[HN Gopher] There Are No More Dogs in Antarctica
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There Are No More Dogs in Antarctica
Author : thunderbong
Score : 115 points
Date : 2024-12-06 04:11 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.chrisdobo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.chrisdobo.com)
| cozzyd wrote:
| other than sundogs, of course.
| antonvs wrote:
| and that ubiquitous breed, the updog
| senectus1 wrote:
| whats "updog"?
| sturadnidge wrote:
| A colloquial term for dogs that were transported via an
| upboat?
| whatsupdog wrote:
| Nothing much. And you?
| c420 wrote:
| Username checks out
| alt227 wrote:
| Great use of a temp throwaway account. Have an upvote.
| aorloff wrote:
| Beware these casuals
| tempodox wrote:
| The antipode of the underdog?
| rezmason wrote:
| So it was practical at one point to dogsled around Antarctica,
| and it was practical to leave there any dogs who perished.
|
| Did this apply to both polar regions? Is the Arctic one enormous,
| 35,000-year-old frozen pet cemetery?
|
| Edit: come to think of it, this applies to humans too, at both
| poles.
| yawpitch wrote:
| So, realistically, every continent is an old pet cemetery,
| Antarctica is just the newest, bleakest, coldest, and driest.
|
| It's also been the least accessible, making it historically
| impossible to resupply, in turn making it non-colonizable until
| diesel generators and the airplanes and (sometimes nuclear)
| icebreakers required to feed them.
|
| The Arctic on the other hand isn't a continent, but pretty much
| every winter becomes physically connected to multiple inhabited
| countries that already have populations, and these days road
| and rail, within their Arctic and sub-Arctic regions.
|
| So while the Arctic is definitely a frozen pet cemetery, it's
| been a LONG time since it was devoid of dogs (or at least
| wolves, who colonised it without our help).
| rezmason wrote:
| Good points!
|
| I think I'm just coming to terms (in a public forum) with the
| bleak fates of animals that humans transport, ie. to the ends
| of the Earth.
| btilly wrote:
| For a frozen open air cemetery, I direct your attention to
| Mount Everest.
|
| Your odds of dying while climbing it are better than while
| attempting suicide. And most of the bodies just...stay.
| arrowsmith wrote:
| Here's an article about this with photos:
| https://www.ultimatekilimanjaro.com/mount-everest-bodies-
| lef...
|
| (Note: that link contains photos of frozen human corpses, so
| maybe don't click it if you're squeamish.)
|
| My understanding is that many of these bodies are clearly
| visible from the trail as you climb the mountain. Imagine
| seeing the well-preserved corpse of someone who previously
| attempted the dangerous feat you're now attempting... I don't
| want to find out what that feels like.
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| I met a traveler from a distant land...wait, I am a
| traveler from a distant land.
| ANewFormation wrote:
| At least one body known as "Green Boots" [1] is used as a
| common milestone. His identity is unknown for certain.
|
| The reason one does such things, though, is because they're
| difficult, so I'd imagine the bodies are motivating - focus
| or you'll be the next milestone.
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots
| ricardobeat wrote:
| The irony of a website telling the story of
| commercialization of climbing the Everest, and the risks
| involved, while bombarding you with full page ads to buy a
| climbing package every couple minutes...
|
| I also wonder, with so much money going into these
| expeditions for many decades, how hard would it be to build
| some kind of safe house not too far from the summit, with
| oxygen / heating supplies delivered by drone?
| rtkwe wrote:
| Very very hard. Purpose built high performance
| helicopters can barely make it to the Everest summit on
| ideal days. The air gets so thin they struggle with lift
| while hovering which to need to land.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I'm guessing personal jet packs aren't a replacement yet?
| gambiting wrote:
| On the other hand DJI has flown their regular consumer
| Mavic 3 Pro(although I bet it has been modified in some
| way) all the way to the top, so I have no doubt that with
| enough of them you could construct almost anything. Not
| that it would be allowed or even desirable by anyone
| there.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pIyIMqwu0E
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Wow. That must have been a very windless day!
| gregors wrote:
| "hard" is not a technical issue. They would never allow
| it to be built in the first place since it has no place
| being there.
| scythe wrote:
| I'd be concerned that if you make it too safe, people
| will find another hill to die on.
|
| The density of the air on Mount Everest is about 3/8 of
| that at sea level. So getting enough lift would be
| difficult. To the sibling commenter's point, I think a
| drone would be a lot easier than a piloted helicopter,
| since you _can_ make the whole thing out of beryllium if
| you have to.
| vunderba wrote:
| I read somewhere that the fact that it's become kind of a
| "tourist attraction" with far more first time climbers has
| actually made it more dangerous:
|
| https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-
| adventure/climbing/eve...
|
| Really takes the mystery and wonder out of it, but maybe the
| Nepal government will sell a FastPass.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Given the sheer amount of people going there, I would've
| thought they had set up multiple routes with different
| difficulty levels and amenities like carved out paths /
| stairs, bridges, and tourist shops.
|
| But I was questioning my own assumption there and as it
| turns out there's "only" a few hundred people a year that
| try to make it to the summit, with a total of about 12.000
| people that did since the 50's. That said, the surrounding
| national park gets 100.000 visitors per year, and 500
| people a day go up to Everest Base Camp, which is already
| over five kilometers high up (although people can start
| from a town with an airport at 2804 meters high).
| rtxgucci wrote:
| Yeah, I remember reading about this and the reality is,
| Everest is still a very extreme environment even by
| today's standards. It's very expensive and risky to fly
| helicopters in the thin atmosphere and weather conditions
| so it's very hard to get material up and down.
| nytesky wrote:
| What about a helicoptered with rocket assist?
| michaelscott wrote:
| It's hard to imagine just how much the height of Everest
| affects the feasibility of any "normal" infrastructure as
| a tourist spot. The air density is exceptionally thin (so
| thin that even helicopters cannot climb past a certain
| point), and the lack of oxygen is literally killing you
| at a cellular level the longer you're there. I can't even
| fathom getting building equipment up there to set
| anything up, and no one could man any of the
| infrastructure on a long term basis.
| ostacke wrote:
| Helicopters can actually fly all the way to the top. (Or
| rather, one did, once.)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle?wprov=sfti1
| #Mo...
| tim333 wrote:
| Not as far as I know used for supplies. Yaks/Sherpas are
| cheaper. They do get used for rescues though.
| tim333 wrote:
| The 'normal infrastructure' stops at about 5200m. On the
| Nepal side there's a guest house there where you can stay
| without climbing permits and the stuff get there via
| human porters or yaks. On the Chinese side there's a road
| and you can drive a car to base camp and there are some
| local shop/bar type stuff.
|
| Above that in Nepal it's just tents carried by human
| porters. In China/Tibet there's an advanced base camp
| which is like a village supplied by yak but without
| shops/public facilities, just expedition tents.
|
| The trek to the 5200m stuff on the Nepal side is a nice
| trip and cheap once you get to Kathmandu.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| The native Tibetan populations have adapted biologically
| to the low oxygen, which is why the Sherpas are so much
| better than the rest of us up there.
|
| Andean and Ethiopan populations also have separate such
| mutations of their own.
|
| Academic article:
| https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/46/1/18/661204
| tim333 wrote:
| I'm don't think it's more dangerous. The number of people
| make it a bit more like a footpath with a guide rail rather
| than the open mountain of old.
| karamanolev wrote:
| Are the odds really better though? A quick search reveals an
| Everest death rate of between 1% - 1.6% depending on the
| period. Suicide success rate seems at least an order of
| magnitude higher (maybe more).
| btilly wrote:
| No, suicide success is around 1%. That success rate varies
| widely with method. But if, for example, you just down a
| bunch of pills and then tell someone, you're extremely
| likely to live.
| tim333 wrote:
| Nitpick from a former partial Everest climber. The ratio of
| deaths to summit successes used to be about 5% but the
| majority of climbers, including me, turn around before
| getting there.
|
| I think the death ratio is down now there are pretty much
| fixed ropes the whole way to the summit on the south side.
| The 'Into Thin Air' deaths were because they lost their way
| in a storm but now you just clip onto the guide rope and walk
| up/down.
|
| The attempt to death ratio is probably more like 0.5% or 0.2%
| though there aren't really proper figures on number of
| attempts.
| bunderbunder wrote:
| According to Wikipedia the rate of deaths to summit
| attempts is more like 1%. They cite the Himalayan Database
| as their source for that figure; I'm not sure how accurate
| that is.
|
| I'm assuming by "summit attempt" they mean something like
| ascending above the high camp, so that wouldn't include
| people who abandon the climb lower down the mountain?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_on_eight-
| thousa...
| tim333 wrote:
| I think the 1% is successful summits to deaths. The
| number comes down over time.
|
| From 1924 (Mallory's death) and 1952 (Hillary's summit)
| it was infinite deaths per summit as summits were zero.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Dividing by zero is undefined not infinity.
| bunderbunder wrote:
| Ah, beans, you're right. I misread. Thanks for the
| correction!
| btilly wrote:
| Thank you for the update to my understanding.
|
| It does make sense that this figure would evolve over time.
| fifilura wrote:
| The ice layer is constantly moving and covering things up, so
| it will be close to impossible to find for example Scott's body
| and tent 100 years later.
|
| At some point some artifacts or bodies will reach the glacier
| edge and drop into the sea.
|
| And for the north, most of it is just ice shelfs anyway.
|
| Then again, not that many people died in arctic expeditions. As
| someone mentioned, mountaineering is a slaughterhouse in
| comparison. Particularly compared to the size of the Antarctic
| continent.
|
| One example of the case you mentioned though
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9e%27s_Arctic_balloon...
| ajb wrote:
| Ah, that explains why there aren't thousands of years worth
| of dead penguins down there.
| fifilura wrote:
| Hm, that is interesting. Penguins tend to live on solid
| ground though AFAIK.
| ajb wrote:
| I guess the solid ground still has some ice cover that
| moves?
| quuxplusone wrote:
| I would have thought, also, that penguins tend to live and
| die near the coastline (where the ice meets the water, I
| mean, not where the land under the ice disappears) -- and
| tend to correlate with things that like to eat dead
| penguins.
|
| But (1) the preserved Scott dog in the article is on Cape
| Evans maybe _not_ too far from the coast? and (2) now I
| wonder if I 'm wrong about penguin habits. I'd like to hear
| more.
| ajb wrote:
| According to the film "march of the penguins", Emperor
| penguins walk up to 70km onto the ice, so that their
| chicks can grow without risk of falling through the
| melting ice. But by the time they are independent, the
| ice has melted nearly to the nesting ground, so I guess
| it is still "near the coast" in a sense.
| rascul wrote:
| Maybe there is
|
| https://www.livescience.com/63525-penguin-mummies-
| antarctica...
| madaxe_again wrote:
| The old antarctic stations and huts are littered with corpses,
| from dogs to ponies to seals to penguins to bits of whale. The
| first thing you see upon entering Scott's hut on Ross Island is
| a giant stinking heap of blubber, and the stables are still
| full of corpses. The dead dogs outside are still chained and
| collared, for all eternity.
|
| The Antarctic conditions preserve bodies for a _long_ time - in
| the dry valleys, there are freeze-dried seals who have been
| there for tens of millennia - the only thing that wears them
| down is the relentless wind.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| > is a giant stinking heap of blubber,
|
| Is it actually stinking? I'd assume no, both as most smells
| are associated with decay and our ability to smell is
| somewhat hampered in the cold, but I have no idea how much
| blubber normally stinks.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| I promise you it stinks of rancid fat to high hell, despite
| the interior of the cabin having been below freezing for
| over a century, as the freezing point of the oils in
| blubber is well below zero - the strips of blubber sit in a
| puddle of foul oil. Sour, rotten smell. Thankfully the boot
| room/stables are separated from the rest of the cabin by a
| door, so the rest of the cabin just smells of camphor and
| old paper.
|
| One of the people I was with had to run outside and vomit -
| and then carefully scoop up all of their vomit into a
| plastic bag, because you only leave footprints in the
| Antarctic, and take nothing but what you brought with you -
| including your stomach contents.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I wasn't sure if your use of "stinking" was literal or
| not, I didn't think you were lying. Thanks for
| clarifying!
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| America is built on top of one enormous Indian graveyard. They
| were living here for more than ten thousand years. That's a lot
| of dying.
| dmd wrote:
| The entire world, other than Antarctica, is a human
| graveyard, and the American continents have been inhabited
| for _less_ time than most of the rest.
| nkrisc wrote:
| Everything everywhere is built on someone's grave.
|
| Also, humans have been in the Americas for far more than ten
| thousand years, which is itself a small amount of time
| compared to how long humans have been present elsewhere in
| the world.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Not much longer! 14,000 by some estimates. Just gave a
| ballpark number but sure, more than that.
| riedel wrote:
| >In view of their genetic similarity to seals there was a fear
| that dog distemper might mutate and cross over into the seal
| population.
|
| Sounds crazy. Does someone know, how realistic this was. Is there
| more evolutionary pressure in Antarctica to make that happen? Are
| those seals closer genetically? Could this happen elsewhere?
| brudgers wrote:
| I live by the Pacific shore. My dog gets vaccinated against
| leptospirosis because seals and sea lions also get it (and so
| can humans).
| rob74 wrote:
| Ok, but leptospirosis is a bacterial infection, while (I
| think) OP's point was about dog distemper, which is caused by
| a virus. But according to Wikipedia this is not a remote
| possibility (as the blog post puts it), but something that
| has actually already happened in several places, with
| disastrous consequences:
|
| > _The domestic dog has largely been responsible for
| introducing canine distemper to previously unexposed wildlife
| and now causes a serious conservation threat to many species
| of carnivores and some species of marsupials. The virus
| contributed to the near-extinction of the black-footed
| ferret. It also may have played a considerable role in the
| extinction of the thylacine (Tasmanian tiger) and recurrently
| causes mortality among African wild dogs. In 1993-1994, the
| lion population in the Serengeti, Tanzania, experienced a 20%
| decline as a result of the disease. The disease has also
| mutated into the phocine distemper virus, which affects
| seals._
|
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_distemper)
| jhbadger wrote:
| Don't know about distemper crossing over from dogs, but
| avian flu (also viral) is a serious problem among seals and
| other marine mammals -- it's possible for viruses to have
| wide cross-species infectivity.
|
| https://e360.yale.edu/features/avian-flu-mammals-birds-
| seals
| madaxe_again wrote:
| Fur seals are closer to canids than other seals, and could be
| an intermediate host.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Birds aren't that similar to humans, and viruses jump between
| us all the time.
| NooneAtAll3 wrote:
| reportedly, the last one was seen running away from Norwegian
| station, followed by helicopter (and explosions)
|
| /j
| optimalsolver wrote:
| Thankfully found its way to a US outpost and currently being
| cared for.
| genghisjahn wrote:
| Scientists at the US outpost could not be reached for
| comment.
| rasz wrote:
| Remake of PS2 game just dropped yesterday!
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/2958970/The_Thing_Remaste...
| Kye wrote:
| No bears, no dogs.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| On this topic, an absolutely wonderful family movie on the topic:
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397313/
| nytesky wrote:
| I really thought you were pulling a prank and would line to
| this: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0084787/
| croisillon wrote:
| or https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085991/ :)
| bityard wrote:
| My son is a dog fanatic and recently found this movie. I don't
| want to give away any spoilers, but it's pretty emotional and
| bittersweet, especially for a young child with a huge heart and
| love of dogs.
|
| I will say that watching the bonus footage on the DVD/BluRay is
| highly worth the time. Most of the scenes were filmed in the
| extreme Canadian cold, which was a logistical nightmare for the
| filming crew and actors. Today, the same movie would be
| basically all green screen and CGI.
|
| I still don't grok how they trained the dogs to "act" as well
| as they did. Absolutely phenomenal work from the trainers and
| dogs themselves.
| ETlol wrote:
| Movie has Paul Walker saying dog FAMILY too many times for my
| little broken heart since his death. He was like FAMILY you
| could say, god rest his soul. Vin Deisle must tell you to go to
| andrewclunn wrote:
| Wait wait wait. Did I read that right? Dog were removed... to
| prevent them from breeding with the seals?
| Amorymeltzer wrote:
| No, spreading disease:
|
| > In view of their genetic similarity to seals there was a fear
| that dog distemper might mutate and cross over into the seal
| population.
| fallinghawks wrote:
| Distemper. They thought distemper could mutate and infect
| seals.
| hackeraccount wrote:
| Next up cats.
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