[HN Gopher] Insomnia, but not lack of sleep, may hasten brain sh...
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Insomnia, but not lack of sleep, may hasten brain shrinkage: study
Author : gnabgib
Score : 86 points
Date : 2024-11-04 20:23 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ucsf.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ucsf.edu)
| orbifold wrote:
| > "Although the study found inadequate sleep duration was not an
| issue in brain atrophy in this study, we cannot say there is no
| association," she said, noting that a previous CARDIA study
| showed that shorter sleep was associated with worse white matter
| integrity, indicating lower cognitive functioning.
|
| That quote seems to directly contradict the headline.
| askafriend wrote:
| The science publication complex is incredibly problematic.
| threatofrain wrote:
| The subtitle is _UCSF-led study finds that insomnia, but not
| lack of sleep, may hasten brain shrinkage_.
| dang wrote:
| Yes. Let's use that above.
| macrael wrote:
| From the public results only[1] (I don't have a copy of the
| whole study) they studied the following things looking for
| correlation with brain decline:
|
| * short sleep duration
|
| * sleep quality
|
| * difficulty initiating sleep (DIS)
|
| * difficulty maintaining sleep (DMS)
|
| * early morning awakening (EMA)
|
| * daytime sleepiness
|
| They only found that the middle four were correlated. I don't
| know what exactly "sleep quality" is but the others are pretty
| easy to understand. And the point is that the duration of a
| person's sleep is not what mattered, it was the quality.
|
| [1]: https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/WNL.0000000000209988
| digging wrote:
| Sleep quality, if excluding DIS, DMS, EMA, usually will refer
| to things like apneas, nasal congestion, digestion, noise or
| light in the room, etc. Disturbances that don't wake the
| person but do tax the brain.
| derefr wrote:
| I would describe low sleep quality as "difficulty entering
| or maintaining the restorative phases of sleep." It's the
| thing a sleep clinic measures with an EEG.
| timr wrote:
| Also, worth saying: these things were based on _self-reported
| data_ , which is basically crap.
|
| >To estimate the effects of sleep quality on the brain, the
| researchers surveyed approximately 600 adults on how well
| they slept. The participants were asked the same questions
| five years later and underwent brain scans 10 years after
| this.
|
| This is press-release science. Maybe the latter three things
| you can remember, but I have sensors and whatnot in a
| fancypants mattress (i.e. I'm highly motivated to know), and
| my subjective opinion of my _prior night 's_ sleep is pretty
| uncorrelated with what they say. I couldn't begin to tell you
| the quality of my sleep from a week ago.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| I like how scientists use words like less and more as if we
| know what reference points they are thinking
| eagleinparadise wrote:
| I'm approaching midlife and noticing the quality of my sleep has
| declined. I can't sleep in anymore. Sometimes I'm waking up in
| the middle of the night occasionally and something I'm wide awake
| because I'm thinking about work or something like that. Very
| frustrating.
|
| Another reminder to try to pull myself away from the screens late
| at night.
| The28thDuck wrote:
| Sorry to hear that! I hope your sleep quality improves. :)
| moffkalast wrote:
| Have you tried afternoon naps to compensate? I remember reading
| this theory a while back that we sort of naturally switch to a
| different sleeping cycle over the course of our lives, where
| older people tend to stay awake at night and sleep during the
| day as a sort of evolved way to split shifts for camp defence
| during the tribal era. No idea if there's any solid data to
| back it up though.
| prettyStandard wrote:
| I've also found it's hard to sleep in, I recommend going to
| sleep sooner. It's like I'm hardwired to wake up at a certain
| time, the only thing I can control is when I go to bed.
| stavros wrote:
| Yeah, same here. I'll wake up at noon, no matter what time I
| go to bed. If I go to bed at 2, I'll have ten hours of sleep,
| if at 6... You get the idea.
|
| Now all I need is to have fewer interesting hobbies and
| builds at night.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| ahh the old 3am ruminating toss and turn never fails to put me
| back asleep a half hour before my alarm goes off and mostly
| never closer to solving the problem at hand
| jasonfarnon wrote:
| I noticed that too, but assumed it is a natural part of the
| body being in stasis and no longer growing/developing. I
| definitely remember being most tired during teenage years and
| other phases when the body was changing. You and others seem to
| imply that it has to be with increased stress, and maybe so,
| but I would like to see data on other cultures. Does someone
| who has been farming since age 17 have the same sleep patterns
| in middle age?
| pedalpete wrote:
| There is a natural reduction in sleep quality as we age. This
| is related to the decline of health in aging.
| eastbound wrote:
| I thought work stress kept me awake at night, but it was sleep
| apnea. I had a device that propels the lower jaw forward, to
| clear the throat, it stopped apnea but moved my teeth, but I
| then was brave enough to lose ~5kg (sleeping more makes you
| brave), and now I don't need the jaw device.
| graeme wrote:
| Two low impact things to try are:
|
| * A _very_ small amount of melatonin. .300 to .500 mg.
|
| * Breathe right strips, these increase airflow
|
| Other health issues can also cause wakefulness.
| flakiness wrote:
| Don't forget: Try pausing caffeine intake.
| corysama wrote:
| 1 mg sublingual (dissolve under the tongue) melatonin works
| for me. I find it works best if I wait until I'm well settled
| in and should be asleep, but aren't. That's the time to
| quietly pop the tablet so it nudges me over the edge.
|
| Biggest problem is that 1mg sublingual is hard to find.
| Walgreens/CVS is excited to sell you 5, 10 even 20 mg pills
| and gummies. But, those are so strong they are counter-
| productive.
| schaefer wrote:
| what works for me in this case is to pop in a single ear bud
| and turn on an audio book I've already listened to.
|
| because there is a narrative, it shuts down rumination. because
| there's nothing novel, my brain is quite happy to drift off to
| escape the tedium.
| marknutter wrote:
| My god, this is not only exactly what I've done for years,
| but you described it in _exactly_ the same way I describe it
| when telling people about it, almost word for word.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| My issue is I seem somehow wired to wake up early. I sleep
| better when I go to bed earlier. Screen use seems to have
| nearly no impact on my sleep, and what has the most impact is
| the type of screen usage (i.e. reading news, books & watching
| film is fine, but instagram/tiktok before bed tends to lead to
| worse sleep for me).
| timack wrote:
| Moving my phone from beside my bed to across the room
| dramatically improved my sleep quality.
| debo_ wrote:
| You know what the best way to stop sleeping well is? Read about
| all the things that poor sleep does to you. Especially when the
| quality of the research is as shaky as this link.
| criddell wrote:
| Matthew Walker, author of _Wy We Sleep_ agrees with you. He has
| a page where he addresses some common reader concerns and
| criticisms and anxiety around quantity and quality of sleep is
| something he acknowledges:
|
| https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...
|
| In that same post he addresses some of Alexey Guzey's oft
| repeated criticism of his work.
| debo_ wrote:
| I experienced severe insomnia for awhile due to stress
| illness, and some stuff from The Sleep Coach School helped
| quite a bit. I'm doing well now, but I get a bit facepalmy
| when I see healthy people go looking for things to worry
| about.
|
| https://youtube.com/@thesleepcoachschool8192
| bamboozled wrote:
| This
| kingkawn wrote:
| Awww sheeiiiiittttt
| neofrommatrix wrote:
| I sometimes wonder what damage 20 years of undiagnosed sleep
| apnea has caused. My sleep report showed 50 incidents of
| breathing issue per hour on average. I finally got a CPAP and it
| has literally made a world of difference to my life. Now I hear
| my toddler snore and hope that he doesn't have it. At least, I
| can intervene early.
| eastbound wrote:
| When I am 86kg, I have quite heavy sleep apnea. When I am 83kg,
| I don't. Everyone has different possible actions, because for
| some it is due to the shape of the nose cartilage, for others
| it's the throat, but discovering that made a world of
| difference.
|
| I wake up in the morning and I'm awake. And courageous. It's
| incredible.
| david-gpu wrote:
| Lucky you. I had textbook symptoms of sleep apnea four years
| ago with a BMI of 19.
|
| Due to COVID I could not get tested until my BMI was 23.5.
| The air pressure I was prescribed was ludicrously wrong and
| after a couple of years of tweaking it I'm still not sleeping
| great, but it's a massive improvement over receiving no
| therapy.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Same here. My CPAP changed my life literally on the first
| night. I woke up feeling 20 years younger.
| aziaziazi wrote:
| How's the noise? Do you have a partner? I do day and night
| apnea and love to try a CPAP but my partner needs a quiet room
| to sleep.
|
| What features/specificities should one consider to choose a
| model? Can I buy second hands, does some parts wear off?
|
| Maybe should get one for when she don't sleep at home, I'd love
| to feel rested at morning sometimes.
| jacobsenscott wrote:
| I just got one. It is silent according to my wife. It is kind
| of loud for me because it is blowing air into my nose which
| makes noise inside my head. But I like white noise - helps
| with the tinnitus.
| neofrommatrix wrote:
| With the mask on, it's like having a white noise machine at a
| volume of 3-4. My wife wasn't getting enough sleep because of
| my snoring, so this white noise isn't bothering her at all.
|
| I went with the doctor prescribed one, through insurance and
| have a Resmed Airsense 11. Did not explore second hand and I
| don't think you can buy one without a prescription. I Change
| the mask every 3-4 months, but you can extend it as long as
| you wash it every 3-4 days.
| mjfl wrote:
| I'm so screwed...
| pedalpete wrote:
| We work in the sleep space, and this isn't new.
|
| I was at a conference last week, and for the first time heard
| about a study that suggested that the cycle is that a build up of
| amyloid, tau, lew bodies, and other metabolic waste in the brain
| reduces the slow-wave power which is responsible for clearing out
| this metabolic waste (via the glymphatic system).
|
| This cycle is still not proven, but it was an interesting early
| hypothosis.
|
| We've been developing slow-wave enhancement technology for the
| last 4 years which increases slow-wave activity, and the first 3
| studies in Alzheimer's and MCI are now published. These are early
| studies with lots left to go.
|
| Studies https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10758173/
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37593850/
| https://www.proquest.com/intermediateredirectforezproxy
|
| You can find out more about us at https://affectablesleep.com
|
| We're raising an Angel round, and I'll be travelling through the
| US from Mid-Nov to early Dec. pete[a] domain if you want to learn
| more.
| sarah_eu wrote:
| > We work in the sleep space
|
| Is this another way of saying you work from bed?
| pedalpete wrote:
| What can I say? I'm a hard worker. ;)
| extr wrote:
| I'll let my baby know that when he wakes up in the middle of the
| night it's impacting my brain.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| My only hope is that now that we seemingly have a cure for
| obesity, as the population greys the next common non-cancer/heart
| disease ailment to tackle are brain issues that set in during old
| age. Maybe they'll have a pill that gets rid of all of the plaque
| or proteins or prions or whatever that sleep is for.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Related:
|
| _How to Train Yourself to Go to Sleep Earlier_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42016904
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than
| sleep duration (2023)_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151
| scandox wrote:
| What is the term for cursed knowledge that may also be untrue?
| MrLeap wrote:
| Fearmongering? Misinformation? Something with a vector around
| there probably.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Insomnia bad and the discovery of how sleep flushes toxins seem
| to jive
| zmmmmm wrote:
| There must be a nuanced distinction b/w short sleep duration and
| the other sleep quality metrics since nearly all of them likely
| cause short sleep duration as a side effect. I wonder how the
| researchers disentangled this.
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