[HN Gopher] Growing Music: musical interpretations of L-Systems ...
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Growing Music: musical interpretations of L-Systems [pdf] (2005)
Author : sargstuff
Score : 35 points
Date : 2024-11-18 13:11 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (ccrma.stanford.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (ccrma.stanford.edu)
| Rochus wrote:
| This conference paper is from 2005, not 2023, see
| https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-32003-6_...
|
| Essentially it's a glorified pseudo random generator, like many
| of the algorithmic composition ideas of the time.
| jll29 wrote:
| Correct; here are some papers that cite the paper above in case
| folks are looking for more:
| https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=6968059276866815065...
|
| I would assume that a lot of people now experiment with Large
| Language Models (LLMs) a la GPT-4 or Llama3 in the area of
| music generation.
| Rochus wrote:
| > _experiment with Large Language Models (LLMs) a la GPT-4 or
| Llama3 in the area of music generation_
|
| LLMs are/were indeed used for music generation, but none of
| these results were convincing from my perspective as a
| practicing musician. Language is just too different from
| music, so that results of (symbolic) music generation based
| on DNNs with linguistic embeddings are only good by chance,
| if at all. Convincing systems like Udio rather use an
| architecure for music generation as described e.g. in this
| article: https://towardsdatascience.com/audio-diffusion-
| generative-mu.... An LLM is only used to interpret text input
| and map it to musical features, not for the actual music
| generation.
| florilegiumson wrote:
| L-systems were proposed for music even earlier. Here's a link
| to an article from 1986:
| https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/score-generatio...
|
| It definitely is not a glorified PRNG. The idea is that you can
| create patterns that have both variety and repetition with
| them. I don't like the results, generally, but they are not
| random.
| Rochus wrote:
| Prusinkiewicz indeed did important work on L-systems and
| music in the eighties, but the use of generative grammars and
| rewriting systems in music dates back at least to the
| sixties. The reslts of such approaches are not random, but
| "pseudo random", as written. Also the term "fractal noise" is
| used in this context.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| L-System music is a pretty good description of gamelan.
| Rochus wrote:
| Is it? Can you provide a reference, please?
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| I don't know of anything good in english on the internet, I
| am sure there is some, I just kind of learn this stuff at
| rehearsal in the group I am in. There is also this book [1]
| if you are really curious (its a beast of a book).
|
| But to briefly explain what I am thinking, there is the
| notion of irama [2], where initially (in irama I) most
| instruments play something close to what is written. At some
| point (depending on the piece and style, but usually signaled
| by the drummer in Javanese gamelan) there is a transition to
| irama II, which sounds like everyone slowing down at first,
| but as soon as you get to some terminal point of the
| transition, certain instruments, based on their own rules,
| begin to "fill in" the space created by the transition. For
| example, if you are playing the peking, it might look like
| this:
|
| main melody/irama I/balungan: 2 1 2 6
|
| peking in irama I: 22 11 22 66
|
| peking in irama II: 22 11 22 11 22 66 22 66
|
| and so on
|
| I am far from expert and so much of this is all totally
| different depending on region and such. But this core idea of
| irama and rules-based elaboration from a specific seed is
| somewhat always present.
|
| Either way, just really some of the most beautiful music you
| will hear, highly recommend to everyone [3].
|
| 1. https://www.amazon.com/Gamelan-Manual-players-central-
| Javane...
|
| 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irama
|
| 3. https://youtu.be/3efH3WgTQRU
| Rochus wrote:
| Interesting, thanks; though I don't think that what you
| describe is comparable to L-systems. Just had a look into
| the book "Unplayed Melodies, Javanese Gamelan and the
| Genesis of Music Theory" by Perlman, which I have at hand,
| and didn't find any indications of generative grammars or
| rewriting; it's rather a set of established patterns
| ("balungan"); this also corresponds to what my friend has
| learned about the traditional music in Bali (here is a
| recording we did together; he plays the traditional
| slonding instruments): http://rochus-keller.ch/?p=251. The
| problem with the application of fractal algorithms to music
| is, that music is actually not "self-similar" in the
| fractal sense, but there are just repetitions or
| variations. Music in general is not based on an ever-
| evolving stream of "fractal noise".
|
| I agree that Gamelan is very beautiful music. Important
| western composers such as Steve Reich were there and
| studied the music to adopt the concepts in their
| compositions (see e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_Y
| SS06ZcQ&pp=ygUabXVzaWMgZ...). Here a part of the
| performance where you can see that Reich even adopded the
| orchestral layout similar to a gamelan ensemble:
| https://youtu.be/71A_sm71_BI?t=806.
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