[HN Gopher] Amazon Nova
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Amazon Nova
Author : scbenet
Score : 215 points
Date : 2024-12-03 18:04 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (aws.amazon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (aws.amazon.com)
| scbenet wrote:
| Technical report is available here
| https://www.amazon.science/publications/the-amazon-nova-fami...
| kajecounterhack wrote:
| TL;DR comparison of models vs frontier models on public
| benchmarks here https://imgur.com/a/CKMIhmm
| brokensegue wrote:
| So looks like they are trying to win on speed over raw metric
| performance
| azinman2 wrote:
| Either that, or that's just where they landed.
| SparkyMcUnicorn wrote:
| This doesn't include all the benchmarks.
|
| The one that really stands out is GroundUI-1K, where it beats
| the competition by 46%.
|
| Nova Pro looks like it could be a SOTA-comparable model at a
| lower price point.
| oblio wrote:
| SOTA?
| baxtr wrote:
| As a side comment: the sound quality of the auto generated voice
| clip is really poor.
|
| No match for Google's NotebookLM podcasts.
| wenc wrote:
| The autogenerated voice is Amazon Polly which is an old AWS
| speech synthesis service which doesn't use the latest
| technology.
|
| It's irrelevant to the article, which is about Nova.
| griomnib wrote:
| If you haven't seen it this may be the best use of ai-podcast
| I've seen: https://youtu.be/gfr4BP4V1R8
| bongodongobob wrote:
| This is goddamn hilarious, thank you.
| xnx wrote:
| More options/competition is good. When will we see it on
| https://lmarena.ai/ ?
| teilo wrote:
| So that's what I missed at the keynote.
| htrp wrote:
| No parameter counts?
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Since Amazon are building their own frontier models, what's the
| point of their relationship with Anthropic ?
| tokioyoyo wrote:
| If you play all sides, you'll always come on top.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| Yeah Copilot includes Claude now.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| I can only guess.
|
| 1. A company the size of Amazon has enough resources and unique
| internal data no one else has access to that it makes sense for
| them to build their own models. Even if it's only for internal
| use
|
| 2. Amazon cannot beat Anthropic at this game. They are far a
| head of them in terms of performance and adoption. Building
| these models in-house doesn't mean it's a bad idea to also
| invest in Anthropic
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| Also not putting all of your eggs in one basket.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Commoditizing complements
| jonathaneunice wrote:
| Different models have different strengths and weaknesses,
| especially here in the early days when models and their
| capabilities progress several times per year. The apps,
| programs, and systems based on models need to know how to
| exploit their specific strengths and weaknesses. So they are
| not infinitely interchangeable. Over time some of that
| differentiation will erode, but it will probably take years.
|
| AWS having customers using its own model probably improves
| AWS's margins, but having multiple models available (e.g.
| Anthropic's) improves their ability to capture market share. To
| date, AWS's efforts (e.g. Q, CodeWhisperer) have not met with
| universal praise. So for at least for the present, it makes
| sense to bring customers to AWS to "do AI" whether they're
| using AWS's models or someone else's.
| Muskyinhere wrote:
| Customers want choices. They just sell all models.
| qgin wrote:
| Not sure if this was the goal, but it does work well from a
| product perspective that Nova is a super-cheap model that is
| comparable to everything BUT Claude.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| It's not clear what the use cases are for this, who is it aimed
| at.
| dvh wrote:
| Shareholders?
| christhecaribou wrote:
| The real "customers".
| mystcb wrote:
| I'd say, people that need it. Which could be the same for all
| the other models out there.
|
| To create one model that is great at everything is probably a
| pipedream. Much like creating a multi-tool that can do
| everything- but can it? I wouldn't trust a multi-tool to take a
| wheel nut off a wheel, but I would find it useful if I suddenly
| needed a cross-head screw taken out of something.
|
| But then I also have a specific crosshead screwdriver that is
| good at just taking out cross-head screws.
|
| Use the right tool for the right reason. In this case, there
| maybe a legal reason why someone might need to use it. It might
| be that this version of a model can create something better
| that another model can't. It might be that for cost reasons you
| are within AWS, that it makes sense to use a model at the
| cheaper cost than say something else.
|
| So yeah, I am sure it will be great for some people, and
| terrible for others... just the way things go!
| dgfitz wrote:
| > I'd say, people that need it.
|
| Nobody needs Reddit hallucinations about programming.
| petesergeant wrote:
| https://artificialanalysis.ai/leaderboards/models seems to
| suggest Nova Lite is half the price of 4o-mini, and a chunk
| faster too, with a bit of quality drop-off. I have no loyalty
| to OpenAI, if it does as well as 4o-mini in the eval suite,
| I'll switch. I was hoping "Gemini 1.5 Flash (Sep)" would pass
| muster for similar reasons, but it didn't.
| xendo wrote:
| Some independent latency and quality evaluations already
| available at https://artificialanalysis.ai/ Looks to be cheap and
| fast.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| It would be nice if this was a truly open source model like OLMo:
| https://venturebeat.com/ai/truly-open-source-llm-from-ai2-to...
| sourcepluck wrote:
| Is it narrowly open source, or somewhat open source, in some
| way? Thanks for that link, anyway!
| mikesurowiec wrote:
| A rough idea of the price differences... Per 1k
| tokens Input | Output Amazon Nova Micro:
| $0.000035 | $0.00014 Amazon Nova Lite: $0.00006 |
| $0.00024 Amazon Nova Pro: $0.0008 | $0.0032
| Claude 3.5 Sonnet: $0.003 | $0.015 Claude 3.5 Haiku:
| $0.0008 | $0.0004 Claude 3 Opus: $0.015 | $0.075
|
| Source: AWS Bedrock Pricing
| https://aws.amazon.com/bedrock/pricing/
| Bilal_io wrote:
| You have added another zero for Haiku, its output cost is
| $0.004
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Thanks that had confused me when I compared same to Nova Pro
| warkdarrior wrote:
| Eyeballing it, Nova seems to be 1.5 order of magnitude cheaper
| than Claude, at all model sizes.
| holub008 wrote:
| Has anyone found TPM/RPM limits on Nova? Either they aren't
| limited, or the quotas haven't been published yet:
| https://docs.aws.amazon.com/general/latest/gr/bedrock.html#l...
| tmpz22 wrote:
| Maybe they want to gauge demand for a bit first?
| Tepix wrote:
| I suggest you give the price per million token as seems to be
| the standard.
| oblio wrote:
| I'm guessing they just copy pasted from the official docs
| page.
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Unfortunate that this seems to be inextricably tied to Amazon
| Bedrock though in order to use it..
| jklinger410 wrote:
| It's really amusing how bad Amazon is at writing and designing
| UI. For a company of their size and scope it's practically
| unforgivable. But they always get away with it.
| smt88 wrote:
| You say they "get away with it," but it makes more sense to
| conclude that UI design has a lot lower ROI than we assume it
| does as users.
| wilg wrote:
| Or that design instincts are backwards
| wavemode wrote:
| You can't conclude that.
|
| At best, you can conclude that outdated product design
| doesn't always ruin a business (clearly). But you can't
| conclude the inverse (that investing in modern product design
| doesn't ever help a business).
| handfuloflight wrote:
| That's a great point. Further, there are many sizeable
| businesses built on top of AWS where they deliver the
| abstractions with compression that earns them their margin.
|
| Case in point: tell me, from the point of view of the user,
| how many steps it takes to deploy a NextJS/React ecosystem
| website with Vercel and with AWS, start to finish.
| rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
| I think they have plenty of competition in the cloud
| computing space. It seems fair to say that their strategy
| of de-prioritizing UI/UX in favor of getting features out
| the door more quickly and cheaply has benefitted them.
|
| However, I don't think it's fair to say that this trade-off
| always wins out. Rather, they've carved out their own
| ecological niche and, for now, they're exploiting it well.
| nekoashide wrote:
| Oh I'm sure, the ACM UI was impossible to use for years to
| find certificates, they improved it, but, it will never have
| the same level of functionality that the API gives you and
| that's the bread and butter.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| That happens when you ask SWE to design. To fix this, Amazon
| will need to do extensive UX research and incrementally make
| changes until the UI doesn't look the same and is more usable.
| Because users hate sudden change.
| MudAndGears wrote:
| Everyone I know who's worked at Amazon says Jeff Bezos has his
| hand in everything to the detriment of product design.
|
| I've heard multiple accounts of him seeing a WIP and asking for
| changes that compromise the product's MVP.
| queuebert wrote:
| Is this why the everything besides the front page still looks
| like someone's first website from 1998?
| genghisjahn wrote:
| "Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages
| every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry
| Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most
| famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the
| entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said
| for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the
| company."
|
| https://gist.github.com/kislayverma/d48b84db1ac5d737715e8319.
| ..
|
| I read that post every couple of years or so.
| foundry27 wrote:
| Why was this being downvoted? It's first-party evidence
| that substantiates the claims of the parent comment, and
| adds interesting historical context from major industry
| players
| acdha wrote:
| What do you think is comparable but better? I think you're
| really seeing that they have a large organization with a lot of
| people working on different complex products, which makes major
| changes much harder to coordinate, and their market skews
| technical and prioritizes functionality higher than design so
| there isn't a huge amount of pressure.
| jgalt212 wrote:
| It's similarly amazing how long the YouTube home page takes to
| load, but it's a top 5 destination no matter how bad its
| Lighthouse Score is.
| outworlder wrote:
| > It's really amusing how bad Amazon is at writing and
| designing UI.
|
| For most of AWS offerings, it literally doesn't matter and
| logging in to AWS Console is a break glass thing.
|
| Case in point: this very article. It uses boto3 to interface
| with AWS.
| trallnag wrote:
| At the same time, AWS has tons of services that are
| explicitly designed for usage through the console. For
| example, many features of CloudWatch
| oblio wrote:
| Those are probably implemented by interns.
| zapnuk wrote:
| They missed a big opportunity by not offering eu-hosted versions.
|
| Thats a big thing for complience. All LLM-providers reserve the
| right to save (up to 30days) and inspect/check prompts for their
| own complience.
|
| However, this means that company data is potentionally sotred
| out-of-cloud. This is already problematic, even more so when the
| storage location is outside the EU.
| Tepix wrote:
| I'm not sure if hosting it in the EU will do any good for
| Amazon, there's still the US CLOUD Act: It doesn't really
| matter where the data is located.
| diggan wrote:
| > The model processes inputs up to 300K tokens in length [...] up
| to 30 minutes of video in a single request.
|
| I wonder how fast it "glances" an entire 30 minute video and
| takes until the first returned token. Anyone wager a guess?
| potlee wrote:
| > The Nova family of models were trained on Amazon's custom
| Trainium1 (TRN1) chips,10 NVidia A100 (P4d instances), and H100
| (P5 instances) accelerators. Working with AWS SageMaker, we stood
| up NVidia GPU and TRN1 clusters and ran parallel trainings to
| ensure model performance parity
|
| Does this mean they trained multiple copies of the models?
| jmward01 wrote:
| No audio support: The models are currently trained to process and
| understand video content solely based on the visual information
| in the video. They do not possess the capability to analyze or
| comprehend any audio components that are present in the video.
|
| This is blowing my mind. gemini-1.5-flash accidentally knows how
| to transcribe amazingly well but it is -very- hard to figure out
| how to use it well and now Amazon comes out with a gemini flash
| like model and it explicitly ignores audio. It is so clear that
| multi-modal audio would be easy for these models but it is like
| they are purposefully holding back releasing it/supporting it.
| This has to be a strategic decision to not attach audio. Probably
| because the margins on ASR are too high to strip with a cheap
| LLM. I can only hope Meta will drop a mult-modal audio model to
| force this soon.
| xendo wrote:
| They also announced speech to speech and any to any models for
| early next year. I think you are underestimating the effort
| required to release 5 competitive models at the same time.
| adt wrote:
| Param estimates etc:
|
| https://lifearchitect.ai/olympus/
| zacharycohn wrote:
| I really wish they would left-justify instead of center-justify
| the pricing information so I'm not sitting here counting zeroes
| and trying to figure out how they all line up.
| Super_Jambo wrote:
| No embedding endpoints?
| lukev wrote:
| This is a digression, but I really wish Amazon would be more
| normal in their product descriptions.
|
| Amazon is rapidly developing its own jargon such that you need to
| understand how Amazon talks about things (and its existing
| product lineup) before you can understand half of what they're
| saying about a new thing. The way they describe their products
| seems almost designed to obfuscate what they _really_ do.
|
| Every time they introduce something new, you have to click
| through several pages of announcements and docs just to ascertain
| what something _actually is_ (an API, a new type of compute
| platform, a managed SaaS product?)
| Miraste wrote:
| That may be generally true, but the linked page says Nova is a
| series of foundation models in the first sentence.
| lukev wrote:
| Yeah but even then they won't describe it using the same sort
| of language that everyone else developing these things does.
| How many parameters? What kind of corpus was it trained on?
| MoE, single model, or something else? Will the weights be
| available?
|
| It doesn't even use the words "LLM", "multimodal" or
| "transformer" which are clearly the most relevant terms
| here... "foundation model" isn't wrong but it's also the most
| abstract way to describe it.
| kvakvs wrote:
| Amazontalk: We will save you costs Human language: We will make
| profit while you think you're saving the costs
|
| Amazontalk: You can build on <product name> to analyze complex
| documents... Human language: There is no product, just some DIY
| tools.
|
| Amazontalk: Provides the intelligence and flexibility Human
| language: We will charge your credit card in multiple obscure
| ways, and we'll be smart about it
| oblio wrote:
| Once upon a time there were (and still are) mainframes (and SAP
| is similar in this respect). These insular systems came with
| their own tools, their own ecosystem, their own terminology,
| their own certifications, etc. And you could rent compute & co
| on them.
|
| If you think of clouds as being cross continent mainframes, a
| lot more things make a more sense.
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| They really should've tried to generate better video examples,
| those two videos that they show don't seem that impressive when
| you consider the amount of resources available to AWS. Like what
| even is the point of this? It's just generating more filler
| content without any substance. Maybe we'll reach the point where
| video generation gets outrageously good and I'll be proven wrong,
| but right now it seems really disappointing.
|
| Right now when I see obviously AI generated images for book
| covers I take that as a signal of low quality. If AI generated
| videos continue to look this bad I think that'll also be a clear
| signal of low quality products.
| ndr_ wrote:
| Setting up AWS so you can try it via Amazon Bedrock API is a
| hassle, so I made a step-by-step guide:
| https://ndurner.github.io/amazon-nova. It's 14+ steps!
| simonw wrote:
| Thank you!
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