[HN Gopher] New study shows: EV batteries last much longer than ...
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New study shows: EV batteries last much longer than expected
Author : kungfudoi
Score : 45 points
Date : 2024-11-24 17:05 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.electrive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.electrive.com)
| gnabgib wrote:
| Discussion (33 points, 3 days ago, 14 comments)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42207110
| ivewonyoung wrote:
| This was always "expected" by people in the know ever since the
| Model S came out in 2012 and there was real world data on cars
| with 100K+ miles.
|
| Didn't stop the oil lobby anti-EV myths from spreading far and
| wide. And now both political factions hate EVs so expect even
| more people to continue to think batteries die in a few years.
|
| EV companies wouldn't be warranting the battery degradation for
| hundreds of thousands of miles and several years if batteries
| died easily.
| recursive wrote:
| > And now both political factions hate EVs
|
| A significant fraction of people have now actually driven them.
| It's going to be increasingly tough to tell spooky stories
| about EVs when your neighbor/friend/coworker has been driving
| one uneventfully for 4 years.
| bdangubic wrote:
| 2014 Tesla S, 80k miles, battery still getting me 230 range -
| not too much drop off.
|
| 99% of charges are at supercharger (which is also not supposed
| to be good for the battery)
| Panzer04 wrote:
| This has always been true for anyone who knows anything.
| Batteries rapidly deteriorate from 100%, but the degradation gets
| slower the more capacity has already been lost.
|
| Even for consumer devices, battery aging and capacity loss is
| very slow after 70%, and they are exposed to much harsher
| conditions than EVs (no temp control, daily full cycling, etc).
| ivewonyoung wrote:
| > This has always been true for anyone who knows anything
|
| Not sure that's true. I have seen comments on HN multiple times
| over the years claiming batteries die in a few years and were
| almost never downvoted.
| voussoir wrote:
| This might not be quite as strong a rebuttal as you were
| hoping for!
| throwaway290 wrote:
| HN downvotes are not signal for truth, just popularity.
| TexanFeller wrote:
| Very slow degradation after reaching 70% capacity is cold
| comfort when EV batteries are barely adequate for many people
| at 100%. EVs typically start with ~300mi range. 70% of that is
| 210mi. I live in the city, but my parents live ~150mi away from
| the city along a route that has zero superchargers and only a
| handful of slow chargers along the way. I couldn't even visit
| my parents reasonably on a single charge, therefore my next
| car(s) will be a hybrid. Hybrid sedans can give me the
| traditional ~600mi range so I can drive from Austin to Ft.
| Worth and back before filling up a small tank.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| Hybrids are great. If they had slightly larger battery range
| (50ish miles), I'd probably go that route myself. More people
| should probably be choosing them.
|
| But I think that the situation you are posing: quasi
| regularly driving a trip that is >100 miles with no ability
| to charge at all is actually pretty uncommon. And even in
| your case, since you are driving that far (and visiting
| family), I assume you are staying overnight. You can get a
| portable lvl 2 charger for a couple hundred bucks that will
| plug into a dryer plug and charge your vehicle back to full
| overnight. (admittedly. this assumes the drive is in ideal
| conditions and you get the full 210 miles; given where you
| are going and the apparently lack of infrastructure, if this
| is mountainous at all, then yeah....very well might not make
| it)
|
| To me, the issue that actually affects more people is that if
| you need a family sized vehicle, your options are A) pretty
| limited and B) almost all >$60,000. For a single person, or a
| childless couple, EVs are pretty accessible, for families,
| that's much less true.
| lukevp wrote:
| There is a ton of infrastructure between Austin and Ft.
| Worth, it's almost a contiguous city at this point. And
| there are no mountains in the vast majority of Texas, it's
| very flat. There are a lot of chargers on that route, not
| sure what OP is talking about.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| I totally missed that they had actually specified the
| route, and was just commenting on a generic one (which is
| why I guess it might be mountainous, definitely places in
| the West where you can drive >100 miles without charging
| infrastructure....just also not many people to visit).
| vel0city wrote:
| As someone with two kids, a Model Y or a Mach E are very
| reasonable vehicles for a family. Both are under $60k.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| That's fair. I was basically taking my family's "worst
| case" scenario (10+ hour drive, 2 kids, 2 dogs, +
| luggage) and assuming that was typical, when in actuality
| that's probably as rare a situation as the one I was
| replying to. We can, just barely, make our current
| vehicle + roofrack work with 1 kid and 2 dogs when we
| visit my parents, but since we are planning a second kid,
| we are looking around for something larger.
|
| For anyone not trying do to both kids + dogs, there are
| probably a lot more options.
| lukevp wrote:
| Temple Buccees has a supercharger, as do many other places.
| Still, Texas is not a great place for EVs. Everything's so
| far apart. Instead of a Hybrid, how about a PHEV or an EV
| with a range extender? The problem with hybrids is they have
| all of the complexity of an ICE as their main drivetrain,
| whereas an EV drivetrain is much simpler, more powerful and
| more reliable. If you can get a vehicle where the gas /
| diesel is just there as a power plant for the EV, you get the
| best of all worlds, plus the gas engine can run at peak
| efficiency which gives you better fuel economy and if the ICE
| has issues you can still drive with just the EV part.
| gambiting wrote:
| We have a Volkswagen e-Up with a max range of maybe 150
| miles, we drive it every day with longer trips on the
| weekends and I literally never even had to charge it outside
| of home in the few years I owned it.
|
| Not everyone's use case is the same.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Even for consumer devices, battery aging and capacity loss is
| very slow after 70%,
|
| My laptop, power tools and iphone beg to differ....
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| It's unexpected because batteries are rated based on full
| charge/discharge cycles.
|
| But in reality it's comparatively very rare for those full cycles
| to happen. People overwhelming drive <40 miles a day and top off
| the battery regularly.
| davedunkin wrote:
| How can I get my Nissan Leaf to read this paper? Its range has
| dropped to 50% of new and a refurbished replacement pack cost
| 150% the value of the car, which is in otherwise excellent
| condition. It has only 70k miles.
| pcdoodle wrote:
| Since the Leaf has a smaller battery, it get's more wear and
| tear per trip.
| Astronaut3315 wrote:
| It also lacks active thermal management. That's more or less
| a requirement for long battery life.
| cowmix wrote:
| THIS. The ARIYA is the first EV they've widely released
| (last year) with any active thermal management. I live in
| AZ, and all my friends with Leaf's all have had to have
| their batteries replaced at least once.
|
| All my Chevy based EV/PHEVs have had great battery life (so
| far) - knock on wood.
| BonoboIO wrote:
| I think this is the answer. That is also a problem for hybrid
| powers vehicles, the battery is small and it gets charged and
| discharged 0-100 / 100-0 very often, if you use the hybrid as
| intended.
|
| Some manufacturers limit this, but in a few years we will see
| a lot of hybrids that have batteries that barely work and
| will not deliver the expected ev only distance by a lot.
| teamonkey wrote:
| A lot of Toyota hybrids (but I believe not PHEVs) use NiMH
| batteries, which are longer lasting than the Li-ion
| batteries used in EVs and can withstand more charge cycles.
| moepstar wrote:
| Not only that, those small batteries do cost a
| disproportionate amount of money to replace.
|
| If you want a real world opinion, check the EVClinic
| blog...
| bdangubic wrote:
| what is fascinating about your comment to me is thag the value
| of your car has dropped precisely because people fear battery
| issues. my friend had a 2015 Tesla S in pristine condition,
| just a ridiculous car. replaced the battery so now we have 50k
| miles new battery like-new Tesla S that he could not sell for
| more than $30k. wild stuff...
|
| even though most people don't do it, on more expensive cars it
| actually makes serious financial sense to replace the battery
| but on cheaper cars it does not!
| verisimi wrote:
| > a refurbished replacement pack cost 150% the value of the car
|
| When I researched evs, I couldn't make the economics make
| sense. 7 years for a car lifetime seems outrageous.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Where do you get 7 years? That is not true of most EV. Even
| the worst ones, like the early Leafs did better than that.
| vel0city wrote:
| The economics of that seems solid to me. If the battery is
| bad in year 7 it's replaced under warranty.
| agumonkey wrote:
| After break pads, another good news I see :)
| ggernov wrote:
| This is why I opted for a hybrid Camry over a new Tesla. I kept
| my previous car for 13yrs and still sold it for $11k.
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