[HN Gopher] Autopoietic Networks
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Autopoietic Networks
Author : Fibra
Score : 45 points
Date : 2024-11-21 21:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (gbragafibra.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (gbragafibra.github.io)
| gatane wrote:
| Autopoiesis.
|
| That word alone brings me back to systems engineering, and how
| everything was "like a biological cell" in modern practice.
| jaaron wrote:
| Reminds me of:
|
| https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/
|
| "Differentiable Model of Morphogenesis"
| for_i_in_range wrote:
| Niklas Luhmann's systems theory rests on autopoiesis.
| piombisallow wrote:
| This isn't really a network no? Just a 2D grid? Or am I missing
| something.
| fjkdlsjflkds wrote:
| Each cell of the 2D grid (or "neuron") is connected to (and
| updated as a function of) its immediate neighbours, which makes
| it a network/graph.
| ratedgene wrote:
| Love the word "Autopoietic", nobody really knows about it and any
| text that uses it for sure will capture my interest.
|
| I've first thought of this within the concept of self-assembling
| autonomous agents in 2016. Good times dreaming about a future
| where AI permeates every facet our lives.
| block_dagger wrote:
| Having AI permeate _every_ facet of life seems horrifying to
| me.
| NitpickLawyer wrote:
| May I ask why? I'm sincerely asking, no intention of flaming
| or trolling.
|
| I think we're at a point where "online" stuff already
| permeates every facet of our lives. And many of these systems
| already employ "AI" (for very limited definitions of AI) at
| every step. You search based on embedding and language
| models. You get ads based on graph theory. You see friend's
| posts based on this. You get approved for a loan based on
| "AI", hell even some legal cases are handled by extremely
| badly implemented "AI" systems, and so on and so on.
|
| I feel we're slowly approaching a phase where we could get
| that "sci-fi" like "personal assistant" that maybe can have
| access to all of our data, and can "act" in our best
| interests. Maybe when our data is considered, the "AI"
| assistant could have a say. Maybe it gets to decide when and
| how to share stuff. Maybe it gets access to the underlying
| algorithms and decides when and where to "agree" or "accept"
| our data being used for the average / median interest.
|
| It seems plenty of systems already use that data in day-to-
| day life. I'm looking forward to having systems where the
| good parts can continue while the concerning parts (control
| over data, control over algorithms) is somehow limited. It's
| probably too much for a human, but I can see how we could all
| have "agents" that follow some of our interests and have a
| say in the process. It certainly seems closer than "sci-fi",
| closer than two decades ago.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| Let return to Kant's third antinomy.
|
| It is both possible that all actions are fully freely determined
| AND that everything moves with mechanical necessity.
|
| Poeisis (or _auto_ poiesis) in its model assumes that the natal
| moment is BOTH freely determined (created _out of itself_ ) and
| necessary (created in a _chain of effects_ ). But this makes a
| fairly large, self-contradictory claim about production.
|
| To paraphrase Nathaniel Mackey, there is always some inistent
| priority behind every natal occasion; but it comes _within the
| expression itself_ and then masks its own conditions of
| possibility, so that what happened turns out to have been
| _happening_. And what is it that's happening is concrete insofar
| as it can be _determined_ by its natality, but not _given_ by it,
| and certainly any claim of autopoesis stakes itself on the
| latter: that it stands as its own proof.
| Fibra wrote:
| Perhaps you're already aware of it, but this paper by Andreas
| Weber and Francisco Varela "Life after Kant: Natural purposes
| and the autopoietic foundations of biological individuality"
| talks about this. Of special interest is the section 3.4 which
| more or less summarizes autopoiesis while taking into account
| Kant's intrinsic teleology.
| davi wrote:
| In summer of 1997 I interned at the Santa Fe Institute. Barry
| McMullin was there as well, using swarm (an early cellular
| automata library) to reimplement and extend the original
| autopoiesis algorithm. His report:
| https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/working-papers/comp...
|
| And a later study by him:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15245628/
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