[HN Gopher] What is the origin of the lake tank image that has b...
___________________________________________________________________
What is the origin of the lake tank image that has become a meme?
(2021)
Author : napolux
Score : 586 points
Date : 2024-11-20 13:30 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (history.stackexchange.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (history.stackexchange.com)
| legutierr wrote:
| This feels like a ghost of the internet of the 1990s.
|
| This writeup deserves its own website, something with minimal
| CSS, where you'll discover a bunch of family snapshots and party
| photos if you click around.
| ndileas wrote:
| That's an aesthetic / scene preference (that I happen to agree
| with). The content is the most important part -- you can find
| this kind of curiosity and knowledge seeking all over the
| place. It'll probably even stay readable on stackexchange
| longer than the average handmade site from the 90s.
| verisimi wrote:
| > where you'll discover a bunch of family snapshots and party
| photos if you click around.
|
| Yes, lovely. The sort of site where private moments might be
| kindly shared by an individual. To be distinguished from the
| forcible asset stripping and loss of ownership (theft, really)
| that form the terms and conditions of a large corporate's ToS
| today.
| flir wrote:
| I still think wikipedia hit those "this is my passion" sites
| harder than social media did. What's the point of building a
| site about widgets, when 90% of people are just going to hit
| the Widget page on wikipedia?
| xxr wrote:
| Plus Wikipedia offers arguing about widgets with other
| widget enthusiasts/detractors as a first-class feature via
| the Talk page.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| If you know so much about Widgets that you don't need to
| consult Wikipedia about them yourself, you know more than
| it'd accept anyway. Wikipedia does not compete with passion
| sites of people deeply into a topic; if anything, it uses
| them as citations.
|
| Also, counting audience is a thing that matters when you're
| running ads, which kind of disqualifies you from the
| passion site category, or as a trustworthy source of
| knowledge.
| account42 wrote:
| The point is to have a site that is not just going to be
| deleted because some permanently only jerk thinks Widgets
| aren't noteworthy enough.
| inopinatus wrote:
| It could form an entire Lucas Pope game.
| hehehheh wrote:
| Where the url root is /~username, and if there is an error it
| is an Apache one not Nginx and certainly not a 404 page that
| cost $10k to design.
| tomcam wrote:
| http://lileks.com/bleats/index.html
| lqet wrote:
| Why on earth doesn't the top answer have more upvotes. Impressive
| research, with full background, alternative pictures and an
| _original picture of the panzer falling into the river_.
| pbrowne011 wrote:
| While this didn't get much attention on History Stack Exchange,
| see ConeOfArc's YouTube video (which has 963k views as of
| today): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaRO_dTqO1E
|
| See also ConeOfArc's video from a month later,
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO58B6LcTfM (1M views). The
| video above is about the initial search and problem, this video
| is after many Internet strangers worked together to solve it.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Modern remix:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=tank+in+river+ukraine
| oxguy3 wrote:
| > The photo was taken about coordinates 50.29092467073664,
| 4.893099128823844 near modern Wallonia, Belgium on the Meuse
| River.
|
| Great writeup, but I did have a little chuckle reading "it was
| taken about near here", followed by coordinates precise enough to
| identify a single atom. https://xkcd.com/2170/
| vardump wrote:
| Going to be a different atom once you walk near. Or temperature
| changes, the wind blows, and so on.
|
| We'll need to give each atom a unique ID. That would solve the
| problem.
| dylan604 wrote:
| IPv8 is accepting RFCs
| Aerroon wrote:
| There are 10^80 atoms in the universe, therefore 266 bits
| are enough to give each a unique identifier. Due to how
| computers work maybe we can do two numbers: a 32-bit type
| or area code and a 256-bit counter. Or perhaps we just
| combine them into a single 272 or 288 or 320-bit number.
| stackghost wrote:
| Time for Intel to climb out of the pit by introducing
| x86_266
| wongarsu wrote:
| Earth has about 2^170 atoms. If we ignore the core and
| mantle, focusing on the crust, surface and atmosphere, we
| should be able to cram it into IPv6. Even if we add a
| couple planets and moons in the future. At least if we stop
| giving each person 18 quintillion IPs just because we once
| thought encoding MAC addresses in the lower 64 bits was a
| good idea.
| astrange wrote:
| Addressing isn't really the big issue with IPv6. The main
| issue is that moving to mobile networks means all its
| assumptions about how routing will work are wrong, since
| you don't want to lose IP connections when you move
| across cell towers.
| itishappy wrote:
| Let's start with electrons. I've got SN001 here with me, but
| I haven't been able to find any others...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
| dredmorbius wrote:
| No man steps into the same 14-digit-precision geocoordinate
| twice.
| tim333 wrote:
| You're going to run into problems with quantum mechanics and
| the non zero amplitude that two identical hydrogens swap
| place.
| tim333 wrote:
| I'm not sure it's quite enough. By my calculation a change of
| one in the last digit corresponds to a move of about 1 nm. A
| water molecule is about 0.27nm across. I think you'd need at
| least one more digit.
| bbqfog wrote:
| That's a meme? I've never seen that photo before in my life and
| I'm pretty aware of most memes.
| CoopaTroopa wrote:
| Just google 'tank of the lake, what is your wisdom' and you can
| catch up on a new meme genre
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I think a very small number of people today are aware of
| Arthurian legend. I think I have heard the phrase "lady of
| the lake" before but never really knew any context around it
| until I just now searched the term. I would have guessed it
| was the name of a ship or something.
| jt2190 wrote:
| Yeah and I seriously question what feels like "I couldn't find
| anything about this in Google therefore nobody knows anything
| about this". [1] I worked in a specialized reference library
| for a while and it was very eye-opening to see university
| students fail to find, say, 90% of our materials.
|
| [1] Quoting: > However, no-one seems to know the origins of the
| image
| swores wrote:
| Do you have a go-to bit of advice you give to students who
| you've spotted are lacking research (and just plain search)
| skills?
|
| (i.e. Something to kickstart them in the right direction, not
| just a way of saying "learn how to search better!")
| plagiarist wrote:
| I think people prefer the similar (derivative?) "senpai of the
| pool" for receiving wisdom from a non-native occupant of a body
| of water.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| As long as you remember that supreme executive power derives
| from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
| aquatic ceremony.
| mholt wrote:
| This begs the question, is it a meme if it is not seen?
| acheron wrote:
| Sounds like a question you should ask the panzer of the lake.
| napolux wrote:
| winniethepoohrecursion.gif
| napolux wrote:
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/panzer-of-the-lake
| cedilla wrote:
| I highly doubt that - most memes are short-lived, community
| specific or barely identifiable to outsiders.
|
| But you are, of course, unaware of memes you are not aware of.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Speak for yourself. I'm not aware of _any_ memes that I am
| unaware of.
| bityard wrote:
| There are more memes than one person can know.
| ranger207 wrote:
| It's most popular in military enthusiast circles, especially
| around the video games World of Tanks and War Thunder, which
| tend to be somewhat insular
| layer8 wrote:
| Most of them? Are you sure?
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/MemeEconomy/comments/egxfws/12880_m...
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| I haven't seen the lake tank image being used as a meme anywhere,
| except now or maybe I have to explore the world of memes some
| more.
|
| Hats off to all who helped each other find this once lost story
| from history.
| napolux wrote:
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/panzer-of-the-lake
| Iulioh wrote:
| Another point is the fact that i saw more "anime version" of
| this meme than the original foto
| napolux wrote:
| i'm aware of the "senpai of the pool" version, but probably
| i'm biased... I'm a huge WW2 nerd.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| Went there for the first time and found out it's banned in my
| country.
| sss111 wrote:
| which country?
| edm0nd wrote:
| From their X bio, Pakistan.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| Yes, it is Pakistan.
| tim333 wrote:
| Ha. Knowyourmeme.com has some Everybody Draw Mohammed Day
| stuff which might not go down well with the government
| there. I doubt they are worried about tanks.
| edm0nd wrote:
| Cant allow all the normies to view cool stuff on the
| internet
| RunningDroid wrote:
| Wikipedia doesn't say archive.today is blocked in your
| country, so this link might work for you:
|
| https://archive.today/7b6Lz
| jojobas wrote:
| You're not getting your BM degree, not with that attitude.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| I am feeling the humor behind this sentence if only I knew
| what BM is.
| jojobas wrote:
| Bachelor of Memes naturally.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| Haha. I guess you already graduated in it.
| nerdile wrote:
| Fiber can help with that.
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| No, I should try more proteins.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Germans pioneers wore white uniforms? That sounds like the worst
| possible colour for digging ditches, recovering tanks or
| camouflage (if it isn't snowing). Why would they do that? Did
| Hugo Boss do the design?
| Retric wrote:
| Edit: ops, that joke wasn't clear.
|
| A prisoner's uniform needs to be cheap, distinctive, and easy
| to spot it doesn't need to be clean.
| jabl wrote:
| If the person were a prisoner he wouldn't be carrying a
| rifle..
| Retric wrote:
| Thus the joke...
|
| It's a play on words, and the involuntary nature of service
| in the German military at the time.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| For some value of 'joke'.
| Retric wrote:
| Fair, but it's a meme thread. My initial thought was.
|
| Pioneer: O panzer of the lake, why are our uniforms
| white? Panther: They must be easy to spot.
|
| But, I tried to reach past the pun and failed.
| 1-more wrote:
| German Army had 1.3 million conscripts and 2.4 million
| volunteers in the period 1935-1939 so odds are he signed
| up to be there.
| Retric wrote:
| Those numbers aren't independent of each other. People
| about to be drafted will often volunteer to be in a
| military as a volunteer rather than a draftee, to get the
| waiting over with, etc.
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| From the link, the white pants are part of the "Drillich" work
| uniform. From searching around, these were intended as work
| uniforms / overalls. You were intended to wear these (there
| were both pants and jackets) over your actual uniform, and
| these would take the abuse.
|
| It seems like the early war patterns were simply undyed. Mid-
| war versions were apparently dyed darker.
|
| Here's a forum with a bunch of pictures of examples:
| https://www.militariacollectors.network/forums/topic/4042-th...
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Undyed coveralls makes sense, thanks.
| thetisxviii wrote:
| Post WW II the Panzer IV's were offloaded to the Middle East.
| But it competed well with its Soviet T-34.
|
| At first it looked like Czech military fatigue but the
| confluence of two rivers points to Germany.
|
| > The man is an unnamed German pioneer likely at the time of
| recovery.
| 1-more wrote:
| > Did Hugo Boss do the design?
|
| I'm not saying that you're saying that, but there is a
| persistent meme that Hugo Boss designed the Nazi officer
| uniforms, or maybe is was the SS, or it was the whole
| Wehrmacht. This lends a certain mystique to the Nazis and
| cements the notion that they were somehow extra sharp.
| Aesthetic forbidden fruit. I don't like that, not in the least
| because it's not correct. The uniforms for all the Nazi arms of
| the state were designed by party insiders. Boss didn't even
| start designing men's tailored suits until after the war.
|
| This is not to exculpate Hugo Boss, but to knock the shine of
| fancy suits off of the nazis. Hugo Boss had been selling ready
| made menswear since 1923, joined the nazi party in 1931, and
| won contracts to produce the uniforms much the way FEDS Apparel
| makes the USDA branded polo shirts [1]. In fact, he produced
| the uniforms using slave labor. He's guilty as sin.
|
| someone with better citations saying the same thing with more
| details seven years ago:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/78ho4c/comme...
|
| [1] think of these dorky (no offense to the dorks who keep our
| milk free of pathogens) polos or windbreakers when you think of
| the nazi uniforms https://www.fedsapparel.com/collections/us-
| department-of-agr...
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I thought Hugo Boss designed Nazi uniforms. Apparently not.
| As you say, he just made them:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Boss_(businessman)
| arnaudsm wrote:
| Nerd sniping is my favorite kind of content on the internet
|
| https://xkcd.com/356/
| kedarkhand wrote:
| Ok, now I need the answer to that question, what will the
| resistance...
| jackwilsdon wrote:
| Answered on explain xkcd ((4/p - 1/2) ohms, or roughly 0.773
| ohms):
| https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/356:_Nerd_Sniping
| tim333 wrote:
| (4/pi - 1/2) ohms that is. HN does funny things to the pi
| symbol.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Must resist urge...
| eddd-ddde wrote:
| The equivalent of dropping grains of rice so some mythical
| creature is forced to count every single one.
| gojiramothra wrote:
| > It's a Panzer IVD of the 31st Panzer Regiment assigned to the
| 5th Panzer Div. commanded by Lt. Heinz Zobel lost on May 13th,
| 1940. The "lake" is the Meuse River. The man is a German pioneer.
|
| Interesting uniform
| mxfh wrote:
| Since _Know Your Meme_ doesn 't give the reference for why it's a
| _lake_ , maybe not everybody is familiar with british lore:
|
| The mythical _Lady of the Lake_ :
|
| Probably best known via Monthy Python:
|
| _Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis
| for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from
| a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic
| ceremony._
|
| In short: _She teaches Lancelot arts and writing, infusing him
| with wisdom and courage, and overseeing his training to become an
| unsurpassed warrior._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnigmaticEmpower...
| mrandish wrote:
| This reminds me that Monty Python and the Holy Grail
| contributed actual historical knowledge about Arthurian legends
| to my knowledge base while growing up. Other examples of Python
| unintentional education include knowing the names of a myriad
| of obscure cheeses (the cheese shop skit), a shocking number of
| anachronistic synonyms for death (the parrot skit) and notable
| contributions of the Roman Empire (Life of Brian 'What have the
| Romans ever done for us?' skit).
|
| While it didn't contribute to my GPA at the time, I'm sure I
| could name more notable philosophers than any other 8th grader
| in my school (philosopher's song skit). However, in high school
| it did spark the interest to look up and read about each of the
| philosophers in the song.
| graemep wrote:
| The problem is that comedy is frequently not factually
| accurate.
|
| Roman Imperial contributions? Was Roman wine better than pre-
| Roman wine in that region? Did they improve sanitation,
| irrigation, medicine etc.? Rome was an oppressive slavery
| based society.
|
| Then what about the Spanish Inquisition sketch? It keeps
| repeating "fanatically devoted to the Pope"" The Spanish
| inquisition was an arm of the Spanish monarchy, at least two
| Popes tried to shut it down, and some historians have
| suggested one of its aims was to reduce the power of the
| Papacy.
|
| I do like the Philosopher's Song, the Dead Parrot and Cheese
| Shop.
|
| Other comedies are no better. Black Adder has a witchfinder
| (an early modorn innovation) in a Medieval setting.
|
| Pop culture is not historically accurate!
| K0balt wrote:
| ...I think it kinda goes without saying that , perhaps with
| a very few notable exceptions, satirical television shows
| are not necessarily renown for their historical,
| scientific, or anecdotal accuracy.
|
| That being said, in my own experience at least, such
| pseudo-historical references in comedy in particular have
| spurred me on to independent investigation as to what they
| were on about, exactly.
|
| I'd say that the slapdash integrity is a feature, rather
| than a bug, since it is implicit in the format that a
| certain fraction of the assertions made will be bullocks
| cheese. This spurs curiosity and is also an excellent
| comedic mechanism.
|
| It would be interesting, however, to have a backdrop of
| steadfast historical "accuracy " in an otherwise pseudo-
| slapstick context a-la Monty pythons flying circus. That
| was kinda part of the gig, but it might be even funnier if
| they obviously took that aspect with unflinching
| seriousness.
|
| As for the Roman Empire, I'd dare say that in slavery they
| were contemporary with most societies of their day, and I
| think to imply that their use of slavery somehow diminishes
| their contribution to global cultural heritage is not only
| disingenuous, but also smacks of some kind of pointless
| reflexive regurgitation of a partisan talking point or
| conformance/virtue signaling. It kinda undermines your
| point.
|
| Ultimately, there are probably very few, if any, living
| humans that cannot trace their cultural heritage to
| slavery, slave ownership, perpetrators horrific atrocities,
| genocide, human rights violations, war crimes, and violent
| crimes against women, children, and humanity in general.
| What matters is what -you- chose to do. Be known for the
| fruit of your tree, and not as the product of the hill from
| which you sprout.
| bigiain wrote:
| Poe never wrote "Quoth the raven, eat my shorts", but I
| suspect an order of magnitude or two more people are
| aware of that poem thanks to The Simpsons, compare to all
| the poetry teachers ever.
| bigiain wrote:
| > It would be interesting, however, to have a backdrop of
| steadfast historical "accuracy " in an otherwise pseudo-
| slapstick context a-la Monty pythons flying circus. That
| was kinda part of the gig, but it might be even funnier
| if they obviously took that aspect with unflinching
| seriousness.
|
| That can get super grim too.
|
| I saw (maybe read?) an interview with Margaret Attwood
| about The Handmaids Tale. She took the atrocities
| committed by Gilead very seriously - and did not make a
| single one of them up. Every one of them was something
| historically accurate that really happened somewhere in
| the world.
| mxfh wrote:
| Would say I prefer comedy/satire, since you don't run
| into the danger zone of historical dramas, where you
| mistake artistic story alterations for dramatic effect
| for some historically factual narrative.
|
| Those are hard to rectify once internalized, and have a
| tendency to even overshadow historical research for the
| general public.
| graemep wrote:
| > Those are hard to rectify once internalized, and have a
| tendency to even overshadow historical research for the
| general public
|
| The "people told Columbus the earth is flat" is one that
| is still repeated by people who should know better.
| K0balt wrote:
| I can't believe that crap was drummed into us in grade
| school. I was taught that that was literally the reason
| for the voyage, that he was out to prove the world was
| round to the doubt and consternation of his
| contemporaries.
|
| That shit was fabricated from whole cloth, and why?
| So.much.absolute.bullocks in my grade school curriculum.
| It's like as if the whole point was to make up The most
| outrageous lies and see if you could trick kids into
| believing them.
|
| OTOH I'm thankful for a healthy skepticism of
| institutions and authority.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| > in slavery they were contemporary with most societies
| of their day
|
| > Ultimately, there are probably very few, if any, living
| humans that cannot trace their cultural heritage to
| slavery
|
| Indeed. Historically, for most of human civilization,
| chattel slavery was a linchpin of most societies. The
| Romans were unremarkable in this respect.
|
| And if I may take a long digression to emphasize just how
| normal chattel slavery was for not only the ancient
| world, but for centuries after the fall of the Western
| Roman Empire, it took Christianity to mount a challenge
| to this practice. It gave us a robust notion of the Imago
| Dei and human dignity, and a recognition of the evil of
| unjust servitude (which must be distinguished from just
| title servitude). Ancient Christians, having been born
| into a pagan world of entrenched and ubiquitous slavery,
| while believing that slavery was indeed evil, recognized
| that its abolition was impossible and impractical at the
| time. Of course, membership in the Church was open to
| everyone equally; social status had no significance.
| After Christianity's legalization under Constantine, the
| Church worked to free slaves and eventually managed to
| eradicate the practice in Europe. A former slave even
| became pope (Callistus I).
|
| Some will point to chattel slavery in the New World, but
| this confuses what the Church as an institution held with
| what individual Catholics or Protestants did. Eugenius
| IV, prompted by slavery in the Canary Islands, condemned
| slavery in the papal bull _Sicut Dudum_ in 1435,
| threatening excommunication. In 1537, Paul III issued
| _Sublimus Dei_ to condemn enslavement of the natives of
| the Americas. In 1591, Gregory XIV promulgated _Cum
| Sicuti_ to counter the practice in the Philippines. Urban
| VIII promulgated _Commissum Nobis_ in 1639 in support of
| Philip IV 's edict prohibiting the enslavement of
| American natives. Benedict XIV, in his 1741 document
| _Immensa Pastorum_ , reminded that the penalty for
| enslaving the indigenous was excommunication.
|
| Similar condemnations were issued regarding the Atlantic
| slave trade by Innocent XI, Gregory XVI ( _In Supremo_ ,
| 1839), and Leo XIII in two bulls condemning slavery in
| 1888 and 1890. The condemnations were often so harsh that
| their publication was often forbidden without royal
| approval.
|
| And we credit the abolitionists of and from the Christian
| West for politically ending the practice in their various
| respective jurisdictions that fell under Western rule.
| Their appeals were grounded in the general heritage of
| the Christian tradition and its understanding of the
| human person, whatever theological or philosophical
| differences there might have been between them.
|
| > What matters is what -you- chose to do. Be known for
| the fruit of your tree, and not as the product of the
| hill from which you sprout.
|
| Wise words. History ought to be remembered, and
| unresolved historical trauma should be addressed and
| resolved lest it fester (reasonable justice and
| remembrance matter; without truth, there is no authentic
| reconciliation or unity), but to stew perpetually in
| stomach-churning grievance over what someone else's
| ancestors did to your ancestors (often overlapping
| groups, btw) only succeeds in wasting the short time we
| have in this life and contributes nothing to it. It's an
| excellent method of self-sabotage.
| Miraste wrote:
| >Did they improve sanitation, irrigation, medicine etc.?
|
| They built a network of aqueducts that was the largest in
| the world for a thousand years. The plumbing and sewage
| systems they installed in their cities were so effective
| that some are not just intact, but in use, _right now_.
| There are plenty of negative points you can raise about the
| Roman Empire, but water systems aren 't one of them.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| And let us not forget about Roman law.
| bigiain wrote:
| But apart from the aqueducts, what have the Romans ever
| done for us?
| notarealllama wrote:
| Okay, but apart from orthography and aquaducts, what have
| the Romans ever done for us?
|
| Now as punishment go write this on the wall 100 times!
| mrandish wrote:
| Seeing the comedy beats of that scene play out on HN,
| first unintentionally and then intentionally, has made my
| day!
| baud147258 wrote:
| well, being part of the Roman Republic/Empire meant
| peace, even if it was enforced at the tip of a pilum. And
| the population under the Empire were more prosperous and
| numerous, so much that the collapse of the Empire in the
| West had long-lasting negative consequences (I'm mostly
| basing my opinion off this article:
| https://acoup.blog/2022/02/11/collections-rome-decline-
| and-f...)
| ihaveajob wrote:
| Ok, but beside the aqueducts, orthography and lasting
| peace, what good were the Romans for us?
| arethuza wrote:
| Dirty great walls - which some of us are on the "wrong"
| side of ;-)
| 71bw wrote:
| >some are not just intact, but in use, right now.
|
| Thanks for giving me something to research at work. What
| query do you recommend I put into a search engine?
| "intact aqueducts italy" doesn't seem to help much
| SonOfLilit wrote:
| Why Italy? There are (inactive) roman aqueducts as far
| away as Israel
| soyyo wrote:
| Start by expanding the countries in your search.
|
| At its peak, the roman empire covered Europe, North
| Africa, and parts of Eurasia.
|
| In Spain the most famous is the one in Segovia, it is
| incredibly well conserved, but not in actual use.
| botzi2001 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aqueducts_in_the_Ro
| man...
| Miraste wrote:
| I was particularly thinking of the Aqua Virgo, an
| aqueduct to Rome that supplies city fountains to this
| day, and the Cloaca Maxima, a sewer and drainage system
| that has been in operation since it was built two
| thousand years ago
| inglor_cz wrote:
| In a pre-industrial agricultural society, slavery or
| something similar (serfdom etc.) tends to be widespread, as
| human and animal muscles are the only reliable and
| ubiquitous source of energy. Humanity only really started
| getting rid of unfree backbreaking work by adopting steam
| engines. 300-400 years ago, most of us forists here would
| be unfree people working the fields in unfavorable
| conditions, with maybe 5 per cent being burghers and 1 per
| cent nobility.
| astrange wrote:
| It's not that pre-industrial society causes slavery, it's
| closer to the other way round. If you're pre-industrial
| then everyone has to do farm work, yes, but slavery is
| /economically inefficient/ because the slaves don't
| provide demand (since you don't pay them) and don't grow
| the economy.
|
| This is why economics was called "the dismal science" -
| economists told people to stop doing slavery and the
| slaveowners called them nerds. They wanted to own slaves
| because they wanted to be mini-tyrants, not because they
| were good at capitalism. Adam Smith did not go around
| telling people to own slaves.
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Nope. If the only kilowatts at your disposal are the ones
| that you, your slaves and your horses can digest, you
| cannot just upscale the production of goods (or anything
| else) arbitrarily. The whole economy is bottlenecked on
| production which is bottlenecked on energy supply.
| Increasing the demand when supply is the problem would
| only make things worse.
|
| However once you're burning coal (or harness the wind in
| case of dutch) things are very different, kilowatts flow
| freely and all the things you say above start to be true.
| astrange wrote:
| I would say that inventing new technologies is one of the
| things that isn't possible when you've enslaved the
| inventors and made them farmworkers.
|
| I mean, making them do research might work. That's a
| command economy, aka actually existing communism. Should
| be able to invent the waterwheel and crop rotation.
|
| I do think it's hard to invent antibiotics and the Haber-
| Bosch process, and without that you are still in a
| Malthusian economy where everyone's going to die if they
| slack off farming.
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Well yes, but how is this even relevant to the
| conversation? No one says innovation thrives with
| slavery. The point made is very simple, it's about
| commandable energy and EROI in particular. No amount of
| antibiotics can change that.
| wbl wrote:
| From 1000-1700 there was increasing wealth in Europe not
| through serfdom intensifying (but see Poland) but through
| increased trade, fishing, agricultural improvements and
| culminating in the steam engine. Watermills were medieval
| inventions.
|
| Smith's pin factory has no steam engine. Nor did Slaters
| mill which created US industrialization. Steam required
| institutions to grow, institutions that had created
| growth earlier.
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Agreed, and that is aligned with the point I'm making:
| bottleneck was the production, not consumption. Saying
| that increased consumption of freed slaves would somehow
| pull you out of pre-industrial age (the comment I was
| replying to) is just bonkers.
|
| The increased production was indeed a result of centuries
| of incremental improvements. You're right to point out
| that some of them were not about energy, but I would
| argue that all of the big ones were.
|
| Slaters mill put hydropower to work and even though
| watermills were medieval, the machines that poured that
| energy into cotton weren't. Same with the windmills
| during the Dutch Golden Age which I mentioned above.
| Increased trade happened through massive wind-powered
| ships, not slave galleys. (Though the Smith pin factory
| unlike the Slaters mill is not a real factory but a
| criticized thought experiment, I wouldn't consider it too
| influential)
|
| But yes, indeed the steam appeared at the right time,
| only when there was enough technology to put it to use
| down the line.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Watermills are pretty limited technology, though. It is
| advantageous to build them on rivers in hilly terrain,
| which is usually far from the seaports that are used for
| trade. Hilly terrain is also often agriculturally subpar,
| therefore you need to import food for the workers from
| the lowland, making the operation more expensive.
|
| Finally, medieval watermills cannot produce heat, which
| is absolutely necessary for production of iron and steel.
| Which means that you cannot increase production of iron
| and steel beyond pre-modern levels, a major obstacle in
| development of technical civilization.
| eru wrote:
| You are right that slavery is economically inefficient
| and that economists were one of the fiercest crusaders
| against slavery etc.
|
| However: lack of demand is not a problem. People can
| create any amount of total nominal demand for basically
| free, as long as you have access to a printing press.
| (And with some minor caveats that's generally true in a
| gold standard setting, too.)
|
| And even without that: your argumentation would suggest
| that as long as the slave-owners lavishly spend the money
| they save on wages, the economy would do just as well as
| without slavery. That's not the case; have a look at the
| arguments of the very economists you mention.
| graemep wrote:
| > slavery or something similar (serfdom etc.)
|
| Serfdom is very different from slavery. Even slavery is
| not always as bad as Roman slavery.
|
| Roman slaves could be legally killed, tortured and raped
| (even children). Serfs might not have fair access to the
| law but at least in theory they had recourse and society
| recognised mistreating them was immoral.
|
| Serfs could (meaningfully) marry. They were tied to the
| land so could not be separated from their families and
| sold elsewhere.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "Serfdom is very different from slavery."
|
| And Mac is very different from a PC, but they are still
| personal computers that pack some computing power...
|
| My wider point was about unfree labor in pre-industrial
| conditions. There were many serf uprisings in Central
| Europe, which indicates that being a serf was sometimes
| very hard to bear.
|
| We are so used to free labor nowadays that we can't
| really imagine a world where the vast majority of the
| population is physically subjugated to some lords.
| graemep wrote:
| My point is that Roman slavery was a lot more brutal than
| what was required by the lack of technology.
|
| I beeeive (I cannot find hard data, although things like
| the Doomsday book should have recorded some snapshots of
| it) while there was a large serf population, it was not
| the "vast majority" as there were also lots of free
| peasants.
|
| Yes, it was a hard life, but far better than their
| equivalents would have suffered under Roman rule.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Was Roman wine better than pre-Roman wine in that region?
|
| If I were to guess, I would say that Roman wine was made
| from grapes, Levantine wine was made from dates, the vast
| majority of wine in the Levant continued to be made from
| dates during Roman rule, and imported Roman wine probably
| cost a lot more than local wine did, making it "better" by
| definition.
| erehweb wrote:
| The "what have the Romans done for us" sketch is partly
| about Rome, but largely a disguised defense of the British
| Empire.
| lazide wrote:
| Indians have a love/hate relationship with the British
| because it really is an apt comparison.
|
| India (as in the country) literally would not exist
| without the British. They were right assholes (to put it
| mildly), but compared to the other colonial powers,
| actually did leave a somewhat useful legacy. And weren't
| _that_ rapacious compared to many others ( _cough_
| Belgium, Spain).
|
| As to how much, if any, that justifies anything is up for
| debate. But Indians would generally hold that debate in
| English, because it _works_.
| graemep wrote:
| Also people who emigrated from India to other British
| colonies benefited - that includes my ancestors.
|
| British rule also got better over time. It also depended
| on your point of view. For low castes it probably did not
| make much difference who ruled - and the British may have
| been better for many of them. Another feature of British
| rule in India (and elsewhere) is that it was only
| possible because of Indian support. The same was true in
| Sri Lanka - Leonard Woolf's account of his time there is
| fascinating and British rule was not maintained by force
| of arms - he comments there were hardly any soldiers
| outside the capital, and the police he relied on were
| "native".
|
| Its not whether it was right or wrong - I do not think
| conquering other people is can be justified. It is that
| it just is and its consequences are inescapable. Its like
| the Roman conquest of Britain and most of the rest of
| Europe. Bad things, can have good consequences.
| Someone wrote:
| > Was Roman wine better than pre-Roman wine in that region?
|
| Not necessarily better, but they made much more of it.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine:
|
| _"Ancient Rome played a pivotal role in the history of
| wine. The earliest influences on the viticulture of the
| Italian Peninsula can be traced to ancient Greeks and the
| Etruscans. The rise of the Roman Empire saw both
| technological advances in and burgeoning awareness of
| winemaking, which spread to all parts of the empire. Rome
| 's influence has had a profound effect on the histories of
| today's major winemaking regions in France, Germany, Italy,
| Portugal and Spain.
|
| The Roman belief that wine was a daily necessity made the
| drink "democratic" and ubiquitous; in various qualities, it
| was available to slaves, peasants and aristocrats, men and
| women alike. To ensure the steady supply of wine to Roman
| soldiers and colonists, viticulture and wine production
| spread to every part of the empire. The economic
| opportunities presented by trading in wine drew merchants
| to do business with tribes native to Gaul and Germania,
| bringing Roman influences to these regions even before the
| arrival of the Roman military. Evidence of this trade and
| the far-reaching ancient wine economy is most often found
| through amphorae - ceramic jars used to store and transport
| wine and other commodities.
|
| [...]
|
| Among the lasting legacies of the ancient Roman empire were
| the viticultural foundations laid by the Romans in lands
| that would become world-renowned wine regions. Through
| trade, military campaigns and settlements, Romans brought
| with them a taste for wine and the impetus to plant vines.
| Trade was the first and farthest-reaching arm of their
| influence, and Roman wine merchants were eager to trade
| with enemy and ally alike--from the Carthaginians and
| peoples of southern Spain to the Celtic tribes in Gaul and
| Germanic tribes of the Rhine and Danube.
|
| During the Gallic Wars, when Julius Caesar brought his
| troops to Cabyllona in 59 BC, he found two Roman wine
| merchants already established in business trading with the
| local tribes. In places like Bordeaux, Mainz, Trier and
| Colchester where Roman garrisons were established,
| vineyards were planted to supply local need and limit the
| cost of long-distance trading. Roman settlements were
| founded and populated by retired soldiers with knowledge of
| Roman viticulture from their families and life before the
| military; vineyards were planted in their new homelands.
| While it is possible that the Romans imported grapevines
| from Italy and Greece, there is sufficient evidence to
| suggest that they cultivated native vines that may be the
| ancestors of the grapes grown in those provinces today"_
| aa-jv wrote:
| See also: witches, and how to detect them. Bonus points for
| recognizing Australians.
| initramfs wrote:
| There's also Father Thames, the River God of London
| https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/1140390
| edm0nd wrote:
| Upright Citizens Brigade also has a few nice bits about the
| Lady of the Lake
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhPXGABqG5w
| BurritoAlPastor wrote:
| Note that, at least in Thomas Malory's telling, the arm holding
| Excalibur out of the lake is _not_ the Lady Of The Lake, who is
| nearby _on_ the lake. The arm holding Excalibur is neither
| named nor explained.
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| Is Thomas Malory of some kind of significance?
|
| Edit: he was apparently one of the primary fanfiction authors
| of the english tradition
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| Sorry maybe I'm dense, but what does the lady of the lake have
| to do with this image aside from a body of water being present?
| DirkH wrote:
| I believe the meme format typically involves asking the tank
| questions as if it were a great sage with wisdom to impart.
|
| So it has to so with the lady of the lake because not only is
| there a body of water but in both cases there is a role for
| paying deference to the entity in the water (Lady or tank).
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| What a funny time when Monty Python and not the various stories
| of Ming Arthur is how people might be most familiar with "the
| lady of the lake."
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| Can tanks work underwater?
| INTPenis wrote:
| Only if they get paid overtime.
| marssaxman wrote:
| Some of them can:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9itXfVSMj0
| wongarsu wrote:
| With a snorkel attached. The engine needs oxygen and dislikes
| water. Both sides of the war invented that capability in the
| early 40s, though obviously not every tank had the capability.
|
| It's also a great example of the doctrines and tradeoffs of
| different armies. For example Russian tanks usually have space-
| efficient thin snorkels, while modern Western tanks have wide
| snorkels that double as a way for the crew to escape if they
| get stuck while driving submerged
| Deprogrammer9 wrote:
| new to me, kinda lame meme lol
| rcarmo wrote:
| The fact that this extraordinarily obscure question had such a
| thoroughly researched and intricately detailed answer almost
| restores my faith in Internet forums.
| asveikau wrote:
| Helps that it tickles a few things that people in subcultures
| get very nerdy about: military topics, WWII, etc.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| When I toured Jacques Littlefield's Tank Ranch they had, what I
| believe to be, this exact tank. They told the story of how it had
| been lost in the river and sat there and they went to see if it
| was still there and arranged to get it removed and returned to
| California where they restored it.
|
| If someone was so motivated, they could probably go back to the
| internet archives of the auction that happened after Jacques died
| to find a picture of both the restored tank and its providence.
| muststopmyths wrote:
| The stack exchange link and the article about the search say it
| was recovered in 1941
| noahlt wrote:
| This entire deep dive is great. I feel compelled to call out this
| heroism:
|
| > 1st Lieutenant de Wispelaere had prepared the bridge for
| demolition ... De Wispelaere immediately pushed the electrical
| ignition, but there was no explosion... Wispelaere now left his
| shelter and worked the manual ignition device. Trying to get back
| to his bunker, he was hit by a burst from a German machine gun
| and fell to the ground, mortally wounded. At the same time, the
| explosive charge went off.
| nate321 wrote:
| This is also mentioned in the ConeOfArc video linked on
| stackexchange. However, at 4:17 in the video, the speaker shows
| a sign describing two versions of the event. In the first
| version, Wispelaere died due to a German shell (not a machine
| gun). In the second version, he was killed by the explosion of
| the detonating device after shortening the fuse ("l'explosion
| du dispositif de mise a feu"; not sure how to translate this
| exactly).
| ctchocula wrote:
| There's a similar scene in "For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Ernest
| Hemingway.
| mewse-hn wrote:
| I think this is basically the final scene from "The Bridge on
| the River Kwai" movie as well
| moffkalast wrote:
| "Panzer of the Lake, what is your origin?"
|
| "Krupp factory in Essen, apparently."
| jknoepfler wrote:
| I love the train of comments confidently but incorrectly
| identifying the tank (there are at least three highly-specific,
| different identifications given which use words like "definitely"
| and make claims to expertise).
| endoblast wrote:
| Don't know the origin of the image but I wonder if it formed the
| inspiration for _this_ iconic hostile emergence from the River
| Thames:
|
| https://shorturl.at/yGKOg
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