[HN Gopher] Yes, it 'looks like a duck,' but carriers like the n...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Yes, it 'looks like a duck,' but carriers like the new USPS mail
       truck
        
       Author : vincentchau
       Score  : 91 points
       Date   : 2024-11-26 20:13 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
        
       | smitelli wrote:
       | Say what you will about the Grumman LLV, but every one of them
       | you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some
       | could be pushing 40. (The similar-looking Ford-Utilimaster FFV is
       | ~25 this year.) As uncomfortable as it must be to sit in one for
       | hours on end (I never had the privilege myself) you've got to
       | respect their longevity.
       | 
       | Here's hoping these new trucks make it to the 2050s and beyond.
        
         | hex4def6 wrote:
         | "While the all-aluminum body of the LLV has resisted corrosion
         | exceptionally well over the years, the main powertrain
         | components have been replaced multiple times and now must be
         | sourced through aftermarket manufacturing. This has
         | significantly increased repair costs while reducing performance
         | and reliability.
         | 
         | In fact, the Postal Service had to contract an alternative
         | supplier to reverse engineer and manufacture the chassis frame
         | to keep the LLV operational. As a result, the average annual
         | maintenance cost exceeds $5,000, with 7% of LLVs exceeding
         | $10,000 annually. Additionally, they are less fuel-efficient
         | and unsuitable for future delivery needs given projected
         | changes in market demand, mail mix, and increasing delivery
         | points.
         | 
         | The LLVs also lack modern safety features such as airbags,
         | anti-lock brakes, air conditioning, back-up cameras, blind-spot
         | warning systems, daytime running lights, and seatbelt
         | reminders."
         | https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pd...
         | 
         | Sort of a Ship of Theseus vehicle. Yes, some have lasted over
         | 40 years, but that's with potentially multiple drivetrain
         | replacements, at an annual maintenance cost of $5,000 -
         | $10,000. That feels high, given how simple those vehicles are.
        
           | varikin wrote:
           | I believe the LLV line was only suppose to be in service for
           | 20 years, but the government gonna government and not find a
           | replacement till it's almost too late. So yes it was a lot of
           | scrounging and probably a lot of USPS mechanics needing to be
           | creative, but the LLV lasted twice as long as it was designed
           | for. I expect this same conversation will happen again in
           | another 40 years.
        
             | not_kurt_godel wrote:
             | > the government gonna government and not find a
             | replacement till it's almost too late
             | 
             | Actually they were going to convert to EVs back in 2006
             | when Bush stepped in to prevent that and punish them on
             | behalf of his oil buddies with the Postal Accountability
             | and Enhancement Act. The problem isn't government, it's
             | politicians voted in to destroy it in favor of corporate
             | interests.
        
               | throwworhtthrow wrote:
               | According to Wikipedia:
               | 
               | > Passed the House on December 8, 2006 (voice vote)
               | 
               | > Passed the Senate on December 9, 2006 (unanimous
               | consent)
               | 
               | Can't pin it all on Bush Jr.
        
               | not_kurt_godel wrote:
               | > According to Tom Davis, the Bush administration
               | threatened to veto the legislation unless they added the
               | provision regarding funding the employee benefits in
               | advance with the objective of using that money to reduce
               | the federal deficit.
               | 
               | Bush was responsible for the provision that kneecapped
               | USPS to prevent them from ever funding their EV ambitions
               | (until Biden funded NGDV in 2022)
        
           | AdamJacobMuller wrote:
           | > manufacture the chassis frame
           | 
           | Ship of Theseus notwithstanding, at that point, isn't it a
           | new car if you're replacing the chassis?
        
         | whalesalad wrote:
         | From my desk at home I see the lil LLV come down our private
         | road every single day. With retrofitted LED lighting.
        
         | deciduously wrote:
         | Constantly starting and stopping, too, in a variety of
         | temperatures.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | I'm pretty sure the enemy of vehicle longevity isn't design,
         | but parts supply.
         | 
         | The crown victoria could have kept on supplying police
         | departments for another decade or two if ford didn't
         | discontinue it.
        
         | mmooss wrote:
         | > every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30
         | years old, and some could be pushing 40.
         | 
         | Survivor bias: The ones you see are the ones that have
         | survived. You don't see the junkyards full of failed trucks.
        
       | kaveet wrote:
       | http://archive.today/Mcwu5
        
       | postoplust wrote:
       | The seat height in the banner image looks too tall for the
       | mailboxes. I wonder how the seat height in the NGDV compares to
       | the Grumman LLV.
        
       | garciansmith wrote:
       | I've read so much knocking their appearance, which is so
       | confusing to me. It's ultimately function over form in this case;
       | who cares if you don't like how it looks? I can only dream that
       | the visibility and safety of having features like such a low hood
       | and large bumpers would be incorporated into other vehicles
       | (i.e., every SUV ever).
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | > It's ultimately form over function in this case
         | 
         | Doesn't "form over function" mean the opposite of your usage?
         | 
         | Form = appearance
         | 
         | Function = usefulness
        
           | PittleyDunkin wrote:
           | I took this to mean that critiquing appearance is itself form
           | over function.
        
             | tantalor wrote:
             | Oh. What does that even mean? Saying something is "form
             | over function" is not derogatory. Lots of great inventions
             | prioritize form over function (iPod comes to mind).
        
               | phil21 wrote:
               | iPod was famously both though? The click-wheel was pretty
               | unique and worked great to make an accessible UIx for the
               | masses.
               | 
               | It may have been somewhat limiting in edge cases, but for
               | normal usage I don't recall anyone complaining about it
               | outside of hardcore tech circles.
        
               | tantalor wrote:
               | "No wireless? Less space than a Nomad? Lame"
               | 
               | Seriously though, the iTunes integration and cross
               | platform compatibility kind of sucked. It would have been
               | much more useful if you could just mount it like a hard
               | drive without special library management software.
               | 
               | The click wheel was cool.
        
               | PittleyDunkin wrote:
               | > Seriously though, the iTunes integration and cross
               | platform compatibility kind of sucked. It would have been
               | much more useful if you could just mount it like a hard
               | drive without special library management software.
               | 
               | I very much preferred this, actually. file management is
               | really annoying compared to custom-built software with
               | all the tagging etc built-in. Subjective, obviously, but
               | I really miss that every time I'm managing music on linux
               | or windows and get frustrated when labeling invariably
               | changes (even if only subtly) when moved to a device.
               | 
               | Granted, itunes could have also done a much better of
               | unifying the tagging etc with the files to avoid this
               | entire fiasco.
        
               | VogonPoetry wrote:
               | I think that making the iPod mount like a filesystem
               | would have had significant impact on other aspects of the
               | device.
               | 
               | There is no filesystem level abstraction over USB (or
               | Firewire). So plugging in presents as a hard drive /
               | block device, which then means it needs to have a
               | filesystem. For "built-in" cross OS compatibility that
               | means it would be have to be a FAT filesystem. If you
               | change these decisions either a new filesystem or device
               | driver would need to be installed for some machines.
               | 
               | Most devices that present a FAT filesystem when plugged
               | in stop working like they do when unplugged. i.e. the
               | device itself and the connected computer cannot access
               | the data at the same time. For the iPod this would mean
               | it wouldn't be possible to play music while syncing.
               | 
               | I think it might be possible to build a "fake" drive and
               | FAT filesystem when plugged in, but it would take quite a
               | bit of work and have lots of odd corner cases. For
               | example, the user on the computer attempting to re-format
               | the drive, perhaps with a different filesystem.
        
               | bdavbdav wrote:
               | I'm not convinced the iPod was. Everything else was
               | pretty terrible at that time. The iPod did it right (and
               | arguably still does)
        
           | garciansmith wrote:
           | Yes, I just reversed it by mistake!
        
           | jackcosgrove wrote:
           | I think it's a misquote of the phrase "Form ever follows
           | function", commonly attributed to architect Louis Sullivan.
           | It's an odd sentence structure, where the leader comes second
           | in the phrasing, that trips people up.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | for utilitarian purposes, like the guy was quoted "it gets the
         | job done", but for soccer moms and their SUV looks are
         | important.
        
           | bryanlarsen wrote:
           | Safety should be even more important than both, but it
           | obviously isn't since only the USPS trucks have a pedestrian
           | safe design.
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | If safety were more important than looks, the stilleto
             | would be banned.
        
         | klik99 wrote:
         | Probably in the minority, but I actually like the look of them.
         | I find so many modern car designs indistinguishable from each
         | other. Cars such a narrow range of design that's considered
         | "good aesthetics" that everything looks so uniform.
        
           | m463 wrote:
           | I think when it comes to vans they've kind of let go of
           | traditional designs.
           | 
           | like
           | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Dodge-
           | Ra...
           | 
           | Now they've gotten the european influence to be very square:
           | 
           | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/2015_For.
           | ..
           | 
           | or like the european designed mercedes sprinter, very tall
           | too:
           | 
           | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Mercedes.
           | ..
        
             | laurencerowe wrote:
             | The European equivalents to the Dodge Ram Van are the
             | smaller Transit Custom or VW Transporter
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit_Custom
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Transporter
             | 
             | The equivalent US trucks mostly used by FedEx and UPS are
             | much squarer than the European designed Transit or Sprinter
             | vans that are now replacing them.
             | 
             | https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FedEx_Express_truck
             | ....
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | > Cars such a narrow range of design that's considered "good
           | aesthetics" that everything looks so uniform.
           | 
           | The issue is fuel efficiency. Modern cars are all built to be
           | as aerodynamic and fuel efficient as possible, and the
           | constraints are virtually the same, so the designs are very
           | similar as well.
           | 
           | However, these mail trucks don't travel 85 miles an hour,
           | most of them will be on average less than 25 mp/h or less,
           | where aerodynamics plainly just does not matter (it's
           | v-squared), so they can prioritize safety and driver comfort
           | over anything else.
        
           | Oarch wrote:
           | Like wet putty
           | 
           | https://www.blackbirdspyplane.com/p/why-do-new-cars-look-
           | lik...
        
         | duskwuff wrote:
         | > I've read so much knocking their appearance, which is so
         | confusing to me.
         | 
         | Especially since the old LLVs were pretty ugly in their own
         | way. We've just gotten used to seeing them over the last 38
         | years.
        
         | andrewflnr wrote:
         | Well, they're mostly not qualified to comment on the function,
         | are they?
        
         | stackedinserter wrote:
         | Would you wear the same cloths but in clown colours?
        
         | techjamie wrote:
         | The low hood is almost definitely to help prevent scraping
         | mailboxes and other objects, but especially mailboxes. My dad
         | was a rural USPS carrier that used his own vehicle, and despite
         | him having been an excellent driver with no accidents on record
         | in his life, he still ended up swapping minor paint with
         | mailboxes a few times.
         | 
         | Can't imagine how often it happens across the country.
        
       | pearlsontheroad wrote:
       | I'm proud to have helped implement the brand new dedicated ERP
       | system that is used to build these trucks. Nice to see the final
       | product is hitting the streets.
        
         | bnc319 wrote:
         | Can you provide some more information as to what the ERP system
         | is built on? (i.e. open source software, "from scratch", etc?)
        
           | pearlsontheroad wrote:
           | Latest Oracle JDE E1
        
         | mmooss wrote:
         | I think you owe us some information to satisfy 'intellectual
         | curiosity'! :)
         | 
         | I'll start: Why did they create a brand-new and why a dedicated
         | ERP system? Didn't the manufacturer have an ERP system used for
         | manufacturing other vehicles?
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | I don't mind the appearance if it serves a function, but what's
       | the function? An electric truck wouldn't need a traditional
       | engine compartment.
        
         | capital_guy wrote:
         | A crumple zone?
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | i guess they could have made it flat nosed like a bus?? are
         | they putting the batteries in the nose? it looks like the cargo
         | part is too low for them to be placed under there. also, gotta
         | put that ac somewhere. probably makes it easier to work on
         | under the little hood than having to climb on top of the truck.
        
         | varikin wrote:
         | According to Wikipedia[1]:
         | 
         | > Four variants of the NGDV are expected to be in fleet use:
         | both gasoline-powered and battery-electric, in either front
         | wheel drive or all wheel drive.
         | 
         | So I expect the front hood is for the gas powered engine for
         | those variants. Further down, it talks about only 10% will be
         | EV at the start due to cost. Also, this is in partnership with
         | Ford so the ICE power train is the from the Ford Transit van.
         | 
         | [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV
        
         | fencepost wrote:
         | They aren't/weren't all going to be EVs. Originally the USPS
         | was looking at 10% EVs and 90% internal combustion but there
         | were a bunch of challenges to that (including that ratio being
         | based on incorrect environmental impact data). Now it's 75% EVs
         | in the first order of 60,000 and future orders may be that high
         | or higher (currently expected that it will be all EVs starting
         | in 2026).
         | 
         | sources: article and wikipedia
         | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV)
        
         | agent281 wrote:
         | One benefit of a low hood is that it scoops up pedestrians that
         | might get hit instead of hitting their torsos with the vehicle.
         | It'll probably break your legs, but you are more likely to
         | survive.
         | 
         | This is one of the reasons that SUVs and large trucks are
         | deadly: it's basically hitting you directly in the chest
         | cavity.
        
           | Workaccount2 wrote:
           | Few things are more masculine than mowing down pedestrians
           | with a pseudo diesel locomotive.
        
       | fencepost wrote:
       | How could they _not_ love them in comparison to the 30+ year old
       | vehicles they 've been driving?
        
         | rectang wrote:
         | Cultural hostility among a subpopulation to electric vehicles
         | as "woke"? Ordinary sentimentality and the natural human
         | discomfort with change?
        
           | fencepost wrote:
           | I have great faith in the ability of _ahem_ some individuals
           | to harm themselves out of spite or inability to recognize
           | inbound leopards, but I 'm pretty sure that even those would
           | find the new vehicles to be an improvement even if they're
           | EVs - at least if they're actually driving the old and new
           | vehicles.
        
       | schiffern wrote:
       | Yes, It 'Looks Like a Duck,' but...
       | 
       | ...but that means it's far safer for pedestrians than the
       | currently-in-vogue "bulldozer" vehicle front ends.
       | 
       | I for one welcome our new duck-shaped overlords.
        
         | matsemann wrote:
         | Direct Vision Standards[0] should implemented as a mandatory
         | requirement everywhere for large vehicles traveling in cities
         | or residential areas where there's "soft road users"[1]
         | (pedestrians, cyclists). Should be able to see straight to the
         | side and know you're not running someone over.
         | 
         | [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Vision_Standard
         | [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorist
        
           | morsch wrote:
           | I was squeezing by in front of a modern garbage truck this
           | morning that basically had a glass side door. It was great: I
           | could actually establish eye contact with the driver and sign
           | that I was going to drive in front of him and he could give
           | me small wave to go ahead. The driver of a less modern truck
           | would have had no way at all to see me, much less communicate
           | with me.
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | Interesting that the front windshield only has about 50-60%
       | usable space. On the top this makes sense, as the black coating
       | acts as a sun shade. On the bottom... there goes all the
       | visibility gained by having the low hood. wtf?
       | 
       | The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC
       | controls.
        
         | ceejayoz wrote:
         | The final photo in the article appears to show pretty good
         | forward visiblity. Seems fine?
        
         | jacobgkau wrote:
         | > On the bottom... there goes all the visibility gained by
         | having the low hood. wtf?
         | 
         | That is a little weird, now that I look at it again. But the
         | way you'd use the rest of that bottom space would be by
         | lowering the driver, basically, and that would mean the
         | driver's not as high up over the hood. So maybe getting the
         | higher angle gains more visibility than having them sit lower
         | just to maximize usable windshield area? (The only way you
         | could have both is if the dashboard was transparent.)
        
         | cooljoseph wrote:
         | The camera is positioned so that the side window is visible
         | through the front windshield. I think the "black coating" you
         | are seeing is just the interior of the van, and that the entire
         | front windshield is usable.
        
         | starkparker wrote:
         | > The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC
         | controls.
         | 
         | Ford supplies the ICE engine, transmission, suspension,
         | steering wheel, and instrument cluster, so that tracks.
         | https://fordauthority.com/2024/10/new-usps-mail-carrier-uses...
        
         | justsomehnguy wrote:
         | My $5 it's the usual 'too late to change'. Compare with the
         | 2021 version.
         | 
         | Also the if you trace LoS in the cabin pic in the article you
         | would find what the driver wouldn't see more of the hood
         | because he need to be sat quite a lot higher (up to 20cm I
         | think) to gain the view you are thinking of. And this is
         | incompatible with 'do the mailman thing without getting out of
         | chair'.
         | 
         | https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/may-2021/do...
        
       | hoherd wrote:
       | This is great news! The design is interesting though. Why would
       | they choose such a hard angle for the hood and windshield vs
       | something more gentle? Does anybody know why they made that
       | design choice?
        
       | fatboy wrote:
       | After driving a new Mercedes Vito (I can't describe how insane
       | the controls of this vehicle are, but it has capacitive-touch
       | buttons that you have to swipe to change the stereo volume ON THE
       | STEERING WHEEL), I long for controls that look like this:
       | 
       | https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-m...
        
         | unethical_ban wrote:
         | Tactile controls should be the default. I was actually
         | interested in the Lincoln Corsair until I saw how much they
         | rely on touch - even for things like the climate control, same
         | as the Teslas. Instantly took it off the list.
        
           | silisili wrote:
           | That's why I won't even consider a Tesla. Test drove a few
           | vehicles and it's amazing how many do touch screen everything
           | now. Will -not- buy.
           | 
           | The one I ended up buying is all tactile except changing the
           | radio stations. Even that gets really annoying, as you have
           | to take your eyes off the road to change stations. I end up
           | just poking it in random places blind until something
           | happens.
        
       | stanski wrote:
       | Reminds me of the Pilatus PC-6. Another ugly duckling (in some
       | people's eyes) that's a workhorse.
        
       | AcerbicZero wrote:
       | lol they're paying (with my money) something like 60k for each
       | one of those.
       | 
       | Should have just bought police explorers like the cops are
       | driving and saved 15-20k+ per unit. Plus as a bonus you might
       | have actual parts availability for the foreseeable future, unlike
       | when Oshkosh corp decides burning money in a barrel is more
       | financially viable than building replacement parts for the postal
       | service and the 40-70k of these that they'll actually get ordered
       | before the budget gets slashed or whatever.
        
       | imp0cat wrote:
       | Needs just one thing - light blue paintjob with an orange beak
       | and a tiny purple hat. ;)
        
       | ggreer wrote:
       | I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial vehicles
       | instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that commercial
       | vehicles are more capable while being significantly cheaper.
       | 
       | NGDVs cost $60,000 each, and that's for half of them being ICE
       | vehicles and half EVs with a 70 mile range (35 miles if you use
       | the heater). The ICE version gets 14.7 miles per gallon (8.6mpg
       | if you turn on the air conditioning).[1] There is no hybrid
       | version, which is outrageous considering the expected driving
       | profile.
       | 
       | For comparison, a Mercedes eSprinter (which has more cargo
       | capacity and >2x the range of the NGDV) starts at $63,475 MSRP.
       | I'm sure a bulk order of 50,000 would get a significant discount.
       | 
       | This whole project seems to be a handout to a defense contractor,
       | not an efficient use of funds.
       | 
       | 1.
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV#Fuel_economy_and_...
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial
         | vehicles instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that
         | commercial vehicles are more capable while being significantly
         | cheaper.
         | 
         | Commercial vehicles in fleets are leased - they last anywhere
         | from 2-5 years then they're pushed off to the used vehicle
         | market. After 10-15 years they're so done that they'll end up
         | on the scrap yard or shipped off to Africa or Asia. On top of
         | that they're designed to be aerodynamic at highway speeds
         | because they'll spend a lot of their life time on such streets
         | and speeds, whereas these postal trucks will spend most of
         | their time moving like snails.
         | 
         | These USPS tanks in contrast are expected to last 30, 40 years
         | like their predecessors, racking up insane mileage... and while
         | no one cares if some underpaid gig worker runs over some child
         | because the child happened to be in the dead spot of his
         | vehicle, if the same happens to USPS the government itself is
         | the target for a nice juicy lawsuit. So it makes sense for a
         | custom order at that scale and expected life time, and it also
         | makes sense to stray from what the market has to offer because
         | the requirements are different.
         | 
         | Oh, and commercial delivery doesn't have to take care about its
         | workers. They'll get burned out with their backs and joints
         | ruined, but the companies don't have to pay a dime. In
         | contrast, USPS is a government agency and has a massive
         | financial incentive to keep healthcare costs low.
        
         | greenthrow wrote:
         | As usual when you take a dismissive stance ("this is obviously
         | a waste of money!") you are ignoring lots od details. The use
         | case of a mail carrier is not well suited by a massive
         | eSprinter. They have no need for something so large. They want
         | to be seated at the height where most mailboxes are so they can
         | make many deliveries without getting out of the car.
         | 
         | Whenever you find yourself going "why would they make THAT
         | decision?" assume it is yourself that is ignorant and take it
         | as an opportunity to learn, rather than dismiss the choices of
         | people who specialize in the area you are puzzled by.
        
           | ggreer wrote:
           | I used the eSprinter as one example, not the only option.
           | Maybe something like the Ford eTransit or the Rivian EDV is a
           | better fit for postal deliveries. My point is that other
           | delivery companies and postal services use commercial
           | vehicles, most likely because that's the most cost-effective
           | option.
           | 
           | Considering the NGDV's atrocious efficiency, lack of hybrid
           | option, and high unit costs, it seems far more likely that
           | this is a pork project for a defense contractor than that
           | everyone else is doing it wrong.
        
             | unethical_ban wrote:
             | Is it inefficient? Would it be more worthy to have two
             | chassis designs, one for ICE and one for EV, to make it
             | more efficient for the gas version? Would any hybrid
             | drivetrain provide higher efficiency for similar build
             | costs on the same chassis?
             | 
             | My point would be that they weighed a lot of design
             | considerations and I assume this is the best they could get
             | that meets all of them. Like others said, other commercial
             | delivery vehicles don't have the same use case as this. Who
             | cares about range when the use case for this vehicle is ~20
             | miles a day?
             | 
             | Everyone else isn't "doing it wrong", they're doing it
             | differently, for different needs.
        
         | KK7NIL wrote:
         | Did you not read the article?
         | 
         | The NGDVs aren't Sprinter vans, they're purpose made mail
         | delivery vehicles, with ergonomics and cargo space setup for
         | that, which makes a massive difference for the drivers,
         | especially when it comes to repetitive motion injuries, which
         | is a huge cost for USPS.
         | 
         | Amazon went away from commercial vans to purpose made vehicles
         | built by Rivian for many of the same reasons and they've been
         | widely praised by the drivers.
        
           | ggreer wrote:
           | The Rivian vans are commercially available.[1] Like the NGDV,
           | they have a side door and an 80 inch interior height so that
           | nobody has to stoop while in the cargo bay.
           | 
           | 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivian_EDV
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | UPS brown trucks (they call them "cars" internally) are also
           | custom made. They don't even resell them when they are at EOL
           | they crush them.
        
         | chomp wrote:
         | How in the world is a mail carrier going to deliver mail in a
         | huge esprinter, you going to have them open their door and
         | climb out at every mailbox?
        
           | ggreer wrote:
           | My point was that a much more capable vehicle could be
           | purchased for a similar price. Depending on the use case, of
           | course other commercial vehicles would make more sense. The
           | smaller versions of the Ford Transit are a popular option
           | among non-US postal services. And if US Postal Service was
           | willing to buy foreign vehicles, they could have even smaller
           | and cheaper options. (Though they'd have to deal with EPA and
           | NHTSA rules to make them street legal.)
        
             | mmooss wrote:
             | > My point was that a much more capable vehicle could be
             | purchased for a similar price.
             | 
             | This leaps to a conclusion. Probably the documents are
             | public - why did they chose this solution over off-the-
             | shelf options? (No point in speculation; what is their
             | actual analysis?)
        
         | saltminer wrote:
         | One key difference between USPS and UPS/Fedex is that USPS does
         | not do freight, and they do a lot more lightweight items (i.e.
         | letters), so cargo capacity is much less of a concern. The fact
         | that junk mail is so common actually reduces the need for cargo
         | capacity since their routes tend to be made long not because of
         | physical volume/distance so much as dwell time (that is, if
         | someone is using EDDM[0] to target a neighborhood, you have to
         | stop at _every_ mailbox in that neighborhood, even if it 's
         | just to deliver that one piece of junk mail which will
         | immediately get thrown away, and this takes far more time than
         | delivering a bundle of packages to a handful of houses).
         | 
         | I remember reading about the NGDV, and one of the reasons it
         | looks so weird is because USPS wanted a vehicle that was low to
         | the ground (to make it easier to climb in and out of) and easy
         | to see over the hood, even for very short drivers[1]. Given
         | that they are in residential areas (and thus, in proximity of
         | kids playing outside) far more often than UPS/Fedex, I can't
         | say I disagree with that requirement. (Also, if you have a tall
         | truck like UPS and Fedex typically roll, good luck delivering
         | to the average mailbox while staying in your seat.)
         | 
         | USPS has certainly evaluated more traditional designs; in fact,
         | they are actively using ~20k Ram ProMasters (a rebadged Fiat
         | Ducato), which are quite similar to the Mercedes Sprinter,
         | alongside ~9k mini vans[2].
         | 
         | [0]: https://www.usps.com/business/every-door-direct-mail.htm
         | 
         | [1]: https://x.com/Nir_Kahn/status/1364465483911675905
         | 
         | [2]:
         | https://www.uspsoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2023-01/...
         | (PDF page 6)
        
           | bigstrat2003 wrote:
           | > Given that they are in residential areas (and thus, in
           | proximity of kids playing outside) far more often than
           | UPS/Fedex...
           | 
           | That isn't the case at all in my experience. In any
           | neighborhood I've ever lived in, you see at least one van
           | from each organization come through daily. And if anything,
           | UPS and FedEx come through more than once per day sometimes,
           | whereas USPS doesn't.
           | 
           | Per your earlier point about freight I can imagine that
           | UPS/FedEx have a lower percentage of company traffic in
           | residential areas than USPS does. But I find it difficult to
           | imagine that the total number of trips to residential areas
           | is lower for them. They simply have more non-residential
           | traffic than USPS, not less residential traffic.
        
       | hiccuphippo wrote:
       | According to this video[0] the shape is because there's a
       | requirement for 95th percentile males to be able to stand up
       | inside and the front is low for 5th percentile females to be able
       | to see a specific distance in front of the hood. The shape makes
       | perfect sense.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6z4QvtQL8
        
       | juunpp wrote:
       | I thought it was going to be about duck typing.
        
       | yongjik wrote:
       | Honestly I think it looks great - the design screams "I care for
       | pedestrian safety" and "I'm a nice person, and I don't need to
       | compensate for anything, because I have great sex life."
        
       | whatio wrote:
       | It was designed with the person who will operate it in mind and
       | it's made in the USA. That means it looks fantastic to me.
        
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