[HN Gopher] A century later, a taped message solves the mystery ...
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A century later, a taped message solves the mystery of a WWI
doughboy's death
Author : apollinaire
Score : 119 points
Date : 2024-11-18 13:41 UTC (6 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| smitty1e wrote:
| "Sixteen years old when I went to the war
|
| To fight for a land fit for heroes
|
| God on my side, and a gun in my hand
|
| Chasing my days down to zero"--Motorhead, 1916
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTG6I3jxdnc
| ddejohn wrote:
| There is a lot of really phenomenal metal based around WWI for
| anybody else interested. Bands like 1914 (sings exclusively
| about WWI, from Ukraine) and Warbringer (a couple of songs
| specifically about WWI) come to mind.
| pomian wrote:
| Great fairly modern metal about war : Sabaton. Try 1914 the
| song
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| I was the first fruits of the battle of Missionary Ridge.
|
| When I felt the bullet enter my heart
|
| I wished I had staid at home and gone to jail
|
| For stealing the hogs of Curl Trenary,
|
| Instead of running away and joining the army.
|
| Rather a thousand times the country jail
|
| Than to lie under this marble figure with wings,
|
| And this granite pedestal
|
| Bearing the words, "Pro Patria."
|
| What do they mean, anyway?
|
| - Edgar Lee Masters, from Spoon River Anthology.
| macintux wrote:
| I haven't thought about _Spoon River Anthology_ in much too
| long. Thanks, I used to enjoy drawing connections, need to go
| take another look.
| domoregood wrote:
| https://archive.is/VODGb
| fractallyte wrote:
| _" It has been said that history repeats itself. This is perhaps
| not quite correct; it merely rhymes."_ - Theodor Reik
|
| The same tragic, traumatic events are being "rhymed" now in
| Ukraine. Yeah, perhaps we're tired of hearing it - but I'm
| writing this because after 110 years of industrialized warfare,
| our institutions and systems have _still_ not restructured
| themselves to prevent these cascades of events. The consequences
| are unspeakably terrible (read the article!).
|
| I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a
| disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its
| territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably
| _wrong_. (I won 't mention the situation in Gaza, because that
| situation is far more complex and horrendously polarized.)
|
| More than any other profession, many of us - as software
| developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of
| complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply
| internalized sense of morality. I _really hope_ some of us will
| branch out into politics or other power-positions in those
| institutions, and start knocking people 's heads together.
|
| I'm constantly - deeply - _appalled_ , at the ghastliness of
| what's happening _right now_ while we chat, work, and play in our
| separate worlds. Humanity can do better.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| >More than any other profession, many of us - as software
| developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of
| complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply
| internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will
| branch out into politics or other power-positions in those
| institutions, and start knocking people's heads together.
|
| Having a good grasp of complex systems doesn't make one avoid
| the shortcomings that have created modern genocides and
| industrialized society, etc. In fact I'd argue that deep
| knowledge of complex systems makes a politician even more
| competent at causing harm on massive scales.
|
| Knowledge does not make one moral.
| jajko wrote:
| No, but to state it has 0 positive effect is simply not true.
| Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to
| manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks. Its not 100%
| shield, but sure as hell helps a lot. Look who is dying on
| russian's side in russian war - poor, remote and less
| educated part of russian society since they are so easy to
| manipulate - effectively considered disposable subhumans by
| russian leadershit.
|
| Also, smarter folks understand that in hyper-complex
| structure like our global society, or on smaller nation
| scale, how good and freedom is something that's rare and
| practically unique for our current times, and should be
| protected at (almost) any cost since its loss may not be
| easily reversible for generations. Simpler folks care only
| about their own situation, bigger concepts are an
| afterthought at best.
|
| Also, its much easier to spot manipulators and liars, typical
| populists these days really can't wrap their manipulation in
| some clever package that requires detailed analysis to
| unwrap, at least not most of them (and usually that's
| enough). When you can easily detect lies and twisting of
| truth you know who you deal with, you can assess
| both/multiple sides and weight on who is who much closer to
| actual truth.
|
| Morality doesn't become some fancy foreign inconvenient
| concept but understanding how things that go around come
| around, always, and how only so you can build strong free
| society with bright future. And so on.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| >Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to
| manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks.
|
| But also much more capable of manipulating others via the
| same sorts of tricks, that's my point.
| verisimi wrote:
| There are so many interpretations of reality. There are also
| forces that are intentionally directing the messaging in a way
| that is perceived to be advantageous. This is to say, it's all
| very well to say one needs to do something, but are you even
| sure you have the right info? Back to your complex software
| system, where are you receiving information about the error in
| a system from, and why are you confident that it actually
| relays reality in a way that you would agree with? If you are
| not certain of the signal, why would you want to attempt to
| reengineer the system? With false information, aren't you bound
| to make it worse?
|
| Anyway, the real problem is parsing out the information in a
| way that reflects reality - what is presented on screens passes
| through many filters before it gets to us: corporate, military,
| governmental, not too mention all the people that are only able
| to see the world in the way that their education allows.
| russiashill111 wrote:
| > a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is
| currently committing genocide on its territory.
|
| As a fellow software developer, let me challenge both claims.
|
| Regarding genocide, there is zero evidence of that. We can tell
| that by comparing the number of civilian victims whenever
| Russia bombs Ukraine, with the number of civilian victims when
| Israel bombs Gaza or Lebanon. While there is no excuse for
| "collateral damage" (that's the Western term, I'm sure Russians
| have a similar euphemism), and one civilian victim is one too
| many, it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and
| not humans. It is throwing many more, and more powerful bombs
| than Israel and doing orders of magnitude fewer civilian
| victims. This (false) narrative may have worked, had the
| conflict between Israel and Palestine not restarted, providing
| a grim yet useful comparison point.
|
| Regarding the first statement, the extent to which Ukraine was
| disarmed is subject to debate. After all, demilitarization is
| an explicit goal of the Russia invasion. The main reason Russia
| invaded Ukraine is to prevent it from being used as a NATO-
| powered bulwark against Russia in the future, as America often
| does with its "allies". According to your own morality, if this
| prevents a future invasion of the sort you decry, wouldn't it
| be morally justified to some extent?
| andyferris wrote:
| I believe this disarmed part is referring to the nukes
| Ukraine used to hold, specifically.
|
| On the other point, Russia intends to hold the territory and
| integrate the civilian population they conquer while Israel
| seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal
| Israeli citizens any time soon. (Not defending Russia but I
| suspect the different motives lead to different outcomes).
| eitland wrote:
| > while Israel seems less interested in incorporating
| Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon.
|
| Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to coexist
| peacefully with it and has been willing to go very far and
| take risks to achieve that.
|
| This is very clear when you study its relation with Egypt,
| Jordan and Gaza.
|
| The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single attack
| after they stopped attacking Israel is well known.
|
| On the topic of Gaza it seems to be a lot of confusion, but
| here are some details people often leave out:
|
| - Israel voluntarily left Gaza in anticipation of a
| permanent peace deal
|
| - Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed
| their own people
|
| - Israel left infrastructure behind
|
| - Israel, in the beginning, had relatively open borders
| towards Gaza
|
| - There was hospital cooperation so people could easily be
| rushed from Gaza to Israeli hospitals to save lives
|
| - Gradually the borders have been closed more and more.
| Each of these restrictions have a reason written in blood.
|
| - Yes, that includes the reasons why ambulances are not
| allowed to cross into Israel without inspection, Gazan
| terrorists abused even that opportunity to stage attacks
|
| - The border have been restricted more and more thanks to
| this, but even until 07. of October last year, people could
| live in Gaza and work in Israel
| jvdvegt wrote:
| - Israel left infrastructure behind
|
| You mean they decided not to destroy it all? They caused
| billions of damage to EU funded infrastructure even
| before they invaded Gaza.
| egisspegis wrote:
| No, they mean that Israel left infrastructure behind.
| They mean exactly what they say.
| amritananda wrote:
| >Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to
| coexist peacefully with it and has been willing to go
| very far and take risks to achieve that.
|
| I think it's good to apply Mearsheimer's realist thinking
| here, and the intention is obviously clear that Israel
| does not want peace with Gaza as that would require
| recognition of a Palestinian state as the PLO had wanted
| since the 70s, which is a non-starter. Instead, as Israel
| has recognized, it is in its best interest to ethnically
| cleanse Gaza, either through outright murder of tens of
| thousands of civilians or rendering the strip
| uninhabitable to force the Gazans out. Many Gazans live
| in tents since their homes were destroyed by the Israeli
| military, and I doubt Israel will allow for any
| meaningful reconstruction once the war on Gaza is over,
| and will probably welcome the remaining Gazans fleeing
| the inhospitable conditions.
|
| This will probably also open up space for new settlements
| in Gaza that many politicians have already started
| proposing.
|
| You have to realize that most Israelis (~75%, and this
| figure includes Arabs) are in favour of the war, and IIRC
| half are in favour of expelling the Arabs altogether. I
| don't think we'd see much objection to this course of
| events within Israel itself.
|
| >The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single
| attack after they stopped attacking Israel is well known.
|
| It is interesting you mention this, because during the
| Israeli occupation of the Sinai penninsula in 1967, Egypt
| attempted to resolve the issue diplomatically, mediated
| by Gunnar Jarring. Their request was simply the Sinai in
| return for recognition of Israel and cessation of
| hostilities. Israel refused these conditions. Egypt
| eventually attacked in October 1973 and (much to Israel's
| surprise) was able to retake enough of the Sinai to call
| Israel's military domination into question. I think Rabin
| said that Egypt was enough of a threat that it needed to
| be neutralized, which is what the Camp David Accords did.
| It was literally through attacking Israel that Egypt was
| able to achieve the diplomatic solution it wanted from
| the start.
|
| >Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed
| their own people
|
| The Palestinians materially gained nothing from
| disengagement (in fact, they were blockaded and bombed
| during Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense despite the
| "disengagement"), but the Israelis were able to alleviate
| enough American pressure for a peace process that could
| potentially result in Palestinian statehood. Not to
| mention a costly military occupation could be stopped and
| Jewish settlements in one of the most densely populated
| regions of the world (i.e. a disaster waiting to happen)
| could be dismantled.
|
| I don't think benevolence towards Gazans had any role in
| the decision for disengagement, considering the overall
| Israeli indifference towards the suffering of the Gazans.
| fvvybfbfbyg wrote:
| > ed, it is in its best interest to ethnically cleanse
| Gaza,
|
| That was not Israel's policy back in 2006. Hamas had zero
| interest in coexistence or the wellbeing (or lives) of
| the people living in Gaza. The current situation is a
| direct outcome of that.
|
| I mean.. yes, if the only choice is between removing the
| entire population of Gaza and giving it back to Hamas
| it's not that surprising that most Israeli's are picking
| the first option.
| amritananda wrote:
| >Hamas had zero interest in coexistence
|
| I don't think the evidence favors this conclusion. Their
| actions immediately following 2006 suggests they
| definitely had quite a bit of interest - they enforced a
| ceasefire after 2006 (also punishing other groups that
| attempted to break it), and according to former President
| Carter were willing to accept a 2-state solution if the
| Palestinians democratically approved it. This was all put
| on hold after Cast Lead, which aligns with the Israeli
| policy of denying a two-state solution.
|
| The only piece of evidence I can think of that counters
| this is Hamas' charter, which IIRC calls for the creation
| of a Palestinian state in all of former Mandatory
| Palestine which would imply the destruction of Israel.
| But even then, based on the pragmatism demonstrated above
| (and the openness to a two-state solution), the Hamas
| leadership were rational enough to realize this goal
| could not be achieved.
| metabagel wrote:
| > it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and not
| humans
|
| Russia is targeting both. In particular, Russia targets glide
| bombs without precision at cities. There are also cases like
| Bucha, where people were rounded up and killed. And the
| execution of POWs.
|
| Keep in mind that Gaza is both more concentrated, and it
| doesn't have air defense systems like Ukraine does.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"Keep in mind that Gaza is both more concentrated, and it
| doesn't have air defense systems like Ukraine does."
|
| And their civilians are holding it wrong. /s
| eitland wrote:
| More importantly, while Ukraine has a developed network of
| shelters for protection of civilians and procedures for
| evacuating civilians, if necessary by force, the
| authorities in Gaza have been very clear that shelters are
| only for militants and they have also used force to keep
| civilians from evacuating.
| metabagel wrote:
| This qualifies as an act of genocide:
|
| https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-
| is...
|
| Putin wants to destroy Ukraine as a nation and obliterate
| Ukrainian identity.
| egisspegis wrote:
| I assume your nickname was supposed to be sarcastic, but
| man... "Regarding genocide, here is zero evidence of that." -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr.
| ..
|
| I invite you to pay attention to the "Evidence of genocidal
| intent" chapter. The same intent that Israel lacks.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| And why do countries want to join NATO?
|
| BECAUSE OF RUSSIAN THREAT.
| jajko wrote:
| Must be a long Sunday in FSB/GRU offices, no? Or did they
| move you to yet another military department?
| jeremyjh wrote:
| I'd imagine this sort of thing is fully automated at this
| point.
| rwyinuse wrote:
| The main reason for the invasion is that Putin believes
| independent Ukraine shouldn't exist, and that it all belongs
| to Russia for historical reasons. It's obvious if you
| actually listen Putin's speeches.
|
| NATO is just an useful scapegoat to justify Russia's
| imperialistic tendencies. During the period between fall of
| the Soviet Union and invasion of Crimea Russian businessmen
| here in Finland kept buying locations and buildings near
| military bases and strategic infrastructure, even though we
| had no intention whatsoever of joining NATO. They just like
| to subjugate their neighbours.
| fvvybfbfbyg wrote:
| > comparing the number of civilian victims whenever Russia
| bombs Ukraine
|
| Because Ukraine has access to modern AA and early warning
| systems. Russia is still indiscriminately shooting at
| civilian targets it's just that they have a much harder time
| hitting anyone than the Israelis.
|
| Also there are hardly any actual military targets in Lebanon
| and Gaza because the local terrorists couldn't care less
| about the civilian population there (not that this fact
| absolves Israel of anything)
|
| > used as a NATO-powered bulwark against Russia
|
| Deranged paranoid delusions... NATO, EU and USA couldn't care
| less about somehow attacking or invading Russia. That's just
| as absurd as it gets.
|
| > America often does with its "allies"
|
| When exactly did they do that in Europe?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| How do you want to prevent something that is ultimately not in
| your domain of decision. Most wars are started by autocrats
| under the belief that they can gain something from them. Those
| beliefs are often false or at least unfounded, but how do you
| want to change them from the outside? It is no more realistic
| than changing someone's religion by persuasion - possible, but
| rare.
|
| "Knocking people's heads together" doesn't work on people who
| have the entire military force of their country at their
| disposal. Such heads are basically un-knockable. Unfortunately
| one of the things that the state as an institution is really
| good at is projection of force; and outside democracies which
| divide power in a state deliberately, that force usually
| answers to a single person and their whim, or, at best, a small
| inner circle of people.
|
| And frankly, I trust scientists even less when it comes to
| politics that anyone else. Khmer Rouge was an academic
| enterprise. There isn't really a reason why an educated person
| should have any better sense of morality than a random farmer
| from the bush. When I look at the activity of the IT giants, it
| is 50 shades of moral grey underlined by stuffing their pockets
| and trying to project a cool vibe. It seems to contradict your
| idea of superior morality in the IT circles.
| FpUser wrote:
| >" And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized
| sense of morality."
|
| Really. I's say sense of delusion. I think that ratio of
| assholes to normal is about the same in highly educated vs your
| regular factory workers.
|
| >"I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or
| other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking
| people's heads together."
|
| Sure. PhD in physics, that's all it takes for politicians to
| fix everything. This is delirium
| XorNot wrote:
| The short version is: people get really stupid once they go
| outside their field of expertise.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Among academics programmers might have the worst asshole
| ratio of all. Is there any group that is even close?
|
| Maybe there being so much money in programming changed that a
| bit. It seems like it was worse when people become
| programmers out of interest mainly.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| > I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a
| disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its
| territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably
| wrong.
|
| Gee, when you put it like that, why are we waiting to conscript
| my only son and send him to die in foreign lands?
| beretguy wrote:
| Foreign lands? We all live on the same planet.
| FpUser wrote:
| You can explain it to officers when crossing border without
| passport and visa.
| justinclift wrote:
| And that's why having more than 1 kid is generally a good
| idea. :)
|
| Pity about it costing money though. :(
| Dilettante_ wrote:
| Yeah, we're way smarter than the common man( _and_ the people
| in power), we ought to be the ones who control everything!
| There is no possible way this line of thinking could lead to
| negative outcomes!
|
| >I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a
| disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its
| territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably
| wrong.
|
| It surely is your amazing grasp of complex systems that allows
| you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment of the situation.
| Can I vote for you as World Controller right now?
| fvvybfbfbyg wrote:
| > allows you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment
|
| Surely there were many complex causes which resulted in
| Germany invading Poland back in 1939, and Poland itself at
| the time was a deeply flawed state in quite a few ways?
|
| So of course you would also say that that event could not be
| described as "unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably
| wrong"?
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| > " _More than any other profession, many of us - as software
| developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of
| complex systems._ "
|
| Having read various opinions expressed on HN about politics,
| history, physics, medicine, and so forth, I'm pretty sure that
| we don't. Coding is not that difficult and many here are quick
| to say that they learned nothing of use to them in college.
| arcbyte wrote:
| Im as firmly in the camp believing Russia needs to ve stopped
| in Ukraine at all costs as you are, but stop with the genocide
| claims. It's so obviously not genocide that you are just crying
| wolf
| globalnode wrote:
| what a touching story
| jeremyjh wrote:
| That was my thought too. Surprised to see so few others with
| the same reaction.
| Hilift wrote:
| The allies threw 7,800 bodies at the Battle of Blanc Mont right
| as the war was ending. Two days after the battle, Germany
| requested an armistice, and the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman
| empires disintegrated. Two months later in the US in 1919,
| prohibition went into effect, 26 cities had violent race riots,
| and the Attorney General began a purge of immigrants and
| communists. In 1920, the Republican Party returned to the White
| House with the landslide victory of Warren G. Harding, who
| promised a "return to normalcy" after the years of war, ethnic
| hatreds, race riots and exhausting reforms. Harding used new
| advertising techniques to lead the GOP to a massive landslide.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(...
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| Turbulent times. Trump election is nothing, we will endure.
| greatgib wrote:
| Someone up for a tldr? Because after 10 mins reading I still see
| no meaningful content except the usual word wasting stories of
| the Washington post.
|
| Still no idea what the mystery is about exactly?
| Dilettante_ wrote:
| No mystery, really:
|
| Dead soldier's descendant goes looking for the details of his
| death, finds descendant of another (surviving) soldier that was
| good friends with him. That surviving soldier's descendant had
| documented the stories that surviving soldier had told,
| including the occasion of the first soldier's death(and their
| friendship). The death happened due to getting hit by a shell
| during an offensive.
|
| It's an engaging story, which I'm of course not doing justice
| to here, but the word "mystery" is just absolute clickbait.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| It's nice to get stories from outside the officer class (TE
| Lawrence etc)
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