[HN Gopher] Mistakes as a new manager
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Mistakes as a new manager
        
       Author : Sharpie4679
       Score  : 282 points
       Date   : 2024-12-06 16:56 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (terriblesoftware.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (terriblesoftware.org)
        
       | eastbound wrote:
       | List is toi short. I'd add: Posture.
       | 
       | Everyone wants to be the benevolent manager, especially if there
       | is enough money for everyone, and especially in these times where
       | collaboration and positive management are touted. But you have to
       | keep a carrot and a leash on the employees.
       | 
       | My first employees got a 33% raise the first year things were
       | good. Long story short: None of them are here anymore and we're
       | still scrambling to recover from the mess they've created by
       | being lazy.
       | 
       | Now people struggle to get a few percent salary increase. It eats
       | me to my core, but I want them to get my product out.
        
         | chasd00 wrote:
         | heh i will say being a parent helps with being a manager. You
         | really understand the carrot/stick balance as a parent.
        
           | dowager_dan99 wrote:
           | true! I'm not really kidding when I "joke" that being a
           | father of three has helped shape my management style. The
           | value systems and overall approach are really similar :)
        
         | Joel_Mckay wrote:
         | I have to admit I initially hired a few Papered Posers, and it
         | was a mistake to pay them 2.4x higher than market rate to
         | ensure the project would reach conclusion on schedule.
         | 
         | The lessons we learned:
         | 
         | 1. "Manage or be managed...": your first lesson is people will
         | try to manipulate those in positions of authority regardless of
         | competency. i.e. the idea of "goodwill" being the true core
         | product can escape the irrationally ambitious/sycophantic.
         | 
         | 2. No amount of money can make someone care about company
         | projects. The worker may be interested in the project, or is
         | simply there for the wrong reasons. Remember you want to keep
         | employees content, but a "kingdom of kings" is unsustainable.
         | 
         | 3. People can postpone something until tomorrow indefinitely.
         | Thus, pay very close attention to projected deliverable times.
         | 
         | 4. Fire someone for being unproductive according to a defined
         | workmanship-standard as soon as possible. It will notify the
         | rest of staff you are not there to play games, and stupid
         | behavior will have consequences. Mostly effective with Jr staff
         | using ChatGPT to try and BS the world like any other con.
         | 
         | 5. Delegation? Just initially run trial contracts with
         | potential staff first for each project deliverable. Failure to
         | deliver on time means they don't get another dime, or a second
         | chance to be unaccountable for their behavior.
         | 
         | 6. Entrenched incompetence: organizations have their own
         | emergent structure, and it will usually drift back to the same
         | dysfunctional patterns/designs.
         | 
         | 7. Redacted
         | 
         | 8. try to leave things slightly better than when you arrived.
         | 
         | 9. Managers usually can never be a normal employee again.
         | People subconsciously fear they cannot control authority, and
         | will prefer to hire someone easier to "handle".
         | 
         | Best regards, =3
        
           | KerrAvon wrote:
           | You may wish to talk to someone to evaluate whether the
           | company you work for might be completely dysfunctional-- none
           | of that list sounds like it's coming from a healthy place.
           | 
           | > 9. Managers usually can never be a normal employee again.
           | People subconsciously fear they cannot control authority, and
           | will prefer to hire someone easier to "handle".
           | 
           | This is usually not the case at a FAANG, for whatever it's
           | worth. Multiple people I know have voluntarily moved back to
           | IC from management positions. It's not that unusual for
           | senior devs to try managing and figure out that they don't
           | like it (whether or not they're good at it) and then move
           | back into being a highly regarded IC.
        
             | Joel_Mckay wrote:
             | My personal experience with titles has always been
             | complicated.
             | 
             | By the time a corporation has reached FAANG scale, they
             | become boring and ultimately immutable out of necessity. I
             | find it sad many folks dream of joining that drudgery,
             | inventing nothing, and gambling on asinine business plans.
             | =3
        
           | osigurdson wrote:
           | >> Failure to deliver on time means they don't get another
           | dime
           | 
           | "On time" can be achieved by over estimating. As a
           | hypothetical, dev A estimates that a project will take a year
           | and completes it in 6 months. Dev B estimates 1 month for the
           | same project and completes it in 3.
           | 
           | Companies that focus too much on things being "on time"
           | ultimately get the "nothing is worth doing" corporate
           | culture.
        
             | Joel_Mckay wrote:
             | Actually, sometimes it means hiring rank amateurs, and
             | training them to reliably complete tasks like a real
             | business. Understanding the time constraint would be lower
             | for Jr, and thus the equivalent pay scale will be less
             | lucrative... but it is up to individuals to decide their
             | own work ethics.
             | 
             | Using PERT deliverable/vertices redundancies is often
             | necessary for projects no one has seen before:
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_evaluation_and_review
             | _...
             | 
             | Note, the simple system uses probabilistic time estimates
             | of key deliverables, considers redundancy, and explicitly
             | mitigates teams that introduce liabilities.
             | 
             | If it put people on the moon, than I figured it was good
             | enough for most of my ridiculous projects. Have a great day
             | =3
             | 
             | Rule #17: "Always listen to the person that signs your
             | paycheck. Everyone has an opinion, but some opinions are
             | more profitable than others"
        
               | osigurdson wrote:
               | I think the PERT chart is pretty accurate. The issue is
               | typically predicting what all of the nodes on graph will
               | be ends up being a waste of time. Instead, there are
               | really just two points: current state and desired state.
               | It is better to spend time clearly articulating the
               | desired state so that everyone really understands it.
               | Then incentivize people to get there as quickly as
               | possible.
        
               | Joel_Mckay wrote:
               | I think our perspectives differ slightly, as I really
               | don't care to micromanage adults that know better.
               | Notably, the fixed cost of development is far less of a
               | concern than long-term deployment, support, and
               | maintenance costs.
               | 
               | Probably a ROWE would be a similar modern equivalent...
               | 
               | Have a nice day, =3
        
         | Bjartr wrote:
         | How were things good if there was a mess?
        
       | otteromkram wrote:
       | > "Where's my dopamine?"
       | 
       | I'm not in management, but couldn't OP become a working manager?
       | Might depend on the size of their team and demands of the new
       | role, but I've worked with managers who wear their IC hat on
       | occasion and thought it was a positive value-add for the group as
       | a whole.
        
         | 98codes wrote:
         | Every manager I've ever had that couldn't let go of their IC
         | hat also had a pile of manager hat work that wasn't ever
         | getting done.
        
           | justsomeshmuck wrote:
           | What sort of manager work was ignored?
        
         | icedchai wrote:
         | For small teams (like, 5 people max) that may make sense. It
         | really depends on the organization. With some orgs, you're
         | going to meetings all day and there's no time to focus.
        
           | dowager_dan99 wrote:
           | for these IC/leaders a big mistake is taking on critical path
           | work, then blocking everyone else.
        
           | sumedh wrote:
           | > With some orgs, you're going to meetings all day and
           | there's no time to focus.
           | 
           | Let's be honest here, some of those meetings could have been
           | done over chat conversation.
        
             | icedchai wrote:
             | Absolutely! But who is going to really admit this?
        
         | dowager_dan99 wrote:
         | For team leads, yes - to some degree. It is really hard to get
         | the balance right, and even harder to step out of one of those
         | worlds as your responsibilities grow.
        
         | starky wrote:
         | This is generally a bad idea. I never know when I'm going to
         | get pulled into something that will take my attention away from
         | the task. The only times I really do that anymore is if the
         | task is not time critical or if it is something that I know I
         | could be picked up by others in any state without any issue.
        
       | TripleChecker wrote:
       | Delegation was one I struggled with a lot in the early days. Even
       | as the CEO, I was reluctant to give up my customer service
       | responsibilities of manning the inboxes. Eventually, I understand
       | that even if someone handled it only 80-90% as well, that would
       | be much better for the company than having me do it.
        
         | chasd00 wrote:
         | Delegation is so hard, i struggle constantly and I'm
         | technically a "Sr. Manager". When the project is up against
         | deadline pressure, it's so tempting to do something yourself
         | that only takes you a day vs delegating to someone else and
         | they spin on it for 3 and screw it up at the end anyway.
         | Inevitably you become the bottleneck when a wave of escalations
         | or other management tasks come down the pipe but there's a pile
         | of actual work you decided to take on yourself half done too.
        
           | dowager_dan99 wrote:
           | I moved up to Director this year, and explicitly called out
           | that if I needed to give up any more direct interaction with
           | ICs and "contact time" with the real builders I had probably
           | topped out. I've mitigated this a lot with an awesome team of
           | leads and managers, and a (hopefully good kind of) lazy, non-
           | prescriptive management style.
        
           | roenxi wrote:
           | > vs delegating to someone else and they spin on it for 3 and
           | screw it up at the end anyway.
           | 
           | If that is happening more than twice in a 6 month period you
           | need to do a post-mortem on your management style, something
           | is wrong. Spinning on a task is already a bad sign pointing
           | at a problem that can be solved at the management level.
        
           | xandrius wrote:
           | Sounds like there are some fundamental process/team issues
           | going on. If a team cannot be trusted to deliver, superman
           | always coming in to save the day shouldn't be the solution.
        
       | nineteen999 wrote:
       | "Mistakes I made as a new manager which you won't necessarily
       | make because all humans are different"
        
         | Ferret7446 wrote:
         | Everyone is different, yes, but people are >99% similar. We all
         | go through the same developmental stages, perhaps at different
         | times, and we exhibit millions of the same psychological
         | biases.
        
         | anotheracc88 wrote:
         | The mistakes are common. Almost tropes.
         | 
         | It would be like golf swing or skiing mistakes. Every
         | instructor knows em.
        
       | localghost3000 wrote:
       | This misses the single biggest mistake every new manager makes:
       | avoiding hard conversations with your reports. If you start
       | managing folks you were recently in the trenches with this can be
       | VERY hard. These are your comrades after all! You want them to
       | like you. It's all very natural. Sadly it is the single biggest
       | cause for dissatisfaction I've seen on a given team. Being
       | unwilling to give honest, direct feedback results in
       | underperforming teams and unhappy reports. It's counterintuitive
       | but very important to get right as a manager. The big "AHA!!"
       | moment for me was when I realized you need to speak to behaviors
       | and outcomes not character. So instead of "you're sloppy" you say
       | something like "I've noticed quality issues in your code recently
       | that's resulted in some rollbacks. Can we talk about how we can
       | address that?". Involving them in the solution and explaining why
       | it matters. It makes all the difference and folks ironically
       | respect and like you more for it.
        
         | steerpike wrote:
         | 100% agree with this. I would say that the other highly likely
         | mistake new managers make is trying to code their way out of
         | problems. It makes sense, right? Previously when you're an IC
         | and a project ran into issues you could just "code harder" and
         | get through it, but that's rarely the right solution when
         | you're a manager and will likely exacerbate the problem itself
         | if you disappear into the trenches trying to code your way
         | through a critical path. Your role is no longer primarily
         | solving coding problems it's solving people problems.
        
           | anotheracc88 wrote:
           | Indeed. Purposefully stay off the critical path! Do coding
           | that helps you keep up with what people are talking about.
           | Not coding that is urgent!
        
             | ad_hockey wrote:
             | I made that mistake as a new manager by picking up a small
             | but important task in an area I knew well. I thought it
             | would help unblock the team, but I didn't realise I was
             | about to go into three days of back to back meetings. After
             | the third stand-up in a row of reporting zero progress I
             | sheepishly reassigned the ticket to someone else, and
             | didn't make that mistake again.
             | 
             | Refactors, doc fixes, low priority bug fixes, and tech debt
             | are all fair game for managers to pick up. I do think it's
             | important to keep your hand in.
        
           | osigurdson wrote:
           | If you are not going to add anything technically, you should
           | probably have 20+ reports.
        
             | diatone wrote:
             | It depends!
        
         | bobsomers wrote:
         | Completely agree. This is excellent advice.
        
         | roenxi wrote:
         | I got the impression that when he says "couple of years" he's
         | talking about the low-end of the word couple. The other thing
         | in the article that jumps out is the conclusion where he says
         | that a team that is shipping and happy is enough to be crushing
         | it.
         | 
         | That isn't really enough in my experience. There are 3
         | questions - is the team happy? Are they shipping? Is what they
         | are shipping valuable? - and I've seen a lot of new managers
         | are so overwhelmed that they forget about number 3 and a fair
         | chunk of people end up unemployed because sooner or later the
         | bean counters figure out that the team isn't actually
         | productive.
         | 
         | This article, overall, doesn't identify achieving excellent
         | outcomes as something he got wrong at first. I suspect either
         | he is a natural manager or it is a mistake that is still being
         | made. Probably the latter based on the other mistakes
         | identified. The journey I've seen usually goes from lost ->
         | controlling external perceptions of success -> oh I need to
         | actually succeed and it isn't what I thought.
        
           | choppaface wrote:
           | > Is what they are shipping valuable?
           | 
           | That's indeed critical, but most Director-level managers and
           | below have very little control of how well the business model
           | serves the OKRs. Yes the OKRs need to be achieved and help
           | make the business work, but e.g. if the business model's
           | margins are just too tepid or if the VC's expected revenue
           | growth (exponential?) will never actually realize, then there
           | is really zero _material_ value to the shipped product. Hence
           | the focus on a happy team that's shipping, because at least
           | that provides some _technological_ value. And build a network
           | you can bring to your next gig--- because _that's_ what gets
           | you the next job.
           | 
           | There are rare cases where a team might discover a new
           | business model or impress a whale customer, and then the
           | business model fundamentally changes.
           | 
           | Yes there is risk the "bean counters" or CFO / COO office
           | will want to cut the cord (especially now tech hiring is in a
           | recession). But tech moves fast; those bean counters will
           | likely end up owning shares of a zombie in the next 5-7
           | years. And their game is to cash out, not build a future.
           | 
           | And if the business model actually works, then keep at those
           | OKRs and everybody should win. Good business models are where
           | stupid can succeed; the team has the right levers.
        
         | brailsafe wrote:
         | I agree with the sentiment and importance of addressing these
         | things, or dealing with conflicts in-general, but I disagree
         | with the tone somewhat and disagree with the notion that you're
         | not in the trenches with them, but it depends on what trenches
         | means to whoever it's relevant to. I feel like many new
         | managers know they'll need to deal with this, but never
         | developed their abilities prior to being a manager, and don't
         | realize that just because the conversation happens, doesn't
         | mean it produces _valuable_ outcomes, breeds respect, or means
         | anyone will like the way you approached it, or even that you
         | were as vulnerable or honest as you thought you were.
         | 
         | Every manager I've had that used your example quote--almost
         | verbatim--went on to be incredibly passive-aggressive, because
         | they're trying too hard not to actually create conflict, they
         | want to be liked more than they care about the result, they
         | don't have that much innate confidence, or like the author of
         | the article suggested, they want to see the results they would
         | have produced when they were an IC, and haven't yet learned how
         | to guide autonomy and relinquish a certain amount of control.
         | These are perhaps the traits that led them to keeping their IC
         | job all those years.
         | 
         | These people would turn 1-on-1s into 45 mins of beating around
         | the bush, trying to get me to reveal myself as having
         | insufficiently met the unspoken criteria they've been having
         | internal anxiety attacks about, and _maybe_ in the last few
         | minutes when there 's no room left for pushback they'd conjure
         | the answer they wanted to hear and set that as the benchmark.
         | 
         | This failure on their part predictibly bled into other
         | interactions and created toxicity and resentment, they couldn't
         | yield control, and they couldn't have a real discussion that
         | involved more than themselves manifesting as their overbearing
         | mother waiting for their kid to implicate themselves for some
         | petty wrongdoing. They couldn't clearly communicate priorities,
         | or timelines, or requirements, and were starting in their new
         | job with a skill issue of their own. They hadn't adapted to the
         | role or developed a good personality for it, and apparently
         | lacked an ability to reflect on their behavior or communication
         | style.
         | 
         | I don't mean to extrapolate too far from this or in-turn attack
         | you in any way, it's just a small quote, but in the past it's
         | been telling.
         | 
         | "Can we talk about code quality issues" doesn't just avoid a
         | character trait, which I agree should should never be the
         | target, it leans into vague, soft, meek, intentionally indirect
         | language that just creates undue anxiety and establishes an
         | ambiguous context for whatever the problem might be, and was a
         | dishonest pretext for for downstream attribution of fault,
         | since they couldn't accept the possibility that the problem
         | might be upstream (which it wasn't always, but if it had been,
         | they weren't going to address it then). In these situations,
         | sometimes I was struggling with purely my own productivity,
         | having a bad couple weeks, but otherwise it was some other
         | issue they weren't willing or able to genuinely help me with.
         | 
         | Do your best to be humble, learn to delegate and _try_ to trust
         | people, avoid thinking about character traits but don 't avoid
         | direct (and clear) language, and accept that your perception
         | might be inaccurate. Get as far away as necessary from the
         | dreaded "just checking in" or "is there anything _we_ can do to
         | improve ( _your problem_ )" as possible. What if their code is
         | suffering because of noise in the office or someone's depressed
         | because they're having relationship issues? What if it's
         | because you keep coming over to their desk unannounced and
         | asking diverting their attention?
         | 
         | If you can do that, you're on a good track.
         | 
         | Edit: it's worth noting that the underlying assumption in all
         | of my comment is that people and their reasons and issues are
         | often different, and likewise how they respond to this language
         | may be different, and as such many might actually love the
         | quoted phrases because they aren't imposing, and a good manager
         | will do their best to communicate with people in a way that
         | accepts that a variety of ways to address conflict is the right
         | move, and sometimes less imposing language is viable.
        
           | localghost3000 wrote:
           | You're basically validating my original point if I am reading
           | your comment correctly. You absolutely cannot avoid conflict
           | but there is a right and a wrong way to go about it. Simple,
           | direct feedback that speaks to behaviors not character is
           | very important.
           | 
           | To your point about being in the trenches I think maybe
           | you're extrapolating too much from that. Any manager who is
           | any good is of course right there alongside their team in
           | said trenches.
        
         | crowcroft wrote:
         | I have found that company culture has the biggest impact on
         | junior managers. It sets the expectation for them the most
         | because they don't have any actual ability yet.
         | 
         | Overly empathetic companies end up with terrible junior
         | managers because they can't have any real direct conversations.
         | Tough and demanding companies I have seen fair much better
         | because no one can hide from tough conversations for too long.
        
           | hackable_sand wrote:
           | That's not what empathy means.
        
             | crowcroft wrote:
             | I'm meaning in the sense of 'ruinous empathy'
             | 
             | https://www.radicalcandor.com/faq/what-is-ruinous-empathy/
        
               | hackable_sand wrote:
               | Thank you for the link. I like saying "confront with
               | compassion" for the upside of empathetic honesty.
        
         | hackable_sand wrote:
         | These are the marks of a passive-aggressive and adversarial
         | manager who would sell their team out from under them.
        
           | localghost3000 wrote:
           | This is literally the opposite of passive aggressive. That's
           | my entire point!! You have to be direct with people so the
           | know where they stand. That applies to what they're doing
           | well on also.
           | 
           | As for the "sell out" statement... I have no idea how you got
           | that out of what I said. Sounds like maybe you had some bad
           | managers?
        
             | hackable_sand wrote:
             | That camaraderie should have been built up in the trenches.
             | They must trust you enough to be honest, otherwise they are
             | not your comrades.
             | 
             | If your words and tone sound nice, they can still be mean,
             | doubly so.
        
         | pdonis wrote:
         | _> I've noticed quality issues in your code recently that's
         | resulted in some rollbacks_
         | 
         | I would tend to even leave out the first part of that phrase.
         | Focus on the actual objective measure: the rollbacks. They
         | happened, and the goal is to figure out how to not have them
         | happen in the future.
        
           | xandrius wrote:
           | Yeah, code quality is marginally important if whatever QA/UAT
           | process allowed that code to go to production.
           | 
           | If "bad code" can make it to production it's usually the
           | fault of the system as a whole, not the author.
        
             | nrclark wrote:
             | I have mixed feelings about this.
             | 
             | For the most part, I think "you can't bolt on quality after
             | the fact" is true. Code reviews and CI/CD automated-tests
             | are helpful, but can never be thorough enough to catch
             | every mistake that a low performing developer might make.
             | 
             | If that developer causes enough problems over time, that is
             | absolutely something that their manager can and should
             | address.
        
               | xandrius wrote:
               | I'd think about actioning the individual only if it was
               | exactly the same issue every time (how did the same
               | issues manage pass time and time again, didn't we learn
               | anything as a team?). Otherwise I'm more in the mentality
               | that breakages are a great way to improve internal flows
               | against (inevitable) failures.
               | 
               | I think the real problem would be when a developer cannot
               | manage to get any code into production (e.g. Code stuck
               | in PR for weeks) but once the rest of the team and our
               | systems approve it then they have proven their worth.
               | 
               | Also, if developer X's code keeps passing code reviews,
               | CI/CD, QA and UAT, and it's not the fault of the systems
               | in place, I would ask myself what kind cutting edge stuff
               | are they working on?
        
           | quietbritishjim wrote:
           | I disagree, at least in this case. In the comment you're
           | replying to, the new manager is technical and familiar with
           | the codebase, and can assess that the reason for the
           | rollbacks is a genuine quality issue. This is useful
           | information, and if you leave it out then you leave your
           | report partially in the dark, wondering if the rollbacks are
           | happening for some other reason (I can think of plenty).
           | 
           | I'm not saying it needs to literally be in the first sentence
           | or phrased exactly like that, but I don't think that's what
           | they meant anyway. Rather, you do need to be upfront about it
           | instead of alluding to the problem without giving away what
           | you actually think.
        
         | antman wrote:
         | "I have noticed you ate brutalizing your subordinates and that
         | has increased quality and output but I know it is not
         | sustainable and the team is going to crash" any ideas how to
         | communicate it are welcome
        
           | NhanH wrote:
           | What's wrong with saying what you typed above verbatim? It is
           | a fairy standard scenario and your wordings probably have
           | been said in one-on-one millions of times. You need to follow
           | up the sentence with "what's next", since the scenario does
           | not have a simple solution (the manager can tone down the
           | demand, but then output and quality goes back to where is was
           | and we have to deal with that). But now that is more about
           | the work itself rather than communication
        
         | sublinear wrote:
         | > "I've noticed quality issues in your code recently that's
         | resulted in some rollbacks. Can we talk about how we can
         | address that?"
         | 
         | This is just about the laziest and least trustworthy language
         | possible to use. Your reports aren't going to know what they
         | don't know and are just going to become paranoid and work
         | slower. The code quality will likely not improve from a
         | conversation prompted this way. This is also a continuous
         | process, not a magic high stakes meeting. If you're in charge
         | you should see patterns in the code reviews and know what their
         | knowledge gaps are causing these issues. They're looking to you
         | for help if you're the one bringing this up in the first place.
         | 
         | If that's too time consuming or over your head you should not
         | be a manager. Leverage your own knowledge and use mentorship to
         | avoid conflicts with your reports and the improved productivity
         | will please the people above you as well. You aren't giving
         | anyone what they need by merely communicating requirements.
         | Your job is to fulfill those requirements with the team you
         | have.
        
           | piterrro wrote:
           | Fully agree, quality is teams's effort and having a blameless
           | culture where the team pushes for higher quality bar is
           | essential. Chasing a single individual only makes sense when
           | they have a track record of repeating the same thing multiple
           | times - means they are not learning from their past mistakes.
        
             | jimberlage wrote:
             | Out of curiosity, the OP's language is "quality issues",
             | not "quality issue." Why did you assume there wasn't
             | already a pattern of behavior implied there?
        
               | whoknowsidont wrote:
               | I'm not OP, but just by the way it was worded. It feels
               | vague and grandstand-y. " _I_ have noticed " is such a
               | silly way to word what's happening here and it's hard not
               | to imbue underlying meanings to it.
               | 
               | And then "can we talk about how we can address that."
               | More vague, leading statements.
               | 
               | Speak to the facts. "The team / org had to roll back this
               | release, the team does not think there is a process
               | improvement that would have alleviated this problem, and
               | the team relied on you to properly make this feature. Our
               | exceptions of all team members is [...]"
               | 
               | Make it clear:
               | 
               | 1. This is affecting the whole team (equally)
               | 
               | 2. The team as a whole shares this perspective (it's not
               | just the manager nitpicking)
               | 
               | 3. There are consistent and vibrant standards that the
               | entire team must adhere to
               | 
               | 4. You are not meeting those standard(s) or necessary
               | actions for success.
               | 
               | 5. Offer what you think will fix the problem (if
               | anything)
               | 
               | 6. Make it clear this is their chance to agree/disagree
               | 
               | 7. Continue to talk it out.
               | 
               | Honestly OP seems like a person who has struggled in his
               | position as manager to properly speak to people, and
               | instead of understanding why there was a struggle simply
               | switched to more coded language.
               | 
               | Most people will see through it and react negatively.
        
             | dakiol wrote:
             | Constantly pushing for higher quality is not healthy imo.
             | You end up burned. I don't want to be a high performer (I
             | end up burned) and I don't want to be a low performer
             | either (end up fired). Something in between is something
             | ICs shouldn't be afraid of aiming to (unfortunately
             | management doesn't think like that and want to extract
             | until the last drop of productivity from us)
        
               | alsetmusic wrote:
               | Exactly. A steady pace is how one achieves longterm
               | success. This is something that I learned after burning
               | out. Do the job well, but don't kill yourself.
        
           | diatone wrote:
           | I'm sure you mean well but reading GP's post I'm convinced
           | that the laziest and least trustworthy language to use is
           | actually, "you're sloppy."
           | 
           | Good idea to think in systems and figure out how to lift the
           | quality of the team but it's okay to give direct feedback.
           | Especially if the feedback is like GP's in that it kicks off
           | a constructive conversation, which iiuc is exactly what your
           | final sentence there is waxing on about...
           | 
           | Edit; to be clear I'm suggesting to not aim to avoid
           | conflict. Certainly don't stoke it for no reason but there is
           | a healthy kind of conflict and how it is engaged with, which
           | builds trust, deepens human relationships, and leads to
           | growth for everyone involved. Psychological safety etc
        
             | sublinear wrote:
             | Ok fair. Some devs do not respond well to advice and
             | consider it just as condescending. Most I've worked with
             | aren't like this though. Yes, we should use our own
             | judgement.
             | 
             | My response is based on my own experiences with management
             | that are incapable of moving the needle on anything, rarely
             | have any constructive input, and ultimately cause their
             | team to either quit or be fired. Then they themselves get
             | pressured to quit.
             | 
             | It's very obvious to devs when someone delegating couldn't
             | even do the work themselves or would do an even sloppier
             | job. It's one thing to expect higher performance, but quite
             | another to demand it while spending all day in meetings
             | giving limp wristed handshakes and bullshitting their way
             | through every question they get from anyone.
             | 
             | I understand that it's already hard enough to hire good
             | devs let alone promote one into management. I'm suggesting
             | how an organization goes about making and promoting those
             | people from within. This industry cannot go on like this. I
             | don't care if someone isn't perfect when I hire them, but I
             | do care that everyone wins.
        
           | the_clarence wrote:
           | This sounds so stupid. I'm sorry but feedback is already
           | given in PRs. This kind of feedback is just a bad idea IMO.
           | Focus on growth and areas of improvements. Your reports often
           | already know what they should focus on, and they are on their
           | own journey of time management. The only lever you have as a
           | manager is to add or remove pressure. The only help you can
           | give is through mentoring or therapy/coaching.
        
           | jimberlage wrote:
           | > "I've noticed quality issues in your code recently that's
           | resulted in some rollbacks. Can we talk about how we can
           | address that?"
           | 
           | That's the first step in fixing the quality issues, not an
           | end state. Reports don't know what they don't know, so step 1
           | is to get their ideas on how to fix quality issues.
        
         | beryilma wrote:
         | > I've noticed quality issues in your code recently...
         | 
         | Why is it always the report who is the source of the problem
         | and not the manager?
         | 
         | How about "I've created a toxic work environment and put my
         | reports under a lot of stress. And I have not given them any
         | opportunities to grow and learn new skills. I am planning to do
         | better..." Words that will never come from the mouth of a
         | manager.
         | 
         | Have a hard conversation with yourself first before blaming the
         | reports.
        
           | LanceH wrote:
           | Articles aren't written for reports, or at least the
           | advertising on those articles are directed at the managerial
           | and above level.
        
         | interludead wrote:
         | Navigating hard conversations is arguably the crucible for new
         | managers
        
       | binarymax wrote:
       | I've got a good hack for the dopamine: PowerPoint and excel. Go
       | to town on making kick ass presentations and reports. "Ship"
       | those to the org during meetings and all hands. It's not the same
       | as code for customers, but it helps. Also, if you have time, code
       | non critical things that will never be a dependency for anything
       | else.
        
         | dowager_dan99 wrote:
         | I build internal tools, do BS support requests and push little
         | initiatives that align with my core values. Like get a dozen
         | people in-person for a technical watch party - cheap, easy,
         | super rewarding.
        
         | starky wrote:
         | Agreed, my go to when feeling like I haven't produced real work
         | in awhile is to document processes, especially if there is
         | something I've noticed has been done poorly or been asked about
         | a couple times recently.
        
       | ryoshu wrote:
       | Delegation -> This is 1000% the hardest thing to do. You need to
       | let go and trust your people.
       | 
       | Where's my dopamine? -> Your success is the teams' success. When
       | they are doing well, you are doing well.
       | 
       | Quality over quantity -> Yes.
       | 
       | The level of engagement -> Your job is to support the team -
       | blockers are your problem, not their problem. Fight to remove
       | blockers. That's your job.
       | 
       | Managing perception -> Which leads into, your role, well done, is
       | invisible. Protect them from the bullshit politics that any org
       | has and let them do what they do well.
       | 
       | Redefining success -> That's up to you and your manager. If
       | you're a new manager, you need to manage across and up. That's a
       | set of skills that we don't train people for.
       | 
       | You're coming from an IC position and you know how to do the
       | work. Managing people is a different job,
        
         | dowager_dan99 wrote:
         | Where's my dopamine? -> Your success is the teams' success.
         | When they are doing well, you are doing well.
         | 
         | It's hard to get a dopamine hit of a second-order signal
         | though. When you're a developer there's a strong linkage
         | between the work you complete and results. If you write code
         | for a new feature, you get to see it take shape on your screen.
         | When your team reaches a milestone, you see where you
         | contributed and can often quantify your contributions.What
         | happens after you move into management? Your day-to-day is no
         | longer filled with relatively concrete tasks and goals. Your
         | role is not to do the work yourself but guide and support a
         | team doing the actual execution. How do you measure that?
        
           | ad_hockey wrote:
           | Agreed. "Where's my dopamine" is the right way to describe
           | it. As an IC I could find a bug, craft a test that reproduces
           | it, write a fix, see the test go green, see the PR get
           | approved and land... I'd get a little dopamine ping at each
           | step. As a manager I'd have days where I had constructive
           | 1:1s in the morning and maybe made a decision on some
           | strategic or resourcing problem in an afternoon meeting. Of
           | course I recognised that the work was not only valuable, but
           | higher impact than just fixing a bug. But the direct hit in
           | the pleasure receptors just wasn't there. I'd finish a day a
           | like that and instead of feeling happy with my work, I'd just
           | feel exhausted and not looking forward to the next day.
           | 
           | After a few years as a manager I switched back to the IC
           | track. I sometimes wonder if my experience means I'm just
           | hard-wired to be an IC, or if with more time and practice you
           | can train yourself to get the dopamine feedback from
           | management activities.
        
           | ifthenelseor wrote:
           | I'm still getting dopamine off getting a team member
           | promoted, two years later. Every success they make reminds me
           | that I helped them build that confidence and those skills.
           | Manager-side successes might not be obvious and daily, but
           | they have staying power like you wouldn't believe.
        
         | Loughla wrote:
         | >The level of engagement -> Your job is to support the team -
         | blockers are your problem, not their problem. Fight to remove
         | blockers. That's your job.
         | 
         | The best managers I've ever had saw it as their job to remove
         | barriers and bullshit from my day. It's what I try to do as a
         | leader as well. It serves the purpose of making their jobs
         | easier, and also takes up your time which creates less
         | opportunity for you to micromanage and forces you to delegate.
         | 
         | >Managing perception -> Which leads into, your role, well done,
         | is invisible. Protect them from the bullshit politics that any
         | org has and let them do what they do well.
         | 
         | This is SO important, and where I struggle the most. Your team
         | won't appreciate it, but when they have the time, support, and
         | resources they need, they'll notice.
        
       | brap wrote:
       | I joined a new team as a manager and after 3 years was kindly
       | asked to step down and become an IC. While there are many
       | external factors to blame, I decided to do an honest postmortem
       | with myself so I thought about these things a lot.
       | 
       | As a line manager a huge mistake you could make (especially if
       | you're joining a new team) is not being technical enough.
       | 
       | You may not write code anymore, but you are expected to know the
       | system very thoroughly, otherwise you'll be perceived as a
       | glorified babysitter.
       | 
       | As a new manager it's very easy to fall into the trap of not
       | doing any technical work because you're a big boy now playing in
       | the big boy league, but this will 100% hurt you.
       | 
       | You need to stay on top of everything your reports are doing.
       | Give them their space but always ask hard questions and dig deep.
       | 
       | Frame it like this: if this report were to quit today, are you
       | able to step in and complete their project? I'm not saying it's
       | something a manager is supposed to do, but that ultimately YOU
       | are directly responsible for your reports' work so you should be
       | extremely familiar with it.
        
         | exitb wrote:
         | > if this report were to quit today, are you able to step in
         | and complete their project?
         | 
         | I've had many managers over the years, more and less
         | successful, and this was possible just for one of them. And
         | only because they were promoted to the position from a
         | developer level on that team. They hated being a manager though
         | and left the company promptly.
        
           | dowager_dan99 wrote:
           | Turning this person into a manager is a major fail. Typically
           | their only move is to quit, and everyone loses.
        
         | thanksgiving wrote:
         | > You may not write code anymore, but you are expected to know
         | the system very thoroughly, otherwise you'll be perceived as a
         | glorified babysitter.
         | 
         | I think the way "experienced" managers do this is to not
         | actually understand the technical work 100% but rather make
         | your manager think you understand it 100%. Even as an
         | individual contributor, I fail to fully understand all the
         | changes my team is making. I can't imagine being 100% fully up
         | to date with all the changes at are in flight, have landed,
         | etc. and why. The best you can do is some kind of abstraction.
         | 
         | They call this "managing up" or something like that.
        
           | chatmasta wrote:
           | I'm pretty sure "managing up" refers to the extra work the IC
           | needs to do so that their non-technical manager doesn't look
           | incompetent to their own manager.
        
           | ElevenLathe wrote:
           | Managing up is just rebranded brown-nosing.
        
             | majormajor wrote:
             | I think it's the direct opposite: A huge part of "managing
             | up" is making your your boss knows what's going on enough
             | to help them make a wrong decision due to being unaware of
             | details you and your reports are aware of. If you're scared
             | of contradicting or correcting them you can't do that.
             | 
             | A huge common mistake for anyone with a boss - at ANY
             | level, IC or management, is assuming their boss knows
             | everything that they know + more things. The intersection
             | of what you know + they know is probably smaller than you
             | think. And so being able to recognize what they will NEED
             | to know in the near future is a valuable skill.
        
           | majormajor wrote:
           | For those sorts of things you need to understand:
           | 
           | - the reason it's happening
           | 
           | - the cost (time / people)
           | 
           | - what else you are deciding not to do instead
           | 
           | You don't have to be in the weeds enough to implement it
           | yourself but you need to guard against both:
           | 
           | - people working on things that aren't priorities because
           | they only want to work on their own pet projects, by not
           | being technical enough to tell when they're BSing about the
           | technical justification for certain things
           | 
           | - people doing things in inefficient or not-aligned-with-
           | future-needs ways because they are more junior and don't know
           | some technical things, or because you haven't shared enough
           | roadmap context
           | 
           | It's related to "managing up" in that it's good to be
           | proactive about sharing some of that info upward as-relevant
           | with your boss so that they don't have to go out of their way
           | to know what's going on with you (or else you run the risk of
           | them having a wrong assumption when they're making decisions
           | that impact you and your reports).
        
         | dowager_dan99 wrote:
         | I've entered 2 new orgs as an engineering manager, after
         | getting some experience organically. You need to prioritize
         | between lots of things, including technical / people. Usually
         | people is the right choice I've concluded, but the first time
         | my teams were using all new tech for me and I really struggled
         | after over focusing on relationships. The second time I still
         | focused more on people but new the tech better, and forced
         | myself to find time to go through more typical developer
         | onboarding. It was way more successful.
         | 
         | Some of the things you mention sound right for a team lead
         | (i.e. single team) but not really for an EM where you might
         | have 2+ teams. You need to be able to solve the problems the
         | leaving teammates create for you, but stepping into the role is
         | probably the last thing you should do. Don't get me wrong, you
         | need to live the life to build credibility and empathy, but
         | doing the job yourself is usually a substandard, unsustainable
         | solution.
        
         | codingdave wrote:
         | Having full knowledge of the work is not the same thing as full
         | knowledge of the system. Being able to step in to do the work
         | of one of your people is one possible way to provide a safety
         | net for the bus factor, yes. But not the only way, and I'd
         | argue it is not the best way.
         | 
         | This is your team - you are managing them, not the other way
         | around, so if they have expectations of you that are incorrect,
         | then fix those expectations. If you are not technical, tell
         | them so. Communicate your needs and expectations, and then let
         | them do the work. If there is a bus factor that is too high of
         | a risk for a sustainable team, cross-train the team to remove
         | the bus factor. Have a sense of the priority of all the work so
         | that if someone quits, you can re-arrange the schedule, not be
         | forced to jump in and put out a fire.
         | 
         | At the same time, be building up your people so that they can
         | jump in and replace you. After all, if you cannot be replaced,
         | you cannot be promoted either. Don't pigeon-hole yourself into
         | a front-line manager role unless you truly love it. Grow your
         | team, but grow yourself at the same time.
        
         | jiveturkey wrote:
         | Not at all. I mean for a small team where you are or expected
         | to perform as TLM yes. But generally speaking no.
         | 
         | I can't read the article to tell if this is just an observation
         | from you, or if you are responding to the article, because my
         | DNS just broke for whatever reason.
         | 
         | > Frame it like this: if this report were to quit today, are
         | you able to step in and complete their project?
         | 
         | That is not the manager's job. The real question here is, do
         | you know the bus factor of your team and do you know what
         | particular skills are most critical to replace?
        
         | resonious wrote:
         | I'm an IC on a team full of seniors with strong domain
         | knowledge that recently hired in an EM from the outside. In
         | short, it was pretty bumpy and despite the guy being an ex
         | engineer, his constant questions about how the system works
         | were a huge drag. Maybe to him he was digging deep but to me it
         | felt like my (and my teammates') work was blocked by his
         | inability to grasp simple concepts. Like the time spent
         | explaining could've been spent just fixing the bug.
         | 
         | So I guess with the digging deep thing, be careful to not take
         | up too much of people's time!
        
           | diatone wrote:
           | How long are these Q&A sessions, would you say the work of
           | ICs getting blocked isn't worth having the manager be able to
           | eg: advocate for that work upwards?
        
           | dakiol wrote:
           | What's wrong with taking "too much" peoples time? I mean,
           | it's a colleague, asking questions... it's not that you are
           | going to work more because you're allocating time to help
           | others.
        
         | dyauspitr wrote:
         | That's the team leads job. The manager's job is to manage the
         | people. You are a babysitter or more akin to a teacher that has
         | to stay out of the way of the kids doing things well and
         | prevent the bad kids from ruining the class for everyone.
        
         | dakiol wrote:
         | IMO, if I have to choose between managers that are technical
         | "enough" and glorified babysitters, I go for the latter. Little
         | knowledge is dangerous and causes more pain than help. At least
         | glorified babysitters know that they don't know enough and
         | leave all the important tech decisions to the devs; that's
         | relieving.
        
         | alain94040 wrote:
         | > if this report were to quit today, are you able to step in
         | and complete their project?
         | 
         | I don't think that's the main goal for a manager (even
         | technical). I'd say generally, the manager should understand
         | _why_ the team is building something, and the engineers should
         | know _how_. The _why_ includes who is going to use what was
         | built, when do they need it, what trade-offs can be made, etc.
        
       | hnlurker22 wrote:
       | New era manager mistake. Ask ChatGPT about time estimates and
       | pretend you know that because you are an expert, then use that to
       | micromanage people. Mistake is a nice word. I consider that to be
       | pure evil
        
       | dowager_dan99 wrote:
       | Most of these are pretty accurate, but there's good news: giving
       | a sh!t about your people will likely get you 80% of the way to
       | being a good manager. If you genuinely care about them, their
       | work and progression you're already aligned with the key aspects.
       | You can learn & figure out the rest. It might be hard and very
       | unpleasant at times, and stressful, but building the teams that
       | build software is the most rewarding accomplishment of my life.
       | 
       | I will add one too: sometimes you only find out you don't want to
       | be a manager after trying it. Building a lead mentorship program
       | where both management and the individual can live a realistic
       | experience of being a people leader is invaluable. I've
       | implemented this program twice now and it has been great for
       | building leadership capacity with people who are excited to take
       | this path.
        
         | alsetmusic wrote:
         | > giving a sh!t about your people
         | 
         | One of the most stand-out moments of leadership I've ever
         | witnessed was my boss protecting me and a colleague from
         | another manager on a different team. He put his foot down and
         | drew a line about what was to be expected of us (among our
         | other competing responsibilities). Fight for me and I'll fight
         | for you.
        
       | wavemode wrote:
       | > As an individual contributor (IC), your work spoke for itself;
       | people could easily see it. Plain and simple. As a manager, it's
       | less black and white, and surprisingly, for many new managers,
       | part of your job now involves managing how others see you.
       | 
       | This doesn't only apply to managers. Even as an individual
       | software engineer, the more you move up (if moving up is
       | something that matters to you), the more you have to play
       | politics.
       | 
       | Your work can't possibly "speak for itself", since the people
       | it's speaking to (the managers with power over your career) don't
       | speak code.
        
       | toolslive wrote:
       | It's important to know exactly what you are managing: a team? a
       | project? a service? a product? "Engineering manager" is an
       | ambiguous term here.
        
       | urbandw311er wrote:
       | I've been an IC, a manager, a CEO and now even an IC again. This
       | advice is all really sound and easily digestible. Many thanks to
       | the author for sharing it.
        
       | purpleidea wrote:
       | The worst is having a manager who thinks he's great, but is
       | actually disloyal and shit. Not sure how best to deal with that
       | situation other than to ignore and eventually move on... If
       | they'd be willing to admit their failing and improve, that would
       | be awesome. Asking for a friend.
        
       | Daub wrote:
       | As a (former) manager of a department in a design school, I
       | defined three managerial imperatives:
       | 
       | 1. Get rid of old, dead wood. Given that our program is
       | scaffolded, with each course building upon the preceding, A
       | single low performing lecturer can bring down the quality of an
       | entire program. Don't trust student feedback when identifying
       | such people. They favour nice lecturers over effective ones.
       | Getting rid of low performing team members in a university can be
       | a low process. It can sometimes be quicker to find programs they
       | would be happier/more productive in, and engineer a transfer.
       | 
       | 2. Hire effective new blood. Well duh, I hear you say. Finding
       | good new hires can be a difficult task. For those who I really
       | wanted to hire, I did my research on who they were and what they
       | might want, and tried to show them that I was willing to build a
       | nest for them.
       | 
       | 3. Have a vision of what the department should be. This vision
       | requires constant maintenance and should always consider input
       | from the team.
        
         | bearjaws wrote:
         | #2 is considered taboo, but IMO if a team is full of people who
         | are checked out, it may be time to make huge changes.
         | 
         | People become jaded and start to tell you all the ways we _can
         | 't_ do something, or it will take too long. They often don't
         | realize what tools are at their disposal to help make change
         | easier, and instead insist there is only one good path to a
         | solution...
         | 
         | Fresh talent really helps get people excited again, after the
         | initial shock of layoffs. Not to mention new talent always
         | comes in excited for an opportunity.
        
       | the_clarence wrote:
       | Reading the comments here just makes me feel like managers are
       | useless. This role doesn't have to exist. It's just fluff.
        
         | jimberlage wrote:
         | I worked at a company that emulated Valve's hyper-flat
         | structure on their engineering team, with 1 manager having 50
         | direct reports. That's as close to a management-less structure
         | as I can think of, since your manager can't attend meetings or
         | do 1:1s anymore.
         | 
         | It's great at the beginning. We started with a team of mostly
         | self-motivated people and the lack of upward review made
         | technical decision-making easy.
         | 
         | Eventually, you hire someone who is not self motivated. Also,
         | some existing people get wise to the fact that no one will
         | check up on them, and read Reddit for half the day.
         | 
         | About 4 months in, every team had 1 person like that. They had
         | to work around them - one team can't ever get designs cause the
         | designer is checked out, one team's backend work takes 1.5x as
         | long as everyone else.
         | 
         | People say things to the underperformers, but there's no teeth
         | to anything, no one is anyone's manager, so it's just
         | suggestions. They get ignored. Resentment builds into each
         | individual team's culture. Deadlines start slipping.
         | 
         | 1 year in, non technical leadership is fed up. They don't see
         | benefits from the flat structure, and hire a new CTO and new
         | middle management layer.
         | 
         | The new managers come in briefed with "the team is lazy." The
         | underperformers get pushed out, and have trouble finding work
         | because their skills have absolutely atrophied. Any remaining
         | high performers are permanently tarred with the reputation of
         | the org from the flat structure days, and get micromanaged. To
         | the new managers, they are kids who will misbehave the second
         | they aren't watched (which, in fairness, is kinda what happened
         | at the organizational level when they weren't watched.)
         | 
         | Sone good middle management providing timely oversight and
         | feedback could've avoided the whole situation.
        
       | iLoveOncall wrote:
       | On "Where's my dopamine?", while I'm not a manager but just a
       | tech lead, so still working as an IC for most of the time, I do
       | get satisfaction from eliminating repetitive work for people in
       | my team and optimizing process.
       | 
       | It's great to be able to tell your teammates that the meeting is
       | canceled because you just sent an email explaining that you
       | prepared everything for next sprint and here's a 5 lines summary.
        
       | mikhmha wrote:
       | What are you supposed to do when your manager has terrible and/or
       | selective memory? My last manager would assign me work and then
       | promptly forget half the time what he assigned me. It was
       | bizarre. Sometimes it worked in my favour because I would do
       | something he assigned me - then show him - and then he would sing
       | praises for my "self initiative" and creativity. Like dude, you
       | told me to do this. Of course this sort of amnesia will
       | eventually come back to bite you when you are yelled at because
       | "why are you working on Y?? you should be working on Z!!". Dude
       | you told me to work on "Y" two days ago.
       | 
       | I never understood whose blame the poor memory falls on? In my
       | opinion it was on him to stay organized - something he never made
       | an effort to do. Others would say it was on me to communicate to
       | him what he told me. I don't get paid enough to be his executive
       | assistant. And I don't see the point in communicating better if
       | he would just forget again.
       | 
       | Other times his memory was bizzare. Like he would remember some
       | off comment I'd made to him in a 1-on-1 and then use it as a way
       | to butter me up or appeal to me. I once mentioned to him I follow
       | news in the "programming space" (aka reading this website). And
       | he seemed to remember this whenever he needed to appeal to me to
       | look into some new platform feature clients were requesting. "You
       | read a lot about this stuff right??? Take a look into PDF
       | generation using this library. You read a lot about this stuff
       | right??" I think he thought he was juicing up my ego with this.
       | So bizzare.
       | 
       | Of course its the same manager who did the fundamental sin of
       | complaining downwards to me, and about my peers whenever one of
       | them messed up. Dude you're the CTO. If you can't maintain face
       | then I will lose all confidence in your ability.
       | 
       | OK I'm going to stop venting about my last boss now. Sorry!
        
         | epalm wrote:
         | About the poor memory stuff, just get it in writing. "In
         | writing" could mean in an email, or a chat, or more likely in
         | an issue tracker that has an audit log. When there's a
         | discrepancy, just link to where it was written down.
        
       | ChiMan wrote:
       | The way to see this is that we're all individual contributors,
       | from the janitor to the CEO. Because if you're not an individual,
       | then what are you? And if you're not contributing, then what are
       | you doing there? When you manage a project or team, you're just
       | individually contributing in a different (though usually
       | overlapping) way.
       | 
       | Also, it's helpful to remember, when delegating, that one reason
       | you're probably managing is that you either have tired of running
       | your brain in fifth gear or, at your age, can't. So the way you
       | contribute is, in general, by applying the hard-won lessons
       | gleaned from your time on the brain-speed freeway while letting
       | others, whose brains naturally run faster, either because of
       | youth or disposition, do the fast-brain work.
       | 
       | Personally, I don't generally enjoy managing in part because
       | brain speed, which I value, seems to slow further because of the
       | nature of manager or executive work. When I've gotten a taste of
       | management and spent time on calls with other managers and
       | executives, I was shocked to discover how slowly (and often
       | haphazardly) they thought through problems that were quite
       | understandable in an instant or two spent alone. They were all
       | very smart people, and yet the managing--or, more likely, the
       | group settings of meetings and calls--seemed to trap their mind,
       | eventually habitually, in a socially constructed box from which
       | they couldn't escape.
        
         | YZF wrote:
         | I hate the term IC. Its often used in a semi-derogatory
         | context.
         | 
         | Ah, I was wondering what was going on with my brain since I
         | became a manager.
         | 
         | Seriously though, I've known some people who are managers and
         | extremely fast/strong thinkers. Yes, the nature of the job
         | requires more of the big picture and less of the details.
        
         | darkerside wrote:
         | They are taking so many more factors into account that you
         | don't see. It's like a junior engineer saying, why not just
         | bang out the code? You're missing all the long term impact.
        
         | mjr00 wrote:
         | > The way to see this is that we're all individual
         | contributors, from the janitor to the CEO. Because if you're
         | not an individual, then what are you? And if you're not
         | contributing, then what are you doing there? When you manage a
         | project or team, you're just individually contributing in a
         | different (though usually overlapping) way.
         | 
         | The difference is in how your performance is judged. ICs are
         | judged by their _individual contributions_ , hence the name.
         | Managers are judged by the performance of their
         | team/department/organization/company. It's not enough to say,
         | as a manager, "I personally ran the sprint meetings and did
         | 1:1s and performance reviews so therefore I'm doing a good
         | job."
         | 
         | The individual work managers do is much harder to tangibly
         | measure. Things like establishing a culture, balancing your
         | roadmap between one-off customer requests and internal
         | production vision (and hacking in some AI crap to make your CEO
         | happy), hiring the right people. Just doing the table stakes
         | individual work of managing your direct reports' vacation time,
         | promotions, and running team meetings is really only good
         | enough for beginner, first-level line managers at bigger
         | companies, where they just need people to execute established
         | processes.
         | 
         | > Also, it's helpful to remember, when delegating, that one
         | reason you're probably managing is that you either have tired
         | of running your brain in fifth gear or, at your age, can't.
         | 
         | ehhhhh. Management is a lot more reactive, that's true, but
         | saying it requires less brainpower isn't true. As a manager
         | you're constantly context switching. You don't just care about
         | the codebase and solving one specific problem, you also care
         | about sales and marketing, your customer support team, the
         | budget for next year. You're getting slack messages from
         | executives who need an update _right now_ on your project, at
         | the same time as an engineer needing to talk because their
         | partner just filed for divorce and they need mental health days
         | (and you need to support them while also figuring out how to
         | rebalance their workload). It 's a very different way of
         | working that uses very different parts of your brain. But it's
         | not just sitting in the executive bathroom and delegating work
         | while you smoke a cigar.
        
         | interludead wrote:
         | Management might feel frustrating to those who thrive on fast,
         | solitary problem-solving
        
       | mindvirus wrote:
       | It is cynical, but quality over quantity is bad advice if you
       | want to grow your career as a manager. It's a real failure mode.
       | Not being aggressive about growing your headcount will hold you
       | back. Pretty much all managers are evaluated on amount of
       | headcount when it comes to promotions, especially if you're not
       | tied to P&L.
        
       | Gunseng wrote:
       | I find it hard to take anything seriously where "imposter
       | syndrom" is mentioned. That said, I think having full time
       | managers at all is a mistake. This was discussed in detail in
       | this podcast: https://37signals.com/podcast/everybody-works/
        
       | blindriver wrote:
       | Another mistake: Thinking your former coworkers are still your
       | friends.
        
         | smokel wrote:
         | I don't agree. Trust allows for a lot of things to go a lot
         | smoother. Sure, good friendships can end, but one can also be
         | honest with good friends.
        
       | interludead wrote:
       | "Is my team shipping? Are they happy?" is a simple yet powerful
       | metric for success. If more managers internalized this, I suspect
       | we'd see healthier teams and better products.
        
       | drewr wrote:
       | > For over a decade, my dopamine (from work) came from a very
       | predictable place: shipping new things. As a manager, those
       | direct rewards will simply disappear, leaving you feeling
       | unfulfilled for weeks (months in my case).
       | 
       | Your job as a manager is still to ship things -- only now it's to
       | ship more than you ever could alone. You get the privilege and
       | responsibility to steward the skills of two or more engineers and
       | shape the entire part of a business. The dopamine is harder won
       | and often more rewarding. Management is difficult and exhausting
       | but it's anything but unfulfilling. Let's not start new managers
       | off telling them what they can't do but what they can do.
       | 
       | Ironically, as a manager of software engineers you should still
       | be very engaged with the team's code. How else will you
       | understand your capacity and understand what gaps you need to
       | fill? Run the test suite, review designs, read PRs, ask
       | questions, give praise for attention to detail. You will keep the
       | bar high on the team and advocate for their work more effectively
       | within the organization.
        
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