpenFOAM?
         | 
         | I've used neither but I hear others in the gliding and model
         | airplane scene talk about those.
        
       | ericjmorey wrote:
       | Datafiles available at:
       | https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataverse/DrivAerNet
       | 
       | Issue tracking at: https://github.com/Mohamedelrefaie/DrivAerNet
        
         | qwertox wrote:
         | Paper at https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.09624 ( _" DrivAerNet++: A
         | Large-Scale Multimodal Car Dataset with Computational Fluid
         | Dynamics Simulations and Deep Learning Benchmarks"_)
        
       | morphle wrote:
       | Its a few hundred gigabyte. You can only login with an
       | institutional account. My research institute is very small, can I
       | borrow someone's login credentials? (email in profile).
        
         | hackernewds wrote:
         | It is not meant for non credentialed individuals?
        
           | gus_massa wrote:
           | From the repo
           | 
           | > _Please note the (CC BY-NC 4.0) license terms, as outlined
           | in the License section._
           | 
           | In spite of the title and the article says "open souce" many
           | times, it's free as in "source abailable".
        
           | Intermernet wrote:
           | Being licensed as it is, it needs to be publicly available.
           | This availability can be on request, but that request can be
           | made by anyone.
           | 
           | The watering down of the legal definitions of Open Source and
           | Creative Commons is a death of a thousand cuts. Every single
           | misrepresentation and false claim needs to be called out and
           | shut down. It's hard to stress how important these concepts
           | are to the current state of the world. Many people say "stop
           | being pedantic" or "the source can be read, therefore it's
           | open source". The reason you currently have a secure server
           | operating system that can use state of the art encryption on
           | affordable commodity hardware is that "Open Source" has a
           | legal definition. Please, let's not break it.
        
             | CorrectHorseBat wrote:
             | Not trying to be pedantic, but you literally asked for
             | false claims to be called out and shut down.
             | 
             | There is no open source license (that I know of) which
             | requires public availability. If there is a requirement of
             | providing sources, it's always a requirement of providing
             | sources with a derived work. If you are not releasing
             | derived works to anyone you don't need to release any
             | source to anyone either. So called permissive licenses
             | don't even have any requirement on providing sources
             | whatsoever.
        
               | foolswisdom wrote:
               | That's because license requirements are on _other_ users
               | (who are being licensed to use it) to follow, not the
               | owner (who _owns_ it and doesn't need to follow the
               | license terms the owner requires of others).
               | 
               | Nevertheless, not every license is open source, open
               | source does have a definition, and it's not about whether
               | the owner is following their own license.
        
       | MichaelTheGeek wrote:
       | Very nice.
        
       | tomjen3 wrote:
       | O great. More cars that look identical.
        
         | dietr1ch wrote:
         | Isn't this more efficient? Cheaper parts, everyone benefits
         | from improvements to it.
         | 
         | I wouldn't mind if there were only a handful of designs around
         | with some tweaks depending on performance/comfort. Also,
         | nowadays many different models share parts, like lights or
         | rearview mirrors, showing there's a need for efficiency and
         | scale bigger than the made-up need for fashionable cars.
        
           | grecy wrote:
           | I've always been shocked there are not way more common parts
           | between vehicles and brands.
           | 
           | Alternators, starters, ac compressors and so much more could
           | just be small, medium, large, extra large.
           | 
           | The price would drop dramatically.
        
             | psychlops wrote:
             | > The price would drop dramatically.
             | 
             | Aaaaand, that's why they aren't modular. Take a look at
             | something with obvious common parts like a side mirror.
             | They are all intentionally designed adding special shapes
             | to make them as unique as possible to the car. Never a
             | simple square or rectangle.
        
           | cwayon wrote:
           | Good design is emotional. It adds spark to most of our
           | everyday sightseeing, inspires and is too often overlooked-
           | at least in recent times. Regarding the recent trends among
           | car design... We are in a dark age.
           | 
           | I agree that many parts can be interchangeable but modularity
           | can be done in a way that doesn't result in every car looking
           | like the blobs we see about today. I wouldn't mind if there
           | were only a handful of designs around with slight variations
           | in trim and specs -so long as I like those designs of course!
           | I know that is subjective so lets keep things interesting and
           | focus on making things that get the job done but also in
           | varying styles. Both can be achieved.
           | 
           | The need for fashion is made up, yes- but so is everything
           | else. There's a balance between overly individualistic cars
           | and the most cost efficient, reliable and uninspiring 4 door.
           | Lately we have been leaning too far into the latter.
        
           | spookie wrote:
           | No one wants that. Neither consumer nor business.
           | 
           | Think about every GPU having 8GB VRAM. Nobody wants that.
        
           | EasyMark wrote:
           | It is. I would prefer the advantages of a "cheap as possible
           | but robust" basic car design. I want a car that is air gapped
           | and not phoning home, that is electric (or good hybrid), and
           | gets me from A to B. I want it to be reasonably comfortable
           | and inexpensive to replace the parts, which comes about via
           | mass production and minimized labor costs. Unfortunately
           | almost all of those go against what car manufacturers want to
           | do. That's why I drive a 2010 corolla for now and until it
           | blows up.
        
         | ForHackernews wrote:
         | Aerodynamics is aerodynamics, but we should embrace wild paint
         | jobs.
        
         | billfor wrote:
         | Just give me something that looks like a Buick Grand National
         | or a '92 Camaro..... I'll pay the extra money for gas. Why
         | can't they be creative and reduce the efficiency just a tad.
        
           | dotancohen wrote:
           | That was actually the design goal of Saturn - Ferrari style
           | with Chevrolet price tag.
           | 
           | A few cars have got it right after Saturn. I would say the
           | Hyundai Veloster and Tesla Model 3 top that list.
        
         | dunwaldo wrote:
         | in shift to electric we need to hit reset on design and just
         | build the best car not one that is an iteration of design from
         | our older gas cars
        
           | dotancohen wrote:
           | I believe that l the Tesla Models S and 3, and the Hyundai
           | Ionic 5 and 6, are the only vehicles designed from the ground
           | up as electric.
           | 
           | It's funny, this is the second comment that I mention Tesla
           | and Hyundai together. Two very different companies -
           | entertaining to find this overlap.
        
       | RobotToaster wrote:
       | > Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial
       | 
       | Non-commercial licenses are not open source.
        
         | csours wrote:
         | I wonder if you might say something more substantial? This
         | seems like a low effort nitpick as written.
        
           | spookie wrote:
           | Fails at criteria 6.
        
           | fc417fc802 wrote:
           | Pointing out a material misrepresentation is hardly a
           | nitpick. I'm quite surprised to see an MIT affiliated
           | publication making such an error.
           | 
           | That said since it isn't source code I think the end result
           | is probably a bit different. Unless I misunderstand something
           | you could still use the data to further a commercial venture.
           | You just can't directly commercialize the dataset itself.
           | Conceptually similar to using a GPL'd software tool as an end
           | user while performing work on a proprietary project.
        
             | gus_massa wrote:
             | I don't know how you can use this for a comercial task. For
             | example CC explains you can't use a CC-NC song in a
             | comercial video. I expect that if you use the data to
             | design a car and sell it the authors will have a similar
             | interpretation.
        
         | fooker wrote:
         | The idea is you look at the source and if you want to make
         | money from it you negotiate a license that allows you to do
         | that.
        
       | bmitc wrote:
       | For what use is this?
        
       | aquafox wrote:
       | Somewhat related: Can someone tell me why all those new electric
       | cars are so poorly designed in terms of size and weight? Most of
       | them weight over 2t and have a large frontal area (VW ID.4 is the
       | prime example). I just want an economical family vehicle
       | (lightweight, hatchback design) and there aren't that many
       | options. Isn't that something loads of people want or am I the
       | exotic one?
        
         | bagels wrote:
         | People are not buying as many compact cars.
         | 
         | Electric cars need large, massive batteries to have a useful
         | range.
         | 
         | It's as simple as those two things.
        
         | wyager wrote:
         | > I just want an economical family vehicle
         | 
         | Then buy an ICE vehicle. It's a more mature, cost-effective,
         | and power/energy-dense technology
        
           | aquafox wrote:
           | But the efficiency factor of an EV is 60% as opposed to 20%
           | for an ICE, which means you can get a similar range with much
           | lower energy density.
        
             | sedatk wrote:
             | ...at the expense of door handles and good looking tires.
        
             | bgnn wrote:
             | Gasoline has 100x more energy density per kg than Lithium
             | batteries. As you said EVs are 3x more efficient so per kg
             | dofference is 33x. Electic motors are much more compact and
             | lighter than ICEs but not enough to close the 33x gap for
             | the same weight. Thus for a similar range EVs need to be
             | heavier.
             | 
             | My ICE car is 1300kg and it can drive ~1000km with a full
             | tank of 62 liters.
        
               | rrr_oh_man wrote:
               | That sounds like a VW Passat B5...
        
               | adolph wrote:
               | > Gasoline has 100x more energy density per kg than
               | Lithium batteries.
               | 
               | This is true and also misleading since much more of the
               | energy stored in gasoline is unavailable for conversion
               | to work relative to an electrical battery. Additionally,
               | an electrical battery can absorb some of the vehicle's
               | kinetic energy, which a vehicle with only an ICE cannot
               | do.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
        
               | DannyBee wrote:
               | That table says that 122kwh is only 4 gallons of
               | gasoline. Most ICE cars that compare to an ev with a 122
               | kWh battery size hold 20 gallons of more. So still 5x
               | energy density in the ICE vehicle Or am missing
               | something?
        
               | tadfisher wrote:
               | Yes, 5x is more favorable than 33x as quoted by the GP.
        
               | bgnn wrote:
               | Sorry for unclarity. I wasn't comparing the weight if the
               | total car in EV or ICE scenario. It's more like 2x for a
               | similar range I would think, because EV drivetrain is so
               | much lighter than ICE one.
        
               | adolph wrote:
               | That's not "unclarity." That's "moving the goalposts."
        
               | adolph wrote:
               | 5x is not 100x. Or am I missing something?
        
           | rootusrootus wrote:
           | Pretty sure the Model Y is more cost effective than any ICEV
           | now. There are still valid reasons to prefer an ICE but it's
           | more expensive to do so.
        
         | carabiner wrote:
         | Now you're seeing why electric aircraft are struggling.
        
           | OnlineGladiator wrote:
           | I think the reason electric aircraft are struggling is
           | because of physics. Gasoline has far more gravimetric energy
           | density than lithium ion batteries. And weight matters a lot
           | more for flying than driving. One of the benefits of gasoline
           | is you burn it off while flying, which makes the plane
           | lighter, which increases the range. This is not a negligible
           | effect - pilots are taught to take this into effect when
           | planning flights. It's calculated by all commercial airlines.
           | 
           | Now on top of that add that it costs significantly more and
           | you have what is, by at least the metric above, an
           | objectively worse product for a higher price. Yes, there are
           | other advantages but limited range is a much bigger deal for
           | flying than it is for driving.
        
             | tadfisher wrote:
             | There's also safety. Planes can take off at a higher
             | maximum weight than that at which they can safely land. In
             | an emergency shortly after takeoff (when most emergencies
             | occur), fuel may have to be dumped to reduce landing
             | weight. So that's a double-whammy for battery-electric
             | planes; they can't safely take off over their landing
             | weight, which limits their already-short range.
        
         | lnsru wrote:
         | I am pretty sure, that "lightweight" and "family" are not easy
         | to combine unless you're family of three without the need for a
         | luggage.
         | 
         | Those new electric cars need big batteries just to be somehow
         | usable. Recently consumed 35 kWh for 65 miles ride on model Y
         | with trailer in cold weather. That makes <150 miles total
         | winter range with trailer with fully charged battery.
        
           | bgnn wrote:
           | Most petrol family cars are less than 1500 kg in Europe.
           | Americans are used to overweight cars and that's spreading to
           | here too. Though it's often a problem since most city parking
           | spots are smaller than huge cars like Tesla model Y.
        
             | formerly_proven wrote:
             | People don't use a Golf VII as a family car, they use SUVs.
             | And most of those are closer to 2 tons than 1.5.
        
               | trallnag wrote:
               | Based on your experience? My parents use their Golf 7 to
               | drive down south to Italy from Germany every other year.
               | Two adults, two teenagers, and one small dog fit in
               | better than into my dad's late 2000s Mercedes S class
        
               | lnsru wrote:
               | Half of Germany drove to Italy with their VW Beetles back
               | then. It's a traditional thing. However there are some
               | neighborhoods where with second child family buys their
               | Mercedes V class or VW T6. I prefer those over the ones
               | having Ford Fiesta as a family car.
        
               | sirsinsalot wrote:
               | Plenty use golf sized cars as family cars. Fairly normal
               | in the EU and UK
        
               | bgnn wrote:
               | Golf is THE family car. SUVs are not as common and often
               | driven by boomers who don't live with their children
               | anymore.
        
               | jcd000 wrote:
               | My family (of 4) car is a Kia Rio :). We live in an EU
               | city and do 300km trips every other weekend. Frequently
               | it is a tight fit, but one can manage.
        
         | bigtones wrote:
         | EV Battery packs are very heavy and dense. The ID4 has an
         | aerodynamic Cd score of 0.28 - Mach-E has a Cd of 0.29 and
         | Model Y has a Cd of 0.23, so its in the middle of the pack.
        
         | matt-p wrote:
         | So are 'most' petrol cars, people want space for a family plus
         | fair amount of luggage and end up at Model 3 size minimum to
         | cover that spec.
         | 
         | If you want a small EV what about;
         | 
         | Dacia Spring Electric
         | 
         | Leapmotor T03
         | 
         | Citroen e-C3
         | 
         | Vauxhall Frontera
         | 
         | Vauxhall Corsa
         | 
         | The list goes on. Renault 5 E-Tech
        
           | bcraven wrote:
           | Honda-e
           | 
           | VW id.2 all
        
             | tromp wrote:
             | The latter is not on the market yet, but planned to be in
             | 2025. Looking forward to that materializing.
        
               | lmz wrote:
               | The former is also discontinued.
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | Had it for just over a year, but so far happy with the Renault
         | Megane e-Tech[1]. It has a kerb weight of around 1700kg, of
         | which 400kg is the battery[2].
         | 
         | It's smaller than the ID.4 so fits in our small garage, great
         | turning radius which is nice in the city, and physical buttons
         | for the most important stuff like climate and media. It can tow
         | up to 900kg and supports a roof rack.
         | 
         | YMMV and such.
         | 
         | [1]: https://ev-database.org/car/1521/Renault-Megane-E-Tech-
         | EV60-...
         | 
         | [2]: https://cdn.group.renault.com/ren/gb/transversal-
         | assets/broc...
        
           | Intermernet wrote:
           | Honestly sounds like it's near the sweet spot. Seems to be
           | available in Australia as well. I'm not sure why I haven't
           | seen any on the road!
        
             | magicalhippo wrote:
             | Here in Norway they haven't been very aggressive with the
             | advertisements, which I guess "helps".
             | 
             | Unlike the Kia Nero EV and Hyundai Kona, two similar
             | competitors, the Megane e-Tech was designed to be 100% BEV
             | from the start, which I think is advantageous for an EV.
             | 
             | I'd say worth a look.
        
         | mulmen wrote:
         | Nissan Leaf?
        
         | atrettel wrote:
         | Carmakers have been tending towards SUV and crossover designs
         | because they make more money on them. The ID.4 is a crossover,
         | basically an SUV on a car frame rather than a truck frame. I
         | too wish they made more compact cars, but it seems that they
         | would rather produce what is more profitable for them rather
         | than what customers want.
        
           | hedgehog wrote:
           | Crossovers in that zone are a pretty reasonable compromise of
           | cost, handling, safety, and ergonomics. They have essentially
           | replaced station wagons and are mostly built the same way,
           | just a little taller.
        
             | atrettel wrote:
             | I don't disagree, but I just prefer compact cars. If I had
             | to buy a new vehicle and there were no compacts available,
             | I'd go for a crossover, but I won't like it.
        
               | hedgehog wrote:
               | I prefer to drive smaller cars but with stroller, kids'
               | car seats, etc there are some physical constraints on
               | getting everything to fit in a reasonable way.
        
             | freddie_mercury wrote:
             | I agree that they have replaced station wagons but as a
             | station wagon owner they aren't really even close to
             | interchangeable. I don't know why they replaced them.
             | 
             | Compare my Mazda 6 wagon to the Mazda CX-9 crossover. My
             | wagon is almost 25% more fuel efficient (7L/100km vs
             | 9L/100km) but also has MUCH more space. Minimum cargo space
             | of 506L vs 230L. Maximum cargo space of 1648L vs 810L. It
             | has a shorter wheelbase and smaller turning radius. It does
             | have worse towing 550kg vs 750kg but I almost never see
             | anyone towing anything.
        
               | hedgehog wrote:
               | Looking at the current Mazda lineup the replacement for
               | the Mazda6 (29 mpg) is the CX-50 which adds AWD and gets
               | 28 mpg or 38 mpg for the hybrid. I was suprised the
               | Mazda6 would have so much more cargo area but in the spec
               | sheet it lists 22 ft vs 31 for the CX-50. So to me the
               | CX-50 looks like more capacity in about the same physical
               | and carbon footprint, what am I missing here?
               | 
               | In Toyota's lineup the RAV4 is basically a tall Camry,
               | and in Subaru's lineup the Outback kind of just got a bit
               | taller and reclassified as a crossover alternative to the
               | Legacy. Of course these companies all have larger and
               | smaller options, but in general it seems like the
               | adoption of larger vehicles is not because smaller ones
               | aren't available, it's because for various reasons
               | customers want to buy them. In any case worrying about
               | exactly what vehicle mix is selling to me feels like
               | rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
        
           | nativeit wrote:
           | I'm not really disagreeing with your broader point, but
           | consumer demand has been tracking toward trucks and SUVs for
           | quite a while now. I would imagine there is a bit of a "tail
           | wagging the dog" situation there, and it's also probably
           | relevant that the average age of a new car buyer has been
           | rising as wealth distribution has skewed further upward.
           | 
           | But that's great news, if there's truly a gap in the famously
           | difficult automotive market, maybe a scrappy new player can
           | break through with a simple, small sedan--one that can be
           | made cheaply, and sold affordably--and then their supply
           | chain can be forced into a series of buy outs and hostile
           | takeovers, creating the next generation of wealthy donors to
           | political action groups. _It's the ciiiirrcle of liiiife_
           | etc..
        
           | robotelvis wrote:
           | I think part of the issue is that the people who want simple
           | non-SUVs are the people who mostly buy used cars.
           | 
           | The majority of people buy their cars used, but the car
           | makers make the cars they can sell to the minority who buy
           | new cars - and they have very different tastes. New car
           | buyers like gadgets and they like SUVs.
        
         | Kon-Peki wrote:
         | > Can someone tell me why all those new electric cars are so
         | poorly designed in terms of size and weight? Most of them
         | weight over 2t and have a large frontal area (VW ID.4 is the
         | prime example). I just want an economical family vehicle
         | (lightweight, hatchback design) and there aren't that many
         | options.
         | 
         | If you don't need anything right now, don't feel any pressure
         | to go out and buy something new. If you do, get whatever works
         | for you, even if that is an ICE vehicle. Don't feel bad; you're
         | doing what is best for your family.
         | 
         | But know that the "future" in EVs is likely closer than you
         | think. Look at the Canoo vehicles - I'm not saying buy one,
         | just look at it and think about the design. Look at the VW
         | ID.Buzz. Again, don't buy one (it's an overpriced usability
         | mess), just look at it and think about the design. You know
         | what is most interesting about it? The length is a foot to a
         | foot and a half less than the existing minivans on the market,
         | but it has more interior room. That _is_ interesting, isn 't
         | it?
         | 
         | Well, the Ford CEO said this in the Q2 2024 investor call [1]:
         | 
         | > ...Now when people hear about affordability and they think
         | about small and unaffordable, I'd like to address that now. We
         | are designing a super-efficient platform, leveraging innovation
         | across our product development, supply chain, and manufacturing
         | teams. With no engine or drivetrain, a smaller vehicle can have
         | a much roomier package, actually the interior package of a
         | class above with a small silhouette. That's a big advantage for
         | customers versus ICE. And we're focusing on very differentiated
         | vehicles priced under $40,000 or even $30,000.
         | 
         | And then in the Q3 2024 investor call [2]:
         | 
         | > we're deep into the design and engineering of our next-
         | generation vehicles. Boy! are we excited about these coming out
         | in the next few years. In 40 years in the industry, I've seen a
         | lot of game-changer products, but the mid-sized electric pickup
         | designed by our California team has got to be one of the most
         | exciting. It's incredible package and consumer technology for a
         | segment we know well. It matches the cost structure of any
         | Chinese auto manufacturer building in Mexico in the future. How
         | do we know that? Because 60% of the [BOM] (ph) has already been
         | quoted.
         | 
         | So, this pickup is the first one to come out, and that's not
         | what you are looking for. But the EVs that come after it may be
         | exactly what you are looking for. And of course Ford is not
         | going to be alone. All the car companies are going to be
         | working from this point of view. So, can you wait 4-5 years for
         | the EV that actually works for what you need? Perhaps your next
         | ICE car is your last ICE car?
         | 
         | [1] https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-
         | transcripts/2024/07/24/fo...
         | 
         | [2] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4730242-ford-motor-
         | company-...
        
         | UniverseHacker wrote:
         | I think the flat front is mostly design language to make the
         | car seem more "masculine" or SUVish, and is even more
         | noticeable because of the shorter hood on EVs.
         | 
         | The weight is just a consequence of current battery technology-
         | no way to get that down much without hurting the range.
         | 
         | Look at Aptera motors for an ultralight efficient EV.
        
         | mapt wrote:
         | * Crash testing & crumple zones. Going up against a "half ton"
         | MRAP in a electric velomobile is suicidal.
         | 
         | * Styling & consumer preferences. The SUV reigns supreme.
         | Partly because of CAFE's perverse incentives.
         | 
         | * CAFE isn't directly forcing anyone to optimize EVs, and "watt
         | hours per mile" is not widely demanded by consumers, because EV
         | charging is ~40% the cost of gas per mile and because EVs are
         | still exclusively a mid to upmarket thing. Everybody penny
         | pinching is driving a 2003 Toyota with >100k miles which has
         | appreciated in value over the past five years.
        
           | formerly_proven wrote:
           | The trend to SUVs also exists in countries where SUVs aren't
           | exempt from stuff similar to CAFE. Consumers _overwhelmingly_
           | prefer SUVs and large, heavy vehicles. They 're the single
           | most popular segment of cars in essentially any market that
           | can afford them.
           | 
           | I wish it weren't so, but the revealed preference of the
           | median car buyer is to simply buy as much car by the ton as
           | they can afford.
        
         | MobiusHorizons wrote:
         | I believe the reason is that batteries to make up the 200 mile
         | range people expect are just very heavy. I think older electric
         | vehicles with ~70mi range would have been substantially
         | lighter. I would wager the car you want was actually the
         | 2017-2019 E-Golf.
         | 
         | Modern highway safety standards also tend to increase the hight
         | of windows which tend to also make cars taller to not kill
         | visibility. Look at the 2019 Mazda 3 AWD redesign, especially
         | the hatchback. It looks squished compared to the previous years
         | because they didn't raise the vehicle height, but all the
         | windows start higher in the car body. That trend is true of ICE
         | vehicles as well though.
        
           | stahorn wrote:
           | E-golf had an updated battery in 2017, that increased the
           | capacity by 50%. The 2014 version was sold with 200km (125mi)
           | range, but the real range was closer to 125km (75mi). The
           | 2017 version was sold with a 300km (185mi) range, but 190km
           | (115mi) real range.
           | 
           | The range of both depend on if you drive in cold weather and
           | if you drive on a highway. I bought and E-golf in 2017 that I
           | drove long distance once on the highway when it was -20C
           | (-4F). I then got around one hour of driving and one hour of
           | charging... Do not recommend!
           | 
           | If you want more stats about the cars, this webpage is great:
           | 
           | 2014 version: https://ev-database.org/car/1040/Volkswagen-e-
           | Golf
           | 
           | 2017 version: https://ev-database.org/car/1087/Volkswagen-e-
           | Golf
        
         | froh wrote:
         | in a nutshell...
         | 
         | weight is somewhat compensated by recuperation and a
         | consequence of necessary battery weight for desired capacity /
         | travel reach.
         | 
         | and while wind resistance depends on shape and "front area",
         | front area actually is the cross section surface, the
         | silhouette if you wish, as seen from back or front.
         | 
         | thus a teardrop like shape has a large flat part at the front
         | but still it has near perfect, lowest resistance.
         | 
         | EVs reduce their front silhouette ("area") with a narrower
         | cabin, low overall height, cameras as mirrors on vans.
         | 
         | thats how you reduce "front area" silhouette.
         | 
         | the shape of these is aerodynamic AF
         | 
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/http://www.yanfa...
        
       | 3abiton wrote:
       | Can't wait to see this in GTA6 mod.
        
       | tromp wrote:
       | Can someone show what the most aerodynamic cars in the dataset
       | look like? Does it specify the drag coefficient? Curious to know
       | how many of the 8000 shapes reach < 2.0, should be at most a
       | handful.
        
       | Koala_ice wrote:
       | This is also available at https://caemldatasets.org/ with no
       | access restrictions.
        
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