[HN Gopher] Notes on Guyana
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Notes on Guyana
        
       Author : impish9208
       Score  : 92 points
       Date   : 2024-11-08 21:44 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (mattlakeman.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (mattlakeman.org)
        
       | profsummergig wrote:
       | Some things I was shocked to learn when I first learned these a
       | couple decades ago (from a Guyanese girl I was seeing in the
       | U.S.):
       | 
       | - Guayana and nearby places were British colonies.
       | 
       | - there's a vast Indian (i.e. descended from India) population in
       | Guyana and nearby places brought over by the British as
       | "indentured workers" (for some reason, Indians were never
       | officially called "slaves" by the British) in sugarcane
       | plantations. (Interesting to me because I'm from India).
       | 
       | - Guyana speaks English.
       | 
       | - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English.
       | There are also countries that mainly speak French.
       | 
       | - Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. though
       | they are "Anglo". In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick
       | and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity,
       | as it suits them.
       | 
       | - My favorite Salsa dance teacher in the U.S. has the last name
       | "Persaud" and looks "Latino". Took me about 15 years to realize
       | he was of Indian stock (though might be mixed with Latino).
       | 
       | - if Guyana had lower crime, and a well-organized economy, I'd
       | move there in a heartbeat. They speak English, have good weather,
       | and have massive oil deposits.
        
         | ks2048 wrote:
         | > Guyana speaks English.
         | 
         | The article says "My major historical sources include a 1992 US
         | Military-commissioned study of Guyana and Belize. No, I have no
         | idea why they lumped those two countries together"
         | 
         | This seems to be the connection: only mainland countries south
         | of USA primarily English speaking. (Of course both related to
         | British colonialism)
        
         | Rygian wrote:
         | When you say good weather, where would you place Guyana in this
         | map? https://xkcd.com/1916/
        
           | profsummergig wrote:
           | Thanks for the link. I'm keeping it for future reference. My
           | ideal weather is "slightly warm and slightly humid" all the
           | time. Alas, I live in a place where we have 7 months of
           | winter each year. One day....
        
         | neves wrote:
         | Its neighbor, French Guyana is French territory. Thanks to
         | that, Brazil is the country with the largest border to France.
        
           | walterbell wrote:
           | Equatorial launch site for French space program.
        
         | pkd wrote:
         | One additional bit of context on the Indian indentured labour
         | is that crossing the seas was considered a great taboo among
         | Hindus, leading to a loss of your "caste" because you had lost
         | contact with the holy land. So only the very desperate and
         | destitute were willing to take this deal. Or the adventurous.
         | 
         | The British Cellular Jail on the Andaman Islands were
         | considered double jeopardy because of this as well.
        
           | walterbell wrote:
           | Does this apply today to construction workers in the Middle
           | East, whose families remain in SE Asia?
        
             | aatharuv wrote:
             | That taboo is long since gone (I'm assuming you're talking
             | about South Asia, though).
        
         | jcranmer wrote:
         | > - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak
         | English. There are also countries that mainly speak French.
         | 
         | "Latin America" has multiple definitions. Most of those
         | definitions do exclude English-speaking Belize and Guyana (and
         | Dutch-speaking Suriname).
        
           | profsummergig wrote:
           | Ah yes, Dutch too!
           | 
           | Imagine explaining this to middle-America.
        
           | meiraleal wrote:
           | "Latin America" is an US-American invention. It is all
           | America. The US is just one of the American countries (and
           | culture, which is very similar to the other American
           | countries but rich).
        
             | lentil_soup wrote:
             | Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term
             | "Latino" is, though. Latin America is just a term for the
             | countries in America colonised by romance language
             | countries. As the sibling comment says the exact definition
             | varies, but wouldn't say it's a US invention.
             | 
             | What you say about the US just being one of the American
             | countries is correct, and it's often a source of confusion
             | (intended or not)
        
               | meiraleal wrote:
               | > Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term
               | "Latino" is, though
               | 
               | You are right. But also the term Latino "creates" Latin
               | America, which are the countries Latinos come from. And
               | then also a subculture of immigrants in the US, which
               | funnily is a bit excluding of Brazilians as not real
               | Latinos (as there is also a expectation that everybody
               | below the US speaks Spanish).
        
               | foogazi wrote:
               | > You are right.
               | 
               | You should have stopped right there.
               | 
               | Latino is a US term to refer to people in the US by their
               | origin.
               | 
               | Outside of the US people use Latinoamerica to refer to
               | the central and South American former colonies of France,
               | Portugal and Spain.
               | 
               | Iberoamerica is used too if you want to be more specific
               | and exclude the French colonies
        
               | jowea wrote:
               | > Iberoamerica is used too if you want to be more
               | specific and exclude the French colonies
               | 
               | Oh yeah it's very funny when you start the "actually
               | Quebec is part of Latin America, but the Guyanas aren't,
               | except for French Guiana, which isn't actually a country,
               | and about Louisiana...."
        
               | meiraleal wrote:
               | That is why we get back to "Latin America" doesn't exist
               | :) It is all America, for the grievance of US Americans.
        
               | lentil_soup wrote:
               | No, Latino is a US person of latinoamerican origin, it's
               | something they invented. For example, I am latin
               | american, but don't consider myself Latino since I'm from
               | South America, but not from the US.
               | 
               | It's a bit of a complex issue since it's the US taking
               | over a term or culture and normalising it as the only
               | valid one.
        
         | stonesthrowaway wrote:
         | > for some reason, Indians were never officially called
         | "slaves" by the British
         | 
         | The same goes for chinese, japanese and filipino "slaves". In
         | official capacity, they may not have been called slaves, but
         | unofficially, they were. There are old portguese books that
         | claimed japanese made the best slaves. And there was a british
         | viceroy who claimed indians made the best slaves.
         | 
         | > Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S.
         | 
         | Maybe in official documents but certainly not in everyday life.
         | Guyanese are considered and treated like indians or 'hindus'
         | and they themselves view themselves as indians, not hispanic.
        
         | foogazi wrote:
         | > In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose
         | what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it
         | suits them.
         | 
         | I thought everyone could do this
        
         | wslh wrote:
         | > - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak
         | English.
         | 
         | Which one?
        
           | teractiveodular wrote:
           | Guyana and Belize.
        
         | petesergeant wrote:
         | > for some reason, Indians were never officially called
         | "slaves" by the British
         | 
         | An indentured worker and a slave are not the same thing. While
         | one would prefer to be neither of those things, generally the
         | former voluntarily entered into the arrangement (or in lieu of
         | prison), were bound for a fixed term, weren't considered
         | property, and had at least some legal recourse. Were some
         | indentured workers de-facto slaves? Almost certainly. That
         | doesn't mean they were the same thing though.
        
         | Affric wrote:
         | Indentured labour was done by contract for a fixed period, and
         | they were paid. For people who believe that there was workers
         | who got on the ships through their own agency this is
         | important. This undoubtedly happened along with those who were
         | compelled or deceived.
         | 
         | Frankly, I think the reason that it is not more often referred
         | to as slavery is because it wasn't officially referred to as
         | such contemporaneously. But there is legitimate debate around
         | the differences between Indian indentured servitude and
         | slavery.
        
           | shazzy wrote:
           | To add to this, Indians could choose to return back home to
           | India after their contract was over. Of course lots decided
           | to stay, but some did return.
        
       | ks2048 wrote:
       | > GDP growth rate (2022) - 63.4% (not a typo)
       | 
       | Wow
        
         | letitgo12345 wrote:
         | They found tons of oil
        
         | grotorea wrote:
         | Struck black gold, complete with neighbour envy
        
       | MichaelZuo wrote:
       | I've always heard intimations that Guyana was worse than French
       | Guyana or Suriname as a tourist destination, but yeah this seems
       | really surprisingly bad as a tourist destination...
        
         | walterbell wrote:
         | 1989, poorest country in the Western Hemisphere,
         | https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of...
        
         | frankdenbow wrote:
         | Lots of beautiful spots to see in the interior, Kaiteur is the
         | highest single drop waterfall in the world. Baganara Island is
         | a good vacation spot. Don't believe everything you read on the
         | internet.
        
         | jcranmer wrote:
         | Considering that the author is doing a blog series on visiting
         | some of the more out-of-the-way places, I spent most of the
         | piece wondering when he'd stop talking about the history and
         | actually go on about the things he saw.
         | 
         | When that list amounts to "I booked it to the next country
         | because I exhausted everything worth doing in a day", coming
         | from someone who tries hard to do interesting stuff well off
         | the beaten path... it really sounds like the only reason to go
         | to that country is to check it off the list of the countries to
         | visit. Yikes.
        
         | SamPatt wrote:
         | I follow a few popular travellers on YouTube and they had
         | almost identical experiences.
         | 
         | Here's hoping their new oil wealth will improve their
         | infrastructure and reduce crime.
        
       | colesantiago wrote:
       | Interesting, what are the opportunities to make money from
       | Guyana, it is understood that they have lots of oil and they have
       | the fastest growing GDP of any country.
       | 
       | Any ideas?
        
         | walterbell wrote:
         | Exxon & Chevron.
         | 
         | https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-...
         | 
         | https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-...
        
         | profsummergig wrote:
         | For some reason the current leader of Guyana (who has a muslim
         | name) hangs out a lot with India's Modi (who is an open
         | islamophobe). A strange set of bedfellows.
         | 
         | Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over
         | oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a
         | lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there.
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_terri...
        
           | kylehotchkiss wrote:
           | How did Ghana get pulled into this?
        
             | profsummergig wrote:
             | Oops, typos. Corrected. Thanks.
        
           | unmole wrote:
           | > India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe
           | 
           | Someone should tell the Emiratis and Saudis. They keep
           | hanging out with him and signing deals.
        
           | alephnerd wrote:
           | > Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela
           | over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to
           | build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there
           | 
           | Ali studied in India so that probably played a significant
           | role.
           | 
           | More critically, India's ONGC and Reliance have signifant
           | stakes in Venezuela's ONG industry, and act as a mediator
           | between Guyana and Venezuela.
           | 
           | Guyana is also trying to become a major ONG exporter now, and
           | the biggest greenfield market for that is now India.
        
       | sdlkj- wrote:
       | Being Guyanese in tech is an interesting experience. FWIW I have
       | yet to meet another Guyanese person at work. In every workplace I
       | go to the experience is similar - initially the south asian folks
       | approach me, but then once they realize we're not that culturally
       | similar I end up in a sort of limbo. Not to say that folks aren't
       | welcoming, but every large company ends up having sort of
       | cultural cliques, and I never seem to fit into any of them.
       | 
       | Curious if there are any other Guyanese folks out there who're
       | willing to share their experience.
        
         | profsummergig wrote:
         | Indian here. I've never fit in any of the traditional Indian
         | cliques. Such a blessing! At the end of the day, you're going
         | to lose your individuality over the group or sub-group you're
         | identifying with. And you're going to be pulled into their
         | politics and drama. Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of
         | solitude and dis-identification with any group, in order to be
         | able to become the individual you are meant to be. And thank
         | your stars that none of the traditional Indian cliques wants
         | you.
        
           | sdlkj- wrote:
           | Hah, appreciate the response. Being able to stay out the
           | drama is nice - though I do find my self sometimes craving
           | the support structures and sense of belonging that these
           | cliques provide. Especially when at work all I hear around me
           | is Mandarin or Hindi, in the hallways, at lunch, essentially
           | in any context except full-on work meetings where it almost
           | feels like they're _forced_ to speak English for me.
        
             | profsummergig wrote:
             | My 0.02 cents on this issue: it is terribly rude to speak
             | Mandarin or Hindi, when in a mixed group setting at work,
             | in the USA. Be happy you didn't become one of these rude
             | people. Support structures... I get it. It does help to
             | have a sort of extended-family sometimes. Here's what I've
             | found helpful: get into an activity where such support
             | structures organically form. And you can have the support
             | structure without attendant ethno-centric drama and
             | politics.
             | 
             | There are also downsides to being in these ethnocentric
             | cliques. Know the crabs in a bucket effect, and the saying
             | about how you can't become a prophet in your own town.
             | There's a strong anchoring effect your own people have
             | regarding you. When they see you rising up, they wonder why
             | you're succeeding and they're not, and try to drag you down
             | (instead of celebrating your rise). There's a strong
             | hierarchy within these cliques, and you're not supposed to
             | break-out of your "correct position" in the hierarchy.
             | 
             | Also, if it helps to know this: I have relatives who are
             | thick in the middle of their Indian cliques. What do they
             | do when they're not with their clique-members? Trash-talk
             | about them.
        
               | sdlkj- wrote:
               | I appreciate the response, and it does indeed help. Maybe
               | I'm not missing out on much after all.
               | 
               | The activity is good advice. Some of my closest friends
               | I've meet though hobbies I enjoyed - I'll just need to
               | apply the same strategy, though it definitely feels
               | tougher to do without having school as a crutch to force
               | socializing.
        
           | em-bee wrote:
           | i left my home country and generally stayed away from most
           | expat groups primarily to get away from the people i was
           | being identified with and pretty much avoid all the things
           | you mention.
        
         | easton wrote:
         | My dad's side of the family is indo-guyanese (and he was
         | specifically in tech for his whole career). It's interesting,
         | they've (and I, to a lesser extent) reported something similar,
         | where every once in a great while people from India will
         | recognize our last name and then slowly realize we don't have
         | much in common culturally. Our food is "caribbean-indian" for
         | instance (apparently Trinidad has something similar), it's kind
         | of different than what you'd get from in a regular Indian
         | restaurant.
         | 
         | The comment the author made about the caste system not coming
         | to Guyana tracks too, my aunt has encountered people making
         | quips about it at work every once in a blue moon.
        
         | frankdenbow wrote:
         | Well hello, fellow Guyanese in tech. My grandmother got the
         | Cacique crown of honor (second highest civilian honor in the
         | country) https://guyanachronicle.com/2017/02/05/outstanding-
         | doctor-en...
         | 
         | I remember being lectured that I was latino since Guyana is in
         | latin america and I had to explain that, nah.
        
         | walterbell wrote:
         | Check out this tech podcast, https://securityconversations.com
        
           | sdlkj- wrote:
           | Wow, this is the first tech podcast I've ever found with a
           | guyanese host - also interestingly they appear to have a
           | carribbean-focused cricket site that appears to be still
           | maintained:
           | 
           | https://caribbeancricket.com/
        
         | darrelld wrote:
         | Born Guyanese, but only lived there until I was 3, then we
         | moved to St. Lucia. Have lots of memories from visiting over
         | summers and Christmas multiple times when I was a kid.
         | 
         | Mostly consider myself Lucian and I feel like I've assimilated
         | into the American tech population. My history now is just a
         | interesting fun fact. Don't meet too many people from the
         | Caribbean in general in tech circles, so it's always fun to get
         | a reminder that they're out there.
        
         | shazzy wrote:
         | I am British born, with Trinidadian and Guyanese parents. I've
         | had a very similar experience, not just in tech but throughout
         | all areas of my life. I look Indian, but culturally it's very
         | different.
         | 
         | Everyone always (perhaps South Asians more commonly) asks where
         | I'm from. I say I'm British. They ask "no, really". I say
         | Trinidadian and Guyanese heritage. They say "you look like you
         | are from India, your family must be from India". It does get a
         | bit tiresome.
         | 
         | The only time it actually _really_ annoys me is when I have to
         | fill out forms with ethnicity. There is never Asian-Caribbean,
         | but always Black-Caribbean, so I always feel that I am never
         | being represented.
        
           | itronitron wrote:
           | I used to work with a carpenter from Trinidad. This was in
           | the southern US, and at an employer where I was probably the
           | only college educated person. I recall them as being very
           | professional but able to socialize easily with everyone else,
           | and they were also insanely good at chess.
        
           | sdlkj- wrote:
           | I've had a near identical experience, every ethnicity form is
           | makes me feel like I'm lying a little.
        
           | Affric wrote:
           | I don't fit in their boxes so generally I go with "prefer not
           | to say".
        
           | kagolaub wrote:
           | Born Canadian with Jamaican and Guyanese parents. Identical
           | experience.
        
           | qcoco wrote:
           | Despite externally-incited ethnic conflict, Guyana was a
           | comparatively post-tribal melting pot of cultures. Outside
           | Guyana, not so much.                 Are you from India?
           | West Indies | South America | Guyana       Where are your
           | parents from?         A couple hundred years ago, my
           | ancestors left India       Oh <disappointed>         [every
           | time: wait, what if I had said yes? nevermind]
        
       | walterbell wrote:
       | 2023 oil earnings by Guyana: $30 billion GYD       2023 oil
       | company (Exxon, Chevron, China National) profits from Guyana:
       | $1.3 trillion GYD
       | 
       | https://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2024/10/15/exxon-says-don...
       | 
       |  _> Exxon is the operator of the Stabroek Block, with 45%
       | interest, Hess Guyana Exploration Ltd. holds 30% interest and
       | China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) Petroleum Guyana
       | Limited holds 25% interest. Last year, the three companies earned
       | $1.3 trillion in profits - entirely tax-free in Guyana.. the
       | Stabroek Block partners are allowed to recover 75% of the oil
       | produced to recover their investment costs, the remaining 25% is
       | considered profit, which is split between Guyana and the Stabroek
       | Block consortium, giving each 12.5%.
       | 
       | > However, the consortium pays a 2% royalty from its share to
       | Guyana. From its 14.5% Guyana then has to pay taxes for the oil
       | companies... for 2023, the Government of Guyana (GoG) had to pay
       | the combined sum of $306 billion in income taxes for ExxonMobil
       | Guyana Limited and its Stabroek Block partners, Hess and CNOOC
       | according to the companies' audited financial statements, while
       | for the same period Guyana earned $336 billion from its oil._
        
         | profsummergig wrote:
         | Unsustainable. Things will probably change after enough
         | Guyanese find out.
        
         | blackhawkC17 wrote:
         | For those wondering, these figures are quoted in the Guyanese
         | dollar, not the U.S. dollar.
         | 
         | 1 Guyanese dollar equals 0.0048 USD.
        
       | smallerfish wrote:
       | If you like travelogues, Wild Coast by John Gimlette is a great
       | read.
       | 
       | And, Alex Rothman, youtuber, used Gimlette as a source for (well
       | produced!) videos he made both about Sri Lanka and Guyana. E.g.
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830
        
       | dividendpayee wrote:
       | This reminds me of another blog I enjoyed -- there's a link
       | shortener called https://y.gy, and .gy is the Guayanese TLD.
       | Venezuela was invading Guyana, so the y.gy owner wrote a whole
       | essay about what it would mean for the .gy domain if Venezuela
       | seizes their physical domain admin infrastructure. Crazy stuff.
       | https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war
        
         | meiraleal wrote:
         | > Venezuela was invading Guyana
         | 
         | Venezuela was threatening to invade Guyana*
        
       | iask wrote:
       | Guyana is considered part of the Caribbean because they speak
       | 100% English...well creole English (broken English) to be
       | precise.
       | 
       | Just like American Indians, the natives there are called
       | Amerindian.
       | 
       | There's also a huge Dutch history...dating back to the 1600 if I
       | remember correctly.
       | 
       | WOW! It's amazing to see Guyana mentioned on HN.
       | 
       | If you rally want to know Guyanese, get invited to one of our
       | parties. Fun and down-to-earth folks...well most, some can
       | definitely carry a massive ego seed.
       | 
       | If you haven't met anyone in tech - greetings! A pleasure to meet
       | you. 20 years building successful companies and products in the
       | USA.
       | 
       | Wakenaam - Dutch - "Waiting for a name".
        
         | foogazi wrote:
         | > There's also a huge Dutch history
         | 
         | I thought Suriname was the Dutch Guyana
        
       | wslh wrote:
       | Could someone who is more English fluent clarify this statement?
       | 
       | > (including individuals of the male, female, black, Indian,
       | white, Chinese, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, and Jewish persuasion)
       | 
       | What "persuasion" means in this context?
       | 
       | > ...Janet Rosenberg, who to my knowledge is the only Jewish
       | female head-of-government (and later state) in history outside of
       | Israel (and more recently, Mexico).
       | 
       | There is one more, see:
       | <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss>.
        
         | dcminter wrote:
         | > What "persuasion" means in this context?
         | 
         | "Of the ... persuasion" is a slightly fancy way of saying "who
         | are ..."
        
         | munificent wrote:
         | In this context, "persuasion" is an idiom just means something
         | like "background" "has this attribute".
         | 
         | It doesn't have anything to do with the typical meaning of
         | "persuade" because English is weird.
        
           | marssaxman wrote:
           | In older writing, one would have used the phrase literally,
           | to describe someone's religious or political affiliation:
           | beliefs one could have been "persuaded" to adopt. One might
           | refer to a preacher "of the Methodist persuasion", say.
           | 
           | The modern usage of the idiom came about as a joke - as
           | though someone's sex or ethnic heritage were merely a matter
           | of preference. Over time, the original sense has been
           | forgotten, and the humor has been lost through repetition, so
           | it is now just an odd phrase.
        
             | embedded_hiker wrote:
             | The US TV show "All in the Family" in the early 70s
             | included the character Archie Bunker, who was an outspoken
             | bigot. This might have been the origin of using "the
             | Oriental persuasion" as a joke. My parents thought it was
             | hilarious, and explained the joke to me. Yes, since then,
             | that usage has leaked from being humor to being used in the
             | sense above.
        
       | wslh wrote:
       | I wonder, what relatively affordable flights you can get to
       | Guyana? For example, I cannot find flights from Sao Paulo or Rio
       | de Janeiro.
        
         | sdlkj- wrote:
         | That is surprising - considering how close they are. I've
         | always ended up flying out of New York or Toronto, at what I'd
         | consider reasonable prices. I suspect it's because of the
         | sizable expat/2nd/3rd gen population in the northeast.
        
       | kgbcia wrote:
       | Good read, sent it to my Kindle. It was the CIA who messed up
       | that country in the modern era. Glad they found oil and now have
       | insane GDP growth. Hope they don't ruin the Amazon rainforest
       | nearby. Hope the racial tensions ease down and infrastructure is
       | built up, so I can visit one day.
        
         | blackhawkC17 wrote:
         | > Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth.
         | 
         | Guyana has weak political institutions and high corruption &
         | tribalism. It's more likely to become a poor resource-cursed
         | nation than a successful one.
         | 
         | I truly hope this isn't the case, but if history teaches us a
         | lesson..
        
           | PittleyDunkin wrote:
           | What country on earth is strong on protection from corruption
           | and tribalism? Point out the country and I'll point out the
           | nature of the above.
        
             | blackhawkC17 wrote:
             | No country is 100% immune to it. But some countries have
             | developed systems to tame the effects as much as possible.
             | 
             | Examples are most of Western Europe, the U.S., and Canada.
             | There's a clear correlation between low corruption and high
             | economic development.
        
               | PittleyDunkin wrote:
               | I can't speak to western europe, but the clear devotion
               | the US and Canada have to capital makes this difficult to
               | buy as a general difference. I suspect the distinction in
               | corruption between the west and the rest of the world
               | must come from a working person's perspective.
               | 
               | And I would _love_ to hear from any non-westerners here
               | as I suspect it 's impossible to get a meaningful
               | evaluation from the west.
        
               | Affric wrote:
               | Count up the number of bribes you have had to pay as a
               | normal working person in the west.
               | 
               | Places with big corruption problems have people demanding
               | bribes at every turn.
        
               | PittleyDunkin wrote:
               | That's what I'm saying--corruption looks different in
               | different places but society still bends towards the cash
        
               | blackhawkC17 wrote:
               | I'm a non-Westerner (Nigerian in particular). Corruption
               | in developing/underdeveloped countries is extremely worse
               | than in developed countries.
               | 
               | My country is a fitting example. Most citizens (of all
               | classes) don't pay taxes, people pay petty bribes to
               | violate laws, government officers request for bribes to
               | carry out mundane activities like getting a driver's
               | license or passport, and citizens are happy to oblige.
               | 
               | Everyone wants to bypass the law and feel smart, not
               | realizing that it makes the whole system terrible and
               | everyone poorer in the long run (people generally don't
               | want to make long-term capital investments in corrupt
               | countries, so that's why most of Africa struggles to get
               | foreign investment).
               | 
               | This kind of petty corruption is hard to explain to a
               | Westerner who hasn't experienced it. And it's no surprise
               | that corruption is keeping African nations (and many
               | nations from other continents) behind.
        
               | PittleyDunkin wrote:
               | I appreciate your comment. I presume you prefer the west
               | (at least in terms of political and economic stability)
               | to your home country from your comment. Do you have any
               | concerns about how capital openly purchases the interests
               | of politicians in the us? I guess I had written off the
               | difference in citizen comfort to the mountains of cash
               | americans roll around on.
        
               | blackhawkC17 wrote:
               | > Do you have any concerns about how capital openly
               | purchases the interests of politicians in the us?
               | 
               | The U.S. and the West at large aren't perfect, but it
               | fairs much better than most of the world in preventing
               | corruption.
               | 
               | Capital also purchases influence in
               | developing/underdeveloped countries, but in a much worse
               | way. It's often very cheap because desperate locals are
               | willing to sell out their country for any meager amount.
               | 
               | Here's a fitting example: Benny Steinmetz (a mining
               | tycoon) paid $8.5 million in bribes to the spouse of
               | Guinea's former President to obtain exploration permits
               | for a mine [1].
               | 
               | Steinmetz sold 51% of the mine shortly after for $2.5
               | billion [2]. In other words, he extracted 300x the bribe,
               | and the Guinean official never bothered to think her
               | country was being robbed in broad daylight by the bribe
               | she received.
               | 
               | Many similar cases occur in Africa, wherein foreign
               | companies pay cheap bribes to rob countries of their
               | resources.
               | 
               | The African leaders (and populace) are often willing to
               | part with their resources for cash rather than harnessing
               | it for internal development (this part is difficult,
               | unlike the easy way of collecting cash and spending it
               | foolishly).
               | 
               | Add in endless petty corruption, and the result is the
               | mediocrity of many countries that we see.
               | 
               | 1- https://www.reuters.com/business/swiss-court-upholds-
               | corrupt...
               | 
               | 2 - https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-1000556396#!
        
       | fracus wrote:
       | I would have bet a lot of money that Guyana was a country
       | somewhere in Africa. I'm so surprised to find out it is South
       | America. The article was a good read.
        
         | walterbell wrote:
         | At one time, partnered with North Korea!
         | 
         | https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258
         | 
         |  _> Mass Games in North Korea.. are without comparison the
         | largest choreographed performance in the world.. There are
         | three central components.. gymnastics, music, and the panoramic
         | backdrop.. The backdrop is created through tens of thousands of
         | children aligned in one side of the stadium seats holding books
         | of illustrated cards positioned contiguously with each other to
         | give the illusion of an imperforate surface; by changing the
         | pages of the book in precisely coordinated unison following the
         | signals of a conductor, the backdrop image is transformed
         | throughout the performance._
        
         | mixmastamyk wrote:
         | Guinea, Guyana, and Ghana... are hard to keep straight. 2/3 in
         | Africa. Add French, New, and Papua combos and no wonder.
        
         | siriaan wrote:
         | Just like Andorra - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4
        
         | teractiveodular wrote:
         | Guyana: South America
         | 
         | French Guiana: South America
         | 
         | Guinea: Africa
         | 
         | Guinea-Bissau: Africa
         | 
         | Equatorial Guinea: Africa
         | 
         | Papua New Guinea: Asia
         | 
         | Bonus fun fact: the guinea pig is from Peru and has no known
         | connection to any of these.
        
           | walterbell wrote:
           | More spelling fun,
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana
        
       | kibwen wrote:
       | What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read.
        
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