[HN Gopher] Wooden satellite heads to space in Mars exploration ...
___________________________________________________________________
Wooden satellite heads to space in Mars exploration test
Author : austinallegro
Score : 65 points
Date : 2024-11-05 14:26 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.sky.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.sky.com)
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| How do you sufficiently sterilize wood to protect mars from
| contamination? I imagine this is less trivial than sterilizing
| metal, plastic, whatever other materials typically go into space-
| vehicle production.
| binarymax wrote:
| I was thinking the same thing, and then I also thought - if the
| long term plans are colonization, is sterilization and non-
| contamination viable, or even desirable?
|
| While the missions remain scientific I absolutely agree
| contamination must be avoided. But as soon as we cross into the
| colony phase, wouldn't that restriction just make things
| harder?
| multimoon wrote:
| If we're into the colonization phase in the future we'll be
| intentionally contaminating the planet trying to grow crops,
| so yes we'd be past that as a point of consideration.
| ryanmcbride wrote:
| sure but in the meantime, while we're still just studying,
| best to keep the petri dish uncontaminated
| ordu wrote:
| _> But as soon as we cross into the colony phase, wouldn't
| that restriction just make things harder?_
|
| I think not just harder, because the first colonies will
| enable scientists to study the pristine environment in more
| depth, while the colonies itself will be small and costs of a
| sterilization will be relatively low. So the onset of
| uncontrolled contamination should probably be delayed until
| well after the first colony.
| adrian_b wrote:
| I assume that a combination of high temperature and irradiation
| should be effective.
|
| Wood should not be damaged by temperatures high enough to kill
| living cells and it provides negligible shielding for
| radiation.
|
| However, after sterilization it may require more care than
| metal, glass or plastic, to avoid any later contamination.
| Presumably all the assembly must be done in a sterile
| environment.
|
| Unlike metal or glass, which could be washed in oxidizing acids
| to remove organic substances, sterilized wood may contain dead
| bacterial cells in its pores. For satellites expected to burn
| on reentry that would not matter. For exploring other planets,
| that would be undesirable, as this could provide false
| positives for detectors of organic substances.
| dr_orpheus wrote:
| > Wood should not be damaged by temperatures high enough to
| kill living cells
|
| Yep, in NASA's planetary protection guidelines they have
| bakeout timelines specified for microbial reduction at
| temperatures between 112C and 155C. There are a number of
| other cleaning and sterilization methods in there as well.
|
| [0] https://planetaryprotection.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/img/co
| nte...
| nortlov wrote:
| The Polaris Dawn mission took a violin to orbit:
| https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/how-do-you-take-a-violin-t...
|
| In addition to vacuum exposure to address outgassing, they'd
| probably hit wood with some sterilization process (gamma
| radiation as one example) to ensure any microbes in the wood
| are dead before landing on another planet.
| Glyptodon wrote:
| I'm not sold that it's possible to do any form of colonization
| without some kind of eventual contamination.
| genter wrote:
| I'm curious what an advanced alien species would think if they
| saw a wooden satellite. Would they be able to extract the DNA and
| think that it's something humans created, same as the code on the
| CPU? Or would they just think the wood is some type of synthetic
| like fiberglass?
| ryanmcbride wrote:
| I wonder if they'd think the wooden ship _was_ the human, a la
| Species 8472
| snek_case wrote:
| IMO it's likely that alien life would mirror the life we have
| here in a lot of ways. It's likely that aliens would have DNA
| or RNA, and would be made out of cells (unless they've become
| machines). So I think they would be pretty likely to understand
| what they are looking at given a bit of time for analysis.
|
| The reason aliens are likely to be made out of DNA and have
| cells is simply that those things tend to naturally come to
| exist in our universe. We don't really have any evidence that
| any other chemistry (e.g. silicon-based) can produce life in
| this universe. If DNA-based life comes about elsewhere in the
| universe, it won't look exactly like us, but that life is also
| likely to have both plants and animals, just because life tends
| to try to fill every available evolutionary niche.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > The reason aliens are likely to be made out of DNA and have
| cells is simply that those things tend to naturally come to
| exist in our universe.
|
| I think you are confusing carbon-based life with DNA-based
| life, for which N=1, the Earth. There is absolutely no
| evidence that DNA exists anywhere else. I'm prepared to
| accept the argument that carbon+water is a good basis for
| life, but this does not inevitably lead to DNA-based
| replicators.
| lazide wrote:
| N=1 is a whole lot larger than N=0, eh?
| short_sells_poo wrote:
| Ha, interesting proposition. What do you think would be the
| alternative to DNA? I'm curious as I'm a complete layman.
| Intuitively, I'd think that a self replicating life form
| will need something to carry it's program, and this is what
| DNA is. Alien life might use different molecules to carry
| that program, but conceptually it would be the same, no?
|
| I'd even go as far as to say that DNA arose out of the fact
| that carbon based chemistry is good for life (we see N=1
| case at least), and once we accept carbon based chemistry,
| amino-acids are the next optimal step, followed by
| something like the DNA to program the construction of
| proteins for amino acids.
|
| Again, I'm just a layman so it'd be nice to know the views
| of experts in this area.
| p1mrx wrote:
| DNA is really complicated. There are probably a bunch of
| other polymers that could fill the same role.
| emptiestplace wrote:
| I think that the only thing that is inevitable is
| complexity changing over time. My first thought was maybe
| there could be a more distributed sort of "program", but
| maybe we already have that - either evolution itself, or
| if evolution somehow isn't inevitable, something that
| bootstraps or otherwise facilitates it.
|
| Imagine yourself existing on a microscopic scale, with
| your current consciousness intact. You'd look into the
| 'sky' and see an organelle membrane or nuclear
| envelope... what would your concept of the "program of
| life" be, while existing adjacent to DNA itself? Would
| this activity look a bit like some of the natural
| processes we witness and take part in on Earth?
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > I'd think that a self replicating life form will need
| something to carry it's program,
|
| Well yes, for sure, a replicator needs some sort of
| 'program', and if you go for carbon+water, amino acids
| are a good bet.
|
| > and this is what DNA is
|
| Yes, on Earth. But the actual horrendously weird and
| complex molecule Deoxyribonucleic acid is not the only
| way of implementing such a program. Check out a text such
| as 'How Life Works: A User's Guide to the New Biology',
| by Philip Ball to see why I'm being picky here.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Unless there was a common source like some sort of panspermia
| event, there is no reason to assume aliens would also use
| DNA/RNA to encode information.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Why not? The only thing you need to prove is that this is
| the most energy advantageous process for the common
| components of life that produces a reliable and durable
| self replication. The amino acids might be different but
| even there it's only physics there are only so many likely
| permutations.
|
| And as far as intelligent (technological intelligence)
| biological life it's more likely than not to be far more
| similar to us than completely alien.
|
| It would have to develop on land or at least be able to
| transition to land at some point. Can't have complex
| chemistry under water, can't have fire can't have
| metallurgy.
|
| Vision in a spectrum similar to us or higher is pretty much
| a must, both as a requirement for higher brain development
| as well as to actually be exposed to all that information.
| A star fairing civilization that can't see stars isn't
| likely to develop and as far as odd spectrums go RF and
| Xray might be able to see stars but not predators so it
| unlikely to develop in the first place.
|
| Appendages that allow fine tool development is pretty much
| a must for incremental technological development also.
|
| Gravity at least at the upper bounds would need at minimum
| to obey the rocket equation any world with heavier gravity
| than that would allow that wouldn't likely to produce a
| space fairing civilization.
|
| Lower limits might be imposed on powered flight and missile
| weapons that may be a required developmental phase also.
|
| And as far as planetary makeup goes then again should be
| rather similar including likely evolutionary phases that
| would produce large fossil fuel deposits.
|
| Atmospheric oxygen is also a must no oxygen no fire.
|
| As for as other elements enough metals to support a
| technological civilization as well as possibly enough
| fissile material for at least a partial nuclear phase tho
| lack of fissile material might put developmental pressure
| on the fusion part of the tech tree so there is some wiggle
| room.
| emptiestplace wrote:
| Your argument makes interesting observations, but relies
| on Earth-centric assumptions. For instance, the
| requirement for land-based development of complex
| chemistry and metallurgy assumes there couldn't be
| alternative pathways in different environments. We
| already see complex chemistry happening in deep-sea
| hydrothermal vents that challenges our assumptions about
| where complex processes can occur.
|
| Similarly, the needs for human-like vision or specific
| tool manipulation may be limiting our analysis. Consider
| how bats and dolphins build sophisticated mental models
| of their world through echolocation, or how octopodes
| demonstrate problem-solving abilities with fundamentally
| different appendages than ours.
|
| Given we only have one example of technological
| civilization, we should be cautious about declaring which
| features are truly universal requirements versus those
| that just happened to work for us. There might be paths
| to advanced technology that we haven't yet conceived.
| oniony wrote:
| Octopuses or octopodes.
| emptiestplace wrote:
| thank you!
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > IMO it's likely that alien life would mirror the life we
| have here in a lot of ways. It's likely that aliens would
| have DNA or RNA, and would be made out of cells (unless
| they've become machines).
|
| This is very, very, very much "in your opinion". It's not
| impossible that you're right, but there is no plausible basis
| for saying "it is likely".
| dylan604 wrote:
| Wooden boxes in space seems to me to have the potential of
| the Flinstone's car. It's techy thing in the lowest tech
| possible to the point of being comedic. So when aliens find
| our wooden satellites, they'll think what kind of redneck
| uses wood? Have they not found metal yet?
|
| Maybe I've consumed too much Douglas Adams type of humor
| aorloff wrote:
| I think this is the most likely reason why we haven't found
| aliens yet - we are looking for something too much like what
| we are.
|
| We can't take as evidence the things that happen in chemistry
| on our planet as indicative of what is likely in the
| universe.
| Voloskaya wrote:
| Define << too much >>. I don't disagree with you that we
| are currently only looking for life like our own, but <<
| too much >> makes it sound like this is some form of short
| sightedness, whereas it's just that trying to find
| something we can't define is basically impossible. We can
| define life as it is on earth, and we have proof it's
| possible. It might be an outlier form but it's the only one
| we can effectively look for.
| hbrav wrote:
| Maybe worth remembering that "trees" have evolved many times on
| earth. i.e. trees do not all share a common tree-like ancestor.
| The woody-trunk-and-branches pattern was just useful enough
| that it evolved many times. Which makes me suspect that aliens
| would likely have something tree-like on their home world, and
| would have also learned to build using it.
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| Here's an article I like about that:
| https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-
| th...
| TruffleLabs wrote:
| Wooden spaceships has been part of some science fiction stories.
|
| https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/250692/disgusting-...
| alanbernstein wrote:
| See also: Yggdrasill the tree-ship from Hyperion, and a similar
| idea from the movie The Fountain.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Stage trees if I recall were the subject of a series of science
| fiction stories. They grew as boosters essentially, ignited at
| some point to launch and spread their seeds. If they grew for a
| long time without igniting, they might leave the planet.
|
| 'The Integral Trees' also had trees in space.
| jcl wrote:
| The unlikeliness of the wooden spaceship was one of my favorite
| parts of the sci-fi mystery/adventure game "The Outer Wilds".
| (An indie gem...highly recommended, if you like puzzles or
| exploration.)
|
| https://www.mobiusdigitalgames.com/outer-wilds.html
| KineticLensman wrote:
| There's precedent for wooden rockety things: the German WW2
| Rheintochter, which had plywood control fins. Never went into
| space, obviously, but we sometimes forget now how useful wood can
| be.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheintochter
| ashleyn wrote:
| There may be no air or water in space but there is radiation.
| Wouldn't that degrade the wood?
| lazide wrote:
| Off gassing of volatiles and water would damage the wood too -
| wood has a _lot_ of oil and other volatiles in it that help
| hold it together.
| m4rtink wrote:
| IIRC some Chinese spy sats that still used photographic film to
| capture images used treated wood for the heat shield of the film
| return capsule. Not that special actually as IIRC treated cork
| has been used for spacecraft heat shielding quite regularly.
| ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 wrote:
| > This will provide more people with the opportunity to develop
| amateur satellites at a lower cost.
|
| Maybe, not what is being reported by Sky News though
|
| - https://www.nanosats.eu/sat/lignosat
| ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 wrote:
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385493128_Space_exp...
| jcl wrote:
| I wasn't sure what the article meant by "no screws or glue", when
| the photograph appears to have visible screws. But closer images
| show that these are apparently some sort of rivet?
|
| I found a (Japanese-language-only) news piece that shows some of
| the crafting and assembly of the satellite, and the box body
| certainly holds together by itself, via some beautifully
| intricate joinery:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_F-NzzC7RA
| noman-land wrote:
| The Japanese and amazing joinery, name a better combo. So
| delightful.
| teucris wrote:
| Site with some photos: https://www.nanosats.eu/sat/lignosat
| sithadmin wrote:
| It looks like there's a metal(?) frame with rivets, screws used
| to secure internal electronic components, and the internal wood
| 'body' seems to be assembled with fastener-less joinery. There
| are some photos of the cubesat without the frame here:
| https://www.infoespacial.com/texto-diario/mostrar/4304727/ja...
| teeray wrote:
| I kinda want a Norm Abram PBS special on wood satellite
| crafting techniques
| jaysonelliot wrote:
| I'm confused by this statement in the article:
|
| << _LignoSat is made of honoki, a kind of magnolia tree native to
| Japan, and has been made using a traditional Japanese technique
| without screws or glue._ >>
|
| From photos I've seen while searching for more information, it
| does appear that there's a wooden core structure that is joined
| without fasteners. But it's then given a metal exoskeleton and
| what certainly appears to be metal fasteners.
|
| I'd like to understand whether the goal is to create satellites
| without metal, as the article seemed to imply.
| spacemark wrote:
| It's not, this is all internet click bait sensational stuff.
| Wood can be an effective composite and has been used in space
| vehicles for at least 40 years. First time I saw it used was
| old LV fairings. These days there are much better composites
| available so the use of wood is likely for non-technical
| reasons.
| teucris wrote:
| This is meant to show that the housing can be made of wood, but
| the antennae and electronics still require mounting points via
| metal or plastic fasteners. The article gives a few reasons why
| this might be valuable, eg fewer toxins released during burnup,
| but I see this as an experiment in alternative manufacturing
| techniques, to see what we might be missing when we assume
| things like this need to be made out of metal and bolts.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >but I see this as an experiment in alternative manufacturing
| techniques, to see what we might be missing when we assume
| things like this need to be made out of metal and bolts.
|
| That's an optimistic view, I suspect it's just done to get
| people talking about it and to contrast the traditional
| joinery against the technology. There isn't likely to be any
| criteria by which wood is the best material to use for
| something like this.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Why? To ensure that it's biodegradable? I can see the idea of
| build with wood as a part of colonisation, assuming that we can
| make trees grow. That would still mean seeding a forest 30 - 50
| year (or more), before humans arrive. It seems like it might be
| faster to start extracting metals, or make some type of concrete.
| That is especially true if the forest needs human intervention to
| grow and produce usable timber.
| Shawnj2 wrote:
| Weight reduction would be a serious benefit if this actually
| works
| NBJack wrote:
| This is assuming said trees could even grow in such a different
| environment. I'd be surprised of they get far, given that even
| with the right nutrients and sunlight, there's still the matter
| of gravitropism for the plant to 'sense' how to grow correctly.
| onlypassingthru wrote:
| Any woodworkers know what species of wood was used? 'Hinoki' is a
| widely used Japanese cypress but the English articles all say
| it's a 'honoki' magnolia?
| Loughla wrote:
| It's a magnolia. Magnolia hypoleuca or I think it's also called
| Japanese large-leaf magnolia.
|
| I've used it for knife handles. It's light and strong, so that
| makes sense for this use case.
| mannyv wrote:
| Will it crack when all the water etc gets pulled out of it?
| nopelynopington wrote:
| I accidentally visited this from a browser with no adblocker and
| outbrain clickbait has become comically weird. I was shown what
| appears to be AI generated video clips of a bear walking through
| a children's hospital ward, presented as a story about something
| that happened in my area (Ireland has no bears). I refreshed and
| was shown the same story but this time it was a wolf. This was
| side by side with the usual midjourney images as dating site
| profiles, and weird fabricated medical stuff. They really have
| gone off the deep end.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-11-05 23:00 UTC)