[HN Gopher] A 132-Year-Old Message in a Bottle in a Scottish Lig...
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A 132-Year-Old Message in a Bottle in a Scottish Lighthouse
Author : pepys
Score : 76 points
Date : 2024-11-19 03:27 UTC (5 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| Timwi wrote:
| Would like to see a link where I can read the whole thing.
| jjp wrote:
| BBC report including text of letter
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cje0x5j7wgjo
| andrewstuart wrote:
| It says "out of whiskey, send more ASAP to the lighthouse".
| eesmith wrote:
| Interesting fact - the note discovered is older than the first
| known use of ASAP, which
| https://www.etymonline.com/word/a.s.a.p. says was 1920, as seen
| at https://archive.org/details/sim_dental-
| economics_1920-03_10_... .
| Daneel_ wrote:
| http://archive.today/frW01
| wgx wrote:
| Text of the letter:
|
| Corsewall Light & Fog Signal Station, Sept 4th 1892. This lantern
| was erected by James Wells Engineer, John Westwood Millwright,
| James Brodie Engineer, David Scott Labourer, of the firm of James
| Milne & Son Engineers, Milton House Works, Edinburgh, during the
| months from May to September and relighted on Thursday night 15th
| Sept 1892. The following being keepers at the station at this
| time, John Wilson Principal, John B Henderson 1st assistant, John
| Lockhart 2nd assistant. The lens and machine being supplied by
| James Dove &Co Engineers Greenside Edinburgh and erected by
| William Burness, John Harrower, James Dods. Engineers with the
| above firm.
| emmanueloga_ wrote:
| What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse
| seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring
| and exciting.
|
| I hope the current engineers leave a better note for the
| engineers of the next century.
| tempodox wrote:
| These days it would be a post on Instagram or Twitter. Nobody
| will find those in 100 years.
| krisoft wrote:
| > I hope the current engineers leave a better note for the
| engineers of the next century.
|
| I don't like what you are saying. A more poetic note is not
| "better". You think it is, and that certainly can be your value
| but you are not the one fixing the light house.
|
| It is perfectly fine if all they did is to just write down who
| they were and what they were doing. They don't owe you some
| poetic inspiring letter just because they were in a place you
| associate with poetry. And certainly it wouldn't be "better" in
| an objective sense.
|
| In fact it would be less true if that is not the feeling they
| had. If they were sitting there thinking "need more grease so
| this bearing doesn't seize up" but wrote "Beacon stands
| steadfast,/ Waves crash 'gainst its ageless stone--/ A hymn to
| the stars." That would be worse, because it would be
| inauthentic.
| upghost wrote:
| I think the point is that this type of content of the message
| usually goes on something like an engraved plaque or a
| something that would go in a public records office.
|
| In fact, no one would have even clicked on this story and it
| would not be on HN if the story were "dusty plaque found in
| lighthouse".
|
| A "message in a bottle", especially at a lighthouse, conjures
| the romantic idea of a secret easter egg.
|
| I get what you are saying, but try to understand what was
| being said by the person you were responding to as well!
| OJFord wrote:
| To be honest I was surprised at the newsworthiness given it
| was hidden _in the lighthouse_ (not a message in a bottle
| at sea) and then in that context only 132 years old. If I
| started lifting floorboards and breaking plaster at home I
| 'm fairly confident I'd find something older.
|
| At school we buried a 'time capsule' for the millennium I
| think for 50 years thence. That'll be cool for the pupils
| in 2050, but it won't be news.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| > only 132 years old.
|
| You're in the UK, the article is in the NY Times - 132
| years old seems older to an American than it does to you,
| that combined with the message in bottle in lighthouse
| and Scotland all together sparked interest.
| OJFord wrote:
| I read it on the BBC linked elsewhere in comments, since
| it contained the text of the letter and this thread (with
| the text in top-level comment) didn't exist at the time.
| tocs3 wrote:
| "132 years old seems older to an American than it does to
| you"
|
| As an American, I take some small exception here. I have
| met people who were alive when this letter was written.
| 132 years was a long time ago, but not that long.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| OK I am just going to venture a guess that most people
| you meet in your day to day think of you as old.
|
| Of course you may be an outlier in that.
|
| Your architectural experiences may also be an outlier,
| but I think you will probably admit that most Americans
| have not lived in a 100+ year old house, hey, a good
| number of them might live in places where you have to
| drive hours to find a building that old.
|
| This is in contrast to much of the world I believe, it is
| at any rate definitely in contrast to Europe.
|
| on edit: this is of course not 100% reasoned through,
| this being HN someone could of course make a map showing
| how close in the U.S any person is to a building over
| 100+ years, or they could show that perhaps if you take
| the major population centers into account it will show
| that actually a majority of the population does in fact
| live within walking distance of such an old building, but
| all that taken into account I'm going to stick to my guns
| that to most Americans a house of 100+ years old is real
| old, and to everybody in the area I live in it's just
| home.
| tocs3 wrote:
| I 55yo. I think any people 40s+ would have meet 90-100 yo
| family members in their youth. I lived in in a 1870s
| house in a town in Connecticut and most of the houses on
| Main St. were of that vintage. It is not so uncommon in
| New England. Of course percentage wise I imagine most
| people in the US (and else where) live in structures
| younger. The house I a in now (my father built) is about
| 50yo and my grandparents house (that we inherited) is
| 80yo+.
|
| I spoke with an English engineer once who lived in a
| 400-500yo house in England and he knew an Egyptian who
| had lived in a house in the 1000s years old range. I
| suppose the terms "young" and "old" are fairly relative.
| grogenaut wrote:
| We buried time capsules in 7th grade to dig up when we
| graduated. They weren't there, but a bus stop shelter
| was. Also the English teacher lead the project. They
| switched to the math and science professors thereafter.
| akovaski wrote:
| This is why it's important to test your backups.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Is authenticity better than inauthenticity? If you think yes
| - is Ted Nugent a better artist than David Bowie?
| volemo wrote:
| Is such comparison even applicable to artists? I believe
| one artist can be more popular, better selling, more
| impactful in their field, but _better_?
| Exuma wrote:
| Yes it is. That is, after all, the entire point of a message
| in a bottle (unless you're trapped on an island, that is). A
| fun, whimsical idea so people in some other region or time
| can get a glimpse of the world you're in. A list of names is
| extremely unexciting.
| krisoft wrote:
| > people in some other region or time can get a glimpse of
| the world you're in.
|
| Yes. And we the people of a different time got a glimpse
| into the world they were in.
|
| > A list of names is extremely unexciting.
|
| Nevertheless that is what was important for them. That is
| their world. You don't want a glimpse into their world. You
| want their world to conform to your idea of what it must
| feel like to be on a lighthouse.
| Exuma wrote:
| Do you think humor and intrigue was invented in 2023? The
| lighthouse is irrelevant. The message in the bottle is
| relevant. "The world they live in" assuredly had
| creativity, humor, that could be tapped.
|
| "Nevertheless..." so you basically agree its extremely
| unexciting? That's the point.
|
| Would you click this post if it said "list creators of
| lighthouse found on piece of paper inside lighthouse"?
|
| The point of a message in the bottle is that it's to make
| something legitimately interesting for the person reading
| (assuming it's not attempting to save a persons life
| stranded on an island)... Presumably the people doing
| this entire exercise were aware of that. When you take
| part in some activity, there is an expected amount of
| context which you are expected to have awareness of,
| similar to how when you make a movie, while you CAN kill
| off the main character in a cliffhanger unsatisfying way,
| you also have to expect people are going to hate your
| movie.
|
| The fact that a bunch of engineers thought this was "most
| interesting" is, in itself not surprising I guess. But
| people lamenting that they could have done a lot better,
| is 100% valid.
|
| > You want their world to conform to your idea of what it
| must feel like to be on a lighthouse for other
| "lighthouse people"
|
| False. I literally want to read something interesting if
| I'm pulling a piece of paper out of a 100 year old
| bottle. There is an entire universe of topics besides a
| laundry list of names that could be done. They didn't
| because they thought this was what people 100 years in
| the future should see. Therefore, the entire experiment
| of "message in a bottle" is about as boring as it could
| possibly be. You literally couldn't make it more boring
| if you tried. Maybe a blank sheet of paper? The fact
| these names were meaningful to them, and the fact that
| this is an extremely boring outcome and leave people
| wanting more, can exist simultaneously.
|
| I will mention the one saving grace is that it was left
| in the lighthouse
|
| As an analogy, if I found 100 year old bottle in the
| floorboards of my house, a list of names could be made
| more interesting with... a photo, what their occupations
| are... what their favorite hobby or cherished item is,
| what used to be on the land before our house, what crops
| used to grow there, how the land was found, what kind of
| deed purchase it was, where they immigrated from.
| Literally 1000s of ideas to add detail.
| krisoft wrote:
| > "Nevertheless..." so you basically agree its extremely
| unexciting?
|
| No. I don't agree. I find the message extremely exciting.
|
| > That's the point.
|
| I hear you making the point and I'm disagreeing with it.
|
| > point of a message in the bottle
|
| The point of a message in the bottle is whatever was the
| point for the people who made it. For them the point was
| to write up their names in such a way that it persist for
| the future and will be found only by people who are
| working on the same lighthouse they did.
|
| > I literally want to read something interesting if I'm
| pulling a piece of paper out of a 100 year old bottle.
|
| And you did read something interesting. You had a glimpse
| into the real world life of some real world people. The
| kind of working class chaps who are not usually recorded
| in history books. They told you that they have worked on
| this lighthouse and when. It also speaks volumes what
| they haven't wrote in the letter. This is interesting.
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| Oh god, not inauthenticity! The greatest of all crimes.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| So odd, if you told any of your loved ones, or a random
| stranger, "Hey they found a hundred+ year old message in a
| bottle recently, want to hear what it said?" The person would
| of course want to know and of course be disappointed to find
| out it's essentially the credits for who built a lighthouse,
| and yet tons of HN'ers are super mad at the insinuation that
| the letter ended up being more or less a waste.
| notnaut wrote:
| The imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for
| anything frivolous ought to tell you why so many of them
| have a hard time finding meaning, comfort, human
| connection.
| pfdietz wrote:
| So, the diametric opposite of all those tech people who
| are furries.
| krisoft wrote:
| > imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for
| anything frivolous
|
| My disdain is not for things frivolous. I'm a big fan of
| frivolous things.
|
| My disdain is for those who wish these long departed
| engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day
| and age.
|
| If they, the original engineers, would have wanted to
| write a poem that would be great. That is their choice.
|
| We got a glimpse into their world and the commenter
| doesn't like what they see. Saying that what they did
| wasn't the right thing to do assumes that the commenter
| ideas are more correct than their ideas. That's arrogant.
|
| If you think it's not the right message, go restore your
| own lighthouse and leave the message you want to leave.
| Instead of telling others what they should have.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| > My disdain is for those who wish these long departed
| engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day
| and age.
|
| Surely you don't think they are actually upset at some
| people none of us know for not writing a poetic message.
|
| The point is: "Wow, we found a hundreds of years old
| message, what amazing insights of the past might we
| glean, what insights into the minds of that time?" "Oh,
| it's just a list of who built a lighthouse"
|
| > Saying that what they did wasn't the right thing to do
| assumes that the commenter ideas are more correct than
| their ideas. That's arrogant.
|
| I will butt in here though, if you have a chance to drift
| out a message to sea with some hope someone else may find
| it one day and read what you wrote, would you write that
| you were the author of some open source project? Or would
| you write something about your real feelings, the world
| around you, your thoughts and hopes and dreams, or maybe
| even share something about your town, your ancestors,
| your culture, the things you care about, etc.
|
| Most of us, I'm sure, would not choose to do the former.
| krisoft wrote:
| > would you write that you were the author of some open
| source project
|
| They didn't drift out a message to sea. They wrote it on
| their handiwork. Would people write their names on their
| open source project? Yes, they would, and they do. In
| fact there are licences where the only requirement is
| that you have to preserve the name of the original
| authors on the project. This is extremely common.
|
| This is the same. They thought they did a good job, were
| proud of it and signed it. The same way a painter signs a
| canvas or the crew writes their name in the credits of a
| movie.
|
| They used a glass to preserve the paper in an otherwise
| inhospitable environment.
|
| > Surely you don't think they are actually upset at some
| people none of us know for not writing a poetic message.
|
| Why would I think they are upset? They are not upset.
| They are arrogant and demanding. Instead of accepting
| what it is (people who the history forgot preserving
| their own name attached to something they put a lot of
| work into), the commenter is wishing they did something
| more which would have been more appropriate according to
| the commenter's values.
|
| > would you write something about your real feelings, the
| world around you, your thoughts and hopes and dreams, or
| maybe even share something about your town, your
| ancestors, your culture, the things you care about, etc.
|
| Did Steven Spielberg wrote any of those into the credits
| of Jurassic Park? Or just wrote "Director: Steven
| Spielberg"? This is the same. The message is the
| lighthouse. The bottle is the signature. It is a "we did
| this". And they don't have to expound on the "this"
| because if you found the bottle you are standing in it/on
| it.
| krisoft wrote:
| > The person would of course want to know
|
| So would I!
|
| > and of course be disappointed to find out it's
| essentially the credits for who built a lighthouse
|
| I wouldn't be disapointed. This is very exciting. We learn
| how many of them were there and what was important to them.
| For example they clearly had pride in finishing their work.
|
| We can then ask the question who they were, how did they
| live? How did they got this job? Using their names we can
| go back in archives and find more about them. This is super
| exciting.
|
| > yet tons of HN'ers are super mad at the insinuation that
| the letter ended up being more or less a waste
|
| Because it is not a waste, that is why. If you can't enjoy
| it as it is, bad for you.
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| It was written by hand, in a rather poetic, inspiring, and
| exciting handwriting! At least, I find it so.
|
| The bottle likely helped preserve the paper and the writing. In
| addition, I'd guess that they used good quality paper, because
| Iron Gall ink - which was in vogue at the time the letter was
| written - is fairly corrosive and can eat through paper.
|
| Addendum: I also find the bland (under)statement of their work
| comforting and inspiring.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Isn't that just how people were taught to write at the time?
| I had always heard that children were taught to write
| differently in the uk than in the us, but all those letters
| were exactly how I was taught 90 years later in the us. The r
| varies a couple places but the one used more often is how I
| was taught. I was taught with a ballpoint/biro, but with a
| flexible nib or brush pen it comes out looking like that,
| just not as pretty. I'm not sure if that is iron gall. There
| is a little bit of water damage in one spot and I've never
| seen real iron gall move around at all onve dry. You can use
| watercolors or even alcohol markers over it.
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| Yes, that was likely the handwriting in vogue at the time.
| It is beautiful, however!
|
| I don't know what kind of ink they would've used if not
| iron gall. Also, modern IG formulations differ from older
| ones, I think.
|
| As far as the handwriting goes, while the one from the note
| is recognizable, the script you learned at school was
| likely different. Ref:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_script
| galangalalgol wrote:
| I was taught https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian
|
| The uppercase t and h are the two main differences, but I
| guess I adopted the spencerian or copperplate version at
| some point.
|
| Lampblack ink or india ink was in use as well and spots
| with lots of pigment can have it move when wet.
|
| Edit: it would seem synthetic aniline based black inks
| were in use for personal writing by that time. Aniline
| black isn't even close to waterfast, so that might very
| well be it.
| gregw2 wrote:
| It's just a lighthouse engineer's form of marking the territory
| they built/operated like a modern day software easter egg.
| Their life's work was not a romance or linguistic creation, for
| better or worse. "Just the facts, m'am"
|
| Actually this actually sounds more like a forgotten formulaic
| ritual you were supposed to do for good luck whenever building
| a lighthouse, not even a true attempt to communicate in this
| instance. If that is your point then I agree.
| morning-coffee wrote:
| With entitlement evident Victorian engineers denigrated
| by Internet generation Whose vapidity is greater
|
| Is that poetic enough for you?
| upghost wrote:
| In all seriousness it would be fun to know a little more
| about the story. _Was_ this a rebellious act? Is this
| practice more common? Did this company do more things like
| this? Was the restraint in the message a sign of
| professionalism? Was the message debated? Was there one guy
| who was like, "guys the internet is gonna hate this"? Was
| this OG sh*t-posting!?
| Exuma wrote:
| Overreaction to a definitely arguably true statement. You can
| tell the bitterest basement dwellers when they self-identify
| by using the word vapid. It's the dead giveaway word.
| garciansmith wrote:
| I can't count the times I've researched a building only to find
| no one bothered to write down even the name of an architect,
| let alone the name of the builders. That they even named a
| laborer working on the project is great; the kind of detail in
| that note is extremely rare. Definitely more interesting to me
| as a historian than finding a poem about blazing a light
| through the darkness to guide lost sailors or something (not
| that that wouldn't be neat too).
| thih9 wrote:
| > What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse
| seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring
| and exciting.
|
| Were there other messages with "more poetic, inspiring and
| exciting" content from around that time and place?
| pbrw wrote:
| The date of the massage is 4th Sept but it says about the event
| on 15th Sept. Suspicious :)
| patall wrote:
| The variety in past firstnames always fascinates me. 5 Johns, 5
| Jameses, plus David & William.
| 1659447091 wrote:
| Thats the first thing I noticed! I've been doing bits of
| genealogy research into a couple great grandparent lines that
| already have quite a bit of research done (on males) from the
| mid-1500 to late-1800's and one line is Henry's and John's (and
| a random Abraham); another is all Peter and James (then a
| random Jesse)
| surfingdino wrote:
| No expletives? Truly disappointed... /s
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