[HN Gopher] Half of young Norwegians say online piracy is an acc...
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Half of young Norwegians say online piracy is an acceptable way to
save money
Author : isaacfrond
Score : 61 points
Date : 2024-11-19 12:53 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (torrentfreak.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (torrentfreak.com)
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _If buying isn 't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so..._
|
| This is a bad argument for piracy. (There _are_ good ones.)
| Plenty of things that can 't be bought and sold without
| restriction can be stolen.
| Retric wrote:
| Such as?
| cess11 wrote:
| Plutonium.
| Retric wrote:
| Plutonium does get sold, look up certified reference
| materials.
| pydry wrote:
| Organs
| Retric wrote:
| There's a market for cadavers.
|
| https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-
| bodi...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| And it's tightly regulated.
| Retric wrote:
| So are cars, it's still a sale and actual ownership.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _it's still a sale and actual ownership_
|
| What makes it actual versus pretend ownership? Remember,
| ownership is a social construct.
| EMIRELADERO wrote:
| > Remember, ownership is a social construct.
|
| But the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even
| when the button says "buy" is a legal one.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even
| when the button says "buy" is a legal one_
|
| Ownership is a stack of rights. It's a social construct--
| you can't lab test for ownership. It's meaningless to say
| what "really" owning means without specifying which of
| those rights you view to be essential in this situation.
| bdangubic wrote:
| in some states (e.g. Virginia) you don't get to own a
| car. you have to pay for the right to own a car each year
| in October via 4+% tax on your car's current value.
| 'merica at its finest :)
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Such as?_
|
| Tickets to a live performance. Health information. Public
| benefits. Tax refunds. Rental cars.
| Retric wrote:
| You just listed things that are regularly resold.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _You just listed things that are regularly resold_
|
| Yes? I said "things that can't be bought and sold without
| restriction."
|
| Are you saying it's not pirating if there's a resellable
| DVD available?
| Retric wrote:
| Stealing a physical DVD has meaning. Making a copy of a
| purely intangible set of data doesn't deprive someone of
| that data.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data
| doesn't deprive someone of that data_
|
| You're making an argument on the non-rivalry of digital
| content. This is one of the good arguments I referenced.
|
| Digital content is currently a club good, like broadcast
| television. (Excludable.) You're arguing for treating it
| like a public good, like a park. (Not excludable.)
|
| Ownership being a social construct makes statements like
| stealing X has meaning somewhat useless, particularly
| when it comes to rules.
| exe34 wrote:
| he didn't say stealing isn't piracy, in which case your point
| would stand - he says piracy isn't stealing. piracy could be
| a lot of things, but stealing isn't one of them.
| WastedCucumber wrote:
| It's not only about restictions on buying and selling, it's
| also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it
| be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _it 's also about restictions on using (where, for how
| long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the
| vendor_
|
| Sure. Again, this is true for a wide variety of things.
| Many of which we commonly consider to be stealable.
| WastedCucumber wrote:
| Such as?
| thechao wrote:
| I've always thought there was a clever hack to get out of
| deed restrictions through the use of adverse possession.
| howard941 wrote:
| Won't work, recorded deed restrictions run with the land.
| squarefoot wrote:
| When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is
| like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie
| is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new
| car_
|
| Now do social security benefits. Or hell, money in a bank
| account.
| 6SixTy wrote:
| For creative works, there's always a license behind it post the
| invention of copyright. It wasn't as obvious in the past now
| that DRM and digital/streaming only has given
| studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at
| their discretion. Though complicating matters is that there's
| increasingly nothing worth spending money on in the first place
| anymore.
| fsflover wrote:
| And piracy isn't as harmful as the corporations want you to
| think: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305476
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| corporation, no. the small people, yes. You can take a lot of
| losses when you have a billion dollars in the bank. Not so much
| when you got maybe 1000 (on a good day).
| codr7 wrote:
| Warms my heart, living in Norway atm.
| petertodd wrote:
| If I could actually buy movies and TV shows for download I would;
| I buy all my music as sites like bleep.com allow you to easily
| buy mp3s, probably thousands of dollars over the years. I've
| tried buying shows a handful of times before. But I travel a lot
| and they're geolocked - WTF can't I watch my fully paid for
| episodes of Rick and Morty on youtube wherever I happen to be?
|
| Since studios have made purchasing impossible, I don't, and I
| don't give them any money via streaming services either.
|
| There is one exception I can think of:
| https://www.teamstarkid.com/ They've made their (awesome!)
| musicals available for purchase, with a true video download. So
| they've gotten a well-deserved $50 from me.
| loufe wrote:
| I really enjoy Graphic Audio's audiobooks (full voice cast,
| music, SFX, high quality production). Their titles can all be
| bought outright, which is great as I spend a lot of time on a
| plane or away from a cell signal or internet capable of
| streaming even audio. It's a great approach, but I'm sure there
| are not a ton of folks who end up buying episodes, it's an
| expensive way to approach media, certainly.
| ramon156 wrote:
| I never understood why it's all collected under the term piracy.
| Do we just classify illegally acquiring as piracy?
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| illegally acquiring? Yes, technically. Otherwise it wouldn't be
| illegal.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| Watching people square this mentality with training LLM's on art
| has been fascinating, and really highlights that people are by
| and large just in it for themselves.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| GenAI content isn't afforded copyright protection so that feels
| like a coincidental good tradeoff
|
| I've made money from genAI content but i don't care if someone
| copied it, it's a risk I took, they don't have the network and
| community I do which is the value.
| stavros wrote:
| Why would it be hard to square the mentality of "pirating art
| to watch is acceptable" with the mentality of "pirating art to
| train LLMs on is acceptable"?
| CaptainFever wrote:
| It depends. If your premise for "pirating art to watch is
| acceptable" is "information should be free to be replicated
| and reused", then it is also obvious that "pirating art to
| train LLMs on is acceptable".
|
| What premise that can infer "pirating art to watch is
| acceptable" can also simultaneously infer "pirating art to
| train LLMs on is not acceptable"? "Information should be free
| to be replicated and reused as long as you're not making a
| profit"? This would rule out OpenAI, but Stable Diffusion
| would be acceptable (it's a true non-profit).
|
| What other premises could there be? "One should be able to
| watch all information, but not replicate it"? But you can't
| pirate without replicating the information. "You shouldn't
| repost stuff without consent"? But this rules out piracy.
|
| "Information should be free to be replicated and reused as
| long as it comes from a big corporation"? But piracy from
| indie games is a thing, too. And how do you define "big"?
| Also, is training stuff solely on Getty, Shutterstock etc
| okay, then? What about books3? "But even though publishers
| own the rights to the book, individual authors wrote it." But
| the same is true for piracy from big corporations. People
| worked on it.
|
| This is why it's so hard to square it, because I cannot see
| any rational moral foundation that simultaneously condones
| piracy (possibly indie games too) while condemning Stable
| Diffusion and the hobbyist AI ecosystem. The only other
| explanation is that it is irrational, or as the GP put it,
| "that people are by and large just in it for themselves".
| Piracy for me but not for thee.
| drpossum wrote:
| No one you're complaining about would care if people were
| training LLMs on pirated material for their own private use.
| Newlaptop wrote:
| Copyright has always allowed for educational usage.
|
| Writers read other author's books. Artists study other painters
| and sculptors. Actors and directors watch other movies.
| Musicians learn to play other artists songs before they ever
| start composing their own.
|
| The big media copyright cartel has tried to steal that right
| from the public good by pretending that they're entitled to
| even more payments for training usage, but thankfully it's
| clear that no regular people agree with them.
| mikeocool wrote:
| I used to download torrents of tv shows less because it was
| cheap, and more because it was way more convenient than watching
| them through legal means -- I could download them and then watch
| them when/wherever I wanted.
|
| For me, the content providers have now basically solved for that
| with streaming services, I find that way more convenient than
| dealing with torrents.
|
| It's definitely not cheap, I'm paying for at least five streaming
| services right now, but it's fast and easy and for me that's
| worth it.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| Torrents UX isn't uTorrent anymore, there are Netflix like UX
| solutions to piracy 2024. Feel free to pay, I'm happy to
| freeload off faceless megacorps profit margins.
|
| I pay for YouTube Premium and Spotify premium, I'd probably pay
| for Netflix if I didn't need D+, Showtime, Viaplay etc... To
| access all I want to watch.
| dotcoma wrote:
| What's wrong with the other half ?
| baud147258 wrote:
| other just think pirating is an acceptable way to stick it to
| the Man.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Saying "piracy supports organized crime" as a scare tactic is a
| new one to me, and doesn't seem like a very effective campaign.
| What would be their motivation, shitty ad revenue?
| telgareith wrote:
| Private trackers might he considered organized crime.
| some_random wrote:
| I was guessing stuff like counterfeit DVDs, which also
| doesn't really have much to do with torrenting
| kibwen wrote:
| Know what supports organized crime? The copyright-supported
| media titans that closed ranks to cover up the career-spanning
| crimes of all the Weinsteins, Cosbys, Diddys, and Saviles of
| the world.
| thih9 wrote:
| Interestingly, Diddy shares a cell (dormitory-style room)
| with SBF; small world.
|
| > [Diddy] was arrested and indicted in the Southern District
| of New York in September 2024 on charges of racketeering, sex
| trafficking by force, and transportation for purposes of
| prostitution. He is awaiting trial in federal custody at the
| Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. His cellmate is
| Sam Bankman-Fried, who is serving a 25-year sentence.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Combs
| mandmandam wrote:
| Not to mention their cover ups and distractions from far
| larger crimes - decades of cheerleading the 'war on terror',
| stirring up Islamophobia, ignoring Israeli atrocities,
| spreading climate change FUD, etc etc.
|
| Saville was mind-meltingly evil, but in terms of the damage
| done, even he pales in comparison to Cheney, W, Obama,
| Netanyahu, Biden, Murdoch, etc.
|
| Many people won't like these facts, and will reject them with
| prejudice. And that's largely because of corporate media :/
|
| So yeah, the hypocrisy really stings when they try to blame
| online piracy for the state of the world. It's staggering
| weaponized hypocrisy.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| well, the bleeding heart "you make indies unable to operate"
| didn't work. So you gotta move to fear, no matter how bad the
| argument. Everyone responds to fear when done right.
| fldskfjdslkfj wrote:
| Vikings gonna viking.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Get together with your friends and watch stuff.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Friends, in this economy? Surely you jest.
|
| There was a brief post COVID period where we hung out. It got a
| lot harder to contact them when almost all of us got laid off
| in different companies. I still do reach out (I was laid off
| too. I think I was the first in my circle), but it quickly
| became COVID hard again.
| akomtu wrote:
| Imagine if someone bought a royal permission to "own" the image
| of Mt. Everest, hired a bunch of gangsters and tried to chase and
| beat up everyone who dared to look at the mountain without paying
| a fee? That's the modern copyright holders, the wannabe
| aristocracy of the digital world.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| The alternative is that "not playing media you can't buy" is also
| an acceptable way to save money. There's so much free media out
| there these days that you could spend your life ethically
| consuming media without ever spending a dime.
|
| I'm no snitch, so do what you need to do. But I feel this
| mentality of it being "acceptable" only further devalues art. And
| the endgoal isn't some utopia where we all make art for free.
| Just look at the mobile industry for this race to the bottom.
| Tons of "free" mobile games, after all..
| downrightmike wrote:
| No wage. Only buy!
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Surprise, that's what you get for ... half a dozen worth of
| streaming services these days with none sharing their catalogue?
|
| It's not that hard. Spotify and Apple Music both have all the
| music one can ever want, why the fuck didn't the movie/TV
| industry consolidate on Netflix... greedy morons.
| matsemann wrote:
| As a Norwegian just above 30, I guess I'm a bit outside. But my
| impression is that most people don't pirate movies or music to
| the same extent we did when I was younger. What's being pirated
| now is often live sports.
|
| Watching Premier League costs about $75 a month. Why? Do the
| multi-millionaire soccer players really need that much? What
| happens with the sport when a whole generation of new fans can't
| afford to watch?
|
| I also wanted to watch the Alpine World Cup today, but due to
| weird licensing issues with winter sports from Austria it's not
| on any channel I can buy.
| talkingtab wrote:
| Corporations make decision that are predatory and then complain
| when people avoid them. For example, there has been much talk
| about "bad" passengers on airplanes. But there is little
| discussion about the increasingly inhumane people must endure to
| fly. Somehow the corporations expect people to endure over
| crowding, exasperating loading conditions, angry and surly
| "attendants", delays, bad food and more. Then when some passenger
| loses it, the problem is _never_ the conditions, it is the
| passenger.
|
| The same is true for digital content. Amazon "sells" you movies
| (as do others like Apple), but do you "own" the movie? No. Amazon
| can just tell you it is no longer available. You cannot "sell"
| the movie you "bought" to some other person. But you bought it
| right? People in general are of good will. But if you treat them
| as prey at some point they recognize these corporations are
| simply predators. In my opinion there is a very strong case to be
| made that people who decide not to be victims are of better
| character than these predatory corporations.
|
| [edit: removed the line "May their travels ever be delayed."
| because it was not clear I meant predatory corporations]
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| There's a 'concentration' (of people / power) effect by the
| creation of a business or company or corporation that makes
| said entity more appealing to cater to by government than
| individuals; centralisation is more efficient than
| decentralisation.
|
| There's also the fact that, historically at least, business
| entities were created to serve a public need, and therefore
| these business entities should be encouraged to grow their
| service to greater satisfy the need.
|
| Government still acts as if this is the case despite that many
| business entities are the grotesque offspring of that old idea,
| having evolved through perverse incentives into todays
| unrecognisable mutants of 'responsibility to shareholders' that
| are hideous to look upon.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I am not sure. I think piracy does deprive others of revenue. The
| only reason it feels acceptable is because it concerns
| information instead of something physical. The gray area for me
| is how ownership isn't real even when you legally purchase
| something. For example, when Amazon deleted copies of digital
| books from customers' Kindles.
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