[HN Gopher] Lessons I learned working at an art gallery
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Lessons I learned working at an art gallery
        
       Author : bkudria
       Score  : 418 points
       Date   : 2024-12-03 03:18 UTC (19 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.henrikkarlsson.xyz)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.henrikkarlsson.xyz)
        
       | beltranaceves wrote:
       | Some years ago I decided that, at some point in my life, I would
       | try and involve myself with a gallery or museum.
       | 
       | As with all things, it depends, but it seems to me that in such
       | places you can find some of the most authentic and driven people
       | out there. And it's probably quite fun to work with them.
        
         | yodon wrote:
         | Artists are like engineers. The types of decisions the two
         | groups make are wildly different, but each group makes
         | decisions for a living and focuses the rest of their time on
         | craftsmanship.
         | 
         | Also like engineers, the best make far better decisions, or are
         | far better craftsmen, or both.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | > the most authentic
         | 
         | I have found the most authentic folks are the low-key ones that
         | have a booth at an arts festival or some other show.
         | 
         | I've been to galleries, and thought the vibe was really un-
         | authentic. maybe I've been to the dysfunctional ones. Maybe
         | that it is that galleries are more about something else than
         | the art, more meta. (and they sold art not like this community
         | gallery)
         | 
         | Don't know the reality of museums.
        
           | lazyasciiart wrote:
           | The small community galleries I know are filled with artists
           | who also have a booth at the local arts festivals - and they
           | _definitely_ sell art!
        
           | jonathanstrange wrote:
           | I don't get what you're trying to say. Most art galleries are
           | businesses. They exhibits artists and artworks that sell.
           | There is nothing un-authentic or dysfunctional about it; to
           | put it more precisely, dysfunctional art galleries won't last
           | very long, just like any other business that offers products
           | that aren't in demand and don't attract buyers.
           | 
           | Are you saying that galleries usually don't last very long
           | and tend to be commercial failures?
        
             | m463 wrote:
             | I'm saying:
             | 
             | Talking to a guy in an arts festival booth, the
             | conversation is usually about the art.
             | 
             | Talking to a guy in a gallery (in the US, that sells art
             | for other people), the conversation is usually about me
             | (sizing up a sales prospect).
             | 
             | Note that galleries I'm talking about are for-profit -
             | selling people's artwork and paying the rent. If you do
             | talk to the artist, it is some artist-attends gathering and
             | there are a lot of other people talking to the frazzled
             | artist too.
             | 
             | the gallery in the article seems different, it is a
             | community coop and might have a different dynamic.
        
         | space_oddity wrote:
         | People there not just working for financial gain but for the
         | preservation and promotion of something meaningful (I mean in
         | most cases)
        
       | grammarxcore wrote:
       | I refuse to believe that not answering every single email within
       | an hour is a good predictor of anything other than being glued to
       | your phone. I think extending it to a reasonable amount of time,
       | maybe a business day max, works out pretty well. Sometimes people
       | respond really fast because they're taking regular breaks and
       | other times they don't respond all evening because they're
       | putting on their kid's birthday party. Even at work, sometimes
       | very good colleagues are doing things back-to-back for hours and
       | using short windows to do things like go to the bathroom.
       | 
       | On the other hand maybe this is some art thing I'm too far away
       | from to understand? Maybe really good artists to work with never
       | need more than twenty minutes of deep focus at a time for
       | anything?
        
         | avg_dev wrote:
         | i did take some issue with the way that point was phrased as
         | well.
         | 
         | but, i took it a little more broadly than it was actually
         | specified: people who are not great about communicating or make
         | it hard for you to work with them at the outset will probably
         | continue to be like that throughout the entirety of your
         | working relationship.
         | 
         | i watch some videos on the Tested youtube channel, where the
         | host is Adam Savage, who was one of the hosts/creators of the
         | MythBusters tv show, and he often talks about this point, and
         | how he learned it working with Jamie Hyneman early on in his
         | career where they would take clients, and Jamie explained this
         | principal.
        
         | sroussey wrote:
         | Artists tend to be in art production mode or sales mode. When
         | in sales mode and doing exhibitions, etc., good ones are very
         | responsive.
         | 
         | They work for a a year, or maybe several, then there are sales
         | to be had over the corse of a month or so. The work they are
         | selling is finished.
         | 
         | Would you work on something for years, and then when the time
         | comes to _maybe_ sell it -- not answer the phone?
        
           | ranit wrote:
           | People that work at art galleries are not artists.
        
             | vector_spaces wrote:
             | The bit in the article about email responsiveness concerned
             | artists
        
             | tayo42 wrote:
             | depends on the gallery, some make you work a shift if you
             | want to sell your art there
        
               | pbhjpbhj wrote:
               | Not professional artists (in the UK)? Curation is a
               | separate skill, and you're paying through the nose for
               | the gallery's services, usually.
        
               | tayo42 wrote:
               | it depends, but i tried to sell my paintings at local
               | galleries and some wanted me to do things like that
        
               | pbhjpbhj wrote:
               | Are you a professional [earning most of your money
               | through your art]? Which country do you live in please?
               | 
               | I've only seen the self-curation from community groups.
               | I'm all for collectives but I'm pretty sure the
               | professional artists I know would say it gives off
               | budget/desperate vibes and so it's something you can't
               | afford to do if you aspire to 'make it [big]'.
               | 
               | {I express myself through overuse of parentheses and
               | through runon sentences...}
        
             | space_oddity wrote:
             | Though they do play a crucial role in selling and promoting
             | the art
        
         | dasil003 wrote:
         | This is an uncharitable take. Who said anything about an
         | interruption every 20 minutes? We're talking about an artist
         | doing an exhibition at a gallery, by any measure, this is a
         | pretty significant collaboration that is in the artist's best
         | interest and not something their getting spammed with dozens of
         | a times a day.
         | 
         | If you read and digest the article, the point is not to create
         | a litmus test based on time-to-response, it's to recognize
         | there are a lot of people to talk a big game but are unserious
         | about achieving shared goals.
         | 
         | If an artist is not responsive because they are so serious
         | about their creative process that they don't have time to
         | respond to a gallery doing an exhibition than maybe that's the
         | right thing for what they are serious about, but it does jack
         | shit for _the gallery staffer who is serious about creating an
         | exhibition_.
        
         | smgit wrote:
         | All people are not alike. Thankfully. Refer Law of Requisite
         | Variety. Some people live to please.
         | 
         | Once you understand people are very different, the whole story
         | turns into setting teams up such that the right people are in
         | the right role. Ofcourse this is hard to pull off, so there is
         | always drama in any group.
        
         | shawndrost wrote:
         | This is not just some art thing. People note it in every field.
         | It's not the only predictor; the author of Chrome reportedly
         | did most of it offline IIRC. But it's a real phenomenon that is
         | robust in the face of the concerns you're raising. There is a
         | wide range of email responsiveness -- even among people who are
         | going to the bathroom and putting on birthday parties and doing
         | focus work -- and it is a helpful predictor.
        
         | spullara wrote:
         | I have found that folks like Jensen, Elon, Jobs, etc answer
         | their emails in 5-10 min. You be the judge.
        
           | iamacyborg wrote:
           | They have EA's that can go through their inboxes for them and
           | highlight what actually needs a response. Hell they probably
           | draft responses for them too
        
             | ponow wrote:
             | And that is so because they made it a priority for it to be
             | so.
        
         | space_oddity wrote:
         | Yep, this wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone -- especially
         | those who balance multiple roles
        
         | Kiro wrote:
         | Unfortunately it's one of those hacks that makes your look like
         | a superhuman. I hate it but obsessively answering emails and
         | messages as soon as possible has given me so many opportunities
         | that it feels like a cheat code. It's nothing reasonable about
         | it but it's just the way things are.
        
           | nobodywillobsrv wrote:
           | When people complain about this they aren't thinking about
           | how much they love people not answering them. Obviously not
           | everything needs to be answered quickly all the time but the
           | world is full of delays and waiting. Any relief is welcome.
        
           | freefaler wrote:
           | So how does that work, can you elaborate?
           | 
           | What is the difference if you answer in 10 minutes, 6 hours
           | or 24 hours? Are you competing on time of response so if
           | you're fast you're getting the deal?
        
             | ljf wrote:
             | I can only speak for myself - I produce exec/board
             | materials. Often a request will go out to several people
             | and I can get ahead by responding first. Sometimes someone
             | will reply to me quickly and the edge I bring is properly
             | digesting their response and then going back quickly to
             | them with questions. Others might accept they have a reply
             | and then wait until they are pulling the paper together to
             | realise they are missing key data.
             | 
             | I don't read or action all emails instantly, but I am very
             | aware of the ones I need to, or when I am in a period of
             | high focus that needs information fast.
             | 
             | In an ideal world I'd be in an office with all the people I
             | needed around me, all with the same focus and priorities,
             | but that is rarely the case. So to excel at my job I need
             | to make connections fast and respond fast. (Note this isn't
             | just email, this is just for my communications in general.)
        
             | lupire wrote:
             | I remember one event vividly.
             | 
             | Exec asked for some business information information while
             | traveling.
             | 
             | I replied promptly, sending a link to a webpage, within the
             | proper process for secure data sharing according to company
             | policy. This required exec to visit our internal website to
             | view the information.
             | 
             | A teammate emailed the information directly, violating
             | policy and good data stewardship.
             | 
             | CEO replied to teammate's email with a big group thank you
             | for "emailing the information quickly".
        
               | 1123581321 wrote:
               | That is classic, but you knew it would go like that when
               | you sent the link, didn't you? :)
        
             | 1123581321 wrote:
             | Replying quickly looks like you care and you already know
             | what's going on. It also suggests that you'd be willing to
             | have even more synchronous conversations (phone calls,
             | trips together, etc.)
             | 
             | Doing it during business hours matters more than off hours
             | outside of major deadlines or event prep.
             | 
             | With many organizations, if you want to give this
             | impression and also shut down communications to focus, you
             | need blocks of time outside of business hours where you
             | focus. For example, I know a responsive executive who
             | cannot be reached from 6am-9am every weekday, when most
             | people aren't trying to get hold of him. This is when he
             | writes and reads. Even then, his assistant fields
             | communications so he doesn't seem to have disappeared.
             | 
             | Not saying you should do this or that it's for everybody.
        
           | tomcam wrote:
           | Very interesting. How do you square this with the times you
           | need to concentrate?
        
           | refactor_master wrote:
           | My experience is the complete opposite. It's a weak point
           | like a supermarket that is still open at 11 pm. Do I need it?
           | No, but I'll take the service anyway since it's free.
        
             | naming_the_user wrote:
             | How is it a weak point for a supermarket to be open at 11?
             | 24 hour supermarkets are fantastic and have saved my bottom
             | many a time.
             | 
             | Do I _need_ it? No, I don't _need_ much of anything other
             | than air to breathe and a bit of food in my belly. Most
             | people don't just settle for that though.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Obligatory song to the last part of your message:
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm8oxC24QZc (Eddie Vedder
               | - Society)
               | 
               | It has always resonated with me.
        
         | bleakenthusiasm wrote:
         | I read this as "answer within the hour when preparing an
         | exhibition". If you are in full swing to get an exhibition up
         | and running and this is the time you decide to throw yourself
         | into deep focus work, you are probably hard to work with. I
         | would also assume if some artist told the author "look I know
         | we open on Tuesday, but this Friday we have my kid's birthday
         | so from 4 to 8 I won't be easy to reach", this would probably
         | just be silently dropped from the cou ting of how fast they
         | respond.
         | 
         | On the other hand, without warning going dark for 4 work day
         | hours a few days before exhibition would look terrible if any
         | serious question came up.
         | 
         | So I don't think it's literally responding within the hour, but
         | it comes pretty dang close. You have to keep in mind that being
         | an artist creating art and being an artist setting up an
         | exhibition are basically two different jobs and if you end up
         | doing them in parallel at the same time, that's your problem
         | right there.
        
           | Dylan16807 wrote:
           | How long does setting up an exhibition take, and what kind of
           | hours are you expecting? 4-8 are workday hours?
           | 
           | And what kind of question needs to be answered that fast, but
           | wasn't important enough to be asked several days earlier? My
           | feeling is that there should be very few such questions, few
           | enough that each artist can safely take half a day if they
           | get one.
        
             | ben_w wrote:
             | A day and a half is slow even in software, and software
             | doesn't have things like the example given of wanting a
             | wall put up then asking for it to be taken down again.
             | 
             | Sure, software does have bad communicators who change their
             | minds, but revert is relatively easy.
        
               | Dylan16807 wrote:
               | > A day and a half is slow even in software,
               | 
               | We're talking about half a day, not a day and a half. Or
               | really, less than half a day.
               | 
               | > and software doesn't have things like the example given
               | of wanting a wall put up then asking for it to be taken
               | down again.
               | 
               | The wall example was taking place over "weeks". If there
               | is still an urgent question about wall-building a few
               | days out then it sounds like someone waited much too long
               | and that's the real problem, not the extra four hours.
        
             | stronglikedan wrote:
             | If everyone is there to set up your exhibition at a certain
             | agreed upon time, then you should be engaged and answering
             | any questions immediately if not sooner, regardless of how
             | long it takes to set up the exhibition.
        
               | Dylan16807 wrote:
               | Certain agreed upon time? Yes, of course. You should
               | probably be there for most of it too.
               | 
               | But once you're covering multiple days, no, a single
               | person should not be expected to respond lightning fast
               | the entire time. And the several day scenario is what the
               | comment I replied to talked about.
        
           | dkga wrote:
           | I read it like so too. I don't typically respond to emails
           | immediately unless I have my email application open (which I
           | rarely do as I do enjoy time to do deep work). But in the
           | lead up to a big event there is no way I would go radio
           | silent, unless I'm unconscious in the hospital.
        
           | soco wrote:
           | Since when is email expected to be answered immediately???
           | Anything urgent means a phone call, or a text message. Emails
           | are either for cya reasons (but then my urgency is not
           | necessarily your urgency) or just big stuff needing time - to
           | write, to compose, to think, to analyse. So email answering
           | time is a wrong metric by definition.
        
         | itronitron wrote:
         | Becoming recognized as a good artist depends a great deal on
         | being an effective communicator about one's work. It's sort of
         | self-selecting but it is part of the job.
        
         | naming_the_user wrote:
         | You're trying to systematise something that is more like basic
         | human nature. It's like trying to explain why people like
         | attractive people from a utilitarian perspective.
         | 
         | In the real world I just prefer to interact with people who
         | prioritise me over other things and most people are the same.
        
           | ponow wrote:
           | Yet some artists do believe that it's morally wrong that
           | producing whatever they deem as good art isn't guaranteed to
           | be self-supporting. They shouldn't ultimately have to answer
           | to anyone else's opinion to earn a living. Which is highly
           | entitled, and non-evolutionary.
        
             | naming_the_user wrote:
             | Anyone who thinks that the Universe owes them is sorely
             | mistaken.
        
         | huijzer wrote:
         | He didn't mention a timescale. Maybe it's a difference between
         | 4 hours and 1 day? I would agree that if someone takes longer
         | than a day to respond, then it's going to be hard to work with
         | this person. 4 hours is fine.
        
         | gwbas1c wrote:
         | I interpreted it as "artists who are reasonable people produce
         | better art."
         | 
         | IE, focus more on qualities like: Asking to move a wall at the
         | last minute, needing a life counselor...
        
       | balderdash wrote:
       | I enjoyed reading this, but I felt that 90% of this person's
       | experience was simply the result of being a real contributor in
       | an organization with non-existent expectations/completely un-
       | optimized state/no other real contributors.
       | 
       | In other words it's easy to make a difference as a high performer
       | in a low performance organization.
       | 
       | Again not detracting from this persons achievements, I just don't
       | think these most of these observations apply in high performIng
       | organizations
        
         | busterarm wrote:
         | And if you're this kind of person you can absolutely crush it
         | at certain types of non-profits and NGOs that attract people
         | with a lot of ideas but no work ethic.
         | 
         | At least if you're okay with being the only person with any
         | ambition. Personally I have to flee from those environments.
        
         | robertclaus wrote:
         | I got a similar sense, especially the section where they talked
         | about needing to build trust before trying to change things. I
         | do volunteer photography, and feel the same way as this article
         | any time I do a shoot for a small organization that has never
         | gotten good photos for their business before. It's super
         | rewarding, but a completely different thing than my dayjob
         | managing a solid team of engineers.
        
         | teractiveodular wrote:
         | There are a _lot_ more low performing organizations than high
         | performing ones. Even organizations usually perceived as high
         | performing tend to have a few high performing _teams_
         | surrounded by oceans of mediocrity.
        
         | jimbokun wrote:
         | Which can be an incredibly important realization.
         | 
         | If you don't have access to high performing institutions for
         | whatever reason, this is how you can leverage a position in a
         | low performing institution to achieve a lot of success.
        
         | jchmbrln wrote:
         | > In other words it's easy to make a difference as a high
         | performer in a low performance organization.
         | 
         | And yet, the big takeaway for me is that to be a high performer
         | it isn't enough to A) know what needs to be done, or B) be able
         | to do it well. The key is C) figuring out the incentive
         | landscape.
         | 
         | His story of carving out his own job only to find he had no
         | support from the board is what I've tried before. In my low
         | performing organization, I thought I could be a high performer
         | by knowing what needed to be done and doing it well. Everybody
         | I directly worked with loved me and thought I was highly
         | effective, but I never made any lasting change like this
         | author. I didn't understand the need to skip way up the levels
         | until I was already burnt out.
        
         | wouldbecouldbe wrote:
         | It's not necessarily more easy to be great in a low performance
         | organisation. Often these organisations are low performant for
         | a reason. The worst one egos, drama and politics
        
       | outlaw42 wrote:
       | i was a security guard at an art museum for a long time. it was
       | the only job i could find after being laid off from my software
       | gig. thanks for sharing
        
         | cynicalsecurity wrote:
         | This is odd. What country and period was it?
         | 
         | Before Covid, everyone on LinkedIn was bombarded with job
         | offers as and soon as they created an account and put anything
         | IT related on it.
        
           | outlaw42 wrote:
           | USA/2022
           | 
           | I was a php dev. Sort of the Wild West over here
        
       | harisankarh wrote:
       | Nice to read. I didn't guess that the article would be so fun to
       | read and insightful. I wouldn't have even read it if it wasn't
       | ranked 1 in hackernews.
        
       | oseph wrote:
       | Lovely article! It induced an unexpected feeling of nostalgia for
       | me personally as I previously worked at an large public art
       | gallery. I was part of the marketing team and my role focused
       | mostly on the digital side: web updates and digital signage
       | throughout the space. The description of great artists in the
       | article resonated with me; the best ones where those that truly
       | did it for the art and were surprisingly humble.
       | 
       | That's not to say that all amateur artists are self-centered; I
       | met plenty of up and coming artists that felt like wizened "old
       | souls" without ego, and playful at heart. I think they were just
       | great artists in the making!
       | 
       | Even though it wasn't the most high paying job, it was really fun
       | being part of the visual art heartbeat in a city.
        
       | p1nkpineapple wrote:
       | Thanks for sharing. Henrik Karlsson is one of my favourite
       | writers on the internet at the moment. His other piece called
       | "Everything that turned out well in my life followed the same
       | design process" [1] left such a big impression on me and I return
       | to it frequently, highly recommend.
       | 
       | 1:
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20240816150009/https://www.henri...
        
         | KingFelix wrote:
         | Great essay, just read it
        
         | mwidell wrote:
         | Wow, that was a great essay. It describes the process I've been
         | using for the past 10 years to design a happy life. I had no
         | words to describe it in a good way, but now I have.
        
         | heopd wrote:
         | An alternative, more nuanced, realistic version of "follow your
         | passion" ? Follow your passion might have ended up in "follow
         | your vision", "vision" used here as the article defines it. The
         | article makes a case for "follow your context", a more workable
         | version of the popular adage. Thought provoking !
        
       | exitb wrote:
       | The article glosses over the bosses and board members, but it
       | feels that's where the story is. Often art institutions are not
       | optimized to make money for the organization, but rather to
       | employ specific people or make specific people visible in a
       | desired way. Hence the workshops and fundraisers. I suspect
       | that's why the boss, eventually becomes just a ,,first boss".
        
       | anshulbhide wrote:
       | The article itself is fantastic. However, this is a great example
       | of what makes catnip for HN -
       | 
       | 1) Use scientific terms (e.g. vector fields, waves resonance) 2)
       | Cite tech influencers (e.g. Sholto Douglas, Tyler Cowen) 3) Make
       | the subject an abstract novel field that most developers or tech
       | folk don't really pay attention and use #1 and #2 to make it
       | relevant
        
         | pickledoyster wrote:
         | Honestly, the entire blog feels that way: referencing the same
         | old tropes and personalities in a slightly novel context. A
         | sort of a comfort read for the web2.0 nostalgia crowd.
         | 
         | I guess this approach worked, since it allowed the author to go
         | on writing full time in Denmark (HCoL), which is an achievement
         | these days.
        
         | badgersnake wrote:
         | You forgot be smug and entitled. He does that a lot.
        
       | resonious wrote:
       | > But if someone else isn't measuring up, I have no idea how to
       | convince them to do so. So I look for people who have already
       | decided.
       | 
       | This reminded me of the part in Good to Great where one company's
       | success was attributed to setting up a steel factory in a
       | agriculture-heavy area, where the residents were farmers who were
       | already predisposed to working hard.
       | 
       | I'm curious if, on the flip side, anyone has any strategies for
       | "convincing someone to measure up" as the author puts it.
        
         | brazzy wrote:
         | I suspect that would need to be highly specific to the
         | individual, their personality, past experiences and current
         | situation.
        
       | krisoft wrote:
       | The problem here is that I don't trust the author on being able
       | to tell who is the "best artist". Clearly he has opinions. But
       | for example in point 3, he says he can predict which exhibition
       | will be great based on how easy it is to work with the artist. He
       | predicts that some exhibition will be crap and he is right! Which
       | sounds impressive until you notice that he is not measuring his
       | judgement against something objective, but just against his
       | judgement. He decides something will be crap and then he feels
       | crap about it once he sees it. Did others, who did not know that
       | the artist was slow to email back also feel that those
       | exhibitions were mediocre and the others not? Who knows? All we
       | have is this one man's opinion. Maybe others thought differently.
       | 
       | Even more so in his point 6. He writes "What you see in the
       | biographies of great artists, great writers, great anything is
       | that they are good at figuring out where the vectors align."
       | Which is just plainly and absolutely not true. There were plenty
       | of people who we now recognise as "great artist" who absolutely
       | could not figure out where the "incentive vectors align". Thus
       | they lived in abject poverty, or needed to support themselves
       | from something other than their art. But if your definition of
       | "great art" is that it is commercially succesfull then of course
       | what you will find that the "great artist" are all like good
       | businesman. But that doesn't tell you about what it take to be an
       | artist, just only what you value.
        
         | l5870uoo9y wrote:
         | > The problem here is that I don't trust the author on being
         | able to tell who is the "best artist".
         | 
         | A prerequisite to be considered a great artist is that the
         | artist master a "craft" to perfection be it painting, drawing,
         | sculpting, or something complete different like Burial who
         | created one of the most important electronic album using the
         | basic audio-editing software Sound Forge.
        
           | djtango wrote:
           | Is art really about craft anymore?
           | 
           | There's certainly an element of it but it's gotten very meta
           | and abstract these days.
           | 
           | What is the craft in a dirty bath tub or a robot endlessly
           | sweeping liquid?
           | 
           | Better yet what's the craft in a white canvas:
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invisible_artworks
           | 
           | I'm actually not denying there's art here, sometimes I "get
           | it" but the art of today has gotten very conceptual and meta.
           | 
           | I see similar issues with music - where the need to be
           | accessible vs original are pit against each other. Da Vinci,
           | Monet, Turner, Picasso - the art is fairly accessible.
           | Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Holst ditto.
           | 
           | But who will be remembered as being accessible and "serious"
           | from our generation in music? Probably John Williams - a film
           | composer primarily. I'm not dissing composers, one of my
           | favourites of all time is Nobuo Uematsu but I am not sure
           | what is art anymore. I wonder if art can only emerge with
           | hindsight. What did it feel like to be in the present when
           | people like Chopin and Liszt were in their heyday while
           | Delacroix and Moreau were painting. Or when Ravel and Debussy
           | were writing impressionistic music alongside Monet and Manet
           | painting
        
             | Arkhaine_kupo wrote:
             | > Is art really about craft anymore?
             | 
             | It never was, but it is still important as it always has
             | been.
             | 
             | > There's certainly an element of it but it's gotten very
             | meta and abstract these days.
             | 
             | Art is about many things. I agree that a lot of art can be
             | esoteric nowadays, mostly because its in conversation with
             | specific things, so it can feel like an inside joke, or a
             | private conversation you are not privy to. If I make an art
             | piece critiquing an article from The Economist and you
             | never read business news then my piece will be unparseable
             | for you, regardless of quality.
             | 
             | Many art pieces are in response to other art movements, or
             | to niche communities, or to conversations happening in the
             | art world etc. If you jump into a modern art gallery and
             | someone is replying to the art that was in Art Basel Miami,
             | which was a repsonse to internet art, which in itself was a
             | response to figurative early .... and then you go to this
             | art gallery and you cant get a painting because its talking
             | to someone that is not you.
             | 
             | > where the need to be accessible vs original are pit
             | against each other.
             | 
             | I dont think thats true. There are certainly artists that
             | manage to break new ground while being accesible, while
             | other prime originality over mainstream appeal. That is an
             | artistic choice to be made, in the same way retreading
             | comfortable ground or releasing a Christman Carol album is.
             | 
             | > Da Vinci, Monet, Turner, Picasso - the art is fairly
             | accessible.
             | 
             | Trying to understand the last supper without knowledge of
             | Christianity would make Da Vinci fairly hard. Monet was a
             | counter culture leader against The Salon in France which
             | prized craft, and execution over more ground breaking
             | attempts like impressionism, so hardly accesible when his
             | entire life was a fight against the culture of the time.
             | Picasso can be called many things, but accesible is not one
             | that comes to mind. Gernika can be considered striking, but
             | cubism, his portraits of women (and their significance),
             | his pottery... there is plenty of his work that needs
             | analysis and is plain ugly on first watch.
             | 
             | > But who will be remembered as being accessible and
             | "serious" from our generation in music?
             | 
             | There will be plenty. Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer for his
             | lyrics, to give a simple example his song Swimming Pools
             | about the many faces of alcoholism and its raveging effects
             | on the black community is both a popular song as well as
             | really well written narratively. From the 90s you could
             | easily pull Nirvana for offering grunge as an alternative
             | to the hyper corporate, pro capitalism, runaway train that
             | american political and social life was engaged in, while
             | having incredibly catchy songs. If you wanna go further
             | back Bob Dylan and The Beatles are absolute masters of
             | catchy tunes and powerful lyrics.
             | 
             | You said what felt to be in the present with List? Well you
             | had Lisztomania, an absolute uproar of women turning up to
             | see him. This was mocked/replicated by the beatles with
             | Beatlemania. You could argue the Boy band, Justin Bieber
             | phenomenom was that same effect although the musicality,
             | and the corporate interference shows a darker more
             | manufactured side to the art.
             | 
             | And in terms of art you have incredible art of every type
             | right now, never has art been more accesible or easy to
             | produce. What we are missing is search tools, surfacing
             | interesting works and specially people curating what stuff
             | is good from the muck. But if a tree falls in a forest, it
             | still makes sound and rn there are countless artists
             | dropping trees you just need to perk your ears up
        
               | djtango wrote:
               | Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think you've addressed
               | to some degree what I was trying to think around. That
               | art may be difficult to evaluate in its time. Monet may
               | have been a counter culture artist in his time but today
               | he has a somewhat universal appeal. Is that cultural? Are
               | we now primed to like Monet because people have told us
               | to like Monet?
               | 
               | No doubt in his time there were factions, those who
               | pandered to the institution and those who fawned over
               | innovation and originality. I'm sure these cycles occur
               | in every present.
               | 
               | So then what will be remembered from our time? As you say
               | a lot of today's art is esoteric and holding a
               | conversation not all of us are privy to.
               | 
               | I also agree that to some extent we do now have the most
               | art we ever could have. The internet and the creator
               | economy has unlocked creativity in many ways. I recall
               | some discussion the other day about the "hollowing out of
               | the middle" in musical instrument proficiency, and more
               | widely a lot of other skills. Technology and convenience
               | has eradicated a need for many skills at a "mediocre"
               | level but we also have more access to information and
               | learning than ever before.
        
         | bradley13 wrote:
         | I have worked a little bit with "artists". Too many of them are
         | caught up in their vision, and apparently incapable of dealing
         | with reality. Too many of them believe that their vision is so,
         | so unique that everyone else should sort out any problems.
         | 
         | There's one guy where I live, whom I tried to help out several
         | times. I would invest lots of effort handling the practical
         | stuff: flyers, text, web site, etc. Little thanks, because it
         | was his due. Then he would have a new idea, change direction,
         | and it was all for nothing.
        
           | specialist wrote:
           | True.
           | 
           | Part of Gage Art Academy's mission is to create working
           | artists. Students learn about (and struggle with) how to get
           | paid. Stuff like how to price their works, balancing one's
           | own artistic expression with making stuff that sells, how to
           | pull off an exhibit, etc.
           | 
           | https://gageacademy.org/
        
         | irjustin wrote:
         | > But if your definition of "great art" is that it is
         | commercially succesfull then of course what you will find that
         | the "great artist" are all like good businesman.
         | 
         | While the author doesn't explicitly define what is "great", I
         | 100% believed that what it is defined as. That "great" is being
         | commercially successful.
         | 
         | The article is premised around running a non-profit art gallery
         | in a struggling municipality. That he did a good job by
         | "helping grow the revenues"[0]. He needed money for his new
         | baby and couldn't afford to lose a job[1]
         | 
         | It is a modern day art gallery. These things are businesses
         | first - to support their own operations and then to help artist
         | support themselves and their work.
         | 
         | So yes, "great" art IS art that sells.
         | 
         | Now, what sells is highly highly subjective, and a very large
         | part of that sales process is making the customer _feel good_
         | about their purchase. And I think this is where you disagree -
         | that there is a higher, objective reality around good vs great
         | art. And for so much art, there really isn't.
         | 
         | [0] "I started was the inflection point when the revenue, which
         | had been shrinking or muddling for 5 years, began growing
         | again"
         | 
         | [1] "since I knew I couldn't afford to quit anytime soon with
         | the baby and all"
        
           | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
           | By your definition, super-successful kitsch-meisters like
           | Thomas Kinkade are great artists.
           | 
           | That's quite a niche view.
           | 
           | In fact art is an overlap of many different kinds of markets
           | selling to many different kinds of customers - from people
           | buying phone wallpapers online, to tourists buying souvenirs
           | on holiday, to oligarchs laundering money through prestige
           | purchases.
           | 
           | And many others.
           | 
           | A community gallery is going to intersect with a couple of
           | those, but not all of them. Sustainable funding is a goal,
           | but maximising income isn't.
           | 
           | Financial success doesn't sane wash narcissistic entitlement,
           | of which there is plenty outside of the arts.
        
             | krisoft wrote:
             | > By your definition, super-successful kitsch-meisters like
             | Thomas Kinkade are great artists.
             | 
             | And Vincent van Gogh is not. Or was not a great artist,
             | then he died and become a great artist somehow suddenly
             | after his death. (at least by that definition, which just
             | to make it clear, I don't agree with.)
        
               | specialist wrote:
               | I'm fine with "remembered somehow" as another useful
               | definition for "a great artist".
               | 
               | More cynically: van Gogh was only successfully monetized
               | posthumously.
        
           | krisoft wrote:
           | > While the author doesn't explicitly define what is "great",
           | I 100% believed that what it is defined as.
           | 
           | I understand that is his definition, but then talk about
           | that. Instead of saying that the exhibition ended up
           | "mediocre" say that "ticket sales were lower than expected"
           | or "sold less paintings than we hoped for", or "didn't bring
           | in anybody".
           | 
           | Because as is he just writes "after weeks of this you end up
           | with something mediocre" and "predict which exhibitions would
           | end up great". That is very vibes based. Did he just not
           | enjoy those exhibitions? Or is it tied to something objective
           | outside of his head? (such as revenue, or crowd size, or
           | critical acclaim) The first is not interesting, the second
           | is.
           | 
           | > That he did a good job by "helping grow the revenues"[0].
           | 
           | Or did not do a good job. Base on the very sentence you quote
           | which starts "It helped that the year I started ...". Doesn't
           | give me the impression that even the author believes it is
           | all their doing. Very easily someone could write the same
           | story from a differed perspective "we hired a guy to run the
           | cafe, but he was way too distracted to keep consistently at
           | it. First he ruffled some feathers with the board then he
           | mellowed out so we kept him around. He pooh-poohed artist who
           | was not as responsive in electronic communication as he would
           | have liked, but we told him softly that is not his decision
           | and to shut it. At the end he was only showing up
           | sporadically and then left to write or something." We only
           | have his world on it and even based on that his track record
           | is less than stelar.
        
             | jonnycomputer wrote:
             | Yes, this is the situation we are left in. I don't really
             | know of course (and presumably nor do you) whether he was a
             | good employee or made substantive improvements or whatever.
             | It would have helped if he was more specific and concrete
             | in his descriptions.
             | 
             | The biggest failing here is a failing of clear and
             | compelling writing.
        
               | krisoft wrote:
               | > I don't really know of course (and presumably nor do
               | you) whether he was a good employee or made substantive
               | improvements or whatever.
               | 
               | Yes, absolutely. I don't know anything about him outside
               | of this article. I assume he is a good employee, or they
               | were mostly happy with him (for the simple reason that
               | they kept employing him). Just wrote that part to
               | illustrate that the same facts from his own pen can be
               | also interpreted in a negative light.
               | 
               | > It would have helped if he was more specific and
               | concrete in his descriptions.
               | 
               | I totally agree with that.
        
           | atoav wrote:
           | On which timeframe tho? Many great artists did _not_ sell
           | well during their lifetime, Van Gogh being the most famous
           | example.
           | 
           | Was Van Gogh a great artist because at some point in the
           | future his works are among the most expensive ones ever sold
           | sold? Or was he a bad artist, that turned great after his
           | death when the market favored him more?
           | 
           | If it is the former, _every_ artist could potentially sell
           | well in the remaining time of human civilization -- how far
           | in the future do you draw the line?
           | 
           | If it is the latter then we get the paradoxical situation,
           | that the same work can be both great and bad depending on the
           | observers time reference. So the same painting is bad, until
           | someone "discovers" it and manages ro produce economic hype
           | around it.
           | 
           | As someone with a MA of art who has probably seen more
           | exhibitions than most people on this site (including the last
           | 5 Biennales and the last 3 Documentas) my guess is: great art
           | is great even before it is commercially successful.
           | 
           | Whether it then turns out to be economically successful as
           | well (and when) hinges on many different factors, like the
           | Zeitgeist, pure chance, where it was exhibited or next to
           | what it was exhibited, how the galerist treats the work, how
           | much the artist puts on the market, how the market feels at
           | the time when it is shown etc.
           | 
           | The "greatness" of the work is only a very small factor in
           | the economic success it has, some would even argue it doesn't
           | matter as much as one would think.
           | 
           | But all of that matters on how we define "great". If you are
           | a rich collector that sees art as an investment it is just
           | about the numbers, then great art is only art that you have
           | _and_ that sells for more than you bought it. You 'd define
           | it differently depending on who you are: artist, art
           | historian, galerist, lay person, crafts person, journalist,
           | copyright lawyer, restaurator, ..
        
         | fenomas wrote:
         | > in point 3, he says he can predict which exhibition will be
         | great based on how easy it is to work with the artist
         | 
         | I strongly assumed that bit was about him predicting whether
         | each exhibition would be "great" from the gallery's perspective
         | - in terms of attendance or revenue or whatever metrics they
         | used. It's not spelled out, but since the whole piece is about
         | him focusing on the business and ops side of things, that bit
         | probably was as well.
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | > He writes "What you see in the biographies of great artists,
         | great writers, great anything is that they are good at figuring
         | out where the vectors align." Which is just plainly and
         | absolutely not true
         | 
         | I take it the author means "great" as in "successful".
        
           | llamaimperative wrote:
           | It is not true in that case either, or at least "successful"
           | is still poorly defined.
           | 
           | It's defined implicitly in this blog as _commercially
           | successful within the timeframe I had to sell their art._
           | Which is a perfectly defensible definition, but should be
           | explicit so people know what argument they're hearing.
        
             | magicalhippo wrote:
             | > commercially successful within the timeframe I had to
             | sell their art
             | 
             | That's what I meant with successful. Not sure what other
             | variations there would be, though I'm not a native speaker.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | For example, to receive prestigious awards would also fit
               | under "successful," regardless of monetary components. To
               | be recognized after death as one of the Masters would be
               | successful.
        
               | magicalhippo wrote:
               | The author is talking about the artistry being aligned
               | with market forces in the paragraph preceding the quote.
               | 
               | I don't really see how either of those definitions fit in
               | that context.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | Sure, but now you're just circularly defining it back to
               | what was initially pointed out: this is implicitly a very
               | specific definition of greatness, ergo yeah, you replace
               | the word with "successful" and it's implicitly a very
               | specific definition of successful.
        
             | munificent wrote:
             | It was clear to me from the article. The very next section
             | is about how being economically sustainable is important if
             | your goal is to maximize the amount of art you can present
             | to a community.
        
         | ValentinA23 wrote:
         | https://www.zmescience.com/science/physicist-shows-that-to-b...
         | 
         | Albert-Laszlo Barabas, a physicist, created a network map that
         | can predict an artist's future success based on their early
         | network connections. His work outlines two key "laws of
         | success":
         | 
         | - Performance drives success, but when performance can't be
         | measured, networks drive success. This highlights the
         | importance of networks when objective measures of quality are
         | difficult to establish.
         | 
         | - Performance is bounded, but success is unbounded. This
         | indicates that small differences in quality can lead to large
         | disparities in success due to the amplifying power of social
         | networks
         | 
         | Barabasi's model can predict an artist's career success with
         | surprising accuracy based on the venues of their first five
         | exhibitions. This model underscores the importance of early
         | connections and the venues where an artist exhibits their work,
         | which can significantly influence their long-term success4.
        
           | jonnycomputer wrote:
           | This is great to think about. Glad I ran across this comment.
        
           | blitzar wrote:
           | I guess this is why a sucessful genius can tape a banana to a
           | wall while a run of the mill worker can only restore Notre
           | Dame to its original state.
        
             | llamaimperative wrote:
             | No that is more about money laundering
        
               | lancesells wrote:
               | It's more about people with a lot of money hoping to sell
               | it for a greater return, while maybe also having shit
               | taste in art. In five years it'll be at an auction and
               | sell to some other person with too much money in hopes of
               | making a profit on it later on.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | Nah, it has to do with money laundering, tax evasion, and
               | easy international money transmission. There are tons of
               | interesting tricks you can pull once you have your hands
               | on a small object "worth" hundreds of thousands or
               | millions of dollars whose very illiquid + inefficiently
               | priced sales also affects an entire market of similar
               | objects.
        
               | neaden wrote:
               | The guy who bought it, Justin Sun, ate it. So unless it's
               | going to get really meta (and stinky) he's not going to
               | resell it.
        
               | blitzar wrote:
               | That would be a piece of art.
        
               | lancesells wrote:
               | Net worth $1.6B. So eating a $6M banana is a PR stunt.
               | 
               | Edit: Also doesn't mean it can't be resold as that banana
               | gets replaced x number of days.
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | The thing being bought by him was not a specific physical
               | banana, so he can resell what was sold just fine if he
               | wants to.
        
               | niceice wrote:
               | How does that work exactly?
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | Have you ever tried to move $10MM between jurisdictions
               | before? It's much easier when you can put it in a box
               | that looks like, weighs as much as, and actually is a
               | piece of cloth inside of a box, and then open the box up
               | wherever you want it.
               | 
               | (To be clear, the banana piece _specifically_ is probably
               | a bad artwork to use for financial engineering purposes,
               | but for the art market as a whole these dynamics add a
               | lot to the prices near the top end)
        
               | trgn wrote:
               | that isn't money laundering though.
               | 
               | I wonder that too fwiw, what's the exact mechanism with
               | this banana NFT-purchase by which elicit money (from who
               | (?)) is now being laundered as legal income (of who (?)).
               | How does the process work?
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | let's buy that argument for discussion's sake, that
               | doesn't contradict with the notion that networking is
               | important.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | I wasn't trying to contradict that
        
               | Aunche wrote:
               | Whenever an absurdly priced work of art makes it to the
               | news, laypeople immediately jump to the explanation of
               | money laundering, but any artist, art purchaser, or even
               | money launderer would know that this is ridiculous. You'd
               | be an idiot to launder their money in the most publicized
               | auction in the year. If you wanted to launder money, it
               | would most likely be through low-profile private sales.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | I agree that any _individual piece_ is not guaranteed to
               | be laundering, but the market as a whole is definitely
               | pushed upwards by more factors than people 's desire for
               | historical artifacts or decoration.
               | 
               | In any case, in the true upper end of the market, most of
               | these auctions are publicized but the buyers are behind
               | many layers of indirection.
        
               | neaden wrote:
               | In this specific case we know who bought it Justin Sun.
               | He's a Hong Kong based cyrptocurrency investor who ate
               | it. So it seems like in this case it was more about
               | getting some press, and probably a bit of distraction
               | against some of the allegations against him.
        
               | orochimaaru wrote:
               | Nope he didn't eat it. He got a digital token with
               | instructions on how to tape his own banana to the wall.
               | 
               | Before someone thinks I'm not serious - I am. That was
               | out in the news today.
        
             | plagiarist wrote:
             | The world is pretty disappointing in that way.
             | 
             | All my life I have been thinking I should develop good
             | skills in my career. But actually I should have been
             | learning how to make connections and talk to people.
             | 
             | There's no chance of me selling a single banana for that
             | much. But I could be making a multiple what I do now.
        
               | cpach wrote:
               | Why not do both?
        
             | m0llusk wrote:
             | Workers are required to follow the orders they are given
             | which are typically specified such that it is the people
             | paying them that get to exercise aesthetic judgement. That
             | is why Notre Dame was restored to a modernized design that
             | is visibly different from its original state.
        
               | albumen wrote:
               | Interesting...the several articles I've read note how
               | closely it has remained to the original design. What
               | aspects are modernised?
        
             | zcw100 wrote:
             | Money laundering is probably what makes a banana taped to a
             | wall successful.
        
             | ValentinA23 wrote:
             | This is a reflexion I made to a friend yesterday: the
             | banana doesn't improve the state of art over Duchamp's
             | Fountain. The real artist, in this case, is the guy who
             | paid 6 millions to eat the banana !
        
               | blitzar wrote:
               | They are artists all the way down.
        
               | deadbabe wrote:
               | Now someone must eat the artist who ate the banana, for
               | several million dollars.
        
               | blitzar wrote:
               | An artist has to tape them to a wall first.
        
               | dghlsakjg wrote:
               | I'll do it. But not for less than $12mm
        
               | blitzar wrote:
               | I am an artist. I would do it for the sake of art (and
               | $10mil)
        
               | burkaman wrote:
               | The guy that bought it is not an artist, he was just
               | trying to distract from some good-old-fashioned
               | corruption: https://popular.info/p/a-chinese-national-
               | charged-with-fraud
               | 
               | Based on the coverage of his purchase it seems like he
               | succeeded.
        
           | trhway wrote:
           | sounds like startups founding and software engineers career
        
           | llamaimperative wrote:
           | > It turns out, however, that you can make it by starting
           | from the outside. It's not easy, but it can work. You have to
           | go around and show your art as much as possible to as many
           | people as possible.
           | 
           | I.e. some portion of "network success strategy" is actually
           | downstream of talent success.
        
           | therealcamino wrote:
           | It seems to me like a more valid way to describe that work is
           | that, you can predict an artist's long-term success based on
           | their early success.
           | 
           | The first five venues where an artist exhibits isn't wholly
           | based on their social networks, but also tells you how
           | excited the art world is about their work. Since attitudes
           | about the work or the artist are key factors in establishing
           | what their early network is, I don't see how you can conclude
           | that the work and the artist are irrelevant, but the network
           | is relevant.
        
           | niceice wrote:
           | Or is it that performance creates a network?
        
           | julianeon wrote:
           | Hold up. This is very intriguing.
           | 
           | When you say it can "predict an artist's career success", to
           | a 1st approximation, that means it can predict which artists'
           | work will sell for over 10x its current price in a dozen
           | years.
           | 
           | Is it really that easy to make money in the art market?
        
         | dfxm12 wrote:
         | I think the author's definition of "best artist" is "artist who
         | made my job easiest". I have no reason to distrust the author
         | about this, but, on the other hand, this information is simply
         | not useful.
        
         | westondeboer wrote:
         | I have worked for an artist for about 20 years. He releases a
         | print every week, I could not tell you which one is going to
         | sell well or not.
        
         | Aunche wrote:
         | > There were plenty of people who we now recognise as "great
         | artist" who absolutely could not figure out where the
         | "incentive vectors align". Thus they lived in abject poverty,
         | or needed to support themselves from something other than their
         | art.
         | 
         | I don't think this is particularly true anymore. Most of the
         | canonical artists of the past century were successful during
         | their lifetimes. The ones who weren't either died tragically
         | young (e.g. Basquiat), or didn't care for exposure much at all
         | (e.g. Hilma af Kint).
        
           | robenkleene wrote:
           | I agree with this. I'd be curious if you have any hypothesis
           | about why exactly that is? Personally, I can think of three
           | possible reasons but I'm not convinced by any of them:
           | 
           | 1. It's became harder to distinguish quality. Artist training
           | has been streamlined, so technical excellence (which is
           | easier to evaluate) isn't novel anymore. So that means
           | determining quality of art now depends on more difficult to
           | evaluate criteria.
           | 
           | 2. Art moves faster now, so it's harder to have an influence
           | on the art world (one of the ways an artist becomes famous)
           | posthumously, because by then the art world has probably
           | moved on from the state where the art would have impact.
           | 
           | 3. We're just better at discovering artists. E.g., low-
           | barrier to entry for digital distribution means it's easier
           | for artists to find an audience.
           | 
           | Any thoughts?
        
           | archagon wrote:
           | Perhaps they are "canonical" because they were successful.
           | Perhaps the canon will look a lot different a century from
           | now when the less commercially successful, obscure greats are
           | finally dusted off.
        
       | thih9 wrote:
       | > If we want to make the world a better place, we can't just
       | think about the lofty stuff: we have to get our hands dirty and
       | make sure the economic engine works.
       | 
       | This seems a very narrow if not conformist view of art.
       | 
       | Artists doing graffiti, participating in hobby groups, state
       | funded projects, discovered by later generations, etc - they
       | don't care about making viewers feel good about funding; and yet
       | their art can very much make the world a better place.
        
         | trosi wrote:
         | It is perhaps a narrow view, but not an incorrect one.
         | 
         | You mention state funded projects, but the funding has to come
         | from somewhere else. What the author is saying is this: it
         | takes money to run a gallery (or a museum, for that matter),
         | therefore even if it is not the primary objective, we should
         | strive to keep the money flowing so that we can make have
         | better galleries/museums.
        
           | thih9 wrote:
           | Actually the money doesn't have to come from anywhere, that's
           | my point. If we cut all state funding - I'm sure artists
           | would continue making art, as they did for millenia. We
           | encourage art with state funding because we consider it
           | beneficial to the society[1].
           | 
           | The "keep the money flowing" approach distracts from making
           | art and leads to making art that sells well. Do we really
           | want that to dominate galleries/museums?
           | 
           | [1]: "American taxpayers concur, with 55% supporting
           | increasing federal investment in the arts, 57% supporting
           | state government funding for the arts and 58% supporting
           | local government funding for the arts"
           | https://www.delawareartsalliance.org/government-funding-
           | arts...
        
           | Tade0 wrote:
           | The narrowness makes it incorrect.
           | 
           | Galleries are necessarily behind the curve because they're
           | businesses and have to stay afloat. You typically don't go to
           | a gallery to see something new, but to see the works of an
           | already established artist.
           | 
           | Meanwhile interesting, innovative art happens outside of
           | galleries, but you have to look for it, as there's an
           | oversupply of aspiring artists.
           | 
           | Bottom line is you can't base the whole art scene on the
           | opinions of art galleries, as they play it safe and art is
           | strictly about the opposite.
        
       | quantum_mcts wrote:
       | 0. There's money laundering.
        
       | bradley13 wrote:
       | I went into this article with a lot of skepticism, but the author
       | has some excellent points. Here's one, as an example.
       | 
       | On dealing with people (in his case, artists): "if...someone
       | isn't measuring up, I have no idea how to convince them to do so.
       | So I look for people [who do]." I.e., don't waste your time on
       | people who are "demanding or confused or slow at answering their
       | email".
       | 
       | Lots of other interesting points!
        
       | ideasphere wrote:
       | How many deep insights can you really gain on an entire industry
       | by working in it for 2 years? And starting off in a separate
       | industry which just happens to be located within the other?
        
       | KaiserPro wrote:
       | Another, perhaps less triumphant account of the art world is
       | here: https://profilebooks.com/work/all-that-glitters/ which for
       | me is a very interesting read. If reading isn't your thing then
       | it has a good audio book, but also this might be of interest
       | https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001nwhs
        
       | xg15 wrote:
       | > _I am very much in that direction myself; I found it, for
       | example, almost shameful to turn on paid subscriptions on my
       | blog._
       | 
       | Almost.
        
       | zenogantner wrote:
       | People here in the comments seem to focus on whether it is
       | possible to predict an artist's success based on secondary
       | "civic" virtues, and criticize the author for having subjective
       | criteria for what "success" means. I'd argue that independently
       | of how you measure success, all other things being equal, having
       | diligence and other civic virtues will get you further, on
       | average.
       | 
       | That said, the most interesting lessons are in the first and
       | sixth (the 2nd 6th, the actual 6th) item: How to do a better/more
       | widely scoped job than what you got hired for (by understanding
       | how interests, incentives and responsibilities align in an org)
       | and the fact that in most places, most people are not serious
       | (meaning they tend to not go deeper, look at the big picture,
       | etc.).
        
         | riazrizvi wrote:
         | I think the point is more that there are indicators that a
         | person is in conflict with their own mission. Struggles to
         | respond, complains, focuses on the immaterial. I think OP is
         | completely right. When a person is aligned, they get out of
         | their own way, this people are easy to differentiate. One
         | produces mediocre work, the other produces great stuff. I also
         | agree it's within the power of the individual to be either.
        
           | thih9 wrote:
           | I like this view. Still, this seems a way of reasoning about
           | that artist's success at that particular gallery - perhaps
           | the artist is busy with art projects that are better aligned
           | with them.
        
             | riazrizvi wrote:
             | Quite likely, though I think we are talking about different
             | things. OP and I are talking to shared alignment, where
             | they came together to sell art for mutual benefit and how
             | to spot good partners to work with. Sure if a partner isn't
             | good for you, they might have other places where they work
             | well, but I think that's out of scope to the article IMO.
        
       | greenie_beans wrote:
       | artists aren't like startup founders. let's stop using that
       | archetype to describe everything.
        
       | ParadisoShlee wrote:
       | Linkedin is leaking?
        
         | jonnycomputer wrote:
         | ?
        
           | ParadisoShlee wrote:
           | Linkedin is infamous for "what doing something unrelated
           | taught me about B2B sales" or similar kinds of slop.
        
       | broabprobe wrote:
       | Curious they say in the first paragraph, "didn't speak the
       | language" but then seemingly very quickly started attending board
       | meetings and taking notes? With no further mention of learning
       | Danish. Seems like a notable achievement!
        
         | Ylpertnodi wrote:
         | ...they probably spoke in English for them at board level. Good
         | for his benefit, also very good for theirs, too.
         | 
         | *where i am, any engineer (of any type) that can't speak
         | English, is classed as an idiot (and probably benefitted from
         | nepotistic [mal-] practices).
        
       | tmilard wrote:
       | This essai reminds me of someone a few years back telling me that
       | Artists and Startups where very similar. - "What ?" I replied
       | confused. - "Yes ! We work for nothing, crafting a unique skills
       | and hoping to find Product Market Fit. Of either an original
       | Software or an special Sculpture. The economic is for both an
       | economic of big incertinity.
       | 
       | Galleries bet on a few Artists among many just like YCombinator
       | bets on a few startups every years hoping for the best.
        
       | wslh wrote:
       | I grew up immersed in the art world--my father is an artist, and
       | my sister is a curator working on exhibitions for institutions
       | like MoMA and the Reina Sofia Museum, and linked to a known dead
       | artist. Based on my lifelong experience in this environment, here
       | are my thoughts:
       | 
       | Art as a Business: Selling art is predominantly a business, and,
       | frankly, quality often doesn't play the leading role. Market
       | dynamics, branding, and influence have a much stronger impact on
       | an artist's commercial success. Many buyers lack a refined taste
       | for art but are guided by curators, galleries, or social trends
       | to invest in one artist over another. This is particularly true
       | outside the realm of blue-chip artists like Picasso, van Gogh, or
       | Bacon, where established market signals guide decisions.
       | 
       | Theory and Practice: while I love the theoretical discussions
       | around art (e.g. Walter Benjamin) I find these ideas largely
       | irrelevant to the business side of the art market. Theory has its
       | place in academia and criticism, but it often feels disconnected
       | from the pragmatic realities of selling and promoting art.
       | 
       | If you're interested in understanding how the art world operates,
       | I highly recommend visiting Art Basel or similar art fairs. These
       | events showcase the intersection of commerce, curation, and
       | culture, providing a fascinating snapshot of the art market's
       | priorities and trends. I personally did my own art intervention
       | with technology and received known artists who wanted to
       | participated in the experiment and beyond the project originality
       | it would not work in other contexts without some validation
       | (being in a space in Wynwood [1]).
       | 
       | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wynwood
        
       | WaitWaitWha wrote:
       | I think the biggest win for this job was not the six points
       | identified, but the author gained their boss's trust; got project
       | alignment to the organization's mission, and earned more
       | autonomy.
       | 
       | In essence the task-oriented leading was switched to area-of-
       | responsibility leading. That is, instead of giving a list of
       | tasks to complete by the author, an AoR was given, and all tasks
       | initially verified, then allowed to move forward as the author
       | saw it fit. It is task-oriented vs. AoR-Oriented leadership.
       | 
       | Basically, in large part this worked because of the job context
       | and the leadership of the boss.
        
       | iamleppert wrote:
       | How dare someone not respond to the email of a gallery coffee
       | director within the hour! Obviously that makes them a bad artist.
       | I like how the OP has anointed himself as the judge of other's
       | work but instead of actually judging the work itself based on its
       | own merits (which he can't be bothered to do) he instead relies
       | on personal attacks and poor measurements like how fast someone
       | responds to an email from him.
       | 
       | Maybe these artists were put out by the odd relationship of
       | corresponding with the guy who runs the coffee stand for their
       | show? He strikes me as the kind of person who needs to be
       | involved in everything, but doesn't really care about anything.
       | Huge ego and constantly judging everyone around him. He would
       | make an excellent manager in corporate america.
        
       | JoeAltmaier wrote:
       | He set them up for success, and then left. With no mention of
       | choosing a successor! Without that, they will fall back into bad
       | decisions in months and blow through their 'war chest' the first
       | year.
       | 
       | My wife reorganized the after-school program for our elementary
       | school, got it on an upward trajectory, got grants and some money
       | in the bank to pay for exceptional bills. And left, without
       | choosing a successor.
       | 
       | Of course, the staff blew through the savings instantly, because
       | they didn't know the budget or the purpose of having some margin
       | for safety. Had to raise rates and reduce hours and all the bad
       | things, just to keep going. All the time thinking it wasn't their
       | fault, just the bad old world that didn't want to give them money
       | for free to blow on their whims.
        
       | jheriko wrote:
       | this is kind of mindblowing... just... WAT?!?!
       | 
       | getting through that first section makes me want to take nothing
       | this guy says seriously. the insanity of it...
        
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