[HN Gopher] The story of Rogue
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The story of Rogue
Author : gaws
Score : 119 points
Date : 2024-12-03 23:59 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (spillhistorie.no)
(TXT) w3m dump (spillhistorie.no)
| ggm wrote:
| The Sysadmins where I worked in leeds 82-84 invested a LOT of
| time doing codework on rogue. They also got high fu in Mud on the
| dec-10. When a PhD student worked out how to eject the memory
| resident part of Mud and get it back to zero, thereby losing the
| chief ops his power, he banned him from login for a month, and
| then once he got "finger of death" back basically harrassed the
| living shit out of his character inside the Mud.
|
| The Rogue work pre-dated Hack. I think when Hack came up, and
| there was persisting state of the dungeon and multi-user, it
| reached peak. I liked Rogue. I only know one guy who got all the
| way down. Shopkeepers were awesome, if you did wind up sneaking
| in the back wall of a shop and looting it, got very feral once
| they worked it out.
|
| Don't step on your dog, dawg. And DEFINITELY don't eat it if you
| do.
| ForOldHack wrote:
| My floppy based games were Rogue, Hack and Empire.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| If playing _rogue_ (6) is not your style, don't forget Rog-o-
| matic, the 1984 expert system that would play it for you:
| https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/rogomatic.html
| throw4847285 wrote:
| Can't wait to share this with my Dad. He went to MIT in the 1970s
| where he first encountered Rogue. Some of my earliest memories
| are sitting on my Dad's lap, watching him repeatedly die to a
| Troll. It led to a lifetime love of Rogue and
| Roguelikes/Roguelites/whatever-you-want-to-call-thems.
|
| I just picked up Shiren the Wanderer 5 for the Switch, and it's
| just the most comfortable experience in the world for me:
| identifying shields, getting hungry, and dying repeatedly.
| dogline wrote:
| Now I have to look up what's available on Switch. I've tried
| other Roguelikes, but often they get tedious without a keyboard
| (Darkest Dungeon, Into the Breach). I still want a game I can
| play kicking back with the Switch.
|
| I keep going back to Diablo, even on the Switch, because I can
| just run around and kill stuff. Hades is also good.
| jghn wrote:
| My biggest beef with modern roguelikes, including everything
| you mentioned, is almost none of them make me think, "Wow,
| this feels like rogue to me". Which is not to say that I
| don't like some of them, but I like them for completely
| different reasons.
|
| Tangentially related: As someone who not just played the crap
| out of Rogue in the early 80s but also Wizardry 1, I was
| ecstatic to find out recently that the latter was rereleased
| on modern platforms [1]. It's the original DOS game with some
| better graphics. They included some new play options to make
| it less punishing, but one can disable all of them to have
| the authentic experience
|
| [1] https://store.steampowered.com/app/2518960/Wizardry_Provi
| ng_...
| dogline wrote:
| Yeah, maybe they're not "roguelikes", but more "dungeon
| crawlers". I like dungeon crawlers. Don't know why. The
| assembly language Rogue for the Coco, mentioned in the
| article, was one of my first games I spent a lot of time
| on, and maybe that stuck.
| jghn wrote:
| I did see that Epyx Rogue is available on Switch as a
| port from an Amiga version, but it's not without UI bugs
| [1]. Also previously when I mentioned Wiz 1 I'd forgotten
| the Switch was part of the sub-thread, it's available on
| switch as well. Have been playing the hell out of it
| lately :)
|
| [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1e85mc5/
| tried_t...
| throw4847285 wrote:
| There was a linguistic shift that happened and what the
| term Roguelike means changed dramatically. Roguelike used
| to refer to a game based pretty closely on Rogue:
| procedurally generated dungeons, perma-death, item
| identification, a hunger mechanic, a specific
| implementation of turn based combat. Even ASCII graphics
| were considered necessary for some people. There was an
| organization formed to police the boundaries of what
| constituted a Roguelike that was, for better or worse, like
| the Academie Francaise in its pedantry.
|
| In Japan, Roguelikes never went out of style in the same
| way because traditional dungeon crawlers kept being made.
| So Roguelike elements found there way into games as diverse
| as Azure Dreams and Baroque.
|
| It took longer for American devs to realize that the basic
| joys of a Roguelike: the novelty of procedurally generated
| content, the pressure of permadeath, and the risk/reward
| tradeoff of trying to go down one more floor. Once indie
| devs caught the Roguelike bug, it became an epidemic of
| inserting elements of a Roguelike into every genre
| imaginable. This new genre was deemed the Roguelite, though
| this didn't make the Rogue purists happy as they had a much
| more restrictive definition. And some people just call them
| all Roguelikes.
|
| Personally, I love both Roguelikes and Roguelites, whatever
| you want to call them. Slay the Spire is one of the
| greatest video games ever made, and that wouldn't exist
| without Rogue, even though on the surface it shares very
| little in common with its ancestor. Under the surface you
| find the same joys: risk/reward, high difficulty, just one
| more run.
| jghn wrote:
| Yeah, I did go down that rabbit hole several years ago.
| It is what it is.
|
| One big part of it for me are the graphics. If the
| graphics/UI aren't kind of shitty, it's not going to
| "feel like Rogue" to me. I don't need ASCII per se, for
| instance I did most of my Rogue playing on the Mac port
| in the early/mid-80s.
|
| This isn't the full issue for me though. Take Darkest
| Dungeon as an example. I love that game. And it checks
| all the standard boxes, even my "kind of shitty"
| graphics. But ... it's not Rogue.
| kibwen wrote:
| If you want a similar vibe but in a game explicitly designed
| for controller inputs, and if you like rhythm games, then try
| Crypt Of The Necrodancer (or its Zelda-themed spinoff,
| Cadence Of Hyrule).
|
| In the same vein of controller-native games, if you want a
| platformer that is the spiritual sucessor to Nethack, then
| you want to check out the Spelunky series.
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| Hardcore purists categorize the genre into "traditional
| roguelikes" (could be mistaken for original Rogue if you
| squint) and "roguelites" (all the other genre mashups).
|
| In the traditional category, Switch has Shiren 5 and 6,
| Jupiter Hell, and Tanglewood. Maybe Dragon Fang Z and Void
| Terrarium, haven't played them. Crown Trick and Crypt of the
| Necrodancer/Cadence of Hyrule straddle the gap, not quite
| traditional and not quite "lite."
|
| ...and that's about the extent of it. A lot of traditional
| roguelikes are hobby projects without widespread commercial
| appeal that never make off PC. Meanwhile, there are hundreds
| of quality roguelites on Switch.
| throw4847285 wrote:
| I mean, Shiren is a roguelike designed from the ground up for
| console. I went back and tried the original Shiren (Mystery
| Dungeon 2) on the Super Famicom via an emulator, and it's
| amazing how much they just nailed the balance. In some ways
| it's simpler than Rogue, but in other way it's deeper.
|
| The folks at Chunsoft made some impressive games, and they
| single handedly kept the flame of the commercial Roguelike
| alive for decades (at least in Japan).
| tombert wrote:
| Rogue holds up remarkably well. I installed it about a year ago
| out of "historical curiosity", only to find myself playing it for
| almost an hour.
|
| I will admit that DRL it a bit more my style nowadays, it's
| amazing to me that a game living entirely in my terminal is still
| pretty fun.
| nrjames wrote:
| I love any opportunity to suggest people try out Brogue. It was
| developed with the idea "What would have happened if development
| continued on Rogue?"
|
| Info here: https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/
|
| Repo/downloads here: https://github.com/tmewett/BrogueCE
| card_zero wrote:
| Or many more at
| https://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Main_Page and
| https://forums.roguetemple.com, though Brogue is one of the
| best.
| julianeon wrote:
| If I had to pick one forum to be active on, it would be that
| one.
| itomato wrote:
| Isn't that Dwarf Fortress?
|
| https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| Dwarf Fortress is an amazing management game in fortress
| simulation mode, but kinda struggles as a Rogue successor.
| The layers upon layers of simulation don't mesh into a very
| satisfying experience in adventure mode, imho.
|
| Brogue is somewhat minimalist and very tightly designed. The
| design of every item, monster, and dungeon in the game is
| inextricably interwoven into a cohesive whole. It evokes very
| similar feelings to Rogue while also doing its own thing.
| Less "continued development of Rogue" and more "Unofficial
| sequel."
| sph wrote:
| Anyone know what is the _sexy_ font used in this picture?
| https://i0.wp.com/spillhistorie.no/wp-content/uploads/2024/0...
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I think it's just called AT&T PC6300. There are a bunch of
| variants but I'm somewhat confident it's in that family. The
| very high x-height and tiny, 45o slash are characteristic.
| sph wrote:
| Nope, the _y_ is markedly different than the screenshot:
| https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-
| fonts/fontlist/font?att_pc63...
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Good call. The p looks way different too. Idk then!
| fjarlq wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that's a Link MC5 terminal, which emulates DEC
| VT220 by default, but that font doesn't seem very VT220ish.
| https://vt100.net/dec/vt220/glyphs
| ForOldHack wrote:
| I cannot name it off the top of my head, but I am sure its
| here:
|
| https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/
| sph wrote:
| This only lists PC fonts, which doesn't include UNIX
| terminals. I admit I haven't checked them all just yet.
| brianzelip wrote:
| Not it, but see this related modern work!
| https://departuremono.com/
|
| And a recent and informing podcast episode about it,
| https://changelog.com/podcast/618.
| swayvil wrote:
| Just played Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup last night. The spirit is
| alive and well.
| card_zero wrote:
| CDDA for me at the moment, version 0.H Herbert was released
| last month.
|
| https://cataclysmdda.org
| anthk wrote:
| I can't compile CDDA:Bright Nights with clang 11.
| sph wrote:
| And you can play, or spectate some else, in your browser:
| https://crawl.develz.org/
| every wrote:
| NetHack is alive, well and possibly a bit over documented:
|
| https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page
| chongli wrote:
| Yes and still under active development [1]! We also just
| finished the 2024 November NetHack Tournament (TNNT) [2]! I
| played in the tournament for the first time this year. I had
| one near-win with a very challenging Monk (I was doing a bunch
| of conducts [3]) who unfortunately died to the infamous Wizard
| of Yendor (Rodney as we call him). I also had a winning run
| with a Wizard which unfortunately finished a few hours after
| the deadline at the end of the tournament, so sadly that one
| didn't count!
|
| Next year I hope to have a bit more time to play so that I can
| record a win in regulation time!
|
| [1] https://github.com/nethack/nethack
|
| [2] https://tnnt.org
|
| [3] https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Conduct
| ForOldHack wrote:
| I wish they had earlier versions.
| every wrote:
| Perhaps something like this:
|
| https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Game_history
| tolciho wrote:
| https://britzl.github.io/roguearchive/ collects a bunch of
| roguelike (or -lite?) links.
| rgreekguy wrote:
| Angband should still be under development, too.
|
| A new one I was recommended the other day: UnEpic World. It's
| also on Steam and itch.io, started development in 1992! By
| Fins!
| card_zero wrote:
| I guess you mean UnReal World (and Finns).
|
| I see Errka has recently released "Ancient Savo", which looks
| somewhat like a rewrite of URW:
|
| https://enormous-elk.itch.io/ancient-savo
|
| Here he is celebrating the release.
|
| https://www.enormouselk.com/sites/default/files/styles/w730/.
| ..
| debo_ wrote:
| You can play the entire family of angband games at
| https://angband.live
|
| And yes, mainline angband is still under active development.
| There are a couple of very popular variants too
| (frogcomposband and sil-q.)
| anthk wrote:
| I play Slash'em daily.
| every wrote:
| I do all of my NetHack gaming via ssh to Hardfought[1]. They
| offer the current vanilla and previous ones all the way back to
| 1.3d. However they specialize in variants. My favorite variant
| is xNetHack[2]...
|
| [1] https://www.hardfought.org/ [2]
| https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/XNetHack
| seanssel wrote:
| On the topic of traditional roguelikes, Caves of Qud is getting
| its 1.0 release tomorrow. Been in development for over 15 years
| now, and it's fantastic. Can't recommend it enough.
|
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/
| kibwen wrote:
| Thanks for this notice, I've been periodically checking for
| years waiting for a full release before allowing myself to dive
| in. :) Though with Path of Exile coming out Friday, it's a bad
| time to have a social life...
| cdchn wrote:
| Wow I thought it was going to be later next year. Been
| anxiously awaiting this before starting another play through.
|
| The writing for this game is just something special.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Will the 1.0 release include the switch over to the Godot
| engine?
| seanssel wrote:
| https://steamcommunity.com/app/333640/eventcomments/43387350.
| ..
|
| Doesn't look like it, unless something changed since that
| comment.
| beardyw wrote:
| Odd to see no mention of Collosal Caves. Were they unaware of it?
| anthk wrote:
| Different gender but yes, there's some spirit on it. Zorkmids
| for instance. Or objects' affecting the environment.
| floren wrote:
| It's explicitly mentioned in the section "Back to the
| seventies", right near the top of the article.
| pimlottc wrote:
| It makes me feel better to know that one of its own creators
| hasn't even beaten it. I never got anywhere near even finding the
| amulet when I was a kid, but it didn't make it any less fun!
| dave333 wrote:
| Hated the Rust Monsters on level 8 that would destroy any decent
| armor you had managed to enhance and rarely survived the Umber
| Hulks on level 18 with their ability to confuse you and the huge
| damage they did. Never found the amulet. Got fantastic keyboards
| skills for vi directional commands at least for a non-touch
| typist.
| tpurves wrote:
| I went back to Rogue as an experienced Nethack player. Managed
| to finally win it after a good number of attempts. You have to
| get lucky with some early gear finds, and then spend absolutely
| as few turns as possible on the lower levels (otherwise, you
| won't survive long down there) to grab that amulet and get out.
| Rogue, Nethack and Nethack variants like evilhackk are all
| great games.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Wonderful article, and I really enjoyed rogue. I was first
| exposed to it when doing a port of BSD to the Data General NOVA
| and it was part of the distribution.
|
| I would pick one nit with the history though, CRT computer
| terminals were absolutely considered a "whole screen" output
| device. This was because IBM had made the 3270 terminal which you
| could download a form to, the operator could fill it out (without
| any computer involvement) and then hit 'submit' and have a single
| transaction get sent to the mainframe.
|
| Yes, there were a few "dumb" terminals that were simply paperless
| teletypes, but the majority had some level of 'forms' capability
| which involved cursor addressing, different character highlights
| (blinking/underling/bold), and usually some basic box drawing
| characters. All in the service of allowing a 'fill-in' form that
| someone could be trained on quickly without having to explain
| "computers" to them at all. When the computer started up, the
| terminals would light up showing a form.
|
| In terms of the tree of life for games, I put rogue, Walter
| Bright's empire, and Civilization (also called empire in some
| cases) as the roots for so many video games in the game industry.
| spauldo wrote:
| IBM terminals are a completely different thing than what the
| popular minicomputer systems had. From what I understand, the
| 3270 wasn't a simple serial device. IBM had the advantage that
| they had control of the entire ecosystem, so their hardware and
| software worked together much like Apple stuff does today.
|
| Minicomputers (and some mainframes) generally used the kind of
| terminals as described in the article. Those things were
| everywhere.
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| > It was a very different approach from the way you would
| approach things today, where you would certainly abstract out the
| platform and try to make a game that looked and felt as close to
| identical as possible.
|
| It would be often wiser not to try, especially today : for
| instance few games are going to work as well on a small
| touchscreen as on a large monitor with mouse and keyboard.
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