[HN Gopher] A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2...
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A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)
Author : 9dev
Score : 181 points
Date : 2024-11-28 14:33 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (121gigawatts.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (121gigawatts.org)
| user_james92 wrote:
| pretty cool graphs
| onionisafruit wrote:
| From the bottom of the page:
|
| > TL;DR: we can delete most of the emissions of the developed
| world today by switching heating & car and truck transport to
| electrical - if we make sure we generate all electricity with
| near-zero emissions. Just building more renewable generation
| won't solve it though, as you still need to make sure it covers
| all consumption everywhere. This map intends to show why that's a
| complicated problem, and why we should also be smart about where
| we build renewable generation so that most of the generated
| energy can also be used and not thrown away because the grid
| can't handle it.
|
| This is what I wonder about when I drive through West Texas and
| see massive wind farms in the middle of nowhere.
| skywal_l wrote:
| A little faster and clearer one in my opinion:
| https://app.electricitymaps.com/
| andix wrote:
| Copper Sushi doesn't load for me, but I'm wondering how it is
| going to beat the awesome electricitymaps. They have all the
| data and quite a good viewer.
| skagenpilot wrote:
| It shows a much finer grained representation of the whole
| transportation network. So you have much better idea of where
| is electricity produced and consumed within each country.
| When it comes to figuring out what the electricity mix is
| made of, electricitymaps is clearer.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| two different things; electricitymaps.com is a much more macro
| view, nice for looking at inter-country flows, whereas this one
| is great for looking at individual generation points and flows
| skagenpilot wrote:
| When looking at France, at a zoom level where one can see the
| whole country, all the green dots are located next to nuclear
| power plants. It's a good reminder that the french grid is mostly
| powered by nuclear.
|
| It'd be nice to see the same map over summer to see if the
| different electric mix then gives birth to a different map.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| if it wasn't for France having primarily used nuclear power
| decades ago, Europe as a whole would be in a much much worse
| state when it comes to CO2 emissions. That makes it abundantly
| clear that nuclear needs to be a part of the mix when it comes
| to non-emission generating energy production.
| briandear wrote:
| Any data on how much France has slowed the decrease of global
| temperatures? Is there a "nuclear power to degrees saved"
| converter?
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| someone could calculate the savings in CO2 emissions over
| all the power generated by nuclear energy each year in
| France, since the power stations were built, vs coal plants
| (which would have been the alternative at the time)
| palata wrote:
| I can't say if this question is asked in good faith.
|
| Pretty obviously it's better than what the other European
| countries have been doing.
| fsh wrote:
| France has 12% of Europe's population, and its primary energy
| is 45% from fossil fuels and 40% from nuclear power. The
| effect on Europe as a whole is therefore pretty small.
| realusername wrote:
| France is simultaneously one of the most populated
| countries in the EU and the of the top transitioned
| countries, it does make a difference
| thrance wrote:
| I think you included transportation in your stats: planes,
| cars, trucks and boats. The electrical mix in France
| includes only 8% from fossil fuels, of which 7% come from
| natural gas. The rest is mostly nuclear, hydroelectric,
| wind and solar. In that order.
|
| France also regularly sells its surplus to neighboring
| countries.
| masklinn wrote:
| > France also regularly sells its surplus to neighboring
| countries.
|
| And in order to do that it has pretty massive lines to
| neighbours meaning it also acts as an exchange platform
| (for a profit) e.g. if there are strong winds it can buy
| electricity from an oversupplied german grid and sell it
| to italy.
|
| https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/24h provides live
| views of the european electricity grids, and France is
| the only country which is consistently green (and often
| dark green aka under 50gCO2eq/kWh) without being blessed
| with enough hydro for most or all of its requirements (as
| Iceland and Norway are).
| elihu wrote:
| Interesting to see they have data for Russia now. I think
| that's new.
| fsh wrote:
| Most countries use way more primary energy for heating
| and transportation than for electricity generation. It
| would be disingenuous not to include this.
| RandomThoughts3 wrote:
| It's fairly disingenuous to mix both actually when they
| don't mingle. Especially when you consider that both
| heating and transportation are going in the direction of
| using more electricity which is actually favorable to the
| French choice.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| You're not counting the energy outflows from France to
| neighboring countries.
|
| Also, France gets 70% of its energy from nuclear, not 40%.
| moooo99 wrote:
| > Also, France gets 70% of its energy from nuclear, not
| 40%.
|
| No, it gets 70% of its electricity from nuclear.
| RandomThoughts3 wrote:
| Mixing electricity with transport and heating in a single
| metric is such a dishonest argument you have to be as
| intellectually bankrupt as an anti-nuclear ecologist to
| make it.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Not sure if that still holds true nowadays with renewable
| energy and storage having got cheaper and cheaper.
| realusername wrote:
| The result speaks for themselves, Germany still hasn't
| reached France 90s levels of emissions.
| pydry wrote:
| Energiewende didnt start in 1973, it was first authorized
| in late 2010.
|
| France's nuclear program was also very, very expensive: h
| ttps://www.i-sis.org.uk/The_True_Costs_of_French_Nuclear_
| Po...
| kergonath wrote:
| You can say whatever you want when discussion the cost of
| nuclear in France because of the structure of its nuclear
| industry. Part of it comes from the government's budget,
| so depending on your point of view it can be accounted
| for differently. Then, there are externalities
| (pollution, greenhouse gases, etc). And then there are
| strategic aspects and associated costs. The alternative
| in the 1970s was skyrocketing oil, which is much more
| costly at the planet's level, and was on track to be much
| more costly at the country's level as well. And in the
| meantime, consumers got reasonably cheap and clean
| electricity for decades.
|
| Skimming your source, I would not trust it very much.
| pydry wrote:
| >The alternative in the 1970s was skyrocketing oil
|
| They imported and still import just as much oil as anyone
| else.
| RandomThoughts3 wrote:
| They in fact import far less gas than Germany and let's
| not even look at coal.
| anton96 wrote:
| I have no clew how come the difference on what's usually
| said on this forum and the situation in Europe.My only
| understanding is that the US as whole is more sunny that
| gives a better ratio solar panel and produced
| electricity.
|
| Maybe also it's a provider thing ? From country to
| country, you can always have things that seem randomly
| more expensive. Germany is more renewable but more
| expensive than France, is it because of their national
| company is benefiting citizen properly or is it because
| the remaining gas part drives up the cost ?
| thrance wrote:
| Germany may use more renewables in volume, but it is
| absolutely dirtier than in France. Their electrical mix
| makes use of lots of natural gas and lignite coal, the
| worst kind, both expensive and very dirty.
| qayxc wrote:
| Compare to the PAST, not the present! As you can see, the
| trend is downwards and steadily at that:
| https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-
| Enterpris...
|
| Rome wasn't built in a day and I find it hilarious to
| advocate for nuclear power instead, if the average
| construction time (not even taking into account the prior
| mountain of bureaucracy) is over a decade. Not a single
| nuclear power plant built in past 15 years in Europe has
| been on time or on budget. Not even close.
| masklinn wrote:
| > As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at
| that
|
| Lignite numbers:
|
| 2019: 114TWh, 18.7%
|
| 2020: 92TWh, 16%
|
| 2021: 110TWh, 18.8%
|
| 2022: 116TWh, 20%
|
| 2023: 88TWh, 17%
|
| I've seen steadier terminal alcoholics.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Germany is more renewable but more expensive than
| France
|
| No, germany is more renewable but it's also more coal,
| any time there's no wind the coal plants start up. And
| they burn lignite (because that's what in germany e.g.
| that's what the Baggers strip mine).
|
| As a consequence, Germany's electricity emissions are
| absolute garbage:
| https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE/12mo
|
| It's not as bad as Poland which basically runs entirely
| off of coal, but it's absolutely at the bottom of the
| european barrel.
|
| Also electricity storage still isn't much of a thing (and
| while germany has two pumped hydro station they have very
| little capacity), so in periods of high winds germany
| actually pays its neighbours to take electricity off its
| grid so it doesn't collapse (at this point it has
| hundreds of hours of negative spot prices every year).
|
| Which is getting problematic because increase in wind
| generation in said neighbours means the issue is
| spreading as they too need to get rid of their wind
| production at those times.
| qayxc wrote:
| > No, germany is more renewable but it's also more coal,
| any time there's no wind the coal plants start up.
|
| Hm. The actual facts say otherwise, though:
| https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-
| Enterpris...
|
| So number go DOWN, not up, is what I'm seeing.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Hm. The actual facts say otherwise
|
| They don't.
|
| > So number go DOWN, not up, is what I'm seeing.
|
| The comment I replied to is comparing germany to france.
| The map I linked literally tells you that in 2024 Germany
| generated 370g CO2 equivalent per kWh, where France
| generated 32, that's an objective number you can straight
| up read.
|
| Yes Germany is 58% renewable versus France's 28
| (something the map also tells you), but then 30% are gas
| and especially coal, _the link you provide agrees with
| that_. Coal is _insanely_ polluting, especially because
| Germany mainly uses lignite which is the least energy
| rich coal (so even more emissions for the same
| production), coal represents >3/4th of its emissions.
|
| Meanwhile gas is a minor component of france's
| electricity mix (pretty much just peaking plants and a
| few combined cycle district heating plants) and coal is a
| rounding error.
| aziaziazi wrote:
| What storage are you referring too? I see residential ones
| in houses but absolutely nothing of state-scale, which is
| necessary to keep industries and services running.
|
| Materials used for current storage technologies are
| expected to see demand skyrocket. We're still to see the
| renewables going further than the residential proof of
| concept on a society scale.
|
| God bless plutonium.
| kieranmaine wrote:
| The CAISO (California Independent System Operator) grid
| is a good example of large scale battery use (1). Texas
| is also seeing a ramp up of battery storage (2).
|
| Whilst battery demand will increase it's expected costs
| will continue to decrease - "Innovation reduces total
| capital costs of battery storage by up to 40% in the
| power sector by 2030 in the Stated Policies Scenario"(3)
|
| 1. https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-11-27
| 2. https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-
| storage... 3. https://www.iea.org/reports/batteries-and-
| secure-energy-tran...
| barbazoo wrote:
| > Materials used for current storage technologies are
| expected to see demand skyrocket.
|
| We haven't even specified what kind of storage technology
| we're talking about yet you already state that "materials
| used for current storage technologies are expected to see
| demand skyrocket". Are you referring to batteries? There
| are countless other technologies to "store" energy.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Eh... plutonium? I think uranium is the usual choice.
|
| Home batteries can be part of a grid level response but
| this is nascent.
| rsynnott wrote:
| France, unusually, actually does, or at least did, use
| significant amounts of plutonium (a combo of
| decommissioned weapons and nuclear reprocessing output)
| in nuclear energy generation, but yeah, primarily
| uranium.
| kergonath wrote:
| New renewable installations are getting cheaper, but are
| still far from being numerous enough to overcome their
| terrible load factor and enable switching off some baseline
| production plants. And storage at a grid level is pretty
| much inexistant, except for a couple of pumped hydro
| plants.
|
| There is a significant mismatch between reality and the
| kind of headlines we see in tech-focused media. These hype
| future products as if they were already widely available,
| which creates a false idea of the actual situation in the
| real world.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Britain has switched off its coal plants.
|
| At least some of that is surely because of renewable
| power, mostly wind.
| p_l wrote:
| And because solar and wind power boost sales of gas
| turbine power plants that can spin fast enough to react
| for the wind and solar instability
| cynicalsecurity wrote:
| Russians taking notes.
| openrisk wrote:
| Thats why the more decentralized the more resilient. No single
| point of failure, redundancy in routing. Ahh, yes. just like
| the internet used to be :-)
| wongarsu wrote:
| If the Russians don't already have agents in most major power
| companies their intelligence service is slacking
| t55 wrote:
| Rendering could be more performant, but pretty graphs!
| fulafel wrote:
| The highlighted saturated links are a nice touch.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Meta: for those unfamiliar, 1.21 GW is a reference to the 1985
| movie _Back to the Future_. Clip of the scene in question:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDuZqYeNiOA
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_to_the_Future
|
| If you haven't seen it, the entire trilogy is worth checking out:
| very fun and quite family friendly.
| w-m wrote:
| If you are a regular HN reader who is (or was until this post)
| unfamiliar with Back to the Future, I'd love to know three more
| random facts about your life. In my world view, you are part of
| a fascinatingly small group of people.
| parhamn wrote:
| Part 3 came out in 1990. So, anyone born after (less than 34
| years old) who didn't bother to go back and watch it, would
| be sufficient? I'm familiar with the series' existence, but
| had no idea what 1.21 reference was. AMA, hah.
| irrational wrote:
| I have kids that are in their late 20s. They never watch
| older movies unless someone forces them to. There is so much
| new media coming out that they don't feel the need to watch
| older movies, even if everyone is telling them it is very
| good.
| wrboyce wrote:
| I've been on the BTTF ride at... wherever in Florida it is,
| and I loved that as a teenager. The films just never really
| appealed though for some reason. I guess one related fact
| would be I have a lot of gaps like that in the movies I have
| seen. For instance, people are often shocked that I've never
| see any of the Indiana Jones movies (also loved the rides!);
| but Star Wars I could probably recite the scripts of.
|
| I don't think I have any other facts that are very
| interesting, but then again I didn't think not having seen
| BTTF was all that interesting either. For the record I was
| familiar with 1.21GW and what it related to... I don't live
| under a rock!
| nakedneuron wrote:
| +2
| swatcoder wrote:
| Since the franchise hasn't been rebooted like so many others,
| it hasn't seem the $$$ marketing that would introduce it to
| new generations.
|
| Like The Princess Bride or Labyrinth, BTTF currently remains
| a phenomenom of the 80's and 90's -- familiar to most from
| that time and deeply treasured by some, but not refreshed and
| sustained the way the Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel/DC, etc
| brands have been.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| I thought they mean "jiggawatts" in the movie, i.e. more than
| bazzillion watts. Where do people pronounce gigawatts like
| that?
| hollerith wrote:
| On movie sets back when no one used "giga-" in daily
| conversation.
| seszett wrote:
| The French dub is famous (in France of course) for saying
| gigowatts.
|
| Giga just wasn't as commonly used an SI prefix as it is now I
| guess.
| CalRobert wrote:
| I'd love to normalise pronouncing gigabyte as jigabyte
| post-it wrote:
| Something I've wondered for a while: if the whole continent is on
| a synchronized grid, how can countries tell to or from whom
| they're exporting and importing electricity. I can see how they
| can measure their total imports or exports by comparing
| generation to consumption, but how do they figure out which
| neighbour they're getting electricity from / sending it to?
| Filligree wrote:
| By measuring current flows across the wires.
| dismalaf wrote:
| You don't. You guess based on generation, consumption and where
| the power lines are hooked up.
| Gud wrote:
| Absolutely false. Current flow is metered using current
| transformers.
|
| full disclosure: I install high voltage switchgear for a
| living.
| dismalaf wrote:
| Seeing current flow through switches isn't the same as
| seeing specifically where _your_ power is coming from.
|
| Like, if power from several different sources flows into a
| single substation before it goes to your home, you know
| exactly _which_ source created the electricity you 're
| using?
|
| And if I purchase power from a 100% renewable company, is
| it always only electricity from their generators, never
| ever mixed in with power from other grid sources during
| downtime?
|
| No, it's just best estimates based on generation,
| consumption and flow.
|
| That's like taking a bucket of water out of the ocean and
| saying you know where it came from. Sure, it might have
| come from the nearest estuary, but odds are it got mixed in
| with water that originated somewhere else.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Kirchoff's laws applies though. It should be possible to
| calculate where the power in your outlet comes from for
| the power line operators.
| fulafel wrote:
| Electricity transmission is a bit like water pressure and
| distribution. You're not going to get the same electrons
| (or water molecules) that you subscribed to from various
| producers in the distribution network put in, the flow
| causality and the physical embodiments of production are
| different though related things.
| cjrp wrote:
| Do you mean, for example, that the UK is importing energy from
| France, but where are they importing it from?
| skagenpilot wrote:
| There are five synchronous areas in Europe, the largest one
| being the synchronous grid of continental Europe [1].
|
| Each national grids has interconnections with other grids and
| you can measure the flow of power through these
| interconnections to know who is sending electricity or getting
| electricity from neighbours.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...
| fsh wrote:
| You can measure the flow of power by calculating the vector
| product of the current and voltage in the power line. EEVblog
| has a very good explanation video how this is done in an
| (analog) domestic watt-hour meter:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_3DXcB9-xE
| fulafel wrote:
| For completeness - that's just one grid included in this viz,
| for the map of the different european grids see:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...
|
| (Russia is another big chunk of Europe but not included in the
| above map, though I think it may be the same grid with the
| Baltics)
|
| For the question, measuring the flow of electricity is just
| normal power engineering, your home electricity meter does it
| as well. It's not so much the countries doing it though.
| markvdb wrote:
| The Baltics are disconnecting from the Soviet era BRELL grid
| with Russia and Belarus in two months [0].
|
| https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/baltic-countries-
| leave-...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Additional info: https://spectrum.ieee.org/baltic-power-
| grid
| locallost wrote:
| It's a fair question. Energy charts has both the physical flows
| and trading charts for Germany.
|
| E.g. trading https://www.energy-
| charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&...
|
| Physical flows https://www.energy-
| charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&...
|
| And it's not the same, so sometimes there is just "transit",
| although transit here should I guess be understood very
| loosely. I also assume they just know who paid for what.
|
| Edit: although upon re-reading I think you probably asked
| something else. Sorry in that case.
| coreyp_1 wrote:
| I get irrationally angry when a map is skewed in this way and
| there is no way to change it. The more you zoom in, the worse the
| distortion is made to be. Even zooming all the way out does not
| eliminate the angular distortion. This took actual effort on some
| programmer's part! Who ever thought that this is a good idea?!?
|
| It's like those navigational mini maps (car or computer game)
| that won't keep north pointing up... only worse.
| socksy wrote:
| Also got annoyed by this, but worked out pretty quickly that if
| you hold down right click and drag then you can change the
| angle
| _Microft wrote:
| You can also change the perspective by simultaneously holding
| the Ctrl key and moving the mouse.
| progval wrote:
| Or move the cursor while right-clicking.
| locallost wrote:
| Don't get angry so much over minor things, your older self will
| thank you. Somebody did something for free, gave it to you for
| free, and so they did not do a perfect job. There are worse
| things in life.
| ramon156 wrote:
| > we can delete most of the emissions of the developed world
| today by switching heating & car and truck transport to
| electrical
|
| Don't forget the fact that we need batteries to store the power,
| which is a much more annoying problem.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Heating and transport are the easiest in that regard. Most
| trucks drive during the day have the driver resting during the
| night. At night there's little demand, but wind and nuclear
| continue generating, so from a grid standpoint that's the
| perfect time to charge all the trucks. Cars can similarly be
| mostly charged during the night, as that's when they are at
| home. Heat demand is more variable, but heat is much easier to
| store than electricity itself. Everyone with a boiler already
| has a heat store at home. If you make the boiler a bit larger
| you can configure it to only heat when there's excess
| electricity (typically the night or at peak solar power around
| noon). And that's before you start with more efficient heat
| storage devices, like heating sand instead of water.
|
| All of those solutions require infrastructure investments and
| smarter grids (likely with real-time pricing to incentivize
| consumers to use power when there's an excess, and an API so
| devices like chargers and boilers can act on this information
| without user input). But they don't require power storage at
| the grid level.
| praveen9920 wrote:
| One observation I could make from the visualization is that major
| cities have very big power generation centers, despite that they
| seem to be drawing power from surrounding areas. It is very
| apparent near London. I guess it is obvious that bigger cities
| have more demand from both industrial and residential
| consumption.
| danbtl wrote:
| Was this made with a visualization library? Or is this custom
| code on top of Mapbox?
| hughes wrote:
| Hugged to death? Map is not loading.
|
| Edit: Loaded after a few refreshes. Slowness relates to loading
| static assets from coppersushi.herokuapp.com
| zwaps wrote:
| (German) offshore seems to be missing
| bschne wrote:
| Someone also set up a bunch of Graphana dashboards with European
| electricity data at https://energygraph.info/
| roschdal wrote:
| Don't share this map of the power grid, or the terrorists will
| use it to end us all.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| A map is not a territory.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Impressive - Norway and Sweden are exporting ~6GW right now with
| Finland throwing in for another GW.
|
| Probably contributing to the high percentage of EV sales. In
| Finland 90% of new vehicle sales are EVs. Sweden and Norway are
| at ~%60, and have a greater share of PHEVs.
|
| "EVs, they're gonna be a bloodbath" and "they don't work in the
| cold", indeed /s
|
| Never seems to occur to people that "I don't ever have to stand
| outside in the cold pumping gas into my car" and "I can have my
| car warmed up by the time I get in to go somewhere" are really
| popular features.
|
| Also, they didn't build out their EV charging infrastructure via
| legal settlement, leading to having chargers owned and operated
| by a company ambivalent about maintenance and repair.
|
| Europe as a whole is 24%, rising at a good clip. Also surprising
| is Romania - ahead of everyone except the Scandinavian countries
| and way, way ahead of all the former soviet states.
| hokkos wrote:
| My visualisation of physical flow between countries or zones, you
| can see the net flow with arrow of relative size and colors :
|
| https://energygraph.info/d/7dWs1mVVk/interconnect-physical-f...
| internet_points wrote:
| Is it missing hydroelectric?
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