[HN Gopher] How do I pay the publisher of a web page?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       How do I pay the publisher of a web page?
        
       Author : surprisetalk
       Score  : 49 points
       Date   : 2024-12-02 18:49 UTC (6 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (sethmlarson.dev)
 (TXT) w3m dump (sethmlarson.dev)
        
       | zoezoezoezoe wrote:
       | I think the way you support publishers is one of a few things
       | 
       | * they list a patreon or librepay or whatever and you support
       | them directly * They have ads and they ask you nicely to disable
       | your adblocker (as long as they are unobtrusive I'm fine with
       | this)
       | 
       | I think that's really it, if publishers dont give you a clear way
       | to support them, in my eyes, they are providing the service for
       | free.
        
       | johannes1234321 wrote:
       | Some people don't want to be paid. They do things as a hobby and
       | for fun. As soon as one is being paid there is a ned to publish
       | more and good quality stuff, which turns a fun project into work.
        
         | elashri wrote:
         | That is sad reality. As an example, I wish Sabine Hossenfelder
         | didn't have to leave academia. Her content (blog posts not
         | videos) were one of the ways I kept up with development in
         | theoretical physics. But now that she is a full time video
         | content creator, she is under pressure to publish click bait
         | and very questionable content. I understand that she is
         | catering to the audience but this is one example why alignment
         | of the incentives works. Before, she was earning her living as
         | a working physicist so she did not have to cater to anyone
         | actually and she produced very good content -with exceptions-
         | for years.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Avocations _can_ turn into a nice revenue stream if the stars
           | align. But online content almost certainly requires that you
           | really work at it and think about what you need to do to
           | boost revenue in ways that might not happen organically.
        
           | jasode wrote:
           | _> , I wish Sabine Hossenfelder didn't have to leave
           | academia. [...] I understand that she is catering to the
           | audience but this is one example why alignment of the
           | incentives works. Before, she was earning her living as a
           | working physicist so she did not have to cater to anyone
           | actually_
           | 
           | But this obscures the fact that she was still _" catering to
           | the audience"_ when working in academia as a paid physicist.
           | She was just _placating a different audience_ and worked on
           | topics she really didn 't think was groundbreaking just to
           | keep the grant money rolling in. The misalignment of
           | incentives just happened outside of Youtube.
           | 
           | Deep link to her explanation:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8&t=4m37s
           | 
           | A lot of viewers wish that "content creator" wasn't a thing
           | and people just did Youtube for free as a hobby.
           | Understandable. But what viewers don't realize is that it's
           | also actually saying this: _" Please continue being unhappy
           | in your crappy day job so you don't need to live off money
           | from Youtube ads or sponsorships."_
        
             | alpinisme wrote:
             | Her personal motivations make total sense and this isn't a
             | judgment of her, but your comment makes it sound a little
             | like misaligned incentives just switched places, but the
             | misaligned research incentives remain (and she doesn't do
             | research professionally anymore) and now she introduced a
             | new misalignment: the content creation business.
             | 
             | It's totally fair that emotionally she was done with one
             | and able better to continue work with the other, but
             | removing the hobby element actually did remove one set of
             | well aligned incentives and did not replace them with
             | another.
        
             | zusammen wrote:
             | _Please continue being unhappy in your crappy day job so
             | you don 't need to live off money from Youtube ads or
             | sponsorships._
             | 
             | The problem is that we shouldn't be a society where most
             | day jobs are crappy and where we accept that because people
             | who are "not entrepreneurial" deserve to suffer.
             | 
             | We could have been all sorts of things. We chose _Office
             | Space_ and then we chose influencer grift.
        
             | wkat4242 wrote:
             | Not all day jobs need to be crap of course. I enjoy mine
             | and I like to produce some content on the side.
             | 
             | It's hard to get people to find it though due to the
             | platforms all promoting professionals from which they earn
             | more. But on the other hand I don't really care either.
        
             | johannes1234321 wrote:
             | > But what viewers don't realize is that it's also actually
             | saying this: "Please continue being unhappy in your crappy
             | day job so you don't need to live off money from Youtube
             | ads or sponsorships."
             | 
             | But the reverse is also true: Not for everybody being
             | content creator is the dream job. Some like creating
             | something once in a while, but otherwise enjoy their life
             | and job.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | Agreed. If you don't think you'll bring in material revenue (by
         | your standards), it's often not worth collecting any at all.
        
         | troymc wrote:
         | The web already has lots of options for people who don't want
         | to be paid. That's not the problem!
         | 
         | The problem is that there's no web-standard way for people who
         | _do_ want to be paid to indicate how.
        
         | dangus wrote:
         | This also means that the people who want to be paid will tell
         | you exactly how on their page. E.g., all the "buy me a coffee"
         | links you can find on open source projects.
         | 
         | The author of this article wants a special HTML meta property
         | but we've already that solved: plain text and hyperlinks.
        
       | hkdobrev wrote:
       | humans.txt [1] could be an approach for this.
       | 
       | [1]: https://humanstxt.org/
        
       | rmccue wrote:
       | > I have money and I have a URL, how do I send money to the
       | publisher of that URL?
       | 
       | This question could easily be "I have money and I have a person's
       | name and address, how do I send money to them?"
       | 
       | The only way to do this consistently would be to mail them
       | physical cash, since there's no way to consistently send money
       | electronically across the world (and you'd have a currency
       | conversion problem too - if someone mailed me US$0.23, it's not
       | worth exchanging it).
       | 
       | Building micropayments infrastructure requires building broader
       | financial infrastructure, not just adding a meta tag. This can
       | use existing infrastructure to some extent, but it's a pretty big
       | challenge.
       | 
       | (For example, in Australia, you can send someone money if you
       | have their email address (via PayID), so you could bootstrap that
       | part - minus the international part.)
        
         | ysavir wrote:
         | I think the (not clearly stated) intention is for an automated
         | way to detect the pubisher's explicitly preferred method of
         | compensation. Which is a sensible request, since it can allow a
         | browser button/extension that sends you there with the click of
         | a button, rather than having to search the page (or a video)
         | for a mention of it.
         | 
         | Though in my experience, publishers and creators make it pretty
         | easy to find that information, so the use of this tech would be
         | very niche.
        
         | kuschku wrote:
         | > since there's no way to consistently send money
         | electronically across the world
         | 
         | In theory there'd be SWIFT, but that's too slow and expensive.
         | 
         | The EU has the SEPA, but few other countries actually care
         | about joining or replicating that success.
        
           | FinnKuhn wrote:
           | The EU is also working on a digital Euro [1] that is supposed
           | to roll out to the whole EU and support digital payments
           | without any fees. Let's see, if they succeed with that, but
           | if they do it would be great.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en
           | .ht...
        
         | m01 wrote:
         | > "I have money and I have a person's name and address, how do
         | I send money to them?"
         | 
         | Send a cheque?
        
           | Martinussen wrote:
           | I don't know about other places, but here there's no bank
           | that will turn that slip of paper into real money. I've never
           | even seen a cheque or chequebook in person, it's almost
           | exclusively mentioned by Americans (In my experience)
        
           | knorker wrote:
           | I got a cheque for $5 once. It would have cost about $40 to
           | cash it.
        
       | chr15m wrote:
       | Great idea.
        
       | tekchip wrote:
       | Isn't this the problem Brave browser set out to solve? It's just
       | that they did it with cryptocurrency so everyone shunned it.
       | https://brave.com/brave-rewards/
        
         | carlosjobim wrote:
         | No, they block legitimate ads on creator websites and then put
         | their own ads in front and offer creators a cut. It's an
         | outright racket and scam.
        
           | jorvi wrote:
           | It's so funny how the Brave haters will constantly outright
           | lie just to get their point.
           | 
           | > _Do Brave Ads replace ads on websites? What do Brave Ads
           | look like?_
           | 
           | > No, Brave Ads do not replace the ads that the Brave Browser
           | blocks on web pages (like banner ads). You can find a list of
           | Brave's ad formats here.
           | 
           | > _What do Brave Ads look like?_
           | 
           | > You can choose which ones you'd like to see: images on the
           | new tab page, cards in your Brave News feed, push
           | notifications, and others.
           | 
           | Creators also don't get "a" cut. Brave gives 70% of earnings
           | on ads to users, and those can then decide how much they
           | reward to the creators of whatever content they consume.
           | 
           | BAT being crypto is also nice because it automatically means
           | you can just buy BAT directly and support sites without
           | having to see a single ad or cumbersomely figure out how to
           | somehow donate to each site/creator directly.
        
             | dpkirchner wrote:
             | From https://archive.is/W0k4j (an archive of a page on
             | brave.com)
             | 
             | > Step Two: Brave Replaces Ads We recognize that ads pay
             | for most of our web content. Ads are not going away. So we
             | replace the bad ads with Brave Ads, which we use to pay
             | publishers and users.
             | 
             | Maybe they don't replace ads now but they seem to have done
             | it in the past. Or at least talked about doing it.
        
               | jorvi wrote:
               | (Other commenter already pointed it out).
               | 
               | Really man, drop the crusade. Look at Brave their tech
               | blog (Project Sugarcoat for example, something directly
               | meant to make page ad hiding more cosmetically pleasing).
               | Or the fact that their defaults are more private than
               | Firefox its defaults.
               | 
               | For the weird missteps they did in the past (appending
               | their affiliate link on crypto sites and one other
               | scandal that eludes me), they're a really good org /
               | product now.
        
               | rpdillon wrote:
               | That page is eight years old; this is a very early
               | iteration of the idea, if I recall correctly.
        
             | carlosjobim wrote:
             | I don't hate Brave, but blocking legitimate ads and then
             | putting in their own ads is a racket.
             | 
             | > Creators also don't get "a" cut. Brave gives 70% of
             | earnings on ads to users, and those can then decide how
             | much they reward to the creators of whatever content they
             | consume.
             | 
             | Ie, creators are offered a cut - in a roundabout way.
        
               | jorvi wrote:
               | It is not a racket when the website owners are mass-
               | injecting trackers and security risks into my browser.
               | Some egregious pages have 700+ (!!) ad partners.
               | 
               | Hell, it is the opposite of a racket because other
               | adblockers / adblocking people pay zilch. _That_ is the
               | racket. Any BAT user is a +70% gain.
               | 
               | I'll pay you. I won't compromise my devices for you.
        
               | rglullis wrote:
               | There is nothing "legitimate" about ads that track me and
               | that I would block anyway.
        
             | lancesells wrote:
             | I look at Brave as another business looking to take their
             | cut as a middleman between users and creators. It's an ad
             | network that takes the 30% cut like Apple does to apps
             | making over $1M.
             | 
             | I would much rather that creators who want to make money
             | decide what they want to sell, and how they want to sell
             | it. The web doesn't need a crypto tip jar layer.
        
               | rglullis wrote:
               | Brave does not take 30% of creators that receive BAT in
               | the rewards program.
        
         | wat10000 wrote:
         | Cryptocurrency might have been ok, but this is their own custom
         | currency. In other words, they're paying people in scrip. They
         | shouldn't be surprised that people don't like that.
        
           | rglullis wrote:
           | They started with BTC. Their token only came after they got
           | the feedback that people were not interested in parting ways
           | with their own crypto.
        
       | quaintdev wrote:
       | Browsers should have pay/tip button to support website owners.
       | And browser vendors should handle the payment. This would limit
       | ads and tracking as well which aligns with Mozilla goals. Can I
       | pitch this idea to Mozilla somewhere?
        
         | nkrisc wrote:
         | Who pays for that service?
        
           | quaintdev wrote:
           | The browser vendors can earn small commission from each
           | transaction. This ensures steady stream of income for them as
           | well. They have created a piece of public infrastructure that
           | is absolutely critical they should earn from direct payments
           | of their users instead of relying on single entity who may or
           | may not have their best interest at heart.
        
             | nkrisc wrote:
             | So if this became popular enough, then in a sense browser
             | makers would be gatekeeping who's allowed to receive
             | payments. Website owners could of course still show ads or
             | independently earn money other ways, but wouldn't browser
             | makers then be incentivized to tailor the browser
             | experience to favor sites that earn them a commission?
        
         | kelvinjps10 wrote:
         | But they don't have the infrastructure to reveive the payments
         | internationally,(apple and google do) but there wouldn't be a
         | conflict of interest for example google with their ads
         | businesses and imagine apple charges 30% for every transaction
         | like the do on the apple store
        
         | EricRiese wrote:
         | You're describing Brave
        
       | noman-land wrote:
       | I know this forum hates crypto but this is very doable with ENS.
       | You can both point to content via an ENS domain and also link to
       | a wallet address.
       | 
       | https://ens.domains/
       | 
       | Come to think of it you can do this with normal DNS by just
       | setting a wallet address in a TXT record but that's not
       | integrated into anything. It's just text.
        
         | sneak wrote:
         | We don't hate crypto, there are just a loud bunch that like to
         | complain about other people using it. Lots of us are building
         | and using daily.
        
       | gr4vityWall wrote:
       | I don't see much of a point. If someone makes a website and wants
       | people to be able to send money to them for that, a link on that
       | website should work just fine. I'm failing to see the benefit of
       | a HTML meta tag related to that.
       | 
       | > I wish I could click a button to easily send a "tip" to someone
       | who created something I enjoy or to browse other options for
       | supporting them.
       | 
       | I believe most people invested in getting donations already have
       | a similar button on their page.
        
         | Drakim wrote:
         | Plus, to me it seems like this could be ripe for abuse. If you
         | are reading a great post on something, how do you know if the
         | HTML meta tag actually would go to the author of that post, or
         | the hosting platform instead (who sneakily puts in that meta
         | tag on all their hosted content).
         | 
         | With an explicit button, you have to read and acknowledge who
         | you are giving to.
        
       | butz wrote:
       | Worst part about such small payments is that intermediary, that
       | will process the payment, might get 50% or even more of said
       | payment, leaving not much to receiver. If someone really wants
       | support, they will either have a link to "merch" store, or links
       | to Patreon, Kofi or some other platform. Worth noting, that
       | content creators usually seek recurring payments, not a single
       | tip.
        
       | paxys wrote:
       | The open web is a platform for freeloaders. Since day 1 the
       | expectation is that whatever is accessible will be free. And
       | whatever isn't will be made free by whatever means necessary. Web
       | content creators/publishers don't bother with micropayments
       | infrastructure because no one is going to pay. Ads are a proven
       | business model and they are going to stay.
       | 
       | There are other platforms where micropayments have in fact been
       | solved - see Twitch, OnlyFans, YouTube, Substack, Patreon, IAP on
       | iOS/Android, WeChat, Gaming. That's where the innovation in the
       | space will be because that's where the money is.
        
         | idle_zealot wrote:
         | > That's where the innovation in the space will be because
         | that's where the money is.
         | 
         | Agreed completely, assuming that "innovation" is a euphemism
         | for "grifting". These platforms are completely dominated by
         | rent-seeking and borderline fraudulent garbage. I'd take a web
         | ring over the front page of the App Store in any context.
        
       | grues-dinner wrote:
       | This is the one thing that I actually thought cryptocurrency
       | would help - getting small adhoc payments out from under the
       | bootheel of Mastercard and Visa, and especially for international
       | transfers that cross between, say, the MC/Visa duopoly regions
       | into other ones like the Asian ecosystems.
       | 
       | But instead it's slow, inconsistent, inconvenient, balkanised,
       | dripping with scams, criminals and bad actors and still involves
       | substantial transfer fees and volatility on top of that. At this
       | point it's a market for lemons: any new cryptocurrency venture is
       | almost entirely indistinguishable from something that already
       | ended up being at best a non-starter, but often just a scam.
       | 
       | As a vehicle for speculation, arbitrage and scams, it's a
       | masterpiece. As a _currency_ (you know, like in the name), it 's,
       | put lightly, not great, especially if you live in the developed
       | world.
        
         | interactivecode wrote:
         | Fully agree. We should just settle on a single internet
         | currency thats fast, interoperable and not a market for
         | speculation.
         | 
         | Hmm perhaps we don't need more types of currency? Perhaps it's
         | better to push deep integration of modern banking changes like
         | psd2, psd3 and others. Across the whole internet. So everyone
         | can just do regular payments with their own bank in a safe and
         | protected way, and hopefully with less intermediaries.
        
           | grues-dinner wrote:
           | Yes, indeed. The thing is MasterCard, Visa and all their
           | foreign counterparts actually _do_ provide a lot of value in
           | keeping the ecosystem relatively safe for normal people. When
           | I see a contactless touch point in a shop, I know it 's
           | almost certainly legit. If they didn't, people would just use
           | cash.
           | 
           | So there's probably always going to be some kind of transfer
           | or network access fee. It's just that it very much not a
           | competitive market place.
           | 
           | Opening up the system to competition, but still within a
           | regulatory framework that prevents it degenerating into a
           | Wild West hotbed of scamming does seem like a good way to
           | achieve some of that. Certainly, the vaunted "free market"
           | should be ensuring that the price of a transaction is pretty
           | close to the cost of providing it, and it clearly is not
           | currently.
           | 
           | The problem, or feature, depending on who you ask, is that
           | basically only governments can provide that kind of
           | regulation. Which will always then inject a level of
           | geopolitics into things like which countries you're allowed
           | to buy your blog posts from. And for governments who listen
           | to business over citizens also leads to capture and
           | subversion of the system.
        
           | micropayer wrote:
           | The problem is https://xkcd.com/927/, but one specific way it
           | could work is via solana with the phantom wallet, which I've
           | documented at http://micropayments.fyi.
           | 
           | It's currently a horribly complex setup, but the rails
           | _exist_ , it just needs a shitton of dev work to make the UX
           | better, and then adoption.
        
           | klntsky wrote:
           | Read about chain abstraction and account abstraction for EVM.
        
         | cxr wrote:
         | Keybase's integration with XLM was pretty great. It's too bad
         | the community revolted for reasons that amounted to a form of
         | begging the question about the things you list here.
        
         | havnagiggle wrote:
         | There are options, however just saying anything is going to get
         | you labeled as a shill heh. You're right that any new crypto is
         | indistinguishable, but that is part of the risk in trying to
         | outlast the rest. Some crypto that have survived should be
         | worth more for hitting some of these milestones, but
         | unfortunately that still isn't reflected in the top 10/20/100
         | because people are so desperate they throw cash at anything
         | that moves.
         | 
         | The convenience of the scamming is partly why it _is_ a
         | solution to this problem: people can transfer value as fast as
         | they desire, and it works. There is also just a problem off on
         | and off-boarding where you get hit by Visa/Mastercard level of
         | fees. So is it really solving the problem at that point?
         | 
         | One area I would like to see is some kind of governed/regulated
         | profit sharing. Basically giving your votes to
         | content/production and this puts it on the books for some
         | fraction of payment. You get X shares to distribute to content
         | regularly. It would also be helpful if our government would
         | provide support for independent producers where there's a clear
         | trackable benefit (e.g. open source libraries that a ton of
         | people rely on and a business can say "yes I need this, help
         | them keep doing it").
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | I have a friend claiming bitcoin is a "store of value, tool for
         | the de-banked (politically right), hedge against the rapidly
         | inflating dollar, more valuable than gold" (paraphrasing). He
         | further claims that "bitcoin can't be faked like 'uninspected'
         | gold reserves" that are supposedly just "painted iron ingots".
         | 
         | I want to scream. This is a speculative investment with more
         | bad actors involved than the SEC has investigated throughout
         | its entire history.
         | 
         | I hate these bitcoin boom cycles. It's like all the lessons
         | learned immediately get forgotten.
         | 
         | Him: "But this time is different. Last time the Democrats were
         | holding it back. Trump is going to make a strategic crypto
         | reserve. Trump and his allies are all pro-crypto. The
         | Democratic party was trying to regulate it away."
         | 
         | I guess this will be the next lesson.
        
           | jeremyjh wrote:
           | Notice he isn't claiming its a currency, even if we take all
           | the claims at face value. Apparently he is not alone though
           | as the value has climbed 33% since the election. I had not
           | even heard of this fantasy of a TrUmP crypto boom.
        
           | m348e912 wrote:
           | He might be right in some ways about Bitcoin but he fails to
           | take into account that the price of Bitcoin may be inflated
           | by Tether, a stable coin traded in large numbers for Bitcoin.
           | New tether is minted by the billions, and has questionable
           | auditing and oversight, and is used to buy Bitcoin on the
           | open market.
           | 
           | There a couple of ways that the price of Bitcoin could drop
           | precipitously and the unraveling of Tether is one of them.
        
         | hugs wrote:
         | I think this is a good application for the Lightning Network,
         | specifically if people use a Lightning Address where the
         | address uses the same domain as the URL of the webpage. There
         | are a lot of people in Lightning world who also hate scams (and
         | any other crypto coin for that matter) and just want to make
         | this work as money (and already have).
         | 
         | A real-world example where Lightning Network is already working
         | is Nostr. It's not hard to get a Nostr client with built-in
         | Lightning functionality (like Primal) and start "zapping" tiny
         | payments to others.
         | 
         | I'm not affiliated with Primal, just a fan, and a developer who
         | wants to see a system like this work.
        
           | kordlessagain wrote:
           | Don't forget the l402 stuff!
        
         | atoav wrote:
         | I am not sure if people are aware, but with SEPA you can
         | transfer money to other peoples account without any fee
         | (depending on where you live of course).
         | 
         | Only downside is that you have to reveal your account data
         | online.
         | 
         | I know a guy who runs an online shop with a single product and
         | it is a static website saying "Transfer 12 EUR to the following
         | bank account with the following subject and your name/address"
         | -- apparently this works quite well since the mid 90s. The
         | website still uses frames for its layout and has animated gif
         | flags.
        
           | unilynx wrote:
           | SEPA is not free - it's just often free for consumers (and
           | likely until your bank considers your usage patterns to be
           | 'too business like')
           | 
           | and it can't be free.. even though the systems might have no
           | further marginal cost per transaction, banks still need to do
           | anti-money laundering checks, and someone's gotta pay for
           | that
        
         | klntsky wrote:
         | Have you seen the fees on ethereum L2s? Your opinion may be
         | slightly outdated, I wouldn't consider a single digit number of
         | cents a large fee
        
           | michaelt wrote:
           | I buy a magazine where $3 gets you 114 short articles, each
           | about 1/3rd of a page. So I'm paying 2.6C/ per article, if I
           | read every single one.
           | 
           | Some people dream of 'micropayments' at a similar price
           | point. Being able to buy a single article for about 2.6C/.
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | And that's probably around the price point that people mean
             | by micropayments. It's not $1 per article. And that's
             | probably an exhausting amount of mental transaction costs
             | as Clay Shirky observed ages ago and probably not a
             | sustainable revenue stream for producers.
             | 
             | For consumers, a subscription model seems to fit the bill
             | for most people but some media are apparently better suited
             | than others.
        
             | cadamsau wrote:
             | True, but that's made possible by the aggregator (the
             | publisher who's printed the magazine)
             | 
             | This dream of eliminating that middle-person is still a
             | dream.
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | My dream is for ~5c micropayments, where the money goes
             | either goes to the publisher or a charity depending on if I
             | liked it after the fact. Basically fighting low quality
             | clickbait without the publisher being able to tell which I
             | specifically did.
        
           | daveguy wrote:
           | Single digit cents is not a large fee, but blockchain fees
           | are dynamic. And the more traffic, the more expensive. I
           | would not appreciate if that 2.6 cents suddenly became $2.60.
           | Also the maximum number of transactions for Bitcoin (not sure
           | etherium) is about 10/s. Processors like Visa and MasterCard
           | process thousands of transactions per second. And if every
           | article read is another transaction that would need at least
           | 1-2 orders of magnitude more transactions. The way I see it,
           | blockchain is a broken model for micro payments. If I am
           | missing something, please let me know.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | There were probably some useful concepts and possibilities in
         | the blockchain space but they became so intermixed with the
         | crypto-scum that the whole area became toxic.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | And one effect of that is that the energy/investment level of
           | legit promoters of blockchain has gone down while other
           | promoters have stayed the same or increased.
        
       | sneak wrote:
       | This is a relatively straightforward problem to solve. There is a
       | "payment required" HTTP status code and lightning network
       | micropayments are very easy to set up and use.
       | 
       | The problem is that payments that cannot be centrally surveilled
       | and centrally vetoed (without burden of proof of probable cause,
       | usually) are actually illegal to implement.
       | 
       | To do anything like this requires strong ID and KYC for payer and
       | recipient and that isn't what bare URLs and the web are about.
       | 
       | All of the cool applications of online payments that would spread
       | quickly and efficiently are illegal.
       | 
       | It's truly sad.
        
         | csumtin wrote:
         | I think another problem with micropayments is competing with
         | free is hard. Say you have the best lightning paywall with an
         | amazing UX where it's super easy and automatic to pay a creator
         | a few sats. Most people assume the problem is user's don't want
         | to pay but it's actually publishers who won't put up
         | micropayments on their content. Here's why: for a big
         | publisher, adding a lightning paywall is a big risk which may
         | lose them their audience. For small publisher's, they don't
         | care if 10 people send 10 sats, all they care about is becoming
         | a big publisher
        
           | knorker wrote:
           | > it's actually publishers who won't put up micropayments on
           | their content
           | 
           | Won't, or can't?
           | 
           | Do you have a good article about how to set up a paywall or
           | tip jar for small transactions, with a clear description of
           | what percentage goes to middlemen and (mainly in the case of
           | proof of work) how much externality cost it incurs?
           | 
           | I would like to be able to pay $cents or even $dollar for
           | instant access to an article, but only if X% actually goes to
           | the recipient (I don't know what X is, yet), and I would lead
           | by example on my own content. (though most likely tip jar,
           | not paywall)
        
       | waxpancake wrote:
       | The Web Monetization API was another recent effort to try to make
       | this, the latest of many attempts. See previous HN discussion:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39274455
       | 
       | My guess is that 1. there's virtually no demand from potential
       | supporters for a more convenient way to pay creators than
       | existing payment/subscription apps, and 2. relatively few
       | creators have direct control over their own internet presence
       | anymore, so any solution that requires modifying a web page is
       | dead in the water.
       | 
       | Any new attempt to pay creators that doesn't factor these two
       | realities in will likely fail, because it just makes things
       | harder than existing solutions.
        
       | uxhacker wrote:
       | Is this the same issue with content creators being reimbursed for
       | generative ai?
        
       | montenegrohugo wrote:
       | Honestly this is one of the main usecases of crypto, in my
       | opinion. And it's only in 2024 where the transaction costs are
       | cheap enough that it's worth it.
       | 
       | Still, fragmentation of crypto makes the whole experience shitty
       | - but we've been working on this to fix that:
       | https://docs.peanut.to/checkout-api
        
       | rhplus wrote:
       | We're three decades in with the web and it's pretty clear that
       | voluntary payment nudges don't work. Most people won't pay for
       | free content _after_ they've consumed it. Humans need an extra
       | incentive to pay for free content.
       | 
       | This is why so many sponsorship platforms are effectively
       | subscription models with additional exclusive content or early
       | access. And for that to work, you need more than just a payment
       | button, you need a content publishing platform that will handle
       | all the subs and content gating.
        
         | wat10000 wrote:
         | I don't think payment friction has been reduced nearly enough
         | to make that statement. If it was possible to click a button to
         | instantly send ten cents to the creator of an article, and
         | people still didn't do it, then we could conclude that it
         | doesn't work. But we're _extremely_ far from that now.
        
         | etskinner wrote:
         | I think you're missing a small yet significant portion of
         | people who _will_ pay for content after consuming it. Off the
         | top of my head I 've "tipped" after the fact for: An awesome
         | free work time recording app, "free" walking tours when I'm
         | traveling, free online chess, Wikipedia -- all after using
         | them.
        
       | kelvinjps10 wrote:
       | Sorry, but I don't really see the problem, I mean someone that
       | wants to get paid will make sure to let you know where to pay
       | them.
        
       | micropayer wrote:
       | You'd need everyone to setup the rails for it to work smoothly,
       | but it can. I've documented one way this could work at
       | http://micropayments.fyi
        
       | havnagiggle wrote:
       | Seems fairly simple to have a smart contract do a DNS validation
       | to unlock funds. For example, someone sends to a contract "$1 to
       | example.com". Then the URL owner publishes either a TXT file or
       | DNS record that has a list of crypto wallet addresses. Contract
       | then forwards the payments. You could even make the keys just the
       | ISO codes for each currency.
       | 
       | It's as good of a proof for TLS certs, but it's susceptible to
       | DNS hijacking, etc. Make the contract immutable to meet
       | tornado.cash standard. There are already oracles for DNS lookups
       | so this contract might already exist somewhere.
       | 
       | Add in a couple of features:
       | 
       | 1. Allow tracking per domain so publishers can know that there is
       | a demand to set it up on their end.
       | 
       | 2. Allow refunds in case the publisher never opens it up.
        
       | EricRiese wrote:
       | Isn't the solution for Patreon et al to offer embeddable widgets
       | that implement the Payments Request API?
        
       | mediumsmart wrote:
       | You scan the qrcode on the page which will launch your banking
       | app that initiates the transfer and fills out the details leaving
       | for you to enter the amount and the fingerprint confirmation to
       | send it off.
        
       | SethMLarson wrote:
       | Author here! My primary motivation is to tip the hundreds of web
       | creators that I enjoy every year without linearly increasing my
       | spend (I can only afford so many $3/month Patreons).
       | 
       | It's manual for now, but the computer tracks who to pay next, who
       | to stop paying, and give you links to speed up the process.
       | 
       | See: https://fosstodon.org/@sethmlarson/113575887792359030
       | 
       | Happy to answer questions :)
        
       | edward wrote:
       | It's worth noting that Ted Nelson's visionary Xanadu project had
       | actually addressed this issue decades ago. In the original design
       | of Project Xanadu, rule 9 states "Every document can contain a
       | royalty mechanism at any desired degree of granularity to ensure
       | payment on any portion accessed, including virtual copies
       | ('transclusions') of all or part of the document." This suggests
       | a foresighted approach to content monetisation which the modern
       | web, in many ways an unfinished hypertext prototype, still lacks.
       | Nelson's idea was to embed financial transactions directly into
       | the fabric of document interchange, an integration not yet
       | realised in today's digital content landscape.
       | 
       | See
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu#Original_17_rul...
        
       | fjfaase wrote:
       | The European Union is working on a standard for QR-code payments
       | [1]. In the Netherlands, most banking app already understand QR-
       | code for payments. There are serviced that offer a possibility to
       | ask for a payment without a specified amount that do not the
       | reveal the bank account of the requester.
       | 
       | If this could be turned into a world wide standard, one could add
       | a link to a QR code in a web page to request for donations. One
       | should realize that there are very different payments systems in
       | the world and that there are payment companies, think credit card
       | companies, that have good reasons to resist these kind of global
       | standards.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/document-
       | library/guid...
        
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