[HN Gopher] Honeycrisp apples went from marvel to mediocre
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       Honeycrisp apples went from marvel to mediocre
        
       Author : haunter
       Score  : 324 points
       Date   : 2024-11-30 16:44 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.seriouseats.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.seriouseats.com)
        
       | forthwall wrote:
       | I feel like this has happened to most apples, even most fruit,
       | forcing fruit to become all-year fruit in general has made those
       | fruits worse off in the long term in terms of quality due to the
       | necessity to make them long lasting. I used to personally dislike
       | all apples until I started getting them from farmers markets that
       | only sold them seasonally as opposed to supermarkets or costco,
       | suddenly they started to taste like something and not just water.
        
         | ericjmorey wrote:
         | Yup. Incentive to use brand recognition for a lower quality,
         | cheaper to produce in more volume substitution is too strong
         | for a large business to ignore.
        
           | s1artibartfast wrote:
           | The market is not kind to consumers that put their faith in
           | "brands" without owners.
           | 
           | I put brand in quotes because anyone can produce and sell
           | honeycrisp apples. It is not trademarked.
           | 
           | Buying one is like buying a hammer on amazon and assuming it
           | will have the quality of different hammer you used.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | A significant number of the "farmers" at farmer's markets
         | arent. Some even buy thier stock from costco and the like. A
         | commercially productive farmer does not have the time to spend
         | a day selling a few apples in the city center. The safer bet is
         | to drive out to roadside stands at the actual farms, then of
         | course then you can only buy the one or two products currently
         | being harvested at that paticular farm. The upside is that, as
         | you are driving rather than walking, you can load up on 50+lbs
         | of corn for friends and family without worry.
        
           | torstenvl wrote:
           | When I load up on 50+lbs of corn, it isn't for my friends and
           | family to eat.
           | 
           | At least not directly.
        
           | OptionOfT wrote:
           | In California certified farmers markets are not allowed to
           | re-sell produce.
           | 
           | Not sure if it's enforced. And it's hard to look up non-
           | existing laws in other states. When I don't find something I
           | assume I'm not searching correctly, but in this case there
           | might just not be a law to find.
        
         | smolder wrote:
         | I love garden grown tomatoes but am frequently disappointed by
         | the flavorless, watery, mushy ones that show up in my
         | sandwiches and salads when I eat out. Seasonality is a factor,
         | maybe.
        
           | OptionOfT wrote:
           | The tomatoes sold in store are bred for ticker skin to allow
           | for mechanical picking, but that came at the cost of taste.
           | 
           | https://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/news/how-mechanical-
           | to...
        
             | smolder wrote:
             | Interesting! I specifically remember wondering "why is the
             | skin so tough on this?" before, when trying to take a bite
             | of a sandwich and ending up with a whole slice of tomato
             | pulling out.
        
           | bobbylarrybobby wrote:
           | It's not just seasonality per se -- it's that produce is
           | simply not bred to taste good anymore. It's designed to be
           | hardy enough to ship, growable all year round, free of
           | blemishes, but not to actually taste good.
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | I'm not an organic/"local" produce snob, but garden tomatoes
           | are tough to beat for flavor. Campari have the best flavor
           | I've found from grocery stores.
        
         | jajko wrote:
         | People rave about bio produce. Ie we keep buying only bio
         | carrots, they are not much more expensive than regular ones. I
         | like the taste.
         | 
         | But when I come home and taste some carrots my parents grow in
         | their garden, oh my god - this is extreme premium in taste
         | world. I understand its a different type, not created for
         | maximal yield as quickly as possible. And so it goes with
         | everything.
         | 
         | If you like various berries you can buy in stores, just don't
         | ever taste wild ones in the forest, it will ruin them for you.
        
         | nyclounge wrote:
         | >I feel like this has happened to most apples, even most fruit,
         | forcing fruit to become all-year fruit in general has made
         | those fruits worse off in the long term in terms of quality due
         | to the necessity to make them long lasting.
         | 
         | Feel like the same can be said about just all industrial
         | revolution related inventions. The consumer culture caters to
         | the wimp of convenience instead of the whole ecosystem.
        
       | malfist wrote:
       | Maybe I missed it in that massive article, but did they ever
       | actually come to a conclusion why the apples taste worse today?
       | Except maybe long term storage?
       | 
       | It was a really long article about the history of the apple and
       | difficult growing it, but I didn't see the title answered
       | anywhere. It ended taking about surplus and storage requirements.
        
         | sigilis wrote:
         | That was it, yes. Long term storage under refrigeration is
         | harming the quality of the apples at market in the interest of
         | making the apple available year round.
         | 
         | The actionable information is in the beginning: honey crisp
         | apples are not worth it anymore buy whatever instead. For me
         | this keeps it from being insufferable. The stuff in the middle
         | demonstrates what the conditions were like before it went mass
         | market, which supports the conclusion that something changed
         | and that it was likely related to the logistics of growing and
         | distributing the apple.
         | 
         | If you don't like reading these articles, you could try using
         | an LLM to extract a summary before choosing to dive in. I'm
         | sure there are browser extensions for that.
        
           | rwiggins wrote:
           | Yeah, having the read the article, my conclusion was that you
           | should avoid honeycrisps from like February through ~August.
           | i.e. only buy them when they're vaguely in season, or not too
           | long afterward.
           | 
           | Anecdotally, I had some pretty delicious honeycrisps last
           | night (in WA).
        
             | Spooky23 wrote:
             | You also need to be aware of how the grocer stocks.
             | 
             | As an example, during the peak of peach season in the
             | region, a South Carolina Sam's Club had pallets of
             | California peaches!
        
         | s1artibartfast wrote:
         | Storage is the answer they proposed. I didn't realize that
         | apples could be stored for up to a year.
        
         | mantas wrote:
         | Because nowadays many fruits and veggies are bread for
         | storability and transportability. Then sugariness. Taste is an
         | afterthought. Let alone smell.
         | 
         | I got a tiny lot and started growing some berries, fruits and
         | veggies. There's a masive selection for pretty much any given
         | species. Do you want eat-off-the-plant or make a jam? Do you
         | prefer more or less sugary taste? How much are you willing to
         | maintain and defend them? If you're looking for analysis
         | paralysis, gardening is the way to go.
        
           | malfist wrote:
           | Apples aren't like other fruit, they're essentially clones.
           | If you breed an apple for something, your making a new apple
        
             | mantas wrote:
             | Yes. But the general tendency in Apple breeding is the
             | same. Transportability and storability above all. With then
             | getting more sugary, save granny smith.
             | 
             | Personally I'm after historical apples. I've two local
             | classics. One breed is from 19th century, the other is
             | probably older, but I don't buy claims it's coming from
             | medieval era. Taste is nice and they survive pretty well
             | with very little upkeep with no modern chemistry.
             | 
             | I also just planted few less-known modern colon style
             | breeds. Fingers crossed few years later it will pay off.
        
         | vitehozonage wrote:
         | Thanks for asking, i also read some of it and got frustrated by
         | the article so came looking for the answer
        
       | guestbest wrote:
       | I've been buying the organic apples for the last year and for
       | some reason they seem to have the flavor that is missing in the
       | less expensive brands
        
         | jader201 wrote:
         | I've tried organic on occasion, and never felt they were any
         | better (often not as good).
         | 
         | Obviously way too many variables, but anecdotally, I haven't
         | been that impressed with organic apples.
        
           | mantas wrote:
           | Yes. Depends if it's organic for the sake of organic label.
           | Local farmer market is always a better bet.
        
         | mistercheph wrote:
         | Organic labeling is one of the largest and most disastrous
         | failures of USDA to protect small farmers.
         | 
         | Kroger's simple truth, sunkist's line of organic citruses they
         | sell in "whole foods", etc.
         | 
         | the label means nothing, and when you see it in a big name
         | grocery store it's probably a bad thing
        
       | dccoolgai wrote:
       | Enshittification but for fruit
        
         | cute_boi wrote:
         | I believe slowly everything is going to "Enshittification"
         | path.
        
       | throwawaycities wrote:
       | I never particularly liked Honeycrisp apples and never understood
       | the hype, but seeing this #1 on HN I feel like one of the cool
       | kids ahead of the curve on a niche topic. Jokes aside about 5
       | years ago I began reading about the industry side of all these
       | new trendy apple varieties, much of it is industry driven and
       | interesting for those into that sort of thing.
       | 
       | The best in my opinion is Fuji followed closely by Gala.
        
         | lern_too_spel wrote:
         | I have never eaten a bad Fuji. They're inexpensive too, usually
         | 1/2 to 1/3 the price of these crapshoot Johnnies-come-lately.
        
           | throwawaycities wrote:
           | That's my experience as well, at least at my local store I
           | can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a mealy
           | Fuji over many years.
           | 
           | Also laughing because I perform the same apple analysis -
           | this new variety looks good and admittedly the names are
           | pretty effective marketing (honeycrisp, cosmic, etc...), but
           | they tend to be comparatively expensive and after being let
           | down some many times I just grab the Fuji
        
         | jader201 wrote:
         | Hard disagree.
         | 
         | I used to love Galas but ultimately realized about 50% of the
         | time they were mealy.
         | 
         | Since swapping to Honeycrisp, I've yet to have a mealy one.
         | Maybe occasionally (about 1 out of 20-30) there's one that has
         | a hint of mealiness, but far from what half of the Galas were.
         | 
         | I do agree that not all of them are super sweet/flavorful, but
         | still most of them are, and I'd take a less sweet but still
         | crisp apple any day over a sweet but mealy one.
         | 
         | I never tried Fuji much, but don't remember them being anything
         | special. This site [1] (shared at least once on HN) has Fuji
         | even below Gala.
         | 
         | [1] https://applerankings.com/
        
           | limit499karma wrote:
           | Something really off imho with a food writer that manages to
           | insert foul matter vulgarity into food reviews. It's moved
           | beyond cute into the 'wonder what ails this guy' territory.
        
             | dahart wrote:
             | Meh, he's a comedian, not a food writer. Some of the
             | taglines are maybe over the line, but a lot of them are
             | funny, and all of them are in jest.
        
           | lern_too_spel wrote:
           | That site is a single person's opinion. He acknowledges that
           | Fuji is many (most?) people's favorite variety among people
           | who have a favorite variety but then rates it poorly to be
           | controversial. The comment section of his review shows that
           | his clickbait strategy was successful.
        
           | throwawaycities wrote:
           | Way I'd explain it as Fuji and Gala are similar (on the sweet
           | side). I agree with you on inconsistency of the Gala, which
           | is why I have it below Fuji, and Fuji's being consistently
           | crisp.
           | 
           | I'm firmly in your camp, I don't care for mealy apples - I
           | hear those people exist but don't think I know any.
        
         | airstrike wrote:
         | I will go out of my way to avoid Fuji and Gala, FWIW. I used to
         | like Honeyscrisp but they have been disappointing lately
         | indeed. Didn't know this was a thing, but my takeaway is I
         | should be on the lookout for weirdly named ones next time I'm
         | shopping.
        
       | zikduruqe wrote:
       | If you ever eat Cosmic Crisps, you'll throw rocks at a
       | Honeycrisp.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
       | 
       | I think there is a newer cultivar that should be superseding the
       | Cosmic Crisp here soon.
       | 
       | Edit - the Kudos Apple. https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-
       | events/talking-apples-u-m-0
        
         | JDEW wrote:
         | Agreed, the experience the author describes with a Honeycrisp
         | at the beginning of the article is something I recently had
         | with a Cosmic. Let's hope it lasts.
        
         | angry_moose wrote:
         | I had a few Cosmic Crisps during the overhyped launch and was
         | not that impressed. It was just a pretty-OK apple.
         | 
         | Maybe it was a similar issue - off-season and stored too long,
         | but I haven't seen any around here in years (midwest).
        
           | silisili wrote:
           | Same. People kept telling me it was a Pink Lady with a
           | honeycrisp texture. I tried it a few times, it was neither.
           | Not terrible or anything, but not the holy grail it was made
           | out to be.
        
           | mastercheif wrote:
           | The Cosmic Crisp was breed to be a "hardier" version of the
           | Honeycrisp, specifically for growing in Washington[1].
           | 
           | I encourage everyone to check out https://applerankings.com,
           | I would describe it as Pitchfork for apple breeds.
           | 
           | Here's their review of the Cosmic Crisp:
           | https://applerankings.com/cosmic-crisp-apple-review/
           | 
           | Their top ranked apple is the SweeTango, and I agree with
           | their assessment: https://applerankings.com/sweetango-apple-
           | review/
           | 
           | Full ranking list: https://applerankings.com/pick-an-apple/
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
        
             | smolder wrote:
             | I was totally confused by the description of the Opal apple
             | as "A tasty unwiped anus" until I clicked and saw what they
             | look like.
        
             | exmadscientist wrote:
             | I think it's less about strict hardiness and more about
             | suitability for mass growing in Washington. The Honey crisp
             | has declined because it's getting grown in places it
             | doesn't really do well. The Cosmic Crisp is bred for those
             | very places.
             | 
             | So it may not be as good at peak (or it might, here in WA
             | the peak of the Cosmic Crisp can be pretty high indeed) but
             | it should stay strong over the years.
        
           | djur wrote:
           | I was looking forward to it and was disappointed. The skin is
           | a little too thick for my taste, too.
        
         | itake wrote:
         | WA State University (creator of the cosmic crisp) has a new
         | apple, that has yet to be named:
         | 
         | https://www.opb.org/article/2024/08/24/wa-64-apple-naming-ws...
        
           | sitkack wrote:
           | Neat!
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
           | 
           | https://treefruit.wsu.edu/web-article/apple-breeding-
           | program...
        
         | binarysneaker wrote:
         | I bought 6 varieties of apples from the store and taste tested
         | them with my family. Cosmic crisp was the clear favourite.
        
         | hombre_fatal wrote:
         | I buy Cosmic Crisp when the Envy apples are too expensive, but
         | they are slightly worse Envy apples. Everyone needs to try a
         | good Envy.
         | 
         | Crisp and sweet.
        
           | notatoad wrote:
           | i've had mixed results with envy. when they're good, they're
           | _really_ good, but sometimes they are lacking flavour or a
           | bit soft.
           | 
           | the magic of honeycrisp is that they're always about the same
        
           | linsomniac wrote:
           | Same here, Envy is my main apple (I typically eat 2 apples a
           | day, one each for morning and afternoon snack). ~80% of the
           | time Envy apples blow my socks off, Maybe 2% of the time
           | they're just ok. I'll get a SweeTango or Cosmic Crisp if Envy
           | are not available, but I've just never had one that I thought
           | was better than Envy.
           | 
           | I went through a big Honeycrisp phase and really enjoy them,
           | but I have thin enamel on my teeth and frequent eating of
           | uncooked Honeycrisp leads me to a lot of tooth pain, they're
           | just a little too tart. They are my go-to baking apple
           | though.
        
         | crystaln wrote:
         | From the sound of it, they lowered our standards for the
         | Honeycrisp and made way for an inferior but more robust apple
         | that's better than the lowered standards. While it's likely
         | they did this unintentionally it seems like the Cosmic Crisp is
         | not as well-liked as the early Honeycrisp.
        
           | darepublic wrote:
           | This happens with consumer goods generally
        
         | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
         | Meh. Cosmic crisp is just hyped up marketing. It was obvious in
         | how heavily they advertised. It's not actually better. Honey
         | crisp remains the sweetest and tastiest.
        
           | wat10000 wrote:
           | That must be on media I don't use, as I didn't even know they
           | advertised. I independently settled on cosmic crisp (and the
           | nearly identical crimson crisp) as my standard.
           | 
           | I never did like honeycrisp all that much, though. It's a
           | little too sweet and something about the flavor is just a
           | little bit wrong. It's hard to describe but it's like they
           | tried a little too hard to make the ideal apple. It's alright
           | and I'd be happy to eat one but I don't buy them.
        
           | poulsbohemian wrote:
           | But they are consistent and reliable, for now. I know if I go
           | to the store and I've got the option of 6 different types of
           | apples (I live in WA, we've got apple choices...) I know
           | cosmic crips (grown barely an hour drive from where I live)
           | will be consistent in texture and flavor.
        
         | pton_xd wrote:
         | My own experience is that Honeycrisp is the most consistently
         | sweet and crisp apple you can buy (contrary to the claims made
         | in TFA -- maybe it's a regional thing?). Cosmic Crisp is decent
         | but I'm not a fan of the flavor.
        
           | Spivak wrote:
           | It's likely that the best apple will be whatever of the
           | "honeycrisp-like" varieties you can acquire on with the
           | shortest time between tree and your mouth.
        
         | cipheredStones wrote:
         | > The Cosmic Crisp is a cross between Honeycrisp and Enterprise
         | apples.
         | 
         | So it's enterprise-ready. But is it webscale?
        
           | bigstrat2003 wrote:
           | If Cosmic Crisp supports sharding I will buy it.
        
             | otteromkram wrote:
             | Eat enough Cosmic Crisps and you will definitely be
             | sharding.
        
         | delecti wrote:
         | I've tried both, and prefer Honeycrisp. I found Cosmic too
         | tart.
        
         | stephencoyner wrote:
         | Cosmic crisps have been so incredibly good this year in the
         | Seattle area.
         | 
         | They also have the amazing attribute of browning very slowly -
         | you can cut one and leave it out all day it will hardly change
         | color.
        
       | mkoubaa wrote:
       | How do we make local apples a bigger thing again
        
         | Spooky23 wrote:
         | Change policy to make smaller farm operations a viable
         | business, and make it more difficult to build exurban homes and
         | retail.
        
         | mantas wrote:
         | The problem is people want same variety any day of the year.
         | Stocking local apples as they come is a PITA for big
         | supermarket chains. And most people don't care enough to go to
         | farmer's markets or local specialty shops. Let alone that
         | usually they ain't open on saturady 22:00 when some people find
         | time to go shopping.
        
         | mythrwy wrote:
         | Plant an apple tree
        
           | qup wrote:
           | Apples are tough to grow in my region, which is formerly
           | known for it.
           | 
           | There's the Cedar-apple rust issue, bug issues, and raccoon
           | issues.
           | 
           | I planted figs.
        
         | lucidguppy wrote:
         | support pick your own orchards
        
       | bastian wrote:
       | This is true for most fruits and vegetables and it's the cost of
       | having everything available at any time and for less money.
        
         | Larrikin wrote:
         | Which vegetables taste noticeabley worse? Whenever I travel
         | abroad I try to eat as much fruit as possible because of how
         | terrible nearly all of it is in the US. Melons and mangoes are
         | basically a totally different fruit. My cousin from Kenya
         | refuses to even try his favorite fruit in the US. But
         | vegetables, especially after cooking, seem ok. Only thing I can
         | think of are maybe out of season fresh tomatoes.
        
           | Spooky23 wrote:
           | Basically anything engineered to grow in California, Chile
           | and Arizona. They are optimized for shipment.
           | 
           | Some tomatoes are grown in hothouses now and are ok. My son
           | gobbles them up and in the winter lots of them are from
           | Western NY and Ontario.
           | 
           | Onions are definitely pushed to have higher sugar content
           | now. Also greens that I source from local farms seasonally
           | usually have better flavor.
        
           | jonah wrote:
           | Tomatoes, peppers, sweet corn, carrots, lettuce, etc. Lots of
           | produce is bred for large-scale growing and shipping
           | stability.
        
             | Spivak wrote:
             | God grocery store jalapenos are such a disappointment.
             | They're water flavored.
        
       | mjamesaustin wrote:
       | This is the same story for every new variety of apple. It becomes
       | popular because of its positive characteristics (sweetness,
       | tanginess, juicyness, crispness), but then slowly over time it
       | gets cultivated for mass market appeal (uniform color, shape,
       | shelf life) and the variety loses what made it good.
       | 
       | The best apple variety is generally the new one. The market is
       | strewn with the discarded remains of formerly good apples like
       | Fuji and Gala.
        
         | mikepurvis wrote:
         | My preferred apple is Mutsu, available from a few growers in
         | the late season at my southern Ontario farmers market.
         | According to Wikipedia it's been around since 1949, but perhaps
         | it simply never got popular enough to face these pressures--
         | either way, I find it consistently to be in the right place for
         | me as far as a balance of sweet, tangy, and crispy.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutsu_(apple)
        
           | thomk wrote:
           | Any idea where those could be located on the us side of the
           | border in Detroit?
        
             | fn-mote wrote:
             | Farmer's market. Grocery store that isn't a big chain.
             | They're here.
        
             | mikepurvis wrote:
             | Given that it's a Japanese cultivar, I assume they're all
             | over the place, you just have find a market where someone
             | growing them has them for sale.
        
             | Jgrubb wrote:
             | Aka "crispin" if that helps. Every apple farmer around here
             | in NW NJ grows them, never seen them in a store. Also my
             | favorite.
        
           | justinfrankel wrote:
           | +1 here -- Mutsu are fantastic, readily available at NYC
           | greenmarkets in the fall and into the winter, though there
           | are pretty large differences in flavor and texture between
           | various orchards too. Samascot is my fav.
        
         | cmiller1 wrote:
         | Or the old one, find a local orchard that sells heirloom
         | apples! Get some Cox's Orange Pippin or some Northern Spy or
         | some Ashmead's Kernel.
        
           | jessekv wrote:
           | I second the cox's. This harvest I bought several of each
           | variety in the shop and cox's was my favorite by a mile.
        
             | notanote wrote:
             | Same here.
             | 
             | I can imagine growers don't like them as much though,
             | despite the lack of patents and trademarks. In Europe they
             | were abundant and amazing quality last year, lasting into
             | February. This harvest their flavour wasn't there, many
             | were mealy, and they were unavailable within a month. Their
             | worst year as far as I can remember.
        
             | quercusa wrote:
             | Be on the lookout for Esopus Spitzenburg (maybe only in the
             | US). It's a really tasty apple.
        
             | pvaldes wrote:
             | Cox is a very good apple that is infamously prone to pick
             | every apple disease known. Golden Delicious has the same
             | problem, good flavor, disappointing as tree without using
             | chemicals.
             | 
             | Rubinette is a medium sized yellow apple, streaked in
             | reddish brown. Not particularly eye-catching and also prone
             | to fungal diseases. But Rubinette has a secret, is a
             | seedling of Cox x Golden delicious, and its flavor is
             | fantastic.
             | 
             | Modern apples with not so sophisticated flavor but better
             | resistance can be much more satisfactory.
        
           | jghn wrote:
           | I found the Westfield Seek-No-Further [1] this year and it's
           | become my new favorite.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.scottfarmvermont.com/westfield-seeknofurther
        
           | eszed wrote:
           | Cox's Orange Pippin is a good baking apple, as well. Holds
           | its shape, and goes all custardy, rather than dissolving into
           | mush.
           | 
           | It's not as good as a Bramley. Does anyone in the US grow
           | those commercially? Why not?
        
         | grogenaut wrote:
         | This is a thing I love about living in WA, I get the apples a
         | few years before everyone else. Lets me send them to friends
         | across the US before they hit their supermarkets.
         | 
         | And yes really the interesting thing is they're different and
         | new. Tho I do really like cosmics. Especially if you dry them
         | in a food dehydrator and then powder them into whipped cream.
         | 
         | Same deal with cherries.
        
           | binarymax wrote:
           | Same with Western NY - proximity to Cornell's apple research
           | and lots of orchards is really great. If you're an apple
           | fanatic WA and WNY are the places to be.
        
         | ranger207 wrote:
         | I wonder what the incentives are that make mass market
         | qualities more attractive to growers than what consumers want.
         | Like, I can imagine a sorta-demand curve with "sweetness etc"
         | to "uniform color etc" along the x axis and "clearing price" or
         | something on the y axis, and I really wonder if the most
         | efficient price is really so far to the mass market appeal side
         | of the curve. Or to put it another way, why can't they just
         | grow things people want?
        
           | bradleyjg wrote:
           | What people want when you sit them down and have them try
           | apples side by side is different from what they want when
           | they are in a supermarket, tired from working all day, and
           | starring out at a sea of apples and not quite remembering
           | which one it was they liked.
        
           | ip26 wrote:
           | The clearing price probably actually rises with improved
           | color and shape, and the overhead declines with greater shelf
           | stability. It's not until years later that consumers slowly
           | realize the texture and taste have gone downhill (as result
           | of these developments) that clearing price begins to decline.
           | So the market has a lag in response; it resembles a high
           | value brand being sucked dry.
        
           | djur wrote:
           | What people want, judging by their market behavior, is
           | reliability. A lot of the best-tasting apples are
           | inconsistent in quality, ship or store poorly, or have a
           | short growing season. I love eating fresh heirloom apples,
           | but Honeycrisps are 10% great, 80% good, and 10%
           | disappointing, which I prefer to 30% good, 30% disappointing,
           | and 40% unavailable.
        
             | shermantanktop wrote:
             | The idea of a year-round fruit crop is a modern supermarket
             | creation. Most food is seasonal. If a consumer are unaware
             | of its seasonality, that's because someone is working hard
             | to hide that fact.
             | 
             | I try to enjoy asparagus when it is in season, new potatoes
             | when they are in season, etc. Just because some crops are
             | bred for months and months of storage doesn't mean they
             | actually taste great.
        
               | maxerickson wrote:
               | Out season asparagus is coming on a truck from a region
               | with a different season or plane from South America, not
               | from a shelf.
        
               | shermantanktop wrote:
               | No, of course it is not from cold storage; instead the
               | produce is flying around the world so that you can have
               | them whenever you want.
               | 
               | Cold storage, jets, and long-haul trucking are
               | particularly bad for some types of produce, not so bad
               | for others.
               | 
               | Anyway, I'm not fighting the modern world, I like having
               | tomatoes in January. But this article and discussion is
               | about how you can have good apples, or you can have year-
               | round apples at scale, but you can't have both. And a lot
               | of that comes down to the supermarket training consumers
               | to expect the same produce every week.
        
         | briankelly wrote:
         | Enshitification. I've been buying honeycrisp for a while and
         | noticed more mushiness and flat flavor recently but I didn't
         | realize there was a whole apple-buying meta to keep up with if
         | you don't want to buy garbage fruit.
         | 
         | Edit: All the honeycrisp in my area right now are oversized.
         | I'm guessing because of a supplier change due to the season
         | change?
        
           | pvaldes wrote:
           | Oversized and without flavor? Watson, I think that we have
           | another case of assassination by Giberellins here.
        
       | Modified3019 wrote:
       | Basically, they are being stored too long, because Honeycrisp
       | season is only in September, and the apple industry in Washington
       | state is trying to provide them year round.
       | 
       | This is compounded by the subtle effect of the trees being
       | adapted for Minnesota, whereas Washington's climate is much
       | warmer.
        
       | Alex3917 wrote:
       | SnapDragon is a vastly improved version of Honeycrisp anyway. The
       | only real issue with it is that only growers within New York
       | State are allowed to grow it, so it's not nearly as available.
        
         | matsemann wrote:
         | Curious, is that something that can be enforced?
        
           | gs17 wrote:
           | They likely have a patent, although searching "apple
           | snapdragon patent" mostly gets results involving Qualcomm.
           | 
           | Edit: found the patent
           | https://patents.google.com/patent/USPP22228
        
             | papercrane wrote:
             | Looks like Cornell owns the rights to the apple and are
             | working exclusively with a NY apple growers collective to
             | commercialize the apple.
             | 
             | https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2013/08/snapdragon-and-
             | ruby...
        
           | aspenmayer wrote:
           | Doubtful?
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proplifting
        
           | throwup238 wrote:
           | Apple trees aren't grown from seed because the offspring will
           | have huge genetic variability and won't resemble the parent.
           | Instead they take a hardy rootstock species and graft
           | scionwood from the fruit producing trees on to it. Once the
           | apple variety is grown, repeating it without the graft is
           | impractical and you can't just save seed from store bought
           | apples and expect to get the same thing. An entire variety
           | might be cloned from a single tree that produced the best
           | fruit out of hundreds.
           | 
           | For new designer varieties getting commercial access to the
           | grafts usually requires signing contract that you won't
           | create and sell your own grafts so the creator can control
           | who gets it.
        
         | nikole9696 wrote:
         | Oh man I found these once and just LOVED them.
        
         | JshWright wrote:
         | Yeah, as a resident of NY apple country (I'm ~20 minutes from
         | Beak & Skiff, frequently voted one of the best orchards in the
         | country), SnapDragon is the way to go.
        
       | tptacek wrote:
       | She doesn't really explain why the honeycrisps she gets at the
       | farmer's market are hit-or-miss now, which would have been a more
       | interesting story to unwind.
        
         | angry_moose wrote:
         | If its anything like our farmers market I'd bet they aren't
         | actually locally grown.
         | 
         | It's really hard to unpack which of our vendors are truly
         | local; and which just buy produce from wholesalers, slap a
         | "Name's Family Farm" sign on the table, and pretend to be
         | locally grown.
         | 
         | You'd be a lot better off going to the actual orchard, but
         | those are often 1+ hours away.
        
           | exmadscientist wrote:
           | Exactly!
           | 
           | I'm in Seattle. You would think I could reliably find good
           | apples here.
           | 
           | I can not. Even at farmer's markets, it's obvious some of the
           | offerings have been stored... which makes me question the
           | stuff that isn't obvious. At least it's better than the
           | supermarkets, which have been selling New Zealand apples...
           | in Washington... in September... yeah no thanks!
        
             | gammarator wrote:
             | Keep a look out for https://www.collinsfamilyorchards.com/
             | at your market, or try their CSA!
        
         | sitkack wrote:
         | Folks are known to sell national supply chain produce at
         | farmer's markets where they can get high prices.
        
       | Electricniko wrote:
       | The first couple of years I found Honeycrisp at my local market,
       | which would have been 2001 and 2002 (because I'll never forget a
       | lot of things from September 2001), the apples were HUGE. More
       | like a large grapefruit than an apple in size. They still had the
       | great flavor and texture of later Honeycrisps, it was a huge
       | shock compared to normal apples at the time. It may have been
       | something with the weather that produced them like that, but man
       | would I love to see those things pop up again.
        
         | readthenotes1 wrote:
         | I was buying them for my daughter to eat at lunch at school and
         | she sent me a picture of her honercrisp compared to her
         | friends' apples. It was like midgets versus Giants... Giants
         | for the win
        
         | erikerikson wrote:
         | I was told by a grower that a large factor in apple size is the
         | number of apples on the tree. Growers thin the fruit to control
         | fruit size. Kinda like the tree is going to make some set
         | tonnage of apple and if you thin them, it loads that tonnage
         | into the remaining apples.
         | 
         | Apparently we like larger apples in the US while smaller apples
         | are preferred in China.
        
       | notwhereyouare wrote:
       | Helped a friend film a video about what happened to red
       | delicious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgZNDTJSvJQ
        
         | derbOac wrote:
         | I used to live in the area around where the red delicious was
         | first developed, and they are indeed very different from what
         | people became used to. The original red delicious - assuming
         | the local orchards have something closer to the original -
         | is/was much smaller, rounder, and closer to something like a
         | macintosh. If you had one you wouldn't recognize it as red
         | delicious unless someone told you and then you'd be confused.
         | 
         | I worry a bit the same thing is happening with honeycrisp. In
         | addition to the the out-of-season sales (some of the dates
         | people are talking about with honeycrisp are ridiculous),
         | there's genetic drift. The University of Minnesota has always
         | been worried about this happening, speaking to staff with their
         | apple program. The problem is clones get propagated from clones
         | of clones, some of which are fraudulently hybrids with other
         | varieties, and eventually you end up with something that's not
         | really the same anymore. Big growers choose ancestors that
         | produce fruit with the characteristics that benefit them, and
         | by that point buyers don't remember the original anymore.
         | 
         | The problem, as people are pointing out, is largely what large-
         | scale agriculture does to plant varieties in terms of breeding,
         | as well as the problems with freshness. What the growers and
         | distributors want from fruit is not what you want as a
         | consumer. There's probably some important lessons there for
         | capitalism or markets in general.
        
       | jader201 wrote:
       | This rankings site [1] was shared on HN a couple years ago [2],
       | and since then I've switched to Honeycrisp.
       | 
       | While I agree they aren't always the most tasty, they are almost
       | always (like 98%) crisp and never mealy to the point I want to
       | stop eating it, unlike nearly every other breed I've tried (which
       | admittedly is only about 7-8 or the most common ones).
       | 
       | I will take a less flavorful crisp apple 100% of the time over a
       | mealy apple.
       | 
       | So even a mediocre Honeycrisp is, to me, still way better than
       | nearly all the other ones.
       | 
       | [1] https://applerankings.com/
       | 
       | [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33639206
        
         | Tomte wrote:
         | I don't care much for Kanzi and Fuji and Pink Lady. To me,
         | Braeburn is good, Boskoop is great, and Berlepsch is amazing,
         | but sometimes hard to get outside the apple grow regions.
        
         | eps wrote:
         | The list doesn't have Tentation and it has Jazz at mediocre.
         | 
         | I wouldn't put much trust in it, at least if you are in Europe.
        
           | onli wrote:
           | Yeah, it goes completely against my taste (and maybe against
           | how apples are over here)? I had only delicious Fuji apples
           | for example, from consistency to taste (if you like sweet at
           | least), which the site describes as utterly awful. Especially
           | the local ones are awesome. Incomprehensible ranking for me.
        
           | acdha wrote:
           | Growing conditions really matter. We really like Gold Rush
           | apples and our farmers market has three orchards who grow
           | them but the ones from one of those vendors consistently
           | aren't as good, even though it's clearly the same variety.
           | Something about Pennsylvania vs. northern Maryland made more
           | of a difference than I thought.
        
             | quercusa wrote:
             | Bought some Gold Rush apples for the first time yesterday
             | (South Mountain, PA) and really liked them - crunchy, tart,
             | and spicy.
        
           | pvaldes wrote:
           | Its worse offense is not even mentioning many very good
           | European apples like Cox Pippin or Mingan. Is just a list of
           | commercial apples, many of then unknown or ignored in Europe.
        
             | djur wrote:
             | Why is it an offense for an American to write about the
             | apples available in their market?
        
               | pvaldes wrote:
               | Not her offense, "its" offense, The worst offense from
               | the "list of best apples" is that is clearly biased and
               | omits some very good varieties that are well known.
        
         | sharkweek wrote:
         | As an apple connoisseur myself I've switched from honeycrisp to
         | cosmic crisp over the last three years and I'm never going
         | back.
         | 
         | I'm fully aligned I eat apples for the texture above all else,
         | with flavor being important but nothing close to how much
         | crunch eat bite has.
        
           | loeg wrote:
           | YMMV but I've found Honeycrisps mostly crispier than Cosmic
           | Crisps. (I switched in the other direction -- had Cosmic
           | Crisps first.)
        
             | CarVac wrote:
             | I find that at my local grocery store in NJ, Cosmic Crisps
             | to be more consistently good than Honeycrisps, despite
             | being less crispy. But the best Honeycrisps are better.
             | 
             | Sweetango is also consistently flavorful and crispy and
             | normally better than Cosmic, but the availability is what's
             | inconsistent.
             | 
             | (And a Fuji apple I had in Japan was as good as the best
             | Honeycrisps)
        
           | poulsbohemian wrote:
           | This is the way... there's research already at WSU for when
           | the Cosmic Crip runs its course and the world is ready for
           | the next apple with the same basic characteristics.
        
           | whamlastxmas wrote:
           | I discovered cosmic a few months ago and refuse to buy
           | anything other
        
           | flanbiscuit wrote:
           | I realized I like my apples real sour so Pink Ladies are my
           | favorite at the moment.
        
             | stock_toaster wrote:
             | Same here! Glad I'm not alone. :)
        
             | Tomte wrote:
             | How about Granny Smith?
        
               | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
               | Granny Smith's are the best apple. They're one of the
               | healthiest apples to eat and they last a surprising
               | amount of time without going mushy.
        
               | anon84873628 wrote:
               | What makes them more healthy than others?
        
               | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
               | Their green skin can help with inflammation as it
               | contains enzymes that protect T-cells. They're helpful to
               | prevent diabetes and are recommended for diabetics to
               | eat. They're high in phytonutrients and are apparently
               | have the best antimutagenic potential of apple breeds. I
               | think most of their benefits are shared with other green
               | apples.
               | 
               | They've got high fibre content whilst being lower in
               | sugar than other varieties and are good for gut bacteria.
               | 
               | However, the best apple to eat is one that you like as
               | it's better to eat any type of apple than none.
               | 
               | https://wellintruth.com/the-healthiest-apple-variety-the-
               | com...
        
               | flanbiscuit wrote:
               | I haven't tried one in a long time. Will give them a shot
               | next time I'm at the grocery
        
             | semi-extrinsic wrote:
             | I used to always get Pink Lady, but in the past couple of
             | years I've found Kanzi to be better. And somehow my partner
             | gets less allergic from Kanzi as well.
        
           | mring33621 wrote:
           | I agree that Cosmic Crisp are better. But I still prefer
           | MacIntosh, Empire or Cortland, though.
        
             | lukas099 wrote:
             | Macs are my favorite too, but they don't have the
             | consistently crisp texture of the honeycrisp.
        
               | Blackthorn wrote:
               | Age hits all three of those really badly, they basically
               | have to be picked up locally in season and can't store or
               | ship like honeycrisp can.
        
           | pvaldes wrote:
           | > I eat apples for the texture above all else, with flavor
           | being important but nothing close to how much crunch eat bite
           | has.
           | 
           | You may enjoy the Fuyu Persimmon also. Eaten with firm skin
           | is definitely crunchy. The flavor is moderately sweet.
        
             | anon84873628 wrote:
             | Don't wait too long though! Because then they get a soft
             | jammy texture that some people absolutely hate.
             | Transitioning into full goo eventually. (Yes that's the
             | case for fuyu too, not just hachiya).
             | 
             | Also some fuyu can still be astringent when very firm /
             | underripe.
        
           | Shog9 wrote:
           | If you get a chance, try WineCrisp. Loads of flavor and
           | _stubbornly_ crisp. The things keep for months, even in less
           | than ideal storage (such as a fridge), and even after losing
           | a great deal of moisture retain a snappy bite.
           | 
           | Only real downside is that the appearance isn't very flashy;
           | they're the russet potato of modern apples.
        
           | BoingBoomTschak wrote:
           | If you ever come to France, try the Chantecler, truly my
           | favourite of them all, _extremely_ consistent and perfect for
           | cakes too.
        
           | UncleOxidant wrote:
           | Cosmic crisp is amazing. I also like a good Fuji, though
           | they're not as consistently good. Jazz and Ambrosia can be
           | good as well. It's nice that we have so many varieties to
           | choose from now. When I was a kid it was either Red|Golden
           | "Delicious" or Granny Smith.
        
           | JackFr wrote:
           | I have no dog in this fight but I've always been amused at my
           | farmers market by the cleverly named Ludacrisp.
           | 
           | https://applerankings.com/ludacrisp-apple-review/
        
           | 7thaccount wrote:
           | Cosmiccrisp is great. Like a honeycrisp, but with some
           | tartness.
        
           | ryukoposting wrote:
           | Out of curiosity, where do you live? I've been a Midwesterner
           | my whole life and I don't relate all that strongly to the
           | article.
        
         | mastercheif wrote:
         | I'm fully on the "SweeTango" hype train, which AppleRankings #1
         | rated breed:
         | 
         | https://applerankings.com/sweetango-apple-review/
         | 
         | SweeTango's #1 fault, which the site calls out, is that they do
         | not store well. The recent bags I've taken home are notably
         | less crisp and hardy than earlier in the fall.
         | 
         | That said, they'll still be absolutely delicious for another
         | few weeks, highly recommend buying a bag. Trader Joe's usually
         | carries.
        
           | redserk wrote:
           | SweeTango tastes great. I've been buying apple cider made of
           | it for the last two autumns.
        
           | taftster wrote:
           | SweeTango is a cross between Honeycrisp and Zestar. It would
           | be interesting to know how many highly ranked apples are also
           | crossed with a Honeycrisp on the top of the list.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SweeTango
        
           | gammarator wrote:
           | The SweeTango I had was cloyingly, almost artificially sweet.
           | Can't tell if it was an unlucky pick or I just have different
           | preferences--I like an Ambrosia.
        
           | hackama wrote:
           | I just bought a bag from Trader Joe's and it was absolutely
           | disgusting. Completely mealy and flavorless. My family agrees
           | and will probably never trust my apple picking skills again.
        
             | jiqiren wrote:
             | You probably got an out of season New Zealand grown version
             | which doesn't make the boat ride...
             | https://applerankings.com/sweetango-apple-review/
        
               | rafram wrote:
               | I've had some very gross SweeTangos grown in Washington.
        
           | rafram wrote:
           | I've gotten SweeTangos twice (in season, from Washington) and
           | found them totally unappealing. No sourness to add interest
           | to the flavor, not very crispy, just intense sweetness with a
           | tiny bit of a mealy feeling.
           | 
           | Even if I just got duds, they fail the consistency test that
           | honeycrisps pass.
        
           | hyper_cube wrote:
           | we put them straight into the refrigerator as soon as we get
           | them home, and this works for any apple variety we buy, to
           | preserve quality and flavor.
        
         | david-gpu wrote:
         | Glad that you've found what works for your you.
         | 
         | At the same time, it is worth noting that not everybody likes
         | crisp apples, so the ranking in that website is... daringly
         | interpretive.
        
           | bscphil wrote:
           | Yeah, I find the idea of using a rating site like this
           | extremely bizarre. And after clicking on the link, that
           | opinion is only further cemented by what seems to be a
           | deliberate opinionated and sarcastic tone. I can only assume
           | they want to court controversy for the sake of clicks.
           | 
           | For what it's worth, the _only_ apples I buy, when they 're
           | local and in season, are McIntosh, which this site helpfully
           | puts in the "pure shit" bin. That's just, well, wrong? Apples
           | can be good without being bred for flavorless crispness like
           | so many are today. And there's a difference between "soft"
           | and "mealy", and good McIntosh apples are firmly (ha) on the
           | soft side.
           | 
           | I like pink lady apples too, which this site rates
           | "excellent", and honeycrisp are consistently acceptable - the
           | Starbucks of apples - so it's not that they're making things
           | up, but I think they are only rating apples along one axis
           | and seem to have a thing for recent cultivars over classics
           | and heirloom varieties.
        
             | axpy wrote:
             | I lived for some time in eastern Canada and I have very
             | fond memories of freshly picked McIntoshes and I even dare
             | to say they were my favorites. Fresh and crisp with a good
             | amount of acidity that balances the sweetness beautifully.
             | That being said, they don't age super well.
        
             | djur wrote:
             | It's the personal opinions of a comedian, and he does
             | explain his rankings. I don't agree with all of his takes,
             | but there's no such thing as an objective review, anyway.
        
             | fma wrote:
             | The site has SugarBee sweetness of 3 out of 5...The author
             | of the site is a comedian, so I guess one can't anything on
             | that site seriously, at all.
             | 
             | "SugarBee(r) apples emit a sweet aroma and have high sugar
             | content, generally reaching 14.6 Brix, compared to their
             | parent variety honeycrisp, that reaches 13.8 Brix. "
             | 
             | https://specialtyproduce.com/produce/SugarBee_Apples_18673.
             | p...
        
           | Wowfunhappy wrote:
           | I mean, the author is a comedian:
           | 
           | > Brian Frange is a comedian and writer who has been yelling
           | about apples for years. He started yelling about apples
           | professionally in 2016 while working on Comedy Central's Not
           | Safe with Nikki Glaser while serving as co-host on the Not
           | Safe Podcast. [...] What started as a bit revolving around
           | his love of apples has now become a full-time job where Brian
           | makes $700,000,000,000 per week providing apple advice for
           | wealthy fruit enthusiasts. Brian is not in the pocket of big
           | apple and all reviews are inarguably accurate and not
           | corrupted by corporate influence.
           | 
           | https://applerankings.com/about/
           | 
           | It's all in good fun. Obviously if you prefer Red Delicious
           | you're free to [strikethrough]have terrible
           | taste[/strikethrough] disagree.
        
             | david-gpu wrote:
             | _> Obviously if you prefer Red Delicious you're free to
             | [strikethrough]have terrible taste[/strikethrough]
             | disagree._
             | 
             | I made the mistake of purchasing that variety once, and
             | learned from that experience. Fuji apples, on the other
             | hand, do not deserve a score of 56 FFS.
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | Red Delicious are the canonical example of a product that
               | was optimized for looks (and storage) over flavor and
               | texture.
               | 
               | I'm told that the original Red Delicious are in fact very
               | good. So good that we made them our Platonic ideal of
               | "apple". And then... we targeted the wrong metric.
        
         | ted_bunny wrote:
         | So honeycrisp is the Top 40 radio of apples. Simply that which
         | offends least.
        
           | exmadscientist wrote:
           | More like the radio edit of your favorite track: was great,
           | got diluted by assholes pushing it on the masses, is still
           | great if you can find the original version you fell in love
           | with.
        
         | acchow wrote:
         | I've eaten many mealy honeycrisp apples. Just let it sit on
         | your counter for 2 months then try it. Discount grocery stores
         | are often selling many-months old apples.
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | What is the most sour apple?
         | 
         | I really like granny smith apples for the sour flavor profile,
         | but most review websites rate it poorly.
        
           | slothtrop wrote:
           | Empire is my favorite because of it's crisp texture and semi-
           | tartness. Granny Smith is probably next, it's the most sour
           | one I can reliably find.
           | 
           | Pink lady's texture is not great and I find it too sweet.
        
           | BoxFour wrote:
           | Granny Smiths are probably the most tart generally available
           | apple, but any cooking apple in general is usually sharper.
           | You might also like McIntosh or even Pink Lady.
           | 
           | You could also go down the cider apple route or even
           | crabapples if you really want, though they often tend to be
           | more bitter than tart.
        
             | bpye wrote:
             | I'm a big fan of a McIntosh, and pretty easy to find in BC.
             | The apple ranking site also rates them poorly, with which I
             | disagree.
        
           | dmoy wrote:
           | Granny Smith is ubiquitous. It's often difficult to get a
           | more sour apple than a Granny Smith. Pink Lady is less sour
           | IIRC. McIntosh or Braeburn are definitely less sour.
           | 
           | If you're in the Midwest (especially MN, WI, Iowa, etc) you
           | can get Haralson, which are kinda like Granny Smith but more
           | just straight sour.
           | 
           | Haralson is probably my favorite. But disclaimer, I also like
           | eating straight lemons, so ... yea. Many people will use
           | Haralson only for baking.
           | 
           | I hear that in Europe they have a few types that are more
           | sour, idk.
        
           | pvaldes wrote:
           | Crabapples, and all the fancy ones with red meat
           | 
           | And a lot of cider apples
        
             | echelon wrote:
             | I had no idea crabapples were safe to eat.
             | 
             | When I grew up, we had several crabapple trees in the yard.
             | They very frequently bore fruit. My mom always told me
             | these were toxic to eat, so I stayed away from them.
             | Honeysuckle and blackberries, on the other hand...
             | 
             | I just googled it. It's a common myth, I suppose?
        
               | pvaldes wrote:
               | Crabapples make an excellent jelly, that you can have
               | also in different colors depending on the cultivar.
               | 
               | https://www.alamy.com/home-made-crab-apple-jelly-malus-
               | evere...
               | 
               | https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/40275/mary-wynnes-
               | crabappl...
               | 
               | https://thequietfoodie.com/my-first-ever-crab-apple-
               | jelly-re...
               | 
               | As raw fruit they are perfectly edible when mature. The
               | flavor is a mild apple flavor, a little bland an can be
               | sour also. As in all apples, the seeds have cyanide, but
               | as long as you don't eat them or filter the seeds after
               | cooking it, it will not be a problem. Just don't eat it
               | whole.
               | 
               | The immature fruits are hard as a steel ball, so there is
               | a risk of suffocation with children, but apart if this,
               | if you discard the seeds they are perfectly edible. I ate
               | them many times, even if I prefer to let most in the tree
               | for the birds.
        
               | OJFord wrote:
               | It just means wild apple trees, not a cultivated variety.
               | Similar to picking wild blackberries, except I think they
               | are true to seed.
        
               | pvaldes wrote:
               | > It just means wild apple trees, not a cultivated
               | variety.
               | 
               | "Wild" apples are Malus sylvestris or just feral domestic
               | apples Malus domestica.
               | 
               | Crabapples comprise the rest (>30 different species) of
               | apples and its hybrids. Malus florida from Japan is
               | famous for its glorious blossom for example. Malus
               | sieboldi from China or Malus bacatta from Siberia are
               | also crabapples. Some are true to seed, but other aren't
               | and there are many cultivars selected by blossom or fruit
               | display.
               | 
               | There are some crabapples cultured specifically for
               | culinary purposes, like Golden Hornet that bear heavy
               | amounts of small yellow fruits. Very good for compote and
               | jelly.
        
           | u8080 wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonovka Very sour, but tbh
           | not my favourite in terms of taste.
        
         | mmanfrin wrote:
         | Can't trust a site that has Fuji 39 points lower than
         | honeycrisp when they are extremely similar.
        
           | seattle_spring wrote:
           | I've never had a Fuji that's anywhere near as delightful as a
           | Honeycrisp.
        
             | snowwrestler wrote:
             | I have, but only from the farmers market. Their Fujis are
             | noticeably different (way better) from Fujis in the grocery
             | stores.
        
             | CarVac wrote:
             | I have... in Japan.
        
         | edaemon wrote:
         | This is my take as well and I've tried a ton.
         | 
         | A childhood friend's dad is one of the people who developed the
         | Honeycrisp and SweeTango (and Rave/First Kiss, Zestar, etc). We
         | always had access to the latest and zaniest variants, but the
         | Honeycrisp was just consistently very good. Yeah, sometimes
         | you'd find an incredible fruit punch thing, but the next day
         | you'd try another and it was gross and mealy. Honeycrisp was
         | always reliable.
         | 
         | SweeTango is also excellent and reliable but it's harder to
         | find and more expensive.
        
         | lotsofpulp wrote:
         | Rock it apples have been the most consistently good for me.
        
         | beala wrote:
         | This site has come up in conversation multiple times as if it's
         | some sort of serious resource, but iiuc this is just one guy's
         | opinion, and if you read the reviews, it's clear he's mostly
         | just writing these for entertainment. Also, it's not clear how
         | many times he's even tasted these apples and when those
         | tastings occurred. Sometimes an apple just has a bad year!
         | 
         | Anyway, I'm mostly just salty that he panned the cosmic crisp.
         | They're good this year!
        
         | jader201 wrote:
         | To be clear (to respond to a few people panning the legitimacy
         | of applerankings.com), I didn't actually take the site super
         | seriously, it just made me take more notice of the Honeycrisp
         | and try it out.
         | 
         | That's when I realized that they were very rarely mealy,
         | something I'd been in search of for years.
         | 
         | But agree that the site is mostly intended to be a more
         | humorous take on apples. (And, to be fair, it is quite funny.)
        
         | Tagbert wrote:
         | I've been very fond of yellow Opal apples recently. Very firm
         | with a good taste.
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | Weird, there's a variety at my local farm market called Crimson
         | Crisp that is my new favorite because it is tasty and extremely
         | crisp. But it's not even listed on that ranking site... maybe
         | it's regional?
         | 
         | And I've never heard of the Cosmic Crisp, which is showing up
         | in a lot of comments. Again, maybe regional?
        
         | Blackthorn wrote:
         | Empire has this problem. Fresh off the tree they are some of
         | the ideal apples. After a couple weeks of storage though, they
         | lose all that crispness and become a sad experience.
        
         | quickthrowman wrote:
         | I live in MN and my preferred apple depends on the time of
         | year, I try to get locally grown apples whenever possible by
         | visiting orchards, or Lunds if I can't get to an orchard.
         | 
         | I like First Kiss (Rave) apples in August and early September,
         | SweeTango in September and October, and Honeycrisp at any other
         | time. SweeTango is my favorite, you can still get them as
         | flavorful tennis/baseball size apples in MN vs the monstrous
         | grapefruit sized flavorless Honeycrisp apples that seem to be
         | everywhere these days.
         | 
         | There are still fantastic Honeycrisp apples available with lots
         | of flavor, just ignore the gigantic ones.
        
         | insane_dreamer wrote:
         | It also depends on when you get them. Here in the PNW,
         | Honeycrisp apples in the fall are delicious because they're
         | grown locally and not stored long. Just eat it as seasonal
         | fruit and it lives up to its promise.
        
       | prpl wrote:
       | They are just bad in the offseason though? New batches should be
       | good?
       | 
       | My favorite is the kanzi, but it's not really available year
       | round. Most apples peak in November anyway
        
         | kseistrup wrote:
         | Kanzi (syn.: Nicoter) is the only apple I eat. All other I can
         | get around here are just meh. Ufortunately, Kani/Nicoter are
         | rather uncommon.
        
       | lucidguppy wrote:
       | I wonder if you could test for crispness using ultrasonic tech.
       | 
       | Just make sauce out of the mealy ones.
        
       | kylecazar wrote:
       | I went through this just yesterday. Bought a bunch of
       | Honeycrisps, and was underwhelmed compared to my memory of them.
       | I also don't like Cosmic Crisps anymore.
       | 
       | Side note: Those new jumbo blueberries are insane.
        
       | AdmiralAsshat wrote:
       | Just seems to happen with every apple I like, unfortunately. I
       | think I'm currently on Cosmic Crisp or Jazz apples as my mains. I
       | give them about five years before they start to suck.
        
       | YackerLose wrote:
       | I always cut them into slices, then leave them in an airtight
       | plastic container for an hour or two, so the juice can seep out a
       | little.
        
         | mistercheph wrote:
         | Do you do that with your apples too?
        
       | mind-blight wrote:
       | Cosmic Crisp is a new varietal that seems like a solid successor
       | to honey crisp. It seems like they started in a cooler climate (I
       | first encountered them in northern Oregon), and they're
       | fantastic.
        
         | scottyeager wrote:
         | They were developed in Washington and apparently that's a first
         | for a widely grown variety:
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | If you live within a few hours of apple country, do yourself a
       | favor next fall and go discover some new varietals. There are
       | hundreds produced commercially (read: some farm grows them) that
       | will never see a supermarket. Try a bunch and use your favorites
       | for fun dishes you rarely make: pies, tarts, cider, butter, cut
       | them into oatmeal, sandwiches, salads. They can taste so amazing
       | and different that it's a fun adventure. (Plus then you can
       | pretend you're a fancy food person, saying to your friends _"
       | Ooh, the Macoun had a good season this year!"_)
       | 
       | And if you have a bit of land, start some trees! They are a
       | wonderful gift for future generations. Plant a bunch and leave
       | them alone, let the survivors flourish. Worst case they die and
       | you have some good firewood for a bbq.
        
       | dmitrig01 wrote:
       | Apple grower here. I still don't understand Honeycrisps. I'm on
       | the younger side, so I haven't seen that many years of
       | Honeycrisp, but I feel I have never had a good one. My experience
       | of Honeycrisp is that it is super crunchy, almost too much so,
       | but completely devoid of flavor. To me, it's like eating crunchy
       | water.
       | 
       | As others have pointed out, this article doesn't actually explain
       | why (or even if) Honeycrisp has gotten worse. One thing I will
       | add to this discussion, though I don't know if it is true in the
       | case of Honeycrisp, is that it is definitely not a matter of
       | breeding (nor selective breeding, breeding for storage, etc): in
       | order to produce more apple trees, Honeycrisps (or any other
       | variety) aren't bred, they are asexually propagated through
       | grafting. That means all Honeycrisp trees are more-or-less
       | genetically identical.
       | 
       | That said, just like any organism, as trees grow and produce new
       | cells at the tips of branches, there is always a chance for a
       | mutation. Sometimes these branch mutations (called "sports") have
       | visible genetic differences: stronger coloration, earlier
       | ripening, or perhaps earlier storage (though this is harder to
       | notice). This is how Red Delicious went from a wonderful apple to
       | tasteless, mealy cardboard: sports were selected over time that
       | prioritized storage and color over texture and flavor.
       | 
       | As an apple grower, I have had the opportunity to taste
       | Honeycrisps straight off the tree, and to me, they taste just as
       | flavorless as the ones I get from the store. I grow almost all
       | heirloom varieties, and I can tell you there is one that for me
       | is head-and-shoulders above the rest: Wickson Crab. If you are in
       | California, I recommend marking your calendar for September to
       | search this variety out at the farmers markets (or better, plant
       | a tree yourself!). There are many other wonderful varieties that
       | stand out from grocery store apples. In a pinch, I'll get a Pink
       | Lady from the store, as I find it's the most flavorful of the
       | commonly available apples, but I find they sit heavy in my
       | stomach in a way that homegrown or farmer's market apples don't.
       | I believe this is to do with the fact that apples available at
       | the grocery store are picked early, before the starches have
       | converted into sugars, so the higher starch content may be harder
       | to digest.
       | 
       | Hint: any apple with an "apple green" undercoat is underripe; to
       | pick a ripe apple, wait for that bright green to mellow out or
       | change colors. For redder apples, it can be harder to see, but
       | most apples have some green visible under the red (Pink Lady is
       | again a great example of this). And yes, Granny Smith apples are
       | so sour precisely because they are picked and sold underripe; a
       | ripe Granny Smith is yellow and sweet.
        
         | jt2190 wrote:
         | > I find [Pink Lady to be] the most flavorful of the commonly
         | available apples, but I find they sit heavy in my stomach in a
         | way that homegrown or farmer's market apples don't. I believe
         | this is to do with the fact that apples available at the
         | grocery store are picked early, before the starches have
         | converted into sugars.
         | 
         | I'm not an apple expert, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of
         | "supermarket varieties" like Pink Lady have higher cellulose
         | which helps them withstand relatively rough handling. (For
         | those who don't know: Apples are extremely easy to bruise, you
         | should handle them carefully and never ever press on them to
         | test for ripeness!)
        
           | otteromkram wrote:
           | > never ever press on them to test for ripeness!
           | 
           | Please tell me that people don't actually do this. If you
           | have seen it, let me know and I'll reach out to some of the
           | major grocers to maybe add some signage in their produce
           | section about evaluating apple ripeness.
           | 
           | I will, maybe, spin the apple in my hand lightly to determine
           | if there's some notable damage, but I'd never press into the
           | flesh and dent it on purpose. Maybe that's what you're seen
           | people do?
           | 
           | Then again, in our zero consequences society, I wouldn't be
           | surprised if people took the IDGAF attitude about damaging
           | produce they don't intend on purchasing.
        
         | pvaldes wrote:
         | > this article doesn't actually explain why (or even if)
         | Honeycrisp has gotten worse
         | 
         | Is no mystery at all what is happening here.
         | 
         | One of the things that I loved from plant physiology is how
         | futuristic it is. Bordering black magic sometimes. For example.
         | Do you knew that potions of eternal youth exist... for apples?.
         | 
         | You just need to apply some commercial product and this apple
         | will kept brilliant skin, no wrinkles, and bright color for
         | weeks. Fantastic, right? The sellers and the supermarkets will
         | love that.
         | 
         | The only problem is that it cost sugar to keep it alive in this
         | state of white-snow suspended animation. As long as there is
         | sugar remaining it works. After a while you have a good-looking
         | apple with a disappointing bland watery taste.
         | 
         | This is half of the explanation that the writer was looking
         | for. The other half is a camera storage time too extended.
        
           | dmitrig01 wrote:
           | This is interesting. Could you provide any information about
           | this commercial product? As far as I understand, the most
           | sophisticated treatment happening is low oxygen storage. But
           | neither of these things explain why apples straight off the
           | tree are also bland.
        
             | pvaldes wrote:
             | > neither of these things explain why apples straight off
             | the tree are also bland
             | 
             | In that case I would suspect of application of Gibberellins
             | to make the fruit bigger and alter the maturation time.
             | 
             | A year without enough sun, incorrect watering or lack of
             | boron can also affect the flavor or the firmness of the
             | meat.
        
         | taftster wrote:
         | I wonder if your "taste" for an apple is just so completely
         | drowned out by your experience and exposure to the apple
         | industry. Like, if I had the opportunity to taste every apple
         | variety all the time, maybe the Honeycrisp starts to trend
         | towards crispy water (amusing analogy by the way).
         | 
         | But for the average consumer, maybe a strong tasting apple is a
         | put off. I personally choose and eat Honeycrisp consistently
         | every time and I'm completely 100% satisfied with every apple
         | I've had of it. There have been some better than others, of
         | course, but still satisfied with the quality, taste and
         | crispness regardless.
         | 
         | I have no doubt that maybe Honeycrisp just has such a mass
         | appeal that apple experts might not actually prefer its taste.
         | Maybe I'm just a "boring" white bread kind of apple consumer.
         | I'm fine with this, honestly, because Honeycrisps make me
         | happy. And when they are on sale for $1 / pound, they make me
         | even happier.
         | 
         | It's possibly like wine this way too, where the very best wines
         | are those that only the experts can really taste and
         | appreciate. For me, the differences between varieties of wine
         | is completely lost.
        
         | nkurz wrote:
         | _I can tell you there is one that for me is head-and-shoulders
         | above the rest: Wickson Crab._
         | 
         | +1 to Wickson Crab. It's my favorite apple as well. I grew them
         | in California, but my tree here in Vermont isn't bearing yet,
         | so I'm not sure they'll be the same.
         | 
         | Dmitri, where are you growing them? And who is selling them at
         | Farmer's Markets in California? I worked a lot of markets in
         | the Bay Area, and I don't remember ever seeing them for sale
         | (although that was 10 years ago).
        
       | limit499karma wrote:
       | TIL "10 billion apples a year get picked by hand in the state of
       | Washington".
       | 
       | Interview question: estimate number of pickers and number of
       | trees.
        
       | W-Stool wrote:
       | Now do chicken. Here in the USA chickens are getting bigger (I
       | saw a 6.5 pound chicken in the store the other day) and blander.
       | The tissue to me seems very spongy. What is going on with
       | chickens?
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Yeah it's pretty crazy. The ones the supermarket uses for the
         | whole roasted chickens seem to be smaller, so you might ask if
         | they sell them uncooked.
         | 
         | Or check for local farms that sell free-range birds. They will
         | have a more varied diet including insects, grubs, and not just
         | corn or whatever they feed the birds at the big factory farms.
         | They won't be cheap however.
        
         | kccqzy wrote:
         | Recently I've resolved to buy only Silkie chicken* from stores.
         | They are moderately sized and still taste good. They are easy
         | to tell due to their black skin.
         | 
         | *: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkie
        
       | nikole9696 wrote:
       | I'm with all the folks who say they've swapped Honeycrisp for
       | Cosmic Crisp. The Honeycrisp I get now is a poor shadow of what
       | it used to be. This article is very interesting. I suspected the
       | quality shift had to do with mass market selling, but it's nice
       | to see the long form version of what I suspected.
        
         | dgacmu wrote:
         | Cosmic crisp has such good flesh but the skin is awfully tough.
         | Is there a best of both worlds?
         | 
         | (I like sweetango too but it's hard to find)
        
       | quijoteuniv wrote:
       | TLDR: The Honeycrisp apple, developed by the University of
       | Minnesota in the 1980s, was initially celebrated for its crisp
       | texture and balanced flavor, quickly becoming a consumer
       | favorite. However, its delicate nature and susceptibility to
       | disorders like bitter pit made it challenging to cultivate,
       | particularly in warmer regions such as Washington State, a major
       | hub for apple production. Despite these challenges, growers
       | planted Honeycrisp trees extensively to meet high demand, storing
       | the apples for prolonged periods to ensure year-round
       | availability. This mass production and extended storage
       | compromised the apple's quality, leading to an oversupply and
       | reduced consumer satisfaction. Consequently, the Honeycrisp has
       | become a commoditized apple, losing the exceptional qualities
       | that once distinguished it.
        
       | NelsonMinar wrote:
       | Storage is the key culprit. One solution for that in the US is to
       | buy New Zealand apples when it's nowhere near apple season in the
       | northern hemisphere. Crazy to ship apples half-way round the
       | world but they are delicious. I mostly see Envy apples from NZ in
       | California.
       | 
       | Garlic is another item ruined by long storage. Christopher Ranch
       | is reportedly storing garlic for 2+ years in refrigeration.
       | That's why it doesn't taste like garlic anymore.
        
         | IneffablePigeon wrote:
         | Feels like a better solution is to buy when it's in season and
         | find something else to enjoy at other times
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | I need to eat in winter though which means nothing is in
           | season near me. Either it is shipped long distances or it is
           | stored.
        
       | peterbonney wrote:
       | I used to have an orchard with c. 35 apple trees, 2 of which were
       | honeycrisp. I can confirm that they are tricky trees to manage. I
       | was theoretically in a good area for honeycrisps. But the trees
       | were prone to all sorts of maladies that didn't affect my other
       | varietals, including antique varietals that are traditionally
       | thought of as "difficult". And when they did grow fruit it was
       | usually small and misshapen.
       | 
       | Apples are interesting and this is a great example of the
       | unexpected challenges you can face growing them. Every honeycrisp
       | tree is a perfect clone of the very first one, but the
       | environment of each is not a perfect clone of their original
       | environment. And the interplay of genetics and growing conditions
       | can have very unpredictable results.
        
         | dekhn wrote:
         | can you grow them on better rootstock with a graft?
        
           | floren wrote:
           | They were definitely already grafted, that's how the cloning
           | works.
        
             | peterbonney wrote:
             | Correct.
        
       | LanceJones wrote:
       | Just did a CTRL-F and I am shocked nobody is talking about the
       | magnificent McIntosh. Does the rest of the world (outside of
       | Canada) not get them? The fruit has red and green skin, a tart
       | flavour, and tender white flesh, which ripens in late September.
       | They've converted many, many people from other variants...
        
         | sevensor wrote:
         | A great variety that we can get in season where I live in the
         | US. I think they don't keep or transport well, and they're
         | mostly only available at farm stands around here.
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | No offense, just a joke - one of the ranking sites has a
         | humorous appraisal of McIntoshes:
         | 
         | https://applerankings.com/
        
         | dekhn wrote:
         | Macoun and Mcintosh define apples for me- from a pic-ur-own
         | stand in new england. I would eat so many that my teeth started
         | to feel sensitive from the acidity.
        
         | slothtrop wrote:
         | They are so mealy. The flavor is nice, but I hate the texture.
         | Empire apples have a similar tart flavor, but with a crisp
         | flesh similar to a golden or red delicious.
        
           | nearbuy wrote:
           | If it was mealy, it was probably improperly stored or grown
           | in too warm weather. They aren't normally mealy. They're more
           | tender and less crisp than Honeycrisp and have a pleasant
           | texture.
        
             | slothtrop wrote:
             | I'm referring to whatever texture Macintosh usually have.
             | It's not pleasant to me.
        
         | darepublic wrote:
         | I like McIntosh apples they are a favorite of mine but I've
         | been having them since I was a kid and I'm pretty sure it's
         | nostalgia and familiarity that makes me always pick it
        
         | bpye wrote:
         | I never had a McIntosh whilst living in the UK but since moving
         | to BC they've become a firm favourite.
        
       | poulsbohemian wrote:
       | Just a side note here... it's shocking to drive through the
       | orchards of Washington and Oregon and see how much fruit never
       | gets harvested because there's no commercial market for it. Acres
       | and acres of fruit left on the trees until they fall off and rot
       | because they aren't varieties desirable in the market any longer.
       | Why don't farmers replace with new varieties? In some cases they
       | do, but the capital expense is considerable to tear out trees /
       | bushes / etc and replace and wait for mature fruit.
        
       | stephanheijl wrote:
       | I would normally only buy apples around september/october in the
       | Netherlands, trying to get them fresh from local orchards when
       | possible. Elstar is amazing when plucked right from the tree, but
       | becomes mealy before the end of the year IMO.
       | 
       | My new go to is the Magic Star variety, which has been sold as
       | "Sprank" for the last 3 years at least in the Netherlands. These
       | apples keep amazingly well; they ran out of stock around the
       | summer in the last two years, but I found them delicious year
       | round. I hope that this cultivar does not befall the same fate as
       | the Honeycrisp, which I had the pleasure of tasting 5 years ago.
        
       | myflash13 wrote:
       | It's not just apples, dear. Mass market capitalism does this to
       | *everything*. Everything just becomes so bland. When I moved from
       | my native Canada to a poor backwater Eastern European country
       | (not in the EU) I suddenly noticed how different the experience
       | is with everything, from your local coffee shop to the tech
       | coworking spaces. The experience was just so much more personal,
       | rich, and boutique, and lovely. Now I can't stand Starbucks and
       | WeWork, and most Western consumer brands anymore. Sure, being in
       | a poor country you also get a lot of rotten apples as well, but
       | the variety is just so invigorating.
        
         | mistercheph wrote:
         | If you lived in a western country and thought WeWork seemed
         | like a nice place to work, and Starbucks was a nice place to
         | get coffee...
        
       | russellbeattie wrote:
       | One thing I never realized is that apple varieties can't be grown
       | from seeds.
       | 
       |  _" This is because seedling apples are 'extreme heterozygotes'.
       | Rather than resembling their parents, seedlings are all different
       | from each other and from their parents."_ [1]
       | 
       |  _" To propagate a cultivar [variety], material from the original
       | tree (scion) is joined to a rootstock. The rootstock provides the
       | roots for the new plant and the scion forms the top part of the
       | new plant, which produces the fruit. The rootstock comes from
       | another cultivar selected specifically for its ability to grow
       | well in the soil and induce desirable growth habits of the scion
       | (such as dwarfing)."_
       | 
       | " _The scion is introduced to the rootstock by either grafting or
       | budding. In grafting, a length of dormant wood from the original
       | tree is notched into the rootstock. In budding, small buds are
       | notched into the rootstock. Budding produces more trees from the
       | same amount of wood than grafting. "_ [2]
       | 
       | So when you read "cultivation", it's not like breeding green
       | beans or corn, where you can crossbreed plants and come up with a
       | new type that will "breed true" and then you can make a bunch of
       | seeds to distribute. Cultivation is basically growing a bunch of
       | trees, finding the right combo, then creating a bunch of them
       | 
       | So commercial growers with orchards will buy trees from breeders
       | who create that type of tree by managing the grafting/budding
       | process.
       | 
       | Apparently, though we don't know when breeding started, it's been
       | going on for thousands of years.
       | 
       | Also, Johnny Appleseed wasn't doing anyone favors by spreading
       | apple seeds everywhere because the trees would produce mostly
       | inedible apples.
       | 
       | 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple#Breeding
       | 
       | 2. https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/844-breeding-a-
       | new...
        
         | coopreme wrote:
         | Mr Appleseed was working his magic to plant a future for
         | delicious apple juice booze. They should've called him Cider
         | Claus.
        
       | bastloing wrote:
       | Really enjoy honeycrisp apples with caramel or chocolate coating!
       | Yummy!
        
       | dahart wrote:
       | Where can I find Red Delicious varieties from back when they were
       | considered good? I remembered them being fine/decent/whatever
       | when I was a kid, and recently just out of curiosity bought some
       | Red Delicious from a local grocery store and was surprised to
       | find they were completely inedible and totally disgusting. Like
       | not just less sweet or less tangy, but super gross and almost
       | like eating mushy plastic-wax wrapped in leather, and nothing
       | like what I remembered. It sounds like they actually have been
       | bred to be different now, so are there places that still have the
       | older variety?
        
         | pton_xd wrote:
         | Pretty sure they were always mealy and disgusting. I never
         | liked apples growing up because the only two options were
         | basically Red Delicious and Granny Smith. Maybe some Braeburn,
         | Fuji, and Galas now and then, none of which are particularly
         | good either. Honeycrisps really saved the fruit!
        
       | bbstats wrote:
       | Walmart honeycrisp in October was the best apple I've ever had
        
         | mastercheif wrote:
         | As someone who goes to Walmart once or twice a year, I too was
         | blown away with a Honeycrisp I bought from them a month ago.
        
       | kaydub wrote:
       | Best apples I've ever had were cosmic crisps I picked off the
       | tree.
        
       | dave333 wrote:
       | 60 years ago Cox's was by far my favorite apple for flavor but
       | they could get soft and mealy in storage. Gala is the closest
       | descendant that is much crisper and still has a lot of the Cox's
       | flavor. I've never liked crisp or acidic apples, except in
       | crumbles or pies where Granny Smith is my goto.
        
       | mring33621 wrote:
       | My family has been going to the same orchard in SW Michigan for
       | maybe 8 years in a row.
       | 
       | At first, they only had 2 rows of Honeycrisp apples. Maybe 2% of
       | the trees there...
       | 
       | Now more rows are 'Honeycrisp' than not. As far as I know, they
       | didn't replace all those previously 'not Honeycrisp' trees,
       | though.
       | 
       | And they taste like paint. Ugh.
        
       | NicOnHN wrote:
       | I'm curious if incorporating technology, like image analysis apps
       | (size, colour, quality), could help address some of these issues.
       | Any thoughts from any of the growers out there?
        
         | juju_hacker wrote:
         | I use this technology and have found it to be very accurate. I
         | use the TrueFruit product from a company named Aerobotics.
        
         | WARules wrote:
         | We have also been using TrueFruit. We manage tons of galas,
         | honeycrisps and fujis. Honeycrisps are still our majority but
         | fujis and galas are close
        
       | blindriver wrote:
       | Wow I thought I was the only one who thought this? My timeline
       | matches pretty close to the authors. I worked at a startup around
       | 2013 that had fruit deliveries, and I ate a honeycrisp apple
       | there for the first time in my life and I fell in love. Like the
       | author, I started eating those apples out of desire, not because
       | it was the only thing left.
       | 
       | But in the last 2 years, I didn't notice it, but I have been
       | pretty dissatisfied with them but I never really thought about it
       | until this article. It sheds light as to exactly why I don't like
       | it anymore, and that's pretty sad that the industry is getting
       | into that state.
        
       | wkirby wrote:
       | Cosmic crisp is the truth.
        
       | travisgriggs wrote:
       | Wow. Weird when something on HN hits this close to home. I work
       | in AgTech (automated irrigation) in Washington State. I can
       | attest to the love-hate boom-bust relationship this variety is
       | having with the Washington apple farmer.
       | 
       | The article leaves a key point out. This fruit tree is really
       | temperamental to water correctly. Irrigators love and hate this
       | thing. Some fruit bears overwatering gracefully. But with this
       | tree, it begs for water, but if you overwater it even a little,
       | the fruit fails easily. I've watched some big players (Pytech)
       | dump millions of dollars into closed (fully automated), open
       | (just telemetry and recommendation, human then waters) and hybrid
       | loop irrigation methods to try and get this right. It remains a
       | real pain to get right.
       | 
       | (edit: the cosmic crisp is also difficult to grow Just Right(tm))
        
         | ethbr1 wrote:
         | Conversely, what are the easiest Washington state apple
         | varieties to grow?
        
           | travisgriggs wrote:
           | Great question. I honestly don't know. Great example of how
           | "what people complain about" makes up a disproportionate
           | amount of our knowledge.
        
             | ethbr1 wrote:
             | The biased selection of only working on the problem side.
             | Been there.
        
             | easygenes wrote:
             | Can you list the varieties that you know of to be problems?
             | That at least gives a clue to which are less problematic.
        
           | drewcoo wrote:
           | https://treefruit.wsu.edu/web-article/apple-varieties/
        
         | windexh8er wrote:
         | Interesting!
         | 
         | I actually live in MN so am spoiled by the easy access to
         | quality varieties. Honeycrisp are so "common" here (grown here)
         | that I definitely avoid WA grown stock that seeps into grocery
         | stores more quickly than ever.
         | 
         | I currently have 4 apple trees on the property but have only
         | lived with apple trees for about the last 4 years now. I can't
         | even imagine getting the conditions for a Honeycrisp tree right
         | given the trees I have seem very temperamental. Last year
         | (summer of '23) was a horrible year for our trees due to the
         | summer long drought. Some of my trees are in irrigation zones
         | so they did get decent water, but still failed to yield much.
         | 
         | This year was bonkers. I clocked 34" of rain in my backyard and
         | all 4 trees had the highest yield so far. While these varieties
         | aren't as delicious as a freshly picked, ripe Honeycrisp,
         | they're still 1000x better than any mealy, soft apple from the
         | store that was picked 6+ months ago. The other thing with
         | Honeycrisp is that all of the local orchards have netting
         | protecting all the Honeycrisp because, since the skin is so
         | thin, they're highly susceptible to hail damage. They just seem
         | like too much work given I can buy them grown here.
         | 
         | Curious how long it will be before the automation is perfected?
         | Is this a normal cycle with a new breed of apple?
        
           | thelittleone wrote:
           | A property with apple trees (and space to grow more) is
           | seriously enviable. Hands in earth is one of my favorite
           | therapies. I've been contemplating a move for a few years and
           | this additional inspiration may just be the tipping point.
        
             | throwthrow4567 wrote:
             | the problem with trees is that it takes several years
             | before the first fruit, and the slightest problem with
             | weather will easily kill off all the season's batch...
             | otherwise even more than tempting than an orchard would be
             | an "edible forest"/"forest garden"
        
               | anon84873628 wrote:
               | On a small plot especially you want lots of diversity.
               | Plant many different species and varieties of fruit so
               | you have something to harvest all year long. (Trying to
               | preserve excess harvest can be fun at first but quickly
               | becomes a time consuming chore). Different shapes and
               | sizes of trees also allow you to partition the sunlight
               | and soil resource more efficiently.
        
             | positr0n wrote:
             | If you have some space but not a lot, look up "Backyard
             | Orchard Culture".
             | 
             | Practitioners have amazing yields with tiny 5' tall fruit
             | trees. I've seen some people do things that seem crazy like
             | 4 different trees in one planting hole and it works fine.
             | 
             | https://www.davewilson.com/home-garden/backyard-orchard-
             | cult...
        
         | segmondy wrote:
         | So how did we grow these decades ago when when we didn't have
         | this fancy irrigation systems?
        
           | anon84873628 wrote:
           | "We" only grew varieties that were less finicky, or only grew
           | them in climates to which they were adapted. We also had less
           | consolidation so failures were less systemic.
        
           | mplewis wrote:
           | For one, the honeycrisp is only three decades old.
        
             | foobarchu wrote:
             | 50 years old technically, 1991 just seems to be when it was
             | released to the public.
        
       | rcpt wrote:
       | Can anyone explain why tomatoes always suck now?
        
       | Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
       | So it seems that we get different apples in Europe and the US?
       | I'm from Spain and haven't even heard of Honeycrisp or Cosmic
       | Crisp.
       | 
       | Here, the common apples you can see in supermarkets are Golden
       | Delicious (called just Golden here), Royal Gala, Pink Lady, Fuji,
       | Pippin, Granny Smith, Red "Delicious", Kanzi, maybe a few more
       | than I'm forgetting, but no Honeycrisp or Cosmic Crisp as far as
       | I know.
        
         | throawayonthe wrote:
         | afaik almost all of those are available in the us/canada as
         | well
        
         | purplerabbit wrote:
         | Sounds like your market is a few years behind the US :)
         | 
         | Seriously, I hope you get honey/cosmic crisps -- they converted
         | me to buying apples regularly.
        
         | seabass-labrax wrote:
         | I feel that the choice is also limited in Britain, perhaps even
         | more so than in Spain. Independent greengrocers might have some
         | more unusual varieties than supermarkets, but I have never seen
         | Honeycrisp anywhere. Seems there could be a killing to be made
         | in importing them here, providing of course that they are the
         | 'marvel' and not the 'mediocre' ones!
         | 
         | If Honeycrisp are supposed to grow properly only in climates
         | like Minnesota's, then it doesn't seem likely that they will
         | ever actually be grown in Britain (or Spain for that matter).
        
           | Nursie wrote:
           | Britain grows over two thousand varieties of apple, some
           | going back several hundred years.
           | 
           | The issue is the supermarkets only carry a few types.
           | 
           | It would seem a shame to import a commercial variant from the
           | US.
        
       | lif wrote:
       | since folks are sharing favorites:
       | 
       | Red Astrachan ftw
       | 
       | (iykyk)
        
       | __turbobrew__ wrote:
       | I live in the Okanagan in British Columbia and the local
       | honeycrisp are still good here. I think the colder climate and
       | smaller scale farms here make for a better apple. We also have
       | long term storage facilities where the apples are stored in
       | nitrogen which really helps with freshness.
       | 
       | The local place I go to is straight from the grower and they have
       | a 24/7 cold storage facility of apple bins operated by the honour
       | system. All apples are $1 a pound.
       | 
       | Part of the issue here is that wineries have been historically
       | more profitable than orchards so there are many fewer places to
       | buy local fruit. In the past two years however, there has been
       | cold snaps which have killed 50% and 90% of grape vines
       | subsequently so people are starting to question the stability of
       | wineries.
        
       | davidu wrote:
       | This article doesn't explain why a hudson valley grown honeycrisp
       | would taste worse now than 10 years ago? Those are still coming
       | from the boutique farms where you can pick them off the tree. It
       | only explains why big apple in Washington is ruining the national
       | honeycrisp market. Or did I miss something?
        
       | etempleton wrote:
       | Honeycrisp apples are still great if you can find a local orchard
       | that sells them direct. From the grocery store they are a bit
       | more inconsistent and merely an upper tier Apple.
       | 
       | I suspect the popularity of honeycrisp will eventually lead it to
       | the same fate as Red Delicious, but only time will tell.
        
       | gammarator wrote:
       | The wide range of preferences expressed here makes me think that
       | the best apple is one grown near you--and different varieties are
       | better suited for different climate regions.
        
       | FpUser wrote:
       | Unfortunately I can confirm it. I was buying those like crazy but
       | not anymore. Their once incredible taste has gone.
        
       | irrational wrote:
       | > making it the state's fourth-largest cultivar after Red
       | Delicious, Gala, and Fuji.
       | 
       | Red Delicious has to be the nastiest apple cultivar in existence.
       | Why in the world are they growing that many? Replace them with
       | something decent like Pink Lady.
        
         | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
         | I really don't understand how anyone enjoys Red "Delicious".
         | They've got a thick, tough, waxy skin and the inside is a
         | tasteless mush with a horrible texture - how I imagine that
         | dandelion heads would taste like if you tried to eat a load of
         | them.
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | This proves there is always something better and people are never
       | happy. I myself is perfectly happy with Gala apples.
        
       | unnamed76ri wrote:
       | I've never understood the hype of honeycrisp. Sugarbees are my
       | first choice and if they aren't available I'll go with Fuji.
       | 
       | I've got an apple tree that I've grafted 20 varieties onto. But
       | honeycrisp isn't one of them.
        
       | Daneel_ wrote:
       | Are Envy apples a thing in the US? They're available here in
       | Australia and are light years better than everything else I've
       | ever had, at basically the same price point.
        
       | chaostheory wrote:
       | Fujis are great. They are consistently crisp AND sweet. None can
       | still compare, even the new varieties are lacking something that
       | a Fuji already has.
        
       | Blackthorn wrote:
       | Everyone is so obsessed with WA and MN apples that they miss out
       | on the good ones grown in New York, which used to be known for
       | its apples!
       | 
       | Shizukas can be grown here, which I strongly recommend. But
       | honestly most varieties you can get direct from a farm are edible
       | (except Red Delicious, which for some reason continues to be
       | grown even in independent farms even though it's universally
       | acknowledged to be trash).
        
       | addicted wrote:
       | If you're in the NorthEast try and get some Macoun (pronounced
       | Ma-cown) apples in the fall.
       | 
       | They spoil fast and don't transport well because the skin is
       | extremely thin, but those same qualities make them excellent
       | apples to eat.
       | 
       | Some ratings have them ranked a little lower because they aren't
       | very sweet but that's what I love about them. They taste like
       | apple. Not sugar. And the crisp/soft balance is awesome.
       | 
       | Edit: I read the apple rankings site which rates them very
       | poorly. But if you actually read the review the complaint is
       | about shelf life.
       | 
       | Read the comments where people have actually tasted it fresh and
       | most of the commenters consider it the best apple they've tasted.
       | But you gotta eat it freshly picked and/or as soon as you get it.
        
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