[HN Gopher] Biological Miracle - Wood Frog
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Biological Miracle - Wood Frog
Author : thunderbong
Score : 191 points
Date : 2024-11-15 18:16 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nps.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nps.gov)
| pwdiscflatmajor wrote:
| I now know why I require so much sugar and sweets: I am a wood
| frog preparing for hibernation!
| sudobash1 wrote:
| There are no pictures of the frogs in this article. For pictures
| (of thawed and frozen frogs) you can see:
| https://shakerlakes.org/frozen-frogs/
| olejorgenb wrote:
| From the linked video: timelapse of the thawing process:
| https://youtu.be/pLPeehsXAr4?t=176
| chasil wrote:
| They also have a wiki, but not many photos. One photo is from
| Quebec.
|
| The wiki also mentions that urea is produced, in addition to
| glucose, and both act as cryoprotectants.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_frog
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Looks like a normal (frozen) frog to me
| moralestapia wrote:
| Fascinating phenomena, thanks a lot for sharing!
| metalman wrote:
| cant even call that hibernation. There are other knock on
| advantages to bieng frozen solid, it would slow down and even
| kill a lot of infectious microbes.It may convey a certain life
| extension benifit. And threre is not much behavioral adaptation
| needed,frog gets chilly, snuggles under a leaf,freezes solid,
| gets defrosted 8 months later and wakes up hungry and horny, not
| bad.
| duskwuff wrote:
| > it would slow down and even kill a lot of infectious microbes
|
| I wouldn't count on it killing them. The cryoprotectants in the
| frog's body don't discriminate; they'll protect foreign
| bacteria just as well as the frog's cells.
| metalman wrote:
| I should of elaborated, many of the issues associated
| with,"conventional hibernation" have to do with lethal
| infections aquired externaly while hibernating, damp, cold,
| ....mold as to the cryoprotectants ,side protecting microbes,
| clearly gut microbes and other internal flora ,would
| benifit......but ,big but, would a sneeky cryosuspension
| routine also include a freeze and clense cycle?, why not! and
| easy enough to verify,right!
| flir wrote:
| > It may convey a certain life extension benefit.
|
| I think it would be more interesting if it _doesn 't_ affect
| lifespan. It would be a really counter-intuitive result (to
| me).
| killjoywashere wrote:
| Evolutionarily, amphibians are somewhat simpler than mammals,
| they're smaller than a lot of mammals and they don't live as
| long, so I suspect some of this is simply that "things that
| aren't there". They wouldn't have as many problems with advanced
| glycation end products because the temperature is so low. There's
| at least one other ice survival strategy: antifreeze proteins.
| The fir tree and a variety of arctic fish have these:
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6691018/.
|
| In all cases, I still don't understand how the membrane
| potentials are maintained or re-constructed in the thawing phase:
| any pointers?
| monkeycantype wrote:
| Perhaps because ice forms outside cells, freezing ions in
| place. Even if there was a very small area around ion channels
| that was liquid that equalized all ion concentrations with the
| cell, when the extra cellular fluid thaws the original
| concentrations would be pretty much restored
| pkoird wrote:
| Curious to how long the frozen structure can "survive". I wonder
| if it's a good idea to freeze one such frog and thaw it centuries
| later (an amphibian time-traveler!)
| olejorgenb wrote:
| - Artificial experiment [1]: no longer than 3 months (but see
| disclaimer)
|
| - New study [2]: 7 months (with 100% survival rate)
|
| So further study seems to be needed.
|
| [1]
| https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/216/18/3461/1160...
|
| [2]
| https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/217/12/2193/1211...
| megiddo wrote:
| Not one photo of said frog.
|
| Look, new rule: you write an article about frogs, you include a
| photo.
| jjcm wrote:
| here's an illustration of one:
| https://image.non.io/e9078e7d-5eb4-4787-9fe2-d7068d01a4df.we...
| daredoes wrote:
| this was really helpful! thanks!
| sgt wrote:
| But the article explains perfectly how they look like. White
| eyes, glucose filled cells, frozen solid as a rock. Bang it
| against a table, it's definitely frozen. Throw it back
| underneath those leaves.
| speerer wrote:
| Like the Tree Octopus?
| soco wrote:
| I really expected a wood(en) frog here, qualifying truly as a
| biological miracle. But the wood frogs are cool as well.
| furyofantares wrote:
| Oh god. This made me wonder, what _is_ wood, anyway? And I 've
| just come away much more confused.
|
| Bamboo is a grass and doesn't come from a tree. Palm wood comes
| from palm trees, except palm tree trunks are apparently a
| totally different type of structure than other tree trunks,
| sounds closer to Papyrus. No growth rings, a fiber type
| structure. Is Papyrus wood?
|
| Any plant matter above a certain density? I don't think that's
| it. Corn stalks aren't wood.
|
| Man, I don't know. I am certain that it must be plant matter
| though, so yes, a wooden frog would be a biological miracle.
| yial wrote:
| Wood is secondary xylem produced by growth from the vascular
| Cambium. (Sometimes? I think the issue is that there's more
| than one definition of wood depending on context ...?).
| Growth rings?
|
| But palm trees aren't truly trees, right ? Just called
| trees.... They're more of a tree like shrub? I think.
| furyofantares wrote:
| Trying to learn about this through claude was kinda funny.
|
| Ask it to tell me about wood that doesn't come from trees,
| and it tells me about palm wood. I say, but doesn't that
| come from palm trees? It says palm trees aren't technically
| trees because their trunk isn't wooden.
|
| Anyway, with your definition palm wood wouldn't be wood,
| and neither would bamboo. Feels like the vegetable/fruit
| thing though, there just isn't a perfect answer.
| mawise wrote:
| It's worse than that. _Tree_ isn't even a well-defined thing.
|
| > Trees are not a monophyletic taxonomic group but consist of
| a wide variety of plant species that have independently
| evolved a trunk and branches as a way to tower above other
| plants to compete for sunlight.[1]
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree
| the_arun wrote:
| Nicely written article. A few pictures could have made it more
| interesting.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| Someone tell Alcor about this.
| dexwiz wrote:
| Wood frogs only live 3-5 years, so they probably only go through
| a max of 5 of these cycles. I wonder how much cellular damage
| they accumulate during these cycles that they can tolerate due to
| short lifespans. They also have ~10,000x less neurons than a
| mammal.
|
| Even if you had the biochemistry that was able to do this, how
| many cycles could a higher life form tolerate this, assuming it
| would even work? Complex life seems to sacrifice some resiliency,
| such as the ability to regrow limbs. Amphibians already seem to
| be particularly adept at regeneration.
| e44858 wrote:
| "frogs don't freeze once and stay frozen. Instead, they spend a
| week or two freezing at night and thawing during the day until
| the temperatures drop permanently below freezing"
|
| https://shakerlakes.org/frozen-frogs/
| MPSimmons wrote:
| like maple syrup...
| croisillon wrote:
| reminds me of the New Avengers episode "the eagle's nest"
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0659325/
| redundantly wrote:
| > ...the wood frog's liver produces large amounts of glucose that
| flushes into every cell in its body. This syrupy sugar solution
| prevents the cells from freezing...
|
| All natural, no preservatives added, sweetened frog popsicles!
| Yummy!
| olddustytrail wrote:
| Ok, this is what you really wanted:
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p091w1b3
| imglorp wrote:
| Aquatic turtles have another brumination (hibernation) strategy.
| Since they breathe air, yet may get trapped under the ice for
| months at at time, they lower their metabolism plus have
| adaptations such as scavenging some oxygen from the water via
| rectal tissues as well as other chemical activity involving
| glucose and calcium.
|
| https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/the-secret-to-turtle-hi...
|
| https://wildlifeinwinter.com/painted-turtle
|
| I have one at home in constant warm water, yet she can see the
| sky and decides to bruminate on her own: every year around this
| time, she starts napping in her under water hide for days or
| weeks at a time.
| card_zero wrote:
| That's a word I don't know (and neither do you): brumation,
| invented in 1965.
|
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brumation
|
| The verb ought to be _brumate._ But I guess the desire to pull
| it into line with _hibernation_ is strong, this happens with
| lots of words. (Or was the influence from "rumination"?)
| Loughla wrote:
| Our tortoise, even though he's in a very comfortable climate
| controlled indoor pen, tries to dig a hole every year to do the
| same.
|
| He's not very smart but he tries hard.
| zardo wrote:
| How are they thawing from the inside out?
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Now I'm wondering all kinds of things about their brain. Are they
| capable of forming memories, and would they retain those memories
| after a freeze/thaw cycle?
|
| Effectively they're dead when they freeze. I'm assuming there's
| no brain activity.. Which means when they thaw they're being
| restored to life. I wonder if any other animals experience this
| card_zero wrote:
| Reading about them, it seems they migrate in winter (like half
| a mile uphill), but the adults always return to the same
| breeding pond in spring, so that information is stored
| somewhere.
| userbinator wrote:
| Hibernate and resume.
| mathh wrote:
| Could such a mechanism be used for interstellar travel ?
| tantalor wrote:
| > wood frogs spend the winter frozen
|
| > syrupy sugar solution prevents the cells from freezing
|
| So they don't freeze. This is click bait.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| Why does it only count if the cells themselves freeze? Also, am
| I still allowed to play freeze tag, or do we need to rename
| that?
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(page generated 2024-11-15 23:00 UTC)