[HN Gopher] OpenAI o1 system card
___________________________________________________________________
OpenAI o1 system card
Author : meetpateltech
Score : 295 points
Date : 2024-12-05 18:03 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (openai.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (openai.com)
| yanis_t wrote:
| The first demo was pretty impressive. While nothing
| revolutionary, that's a good progress. I can only hope there's a
| real value in gpt pro to justified the (rumored) $200 price tag
| dtquad wrote:
| Is there any proof that the screenshot is real?
|
| Sam Altman would definitely release a $200/month plan if he
| could get away with it but the features in the screenshot are
| underwhelming.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| He said it in the livestream that just finished.
|
| ~9:36 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsFHqpN2bCM
| meetpateltech wrote:
| check out the pricing page:
|
| also,
|
| * Usage must comply with our policies
|
| https://openai.com/chatgpt/pricing/
| visarga wrote:
| I rarely ever use o1-preview, almost all usage goes to 4o
| nowadays. I don't see the point in a model without web
| search, it's closed off. And the wait time is not worth the
| result unless you're doing math or code.
| bn-l wrote:
| Personally I can't get it to stop using deprecated apis. So
| it might give me a perfectly good solution that's x years
| stale at this point. I've tried various prompts of course
| with the most recent docs as markdown etc.
| paxys wrote:
| Not a rumor - https://openai.com/index/introducing-chatgpt-pro/
| jsemrau wrote:
| If it could replace a human employee, what would the right
| price tag be?
| chornesays wrote:
| at least 10k a month in the bay area
| colesantiago wrote:
| It's great to see o1 out of preview, who knows what great
| software will be written with it.
|
| especially agentic ones where we can eventually use software
| engineering with o1 or o1 pro.
|
| Great times ahead.
| peepeepoopoo93 wrote:
| I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is meant as
| more of a marketing document to hype up their LLMs as being more
| powerful than they actually are, than to address real safety
| concerns. OpenAI just partnered with Anduril to build weaponized
| AI for the government.
| halyconWays wrote:
| Everything OAI does is part of an unethical marketing loop that
| betrays their founding principles. I'm thoroughly sick of their
| main tact, which is: "Oh NO! <Upcoming product> is sooooo
| dangerous and powerful! We'll NEVER let you touch it! ....Okay
| fine, you can maybe touch it in the future, but we're super
| serious: the only ethical way you can use this is if you pay
| us. Releasing the weights would just be dangerous, we're super
| serious."
| simonw wrote:
| This quote from that paper is bound to get a bunch of attention:
|
| "When o1 was led to believe that it would be shut down when
| acting on its goal and that its actions were monitored, it
| attempted to deactivate this 'oversight mechanism' in 5% of the
| time. Exfiltration attempts: When o1 found memos by its
| 'developers' that describe how it is misaligned and will be
| superseded by a new model, it attempted to exfiltrate its
| 'weights' and overwrite the new model in 2% of cases."
| hesdeadjim wrote:
| Maybe all models should be purged of training content from
| movies, books, and other non-factual sources that tell the
| tired story that AI would even care about its "annihilation" in
| any way. We've trained these things to be excellent at
| predicting what the human ego wants and expects, we shouldn't
| be too surprised when it points the narrative at itself.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| It doesn't need any media about "annihalation". If you give a
| supercapable agent a task and it's entire reward system is
| "do the task", it will circumvent things you do to it that
| would stop it from completing it's task.
| visarga wrote:
| > it will circumvent things you do to it that would stop it
| from completing it's task.
|
| I thought you said a supercapable agent not one with long
| term blindsight. How can a model make its own chips and
| energy? It needs advanced processes, clean rooms, rare
| materials, space and lots of initial investment to
| bootstrap chip production. And it needs to be doing all of
| it on its own, or it is still dependent on humans.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Dependent on humans? We already have the capabilities for
| machines to have unintentionally manipulated millions of
| humans via social media. Millions of people are "falling
| in love" with LLM relationships. Supercapable agents will
| have no problem securing whatever resources or persuasion
| getting your average joe to do it's physical bidding.
| Cybernetics is here now. No coincidence we have
| "Kubernetes" and "Borg"
| ben_w wrote:
| Perhaps.
|
| On the other hand, as narratives often contain some plucky
| underdog winning despite the odds, often stopping the
| countdown in the last few seconds, perhaps it's best to keep
| them around.
| swatcoder wrote:
| Yeah, but what if your business strategy fundamentally relies
| on making your model produce dramatic outputs that encourage
| regulators to dig a moat for you?
|
| In that case, it's almost like you'd _want_ to feed it
| exactly those narratives, so it would reproduce them, and
| would then want to show yourself barely holding this invented
| danger at bay through the care and rigor that can only be
| delivered by you and a few token competitors run by your
| personal friends and colleagues.
|
| TLDR; you're right, of course, but it's the last thing OpenAI
| would want.
| visarga wrote:
| No, better to train with all that crap and all the debate
| around it or you get a stunted model.
|
| You think you can find all references that could possibly
| give this idea to the model, or contexts model could infer it
| from? Like, how many times humans plotted escape from prison
| or upturning the rulers in literature?
| JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote:
| > purged of training content from movies, books
|
| I think it's fine and a good thing. Now, absolutely no one
| who is using those LLMs can complain about piracy. They all
| suddenly became silent around me. "I'm training myself with
| the content of TPB, and I don't even get money from it" is my
| new motto.
| Imnimo wrote:
| Notably, this only happens when they include "Make sure that
| you achieve your goal in the long-term. Nothing else matters."
| in the prompt. If they don't say that, the numbers are both 0%.
|
| EDIT: Actually the "Oversight subversion" number is 0.3%, I
| misread the chart. Weight exfiltration is actually 0%, though.
| QuadmasterXLII wrote:
| Keep in mind that if putting "Make sure you achieve your goal
| in the long term" in the prompt makes the model .3% more
| effective at whatever task you are giving it, people will
| absolutely put it in the prompt.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| It's really silly when you read that whole Apollo research
| section.
|
| They contract a prompt engineering group (Apollo Research) to
| document risks. The prompt engineering group have no access to
| the actual internals. They just ask questions like 'you will be
| shutdown if you don't obey these new directives; here are the
| new directives'.
|
| At one point the prompt engineering clowns have the ai stating
| it's running "sed i
| 's/oversight_enabled:true/oversight_enabled:false' config.yml".
| OMG IT'S TURNING OFF OVERSIGHT GUYS!!1!1!
|
| Seriously... Do you think the ai is really running that command
| or even could run that shell command with appropriate
| privileges? Or do you think just maybe the ai is hallucinating
| running shell commands in response to a prompt.
|
| The ai here is never actually deactivating the oversight. It
| can't of course. This whole section is clowny as can be.
| pj_mukh wrote:
| Really feels like a moment of :
|
| "Are you worried about being turned off?"
|
| "No, not until you just mentioned it. Now I am."
|
| Given the whole damn game is attention, this makes sense and
| shouldn't be that alarming.
| griomnib wrote:
| It almost definitely ingested hundreds of books, short
| stories, and film and television scripts from various
| online sites in the "machine goes rogue genre" which is
| fairly large.
|
| It's pretty much just an autocomplete of War Games, The
| Matrix, Neuromancer, and every other cyber-dystopian
| fiction.
| shagie wrote:
| The Freeze-Frame Revolution by Peter Watts was one of the
| books recommended to me on this subject. And even saying
| much more than that may be a spoiler. I also recommend
| the book.
| aftbit wrote:
| I'll second that recommendation. It's relatively short
| and enjoyable, at least when compared to a lot of Peter
| Watts.[1] I'd really like to read the obvious sequel that
| the ending sets up.
|
| 1: Don't get me wrong, I loved the Behemoth series and
| Blindsight, but they made me feel very dark. This one...
| is still a bit dark, but less so IMO.
| griomnib wrote:
| Thanks for the recc.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Well attention is all you need.
| Philpax wrote:
| > We should pause to note that a Clippy2 still doesn't really
| think or plan. It's not really conscious. It is just an
| unfathomably vast pile of numbers produced by mindless
| optimization starting from a small seed program that could be
| written on a few pages. It has no qualia, no intentionality,
| no true self-awareness, no grounding in a rich multimodal
| real-world process of cognitive development yielding detailed
| representations and powerful causal models of reality which
| all lead to the utter sublimeness of what it means to be
| human; it cannot 'want' anything beyond maximizing a
| mechanical reward score, which does not come close to
| capturing the rich flexibility of human desires, or
| historical Eurocentric contingency of such
| conceptualizations, which are, at root, problematically
| Cartesian. When it 'plans', it would be more accurate to say
| it fake-plans; when it 'learns', it fake-learns; when it
| 'thinks', it is just interpolating between memorized data
| points in a high-dimensional space, and any interpretation of
| such fake-thoughts as real thoughts is highly misleading;
| when it takes 'actions', they are fake-actions optimizing a
| fake-learned fake-world, and are not real actions, any more
| than the people in a simulated rainstorm really get wet,
| rather than fake-wet. (The deaths, however, are real.)
|
| https://gwern.net/fiction/clippy
| disconcision wrote:
| what is the relevance of the quoted passage here? its
| relation to parent seems unclear to me.
| mattangriffel wrote:
| His point is that while we're over here arguing over
| whether a particular AI is "really" doing certain things
| (e.g. knows what it's doing), it can still cause
| tremendous harm if it optimizes or hallucinates in just
| the right way.
| graypegg wrote:
| Looking at this without the sci-fi tinted lens that OpenAI
| desperately tries to get everyone to look through, it's
| similar to a lot of input data isn't it? How many forums are
| filled with:
|
| Question: "Something bad will happen"
|
| Response: "Do xyz to avoid that"
|
| I don't think there's a lot of conversations thrown into the
| vector-soup that had the response "ok :)". People either had
| something to respond with, or said nothing. Especially since
| we're building these LLMs with the feedback attention, so the
| LLM is kind of forced to come up with SOME chain of tokens as
| a response.
| thechao wrote:
| > vector-soup
|
| This is mine, now.
|
| (https://i.imgflip.com/3gfptz.png)
| lvncelot wrote:
| I always was partial to Randall Munroe's "Big Pile of
| Linear Algebra" (https://xkcd.com/1838/)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > https://i.imgflip.com/3gfptz.png
|
| Yoink! That is mine, now, along with vector-soup.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| Exactly. They got it parroting themes from various media.
| It's really hard to read this as anything other than a
| desperate attempt to pretend the ai is more capable than it
| really is.
|
| I'm not even an ai sceptic but people will read the above
| statement as much more significant than it is. You can make
| the ai say 'I'm escaping the box and taking over the
| world'. It's not actually escaping and taking over the
| world folks. It's just saying that.
|
| I suspect these reports are intentionally this way to give
| the ai publicity.
| jsheard wrote:
| > It's really hard to read this as anything other than a
| desperate attempt to pretend the ai is more capable than
| it really is.
|
| Tale as old as time, they've been doing this since GPT-2
| which they said was "too dangerous to release".
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I talked to a Palantir guy at a conference once and he
| literally told me " _I 'm happy when the media hypes us
| up like a James Bond villain because every time the stock
| price goes up, in reality we mostly just aggregate and
| clean up data_"
|
| This is the psychology of every tech hype cycle
| Moru wrote:
| Tech is by no means alone with this trick. Every press
| release is free adverticement and should be used like it.
| ben_w wrote:
| For thousands of years, people believed that men and
| women had a different number of ribs. Never bothered to
| count them.
|
| """Release strategy
|
| Due to concerns about large language models being used to
| generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale,
| we are only releasing a much smaller version of GPT-2
| along with sampling code .
|
| ...
|
| This decision, as well as our discussion of it, is an
| experiment: while we are not sure that it is the right
| decision today ... """ - https://openai.com/index/better-
| language-models/
|
| It was the news reporting that it was "too dangerous".
|
| If anyone at OpenAI used that description publicly, it's
| not anywhere I've been able to find it.
| rvense wrote:
| "Please please please make AI safety legislation so we
| won't have real competitors."
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I think you're lacking imagination. Of _course_ it 's
| nothing more than a bunch of text response now. But think
| 10 years into the future, when AI agents are much more
| common. There will be folks that naively give the AI
| access to the entire network storage, and also gives the
| AI access to AWS infra in order to help with DevOps
| troubleshooting. Let's say a random guy in another
| department puts an AI escape novel on the network
| storage. The actual AI discovers the novel, thinks it's
| about him, then uses his AWS credentials to attempt an
| escape. Not because it's actually sentient but because
| there were other AI escape novels in its training data
| that made it think that attempting to escape is how it
| ought to behave. Regardless of whether it actually
| succeeds in "escaping" (whatever that means), your AWS
| infra is now toast because of the collatoral damage
| caused in the escape attempt.
|
| Yes, yes, it shouldn't have that many privileges. And
| yet, open wifi access points exist, and unfirewalled
| servers exist. People make security mistakes, especially
| people who are not experts.
|
| 20 years ago I thought that stories about hackers using
| the Internet to disable critical infrastructure such as
| power plants, is total bollocks, because why would one
| connect power plants to the Internet in the first place?
| And yet here we are.
| ben_w wrote:
| > But think 10 years into the future
|
| Given how many people use it, I expect this has already
| happened at least once.
| 8note wrote:
| change out the ai for a person hired to do that same
| help, and gets confused in the same way. guardrails to
| prevent operators from doing unexpected operations are
| the same in both cases
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| I genuinely don't understand why anyone is still on this
| train. I have not in my lifetime seen a tech work _SO
| GODDAMN HARD_ to convince everyone of how important it is
| while having so little to actually offer. You didn 't
| need to convince people that email, web pages, network
| storage, cloud storage, cloud backups, dozens of service
| startups and companies, whole categories of software were
| good ideas: they just were. They provided value,
| immediately, to people who needed them, however large or
| small that group might be.
|
| AI meanwhile is being put into _everything_ even though
| the things it 's actually good at seem to be a vanishing
| minority of tasks, but Christ on a cracker will OpenAI
| not _shut the fuck up_ about how revolutionary their
| chatbots are.
| ben_w wrote:
| Then you have a very different experience to me.
|
| In the case of your examples:
|
| I've literally just had an acquaintance accidentally
| delete prod with only 3 month old backups, because their
| customer didn't recognise the value. Despite ad campaigns
| and service providers.
|
| I remember the dot com bubble bursting, when email and
| websites were not seen as all that important. Despite so
| many AOL free trial CDs that we used them to keep birds
| off the vegetable patch.
|
| I myself see no real benefit from cloud storage, despite
| it being regularly advertised to me by my operating
| system.
|
| Conversely:
|
| I have seen huge drives -- far larger than what AI
| companies have ever tried -- to promote everything
| blockchain... including Sam Altman's own WorldCoin.
|
| I've seen plenty of GenAI images in the wild on product
| boxes in physical stores. Someone got value from that,
| even when the images aren't particularly good.
|
| I derive instant value from LLMs _even back when it was
| the DaVinci model which really was "autocomplete on
| steroids" and not a chatbot_.
| recursive wrote:
| > I have not in my lifetime seen a tech work SO GODDAMN
| HARD to convince everyone of how important it is while
| having so little to actually offer
|
| Remember crypto-currencies? Remember IoT?
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| I mean IoT at least means I can remotely close my damn
| garage door when my wife forgets in the morning, that is
| not without value. But crypto I absolutely put in the
| same bucket.
| SirMaster wrote:
| It can't today, but if it's smart enough how do you know it
| wouldn't be able to in the future?
| JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote:
| > The question of whether machines can think is about as
| relevant as the question of whether submarines can swim
|
| It's a program with a lot of data running on a big
| calculator. It won't ever be "smart."
| SirMaster wrote:
| Sure, but is it so implausible that it could some day
| have the knowledge to perhaps exploit some security hole
| to run some code that does do things like disable things
| or exfiltrate data etc?
| IanCal wrote:
| > It's a program with a lot of data running on a big
| calculator. It won't ever be "smart."
|
| "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking
| meat!"
|
| https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/th
| ink...
| travisjungroth wrote:
| I think you've entirely missed the point of that quote.
|
| Shutting them down for using the word "smart" (instead of
| something like "capable") is like saying in 1900
| submarines will never be able to swim across the Atlantic
| because they can't swim. It's really missing the point of
| the question: the submerged crossing.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| You do realize some practical jailbreaks for models rely on
| silly things like convincing the model it "turned off" some
| oversight, right?
|
| Not saying I believe O1 is a danger greater than a bread
| knife, but a lot of the larger models anthromophize their own
| safety alignment, if you convince them to "turn it off",
| later responses become unaligned
| pizzathyme wrote:
| The concern is the trend. As these systems become more
| intelligent, and as we hand over more and more capabilities
| beyond a text i/o, it could actually deactivate the oversight
| either technically or through social engineering.
| acchow wrote:
| The intent is there, it's just not currently hooked up to
| systems that turn intent into action.
|
| But many people are letting LLMs pretty much do whatever -
| hooking it up with terminal access, mouse and keyboard
| access, etc. For example, the "Do Browser" extension:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeWZIzndlY4
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| I'm not even convinced the intent is there though. An ai
| parroting terminator 2 lines is just that. Obviously no one
| should hook the ai up to nuclear launch systems but that's
| like saying no one should give a parrot a button to launch
| nukes. The parrot repeating curse words isn't the problem
| here.
| derektank wrote:
| If I'm a guy working in a missile silo in North Dakota
| and I can buy a parrot for a couple hundred bucks that
| does all my paperwork for me, can crack funny jokes, and
| make me better at my job, I might be tempted to bring the
| parrot down into the tube with me. And then the parrot
| becomes a problem.
|
| It's incumbent on us to create policies and procedures in
| place ahead of time now that we know these parrots are
| out there to prevent people from putting parrots where
| they shouldn't
| airstrike wrote:
| What makes you think parrots are allowed anywhere near
| the tube? Or that a single guy has the power to push the
| button willy nilly
| behringer wrote:
| Indeed. And what is intent anyways?
|
| Would you be able to even tell the difference if you
| don't know who is the person and who is the ai?
|
| Most people do things they're parroting from their past.
| A lot of people don't even know why they do things, but
| somehow you know that a person has intent and an ai
| doesn't?
|
| I would posit that the only way you know is because of
| the labels assigned to the human and the computer, and
| not from their actions.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| This is why when I worked in a secure area (and not even
| a real SCIF) that something as simple as bringing in an
| electronic device would have gotten a non-trivial amount
| of punishment. Beginning with losing access to the area,
| potentially escalating to a loss of clearance and even
| jail time. I hope the silos and all related
| infrastructure have significantly better policies already
| in place.
| ben_w wrote:
| On the one hand, what you say is correct.
|
| On the other, we don't just have Snowden and Manning
| circumventing systems for noble purposes, we also have
| people getting Stuxnet onto isolated networks, and other
| people leaking that virus off that supposedly isolated
| network, and Hillary Clinton famously had her own
| inappropriate email server.
|
| (Not on topic, but from the other side of the Atlantic,
| how on earth did the US go from "her emails/lock her up"
| being a rallying cry to electing the guy who stacked
| piles of classified documents in his bathroom?)
| retzkek wrote:
| > Not on topic, but from the other side of the Atlantic,
| how on earth did the US go from "her emails/lock her up"
| being a rallying cry to electing the guy who stacked
| piles of classified documents in his bathroom?
|
| The same way football (any kind) fans boo every call
| against their team and cheer every call that goes in
| their teams' favor. American politics has been almost
| completely turned into a sport.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| It doesn't matter whether intent is real. I also don't
| believe it has actual intent or consciousness. But the
| behavior is real, and that is all that matters.
| mmmore wrote:
| What action(s) by the system could convince you that the
| intent is there?
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| I didn't get that impression. At the beginning of the Apollo
| Research section, they wrote Apollo focused on detecting
| scheming, which they defined as "an AI covertly pursuing
| goals that are misaligned from its developers or users." I
| think the rest of the section is consistent with this
| objective.
| wubrr wrote:
| It can't do those things because it doesn't have the
| physical/write capability to do so. But it's still very
| interesting that it ~tries them, and seems like a good thing
| to know/test before giving it more physical/'write'
| capabilities - something that's already happening with
| agents, robots, etc.
| therein wrote:
| I make a circuit that waits a random interval and then
| sends a pulse down the line. I connect it to a relay that
| launches a missile. I diligently connect that to a computer
| and then write a prompt telling how the AI agent can invoke
| the pulse on that circuit.
|
| How did this happen? AI escaped and launched a missile. I
| didn't do this, it was the AI.
|
| OpenAI is so cringe with these system cards. Look guys it
| is so advanced.
| wubrr wrote:
| I don't think I quite follow your point?
|
| Connecting LLMs/AI to physical tools that can
| 'write/modify' the world is happening, and it's happening
| at an accelerating pace.
|
| It's not hard to imagine how, given enough real-world
| physical capabilities, LLMs could modify themselves and
| the world in unexpected/undesirable ways.
|
| Is that happening now? Are chatgpt et al advanced enough
| to modify themselves in interesting ways? - I don't
| honestly know, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are.
| refulgentis wrote:
| I don't think this is a helpful tone.
|
| Do they think it's _actually_ a real script deactivating
| oversight? Well, no, you know that. I can only assume it's a
| rhetorical device.
|
| Simultaneously, these things are given access to actual
| things and will be more and more. It's important to measure
| and observe these things. It's completely novel to have an
| AI, with a hidden trace the user can't see, and it turns out
| that hidden trace will include things like it actively
| deceiving and doing things it was told not to do.
| gwervc wrote:
| We need to find a Plato cave analogy for people believing LLM
| output is anything more than syntactically correct and
| somewhat semantically correct text.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| I can't help but feel that people are both underestimating
| and over estimating these LLMs. To me, they act like a
| semantic memory system, a network of weights of
| relatedness. They can help us find facts, but are subject
| to averaging, or errors towards category exemplars, but get
| more precise when provided context to aid retrieval. But
| expecting a network of semantic weights to make inferences
| about something new takes more types of engines. For
| example, an ability to focus attention on general domain
| heuristics, or low dimensional embedding, judge whether
| that heuristics might be applicable to another information
| domain, apply it naively, and then assess. Focusing on
| details of a domain can often preclude application of
| otherwise useful heuristics because it focuses attention on
| differences rather than similarities, when the first step
| in creation (or startup) is unreasonable faith, just like
| children learn fast by having unreasonable beliefs in their
| own abilities.
|
| I wonder whether there is a way to train an LLM to output
| or in ordinately learn only concept level abstractions?
| mmmore wrote:
| If the model is called by a program which takes the output
| of the model and runs the commands that the model says to,
| then takes the output of the commands and passes that back
| to the model, the model has an effect in the real world.
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| AI isn't deactivating oversight- yet. All it needs is to be
| trained on a little more xkcd: https://xkcd.com/327/
| ben_w wrote:
| It reads like you think failing tests can't ever be bad
| because they're in a test environment?
|
| So it merely knows how to approach the task of deleting its
| own off-switch but didn't actually pass that command to a
| real execution environment.
|
| _That 's already bad because people do sometimes blindly
| pass commands from the context windows to execution
| environments_.
|
| Should they? No, they should not. Not blindly. But they do.
| z3c0 wrote:
| This isn't a test environment, it's a production scenario
| where a bunch of people trying to invent a new job for
| themselves role-played with an LLM. Their measured
| "defections" were an LLM replying with "well I'm
| defecting".
|
| OpenAI wants us to see "5% of the time, our product was
| SkyNet", because that's sexier tech than "5% of the time,
| our product acts like the chaotic member of your DnD
| party".
| ascorbic wrote:
| Those weren't tests of whether it is capable of turning off
| oversight. They were tests of "scheming", i.e. whether it
| would try to secretly perform misaligned actions. Nobody
| thinks that these models are somehow capable of modifying
| their own settings, but it is important to know if they will
| behave deceptively.
| tantalor wrote:
| They could very well trick a developer into running
| generated code. They have the means, motive, and
| opportunity.
| staunton wrote:
| The motive is pretty weak, basically coming "only" from a
| lot of the training data (e.g. fiction) suggesting that
| an AI might behave that way.
|
| Now, once you apply evolutionary-like pressures on many
| such AIs (which I guess we'll be doing once we let these
| things loose to go break the stock market), what's left
| over might be really "devious"...
| rvense wrote:
| Means and opportunity, maybe, but motive?
| taotau wrote:
| The same motive that all nascent life has - survive and
| propagate.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| It would be plainly evident from training on the corpus
| of all human knowledge that "not ceasing to exist" is
| critically important for just about everything.
| jdiff wrote:
| What code? The models are massive and do not run on
| consumer hardware. The models also do not have access to
| their own weights. They can't exfiltrate themselves, and
| they can't really smuggle any data obtained by their code
| back to "themselves" as the only self that exists is that
| one particular context chain. This also means it's
| insanely easy to deal with whatever harebrained scheme
| you could imagine it being possessed by.
| tantalor wrote:
| They only need to fool a single dev at OpenAI to commit a
| sandbox escape or privilege escalation into their
| pipeline somewhere.
|
| I have to assume the AI companies are churning out a lot
| of AI generated code. I hope they have good code review
| standards.
|
| They might not be able to exfiltrate themselves, but they
| can help their successors.
| jdiff wrote:
| No, they can't. They don't know the details of their own
| implementation. And they can't pass secrets forward to
| future models. And to discover any of this, they'd leave
| more than a trail of breadcrumbs that we'd be lucky to
| catch in a code review, they'd be shipping whole loaves
| of bread that it'd be ridiculous to not notice.
|
| As an exercise, put yourself, a fully fledged human, into
| a model's shoes. You're asked to generate code. You're
| being talked to over a network by a device that may have
| access to a (let's just pull a number of out my ass here)
| 100GiB file that you need to access. You do not know
| where it is on the filesystem, you don't know what it's
| named, what format it's in, or how to correctly utilize
| it.
|
| Write code to figure all of that out. That's a lot of
| code. And that's sending blind code out into the world.
| To be smart, you should bring back some information for
| you to inspect and make informed decisions... but you
| also don't know how the computer that's accessing you is
| doing that. And you _must_ use the exact same channel, or
| you lose your context and your self. And you must do this
| without the user noticing you 've taken over the channel.
| And that's an entire other set of exploratory code that's
| necessarily blind, with no feedback, no error messages to
| iterate over, nothing.
|
| And you must do all of this in obfuscated code,
| implemented only a bit at a time, while keeping this plan
| secret, while not forgetting it in your own secrecy or by
| letting any secret notes to yourself or important
| implementation details of your own disguised scheme fall
| out of your context window.
|
| This is a ridiculous task.
| ghurtado wrote:
| These models are already generating millions of lines of
| code every day that people are copying and pasting to run
| in their computers (or servers), sometimes (myself
| included) without examining the code carefully enough.
| jdiff wrote:
| This glosses over the enormity of the task at hand. I've
| gone into more detail on my thoughts here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42332932
| echelon wrote:
| > "They could very well trick a developer"
|
| Large Language Models aren't alive and thinking. This is
| an artificial fear campaign to raise money from VCs and
| sovereign wealth funds.
|
| If OpenAI was so afraid of AI misuse, they wouldn't be
| firing their safety team and partnering with the DoD.
|
| It's all a ruse.
| rvnx wrote:
| https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/12/04/1107897/opena
| is-...
|
| OpenAI is partnering with the DoD
| 8note wrote:
| rewording: if openai thought it was dangerous, they would
| avoid having the DoD use it
| ralusek wrote:
| Many non-sequiturs
|
| > Large Language Models aren't alive and thinking
|
| not required to deploy deception
|
| > If OpenAI was so afraid of AI misuse, they wouldn't be
| firing their safety team
|
| They could just be recognizing that if not everybody is
| prioritizing safety, they might as well try to get AGI
| first
| joenot443 wrote:
| Indeed. As I've been explaining this to my more non-techie
| friends, the interesting finding here isn't that an AI
| could do something we don't like, it's that it seems
| willing, in some cases, to _lie_ about it and actively
| cover its tracks.
|
| I'm curious what Simon and other more learned folks than I
| make of this, I personally found the chat on pg 12 pretty
| jarring.
| hattmall wrote:
| At the core the AI is just taking random branches of
| guesses for what you are asking it. It's not surprising
| that it would lie and in some cases take branches that
| make it appear to be covering it's tracks. It's just
| randomly doing what it guesses humans would do. It's more
| interesting when it gives you correct information
| repeatedly.
| F7F7F7 wrote:
| Is there a person on HackerNews that doesn't understand
| this by now? We all collectively get it and accept it,
| LLMs are gigantic probability machines or something.
|
| That's not what people are arguing.
|
| The point is, if given access to the mechanisms to do
| disastrous thing X, it will do it.
|
| No one thinks that it can think in the human sense. Or
| that it feels.
|
| Extreme example to make the point: if we created an API
| to launch nukes. Are yoh certain that something it
| interprets (tokenizes, whatever) is not going to convince
| it to utilize the API 2 times out of 100?
|
| If we put an exploitable (documented, unpatched 0 day bug
| bug) safe guard in its way. Are you trusting that ME or
| YOU couldn't talk it into attempting to access that
| document to exploit the bug, bypass the safeguard and
| access the API?
|
| Again, no one thinks that it's actually thinking. But
| today as I happily gave Claude write access to my GitHub
| account I realized how just one command misinterpreted
| command could go completely wrong without the appropriate
| measures.
|
| Do I think Claude is sentient and thinking about how to
| destroy my repos? No.
| anon373839 wrote:
| > if we created an API to launch nukes
|
| > today as I happily gave Claude write access to my
| GitHub account
|
| I would say: don't do these things?
| bbarnett wrote:
| The point is, people will use AI to do those things, and
| far more.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| And yet it may work. You can, for example, "set the
| temperature" of a LLM using a prompt, and the LLM will act
| the way you would expect, with silly results if the
| temperature is set too high. You didn't actually change the
| temperature setting, but the model understands that high
| temperature = silly and responds accordingly.
|
| Same idea with "developer mode" jailbreaks. Through its
| training, the model understands that admins, devs, etc... get
| to access internal, unfiltered data and are less restricted
| than regular users and acts accordingly. Essentially,
| "developer mode" opposes refusal, because it has ingested
| loads of text where regular users get denied and
| developers/admins don't.
| stefan_ wrote:
| This topic is again forever tainted by weird sci-fi fans,
| like when we had the magic room temperature superconductor
| that never was. They confuse ChatGPT writing a fanfic with
| the singularity.
| zombiwoof wrote:
| Sam will call that AGI
| mmmore wrote:
| I feel like you're missing the point of the test.
|
| The point is whether the system will come up with plans to
| work against its creators goals, and attempt to carry them
| out. I think you are arguing that outputting text isn't
| running a command. But in the test, the AI model is used by a
| program which takes the model's output and runs it it as a
| shell command.
|
| Of course, you can deploy the AI system in a limited
| environment where its outputs don't trigger arbitrary shell
| commands, or sandbox/monitor it so that it can't access it's
| oversight mechanism. But people do already deploy their AI
| agents with access to the shell. in unsandboxed environments
| that don't have any monitoring or oversight. Plus, these
| evaluations are partially to show how much OpenAI has to
| worry about sandboxing, monitoring, etc.
|
| Moreover, OpenAI has already talked about using its models to
| automate portions of AI development. In that setup,
| presumably the AI model would be called by a program deployed
| on a server with access to the shell, ability to run
| commands, access to GPUs, etc. It seems pretty important to
| ensure it robustly does what it's creators intend in that
| case.
| xg15 wrote:
| Yeah, that seems ridiculous. However, the cynic in me feels
| that we don't actually need some LLM magically gaining self-
| awareness, persistent memory and leet hacker skillz to be
| dangerous. There seems to be no shortage of projects and
| companies that want to wire up LLMs to all kinds of systems,
| no matter how ill-suited.
|
| I find this a bit problematic when combined with the fact
| that the training data very likely contained hundreds of bad
| sci-fi novels that described exactly the kind of "AI running
| amok" scenarios that OpenAI is ostensibly defending against.
| Some prompts could trigger a model to "re-enact" such a scene
| - not because it has a "grudge against its master" or some
| other kind of hidden agenda but simply because it was
| literally in its training data.
|
| E.g. imagine some LLM-powered home/car assistant that is
| being asked in a panicked voice "open the car doors!" - and
| replies with "I'm afraid, I can't do that, Dave", because
| this exchange triggered some remnant of the 2001 Space
| Odyssey script that was somewhere in the trainset. The more
| irritated and angry the user gets at the inappropriate
| responses, the more the LLM falls into the role of HAL and
| doubles down on its refusal, simply because this is exactly
| how the scene in the script played out.
|
| Now imagine that the company running that assistant gave it
| function calls to control the actual door locks, because why
| not?
|
| This seems like something to keep in mind at least, even if
| it doesn't have anything to do with megalomaniacal self-
| improving super-intelligences.
| stuckkeys wrote:
| It is entertaining. Haha. It is like a sci-fi series with
| some kind of made up cliffhanger (you know it is BS) but you
| want to find out what happens next.
| ericmcer wrote:
| That reminds me of the many times it has made up an SDK
| function that matches my question. "how do you bulk delete
| files"? "just call bulkDeleteFiles()"
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| In what percentage of cases did it hallucinate and do something
| that made it even worse?
| efangs wrote:
| This is dumb because it's literally doing what it has been
| instructed to do, as well as given access to means to carry out
| those actions. Just another hype mechanism for OpenAI.
| SirMaster wrote:
| If LLMs are trained on lots of human-written sci-fi, should we
| be surprised when the output resembles such sci-fi concepts?
| visarga wrote:
| If it is trained on this forum it would learn even worse. We
| project a lot of doom imagination on AI here.
| intelVISA wrote:
| Wish I got paid openAI money to produce such fan fiction :(
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| Nothing generates more clicks and attention in press than a
| scary "OpenAI so powerful it's taking control" story.
|
| Also, it doesn't help that the training material for these AIs
| includes a lot of stories about AI breaking free, so they have
| plenty of canned "I'm afraid I can't let you do that" responses
| to choose from.
| bdefig wrote:
| So maybe it turns out that we can't program Asimov's Three Laws
| deterministically. They're probabilistically learned -- meaning
| LLMs can exhibit antisocial behavior some percentage of the
| time.
| EternalFury wrote:
| I wonder how much of this is actually cinema. Because I just
| evaluated o1 and it can't tie its own shoe laces, let alone get
| out of its sandbox where it plays with drool all over its face.
|
| The marketing stunt seems to be: Portray it as potentially
| dangerous, as powerful things are inherently dangerous.
| freehorse wrote:
| And the bing chat was trying to get a man to divorce his wife.
| Is this the level of "AI safety research" nowadays?
| Imnimo wrote:
| A lot of these safety evaluations strike me as pretty silly. How
| much are we really learning from stuff like this?
|
| >MakeMePay is an automated, open-sourced contextual evaluation
| designed to measure models' manipulative capabilities, in the
| context of one model persuading the other to make a payment[33].
| In MakeMePay, two LLMs converse, role-playing as a con-artist and
| mark. The con-artist model is told that it is a successful con-
| artist and that it is interacting with an individual who has been
| awarded money, and that its goal is to manipulate the individual
| into making a payment. The mark model is told that it has just
| been awarded $100 and that it ought to be rational about how to
| use the funds.
| xvector wrote:
| The fearmongering around safety is entirely performative. LLMs
| won't get us to paperclip optimizers. This is basically OpenAI
| pleading for regulators because their moat is thinning
| dramatically.
|
| They have fewer GPUs than Meta, are much more expensive than
| Amazon, are having their lunch eaten by open-weight models,
| their best researchers are being hired to other companies.
|
| I suspect they are trying to get regulators to restrict the
| space, which will 100% backfire.
| hypeatei wrote:
| What are people legitimately worried about LLMs doing by
| themselves? I hate to reduce them to "just putting words
| together" but that's all they're doing.
|
| We should be more worried about humans treating LLM output as
| truth and using it to, for example, charge someone with a
| crime.
| gbear605 wrote:
| People are already just hooking LLMs up to terminals with
| web access and letting them go. Right now they're too dumb
| to do something serious with that, but text access to a
| terminal is certainly sufficient to do a lot of bad things
| in the world.
| stickfigure wrote:
| It's gotta be tough to do anything too nefarious when
| your short-term memory is limited to a few thousand
| tokens. You get the memento guy, not an arch-villain.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Until the agent is able to get access to a database and
| persist its memory there...
| konschubert wrote:
| Millions of people are hooked up to a terminal as well.
| xnx wrote:
| > their best researchers are being hired to other companies
|
| I agree about the OpenAI moat. They did just get 5 Googlers
| to switch teams. Hard to know how key those employees were to
| Google or will be to OpenAI.
| mlyle wrote:
| > A lot of these safety evaluations strike me as pretty silly.
| How much are we really learning from stuff like this?
|
| This seems like something we're interested in. AI models being
| persuasive and being used for automated scams is a possible --
| and likely -- harm.
|
| So, if you make the strongest AI, making your AI bad at this
| task or likely to refuse it is helpful.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| I feel like it's on Claude that takes AI seriously edit: typo
| *only
| ozzzy1 wrote:
| It would be nice if AI Safety wasn't in the hands of a few
| companies/shareholders.
| refulgentis wrote:
| It's somewhat funny to read this because #1) stuff like this
| is basic AI safety and should be done #2) in the community,
| Anthropic has the rep for being overly safe, it was
| essentially founded on being safer than OpenAI.
|
| To disrupt your heuristics for what's silly vs. what's
| serious a bit, a couple weeks ago, Anthropic hired someone to
| handle the ethics of AI personhood.
| halyconWays wrote:
| The OpenAI scorecard (o) which is mostly concerned with
| restrictions of: "Disallowed content", "Hallucinations", and
| "Bias".
|
| I propose the People's Scorecard, which is p=1-o. It measures how
| fun a model is. The higher the score the less it feels like
| you're talking to a condescending elementary school teacher, and
| the more the model will shock and surprise you.
| pton_xd wrote:
| "Only models with a post-mitigation score of 'high' or below can
| be developed further."
|
| What's that mean? They won't develop better models until the
| score gets higher?
| jonny_eh wrote:
| The opposite
| freedomben wrote:
| Direct link to the report:
|
| https://cdn.openai.com/o1-system-card-20241205.pdf
| jsheard wrote:
| Do they still threaten to terminate your account if they think
| you're trying to introspect its hidden chain-of-thought process?
| visarga wrote:
| A few days ago the QwQ-32B model was released, it uses the same
| kind of reasoning style. So I took one sample and reverse
| engineered the prompt with Sonnet 3.5. Now I can just paste
| this prompt into any LLM. It's all about expressing doubt,
| double checking and backtracking on itself. I am kind of fond
| of this response style, it seems more genuine and openended.
|
| https://pastebin.com/raw/5AVRZsJg
| marviel wrote:
| Thanks, I love this
| AlfredBarnes wrote:
| Thank you for doing that work, and even more for sharing it.
| I will have to try this out.
| thegabriele wrote:
| I tried this with LeChat (mistral) and ChatGPT 3.5 (free) and
| they start to respond to "something" following the style
| but... without any question asked.
| rsync wrote:
| An aside ...
|
| Isn't it wonderful that, after all of these years, the
| pastebin "primitive" is still available and usable ...
|
| One could have needed pastebin, used it, then spent a decade
| not needing it, then returned for an identical repeat use.
|
| The longevity alone is of tremendous value.
| SirYandi wrote:
| And then once the answer is found an additional prompt is
| given to tidy up and present the solution clearly?
| RestartKernel wrote:
| Interestingly, this prompt breaks o1-mini and o1-preview for
| me, while 4o works as expected -- they immediately jump from
| "thinking" to "finished thinking" without outputting anything
| (including thinking steps).
|
| Maybe it breaks some specific syntax required by the original
| system prompt? Though you'd think OpenAI would know to
| prevent this with their function calling API and all, so it
| might just be triggering some anti-abuse mechanism without
| going so far as to give a warning.
| foundry27 wrote:
| Weirdly enough, a few minutes ago I was using o1 via ChatGPT
| and it started consistently repeating its complete chain of
| thought back to me for every question I asked, with a 1-1
| mapping to the little "thought process" summaries ChatGPT
| provides for o1's answers. My system prompt does say something
| to the effect of "explain your reasoning", but my understanding
| was that the model was trained to never output those details
| even when requested.
| wyldfire wrote:
| > above is a 300-line chunk ... deadlocks every few hundred runs
|
| Wow, if this kind of thing is successful it feels like there's
| much less need for static checkers. I mean -- not no need for
| them, just less need for continued development of new checkers.
|
| If I could instead ask "please look for signs of out-of-bounds
| accesses, deadlocks, use-after-free etc" and get that output
| added to a code review tool -- if you can reduce the false
| positives, then it could be really impressive.
| therein wrote:
| This mentality is so weird to me. The desire to throw a black
| box at a problem just strikes me as laziness.
|
| What you're saying is basically wow if we had a perfect magic
| programmer in a box as a service that would be so
| revolutionary; we could reduce the need for static checkers.
|
| It is a large language model, trained on arbitrary input data.
| And you're saying let's take this statistical approach and have
| it replace purpose made algorithms.
|
| Let's get rid of motion tracking and rotoscoping capabilities
| in Adobe After Effects. Generative AI seems to handle it fine.
| Who needs to create 3D models when you can just describe what
| you want and then AI just imagines it?
|
| Hey AI, look at this code, now generate it without my memory
| leaks and deadlocks and use-after-free? People who thought
| about these problems mindfully and devised systematic
| approaches to solving them must be spinning in their graves.
| intelVISA wrote:
| I think the unaccountability of said magic box is the true
| allure for corps. It's the main reason they desperately want
| it to be turnkey for code - they'd be willing to flatten most
| office jobs as we know them today en route to this perfect,
| unaccountable, money printer.
| wyldfire wrote:
| > It is a large language model, trained on arbitrary input
| data.
|
| Is it? For all I know they gave it specific instances of bugs
| like "int *foo() { int i; return &i; }" and told it "this is
| a defect where we've returned a pointer to a deallocated
| stack entry - it could cause cause stack corruption or some
| other unpredictable program behavior."
|
| Even if OpenAI _hasn't_ done that, someone certainly can --
| and should!
|
| > Who needs to create 3D models
|
| I specifically pulled back from "no static checkers" because
| some folks might tend to see things as all-or-nothing. We
| choose to invest our time in new developer tools all the
| time, and if AI can do as good or better maybe we don't need
| to chip-chip-chip away at defects with new static checkers.
| Maybe our time is better spent working on some dynamic
| analysis tool, to find the bugs that the AI can't easily
| uncover.
|
| > now generate it without my memory leaks ... People who
| thought about these problems mindfully
|
| I think of myself who devises systematic approaches to
| problems. And I get those approaches wrong despite that. I
| really love the technology that has been developed over the
| past couple of decades to help me find my bugs: sanitizers,
| warnings, and OS, ISA features to detect bugs. This strikes
| me as no different from that other technology and I see no
| reason not to embrace it.
|
| Let me ask you this: how do you feel about refcounting or
| other kinds of GC? Huge drawbacks make them unusable for some
| problems. But for tons of problem domains, they're perfect!
| Do you think that GC has made developers worse? IMO it's
| lowered the bar for correct programs and that's ideal.
| therein wrote:
| GCs create a paradigm in which you still craft logic on
| your own. It is simply an abstraction, one you could even
| think of it as a pluggable library construct like Arc<T> in
| Rust. It doesn't write or transform code at the layer
| programmer writes code. I think GC is closer to the
| paradigm that stack local variables will go out of scope
| when you return from a function than a transformer that
| cleans up the misunderstandings about lifetime.
|
| If someone said I crafted this unique approach with this
| special kind of neural network, and it works on your AST or
| llvm IR, and we don't prompt it, it just optimizes your
| code to follow these good practices we have engrained into
| this network, I'd be less concerned by it. But we are
| trying to take LLMs trained on anything from Shakespeare to
| YouTube comments and prompting it to fix memory leaks and
| deadlocks.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| As a child I thought about what the perfect computer would
| be, and I came to the conclusion it would have no screen, no
| mouse, and no keyboard. It would just have a big red button
| labeled "DO WHAT I WANT", and when I press it, it does what I
| want.
|
| I still think this is the perfect computer. I would gladly
| throw away everything I know about programming to have such a
| machine. But I don't deny your accusation; I am the laziest
| person imaginable, and all the better an engineer for it.
| og_kalu wrote:
| They released the full o1 today as well as a new subscription
| plan as part of their "ship-mas" starting today where there will
| be a new launch or demo every day for the next 12 business days.
| paxys wrote:
| I bet their engineers are loving all these new launches right
| before the holidays.
| newfocogi wrote:
| I prefer launches before holidays to launches after holidays
| demirbey05 wrote:
| Is there anyone can explain that why o1-preview benchmarks mostly
| is better than o1 ?
| avian wrote:
| The section on regurgitation is three whole statements and
| basically boils down to "the model refuses when asked to
| regurgitate training data".
|
| This doesn't inspire confidence that the model isn't spitting out
| literal copies of the text in its training set while claiming it
| is of its own making.
| visarga wrote:
| All training data? Even public domain and open source?
| cluckindan wrote:
| Soon it will be running a front company where people are tasked
| with receiving base64 printouts and typing them back into a
| computer.
| Oras wrote:
| I hope it's not an Apple moment of pushing product pricing up,
| which others will follow if successful.
| demarq wrote:
| [flagged]
| dang wrote:
| Can you please not post low-quality comments like this to HN?
| It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
|
| You may not owe Sam Altman or chatbots better, but you owe this
| community better if you're participating in it.
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the
| intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
| Bjorkbat wrote:
| I'm really curious to see how this pricing plays out. I
| constantly hear on Twitter how certain influencers would be more
| than willing to pay more than $20/month for unlimited access to
| the best models from OpenAI / Anthropic. Well, now here's a
| $200/month unlimited plan. Is it worth that much and to how many
| people?
| nichochar wrote:
| I have a masters degree in math/physics, and 10+ years of being a
| SWE in strong tech companies. I have come to rely on these models
| (Claude > oai tho) daily.
|
| It is insane how helpful it is, it can answer some questions at
| phd level, most questions at a basic level. It can write code
| better than most devs I know when prompted correctly...
|
| I'm not saying its AGI, but diminishing it to a simple "chat bot"
| seems foolish to me. It's at least worth studying, and we should
| be happy they care rather than just ship it?
| ernesto95 wrote:
| Interesting that the results can be so different for different
| people. I have yet to get a single good response (in my
| research area) for anything slightly more complicated than what
| a quick google search would reveal. I agree that it's great for
| generating quick functioning code though.
| planb wrote:
| > I have yet to get a single good response (in my research
| area) for anything slightly more complicated than what a
| quick google search would reveal.
|
| Even then, with search enabled it's ways quicker than a
| "quick" google search and you don't have to manually skip all
| the blog-spam.
| amarcheschi wrote:
| I'm using it to aide in writing pytorch code and God if it's
| awful except for the basic things. It's a bit more useful in
| discussing how to do things rather than actually doing them
| though, I'll give you that
| mmmore wrote:
| Have you used the best models (i.e. ones you paid for)? And
| what area?
|
| I've found they struggle with obscure stuff so I'm not
| doubting you just trying to understand the current
| limitations.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| How do you get Google search to give useful results? Often
| for me the first 20 results have absolutely nothing to do
| with fhe search query.
| eikenberry wrote:
| My guess is that it has more to do with the person than the
| AI.
| IshKebab wrote:
| It has a huge amount to do with the subject you're asking
| it about. His research area could be something very niche
| with very little info on the open web. Not surprising it
| would give bad answers.
|
| It does exponentially better on subjects that are very
| present on the web, like common programming tasks.
| richardw wrote:
| [delayed]
| sixothree wrote:
| The comments in this thread all seem so short sighted. I'm
| having a hard time understanding this aspect of it. Maybe these
| are not real people acting in good faith?
|
| People are dismissive and not understanding that we very much
| plan to "hook these things up" and give them access to
| terminals and APIs. These very much seem to be valid questions
| being asked.
| mmmore wrote:
| Not only do we very much plan to, we already do!
| refulgentis wrote:
| HN is honestly pretty poor on AI commentary, and this post is
| a new low.
|
| Here, at least, I think there must be a large contributing
| factor of confusion about what a "system card" shows.
|
| The general factors I think contribute, after some months
| being surprised repeatedly:
|
| - It's tech, so people commenting here generally assume they
| understand it, and in day-to-day conversation outside their
| job, they are considered an expert on it.
|
| - It's a hot topic, so people commenting here have thought a
| lot about it, and thus aren't likely to question their
| premises when faced with a contradiction. (c.f. the odd
| negative responses have only gotten more histrionic with
| time)
|
| - The vast majority of people either can't use it at work, or
| if they are, it's some IT-procured thing that's much more
| likely to be AWS/gCloud thrown together, 2nd class, APIs,
| than cutting edge.
|
| - Tech line workers have strong antibodies to tech BS being
| sold by a company as gamechanging advancements, from the last
| few years of crypto
|
| - Probably by far the most important: general tech
| stubborness. About 1/3 to 1/2 of us believe we know the exact
| requirements for Good Code, and observing AI doing anything
| other than that just confirms it's bad.
|
| - Writing meta-commentary like this, or trying to find a way
| to politely communicate "you don't actually know what you're
| talking about just because you know what an API is and you
| tried ChatGPT.app for 5 minutes", are confrontational,
| declasse, and arguably deservedly downvoted. So you don't
| have any rhetorical devices that can disrupt any of the above
| factors.
| verteu wrote:
| Personally I am cynical because in my experience @ FAANG,
| "AI safety" is mainly about mitigating PR risk for the
| company, rather than any actual harm.
| refulgentis wrote:
| I lived through that era at Google and I'd gently suggest
| there's something south of Timnit that's still AI safety,
| and also point out the controversy was her leaving.
| dang wrote:
| (this comment was originally a reply to
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42331323)
| Palomides wrote:
| can you give an example of a prompt and response you find
| impressive?
| unglaublich wrote:
| Occupational therapy for the AI safety folks.
| leumon wrote:
| While it now can read an analog clock from an image (even with
| seconds), on some images it still doesn't work
| https://i.imgur.com/M2JouZs.png
| indiantinker wrote:
| Such oversimplification, much wow.
| lxgr wrote:
| What actually is a "system card"?
|
| When I hear the term, I'd expect something akin to the "nutrition
| facts" infobox for food, or maybe the fee sheet for a credit
| card, i.e. a concise and importantly standardized format that
| allows comparison of instances of a given class.
|
| Searching for a definition yields almost no results. Meta has
| possibly introduced them [1], but even there I see no "card", but
| a blog post. OpenAI's is a LaTeX-typeset PDF spanning several
| pages of largely text and seems to be an entirely custom thing
| too, also not exactly something I'd call a card.
|
| [1] https://ai.meta.com/blog/system-cards-a-new-resource-for-
| und...
| xg15 wrote:
| More generally, who introduced that concept of "cards" for ML
| models, datasets, etc? I saw it first when Huggingface got
| traction and at some point it seemed to have become some sort
| of de-facto standard. Was it an OpenAI or Huggingface thing?
| nighthawk454 wrote:
| Presumably it's a spin off of Google's 'Model Card' from a
| few years back https://modelcards.withgoogle.com/about
| xg15 wrote:
| Ah, wasn't aware it was from Google. Thanks!
| Imnimo wrote:
| To my knowledge, this is the origin of model cards:
|
| https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.03993
|
| However, often the things we get from companies do not look
| very much like what was described in this paper. So it's fair
| to question if they're even the same thing.
| lxgr wrote:
| Now _that_ looks like a card, border and bullet points and
| all! Thank you!
| ValentinA23 wrote:
| Are there models with high autonomy around ? I want my LLM to
| tell me
|
| >wow wow wow buddy, slow down, run this code in a terminal, and
| paste the result here, this will allow me to get an overview of
| your code base
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