[HN Gopher] It's called a dance floor
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It's called a dance floor
Author : wmeredith
Score : 104 points
Date : 2024-11-04 16:04 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.seekhifi.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.seekhifi.com)
| wmeredith wrote:
| Pound-for-pound, Vogue by Madonna is one of the most remarkable
| examples of artificial stereophonic sound ever produced.
|
| As a lover of hi-fi, Madonna wasn't really on my radar until
| someone steered me toward this gem. After about 50 listens and
| some really interesting research on QSound (the tech used to
| produce it), I ended up featuring it in my hi-fi music
| recommendation newsletter.
| peterldowns wrote:
| Thanks for submitting this here, very cool article -- I hadn't
| heard of QSound before.
| empath75 wrote:
| I don't know, I always thought it sounded simplistic, cheap and
| dated, even at the time. Placing stuff in the stereo field has
| been bog standard music production since the 70s. Q sound adds
| a _little_ bit to it, but somewhat importantly if you are
| actually listening to this song in a dance club it's all
| completely lost, a lot of clubs don't have any kind of stereo
| separation.
|
| Just compare it to stuff that was coming out of the acid house
| scene at the same time (yes i know this song isn't really acid
| house -- but it does have a lot of fun stereo effects):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qexS5hBB1C0
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| A lot of stereo/3d stuff translates differently to each
| listener. Q sound might not work for you the way it does for
| others (none of the 3d sound stuff seems to work for me).
| djborschtbeets wrote:
| You can't just throw out Orb and expect me not to get
| _extremely_ excited. Now I _have_ to listen to this entire
| youtube performance. THANKS.
| mmastrac wrote:
| QSound was magic at the time. We had a DSP class in my EE degree
| where we implemented a very minor transform that would shift
| position of audio and it was wild.
|
| It's impossible to get 3D audio to be absolutely as flawless as
| the real world because human ears all vary slightly and your 3D
| spacial perception of sound is literally tuned on your own ears,
| but QSound's transfer functions come as close as you can get.
|
| The algorithm also falls apart a bit outside of the sweet spot,
| and is really only useful in headphones and specific cases where
| a human is known to be placed in a certain location relative to
| speakers.
|
| The original model was developed using a simulated human head and
| lots of hand-tuning. I am curious if we've advanced far enough
| with tech that a more modern set of transfer function parameters
| could be developed.
|
| Nothing beats N speakers for positional audio, but this is a
| pretty decent replacement if the conditions are ideal.
|
| OpenAL was designed as an open-source library to bring 3D audio
| to the masses in the same way that OpenGL did (basically exposing
| QSound/equivalent hardware on sound cards to an API), but I'm not
| sure what happened to it [1].
|
| [1]
| https://www.openal.org/documentation/openal-1.1-specificatio...
| wrs wrote:
| Isn't this the same fundamental technique as Spatial Audio and
| binaural Atmos rendering? AirPods can even measure your
| personal ear transfer functions.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Looks like it is. The Apple HRTF should be much more accurate
| than QSound -- QSound was designed to work without any
| analysis.
| brudgers wrote:
| Yes and no. Contemporary spatial audio render images in real-
| time. Older systems rendered the image during mixing.
|
| On the other hand psychoacoustic techniques have not changed.
| StilesCrisis wrote:
| I experimented with OpenAL when Apple developed an
| implementation and it was unfortunately quite buggy. There were
| obvious threading hazards visible in the code. It was fine for
| toy/demo usage but it wasn't fit for production.
|
| It looks like OpenAL on other platforms was used in various
| games though.
| lynx23 wrote:
| Well, the OpenAL API is now part of WebAudio. Listener
| position, buffers, sources... You name it, WebAudio API has it.
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| It's much easier to replace OpenAudio with other engines--fmod,
| notably, is better in almost every way.
| mellosouls wrote:
| As a dancer I had hoped from the title that the article would be
| a discussion of the death of dance in clubs.
|
| It alludes to the record being popular on dancefloors but given
| that most these days are full of people waving their phones
| packed tight as sardines, or tiny spaces full of drunks and
| lechers none of whom can dance in either case, it seems a moot
| point that it's still popular...
| itsmemattchung wrote:
| Fellow (house) dancer here and couldn't agree with you more.
| Luckily, however, I recently relocated to London and though I
| rarely stay out late these days, I did go to a venue called
| Fabric and I bring this because there's a policy (moderately
| enforced) of "no phones" and in fact, prior to entering, they
| will place little stickers on camera lens. Of course, some
| individuals will inevitably whip out their phones to capture a
| video or photo, at which point an (disguised as civilian)
| employee will demand that they put their phone away. So again,
| moderately enforced.
|
| All that is to say, dance in clubs still exists...just rare to
| find.
| piva00 wrote:
| Clubs with policies like Fabric exist in other cities as
| well, to me they are usually a sign of a good club.
|
| Berlin clubs, at least the ones worthy going to, have the
| same policy of no photos, and heavily enforce it.
|
| I've seen quite a few people booted out from sticking their
| phone for a picture twice, it's one of the things that can
| really put a sour feeling on a dance floor. If I'm there to
| be free and dance my heart out the last thing I want is to be
| conscious of perhaps getting filmed while doing so.
| Personally I have politely asked many people to not even try
| that in those clubs.
|
| I've seen the same policy in some clubs in Amsterdam,
| Rotterdam, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Paris, Brussels, Vienna,
| and the list goes on. If you can manage to go clubbing at
| places that enforce such policies I'd say you're 80-90% there
| on finding a good dance floor.
| immibis wrote:
| Regarding Fabric in particular, I just happened to see this
| today: https://old.reddit.com/r/Techno/comments/1giwz2l/dear_
| fabric...
| input_sh wrote:
| > and yesterday was Halloween weekend so it opened up the
| possibility to come across a bunch of drunk clubbers just
| looking to get fucked up
|
| I think they're understating this part, I thought it was
| universally understood that the Halloween weekend is
| absolutely the worst time to go clubbing.
|
| Lots of new people that don't particularly care about the
| music + masks is just a bad combo for the regular clubbers,
| regardless of the venue. Whatever issues the venue is
| facing on regular nights are gonna reach new heights that
| weekend.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| It's weird to hear folks new to London talking about the
| scene being good when it's been so heavily decimated in the
| last 15 or so years.
|
| I just want to go back in time to the monthly Bangface nights
| at the 'werks and the early DMZ shows at Mass.
| rPlayer6554 wrote:
| I was a house dancer in NYC before COVID. The shuffle dancing
| scene was still alive. After covid I'm not sure - it's
| definitely less so. I've moved to other dances since then.
| Outside of the specific groups no one is interested in dancing.
| Clubs are just packed with high and drunk people who look like
| they barely care about life.
| marssaxman wrote:
| I have come to strongly prefer outdoor parties as a more
| congenial environment for actual _dancing_ : when there's room
| to move and fresh cool air to breathe, you can really get into
| the flow in a way that's hard to find in a club.
| bluGill wrote:
| Depends on where you live, in some very significant countries
| going outside is potentially deadly. sure I've been outside
| at -30 in just a light jacket, but that was only possible
| because I was exercising hard (ice skating) - while some
| dances are like that, dancers tend to want to have some slow
| dances as well and that means warmer temperatures.
| immibis wrote:
| In most Berlin clubs, phone cameras are strictly banned. This
| seemingly small technical detail creates a significant change
| in the social environment, which is interesting.
| exabrial wrote:
| This is one of my favorite hits from the era. It's a masterpiece.
| frankus wrote:
| As a young Gen Xer it's fun to go back and listen to radio hits I
| heard growing up (on mostly terrible sound systems playing radio
| or cassette tapes) using modern audio hardware. There's a lot of
| depth in many tracks that I couldn't really appreciate at the
| time, because even a half-decent sound system was the kind of
| luxury I (or my parents) wouldn't have splurged on.
| mikrl wrote:
| Reminds me of listening to all the OG wave dubstep on YouTube
| in the late 00s and not getting it, until I plugged in a bass
| amp I was borrowing and vibrated my walls.
| adzm wrote:
| It is amazing that there are entire genres of music like
| space bass that rely on sub bass for the whole experience,
| and it's pretty much impossible to get the same experience
| without a good subwoofer. Good headphones can get close but
| lose the visceral feeling of the sub in your body.
| dylan604 wrote:
| To me if the word "bass" is in the name of the genre, then
| having subs seems like an obvious thing that would miss a
| lot without subs. That's up there with judging a book by
| its cover
| iamacyborg wrote:
| And even then you weren't getting the full live experience.
| Some of the tracks from that time are an incredible physical
| experience.
| mathgeek wrote:
| Every so often when I was younger, I'd do the same with movies,
| buying and setting up a nice surround sound system to get the
| spacial effects just right. Every time I would thoroughly enjoy
| it until rearranging/relocating and not making it a priority to
| acquire and set up a new system.
| dylan604 wrote:
| My dad was into music, so we had a decent set up with
| turntable, cassette, 8-track, and even reel to reel. I'm very
| thankful that crappy Bluetooth speakers were not a thing
| growing up. I had full speaker cabinets with sub, mid, tweeter
| for rich full sound. I also had lots of time where I was the
| only one at home and could push those speakers to release the
| full potential of songs.
|
| Volume makes a difference to be sure, but full wall of sound vs
| loud earbuds are totally different experiences.
| eesmith wrote:
| I went to a record store a few months ago, with a full
| speakers, connected with actual wires.
|
| I hadn't realized how much I missed that sound quality over
| the laptop and headset sound I've been listening to for
| years.
| frankus wrote:
| There's no shortage of crappy modern audio hardware, but
| compared to like a bedside clock-radio, or an 80s economy
| car, a decent bluetooth speaker is actually an upgrade, and
| something like a HomePod (that costs around $115 in 1988
| dollars) is revolutionary.
|
| Which is not to say you couldn't find a Hi-Fi system from
| that era that would put a HomePod to shame, but it was the
| sort of thing only rich people and music geeks would have
| access to.
| grahamj wrote:
| Yep. On that note I'd like to remind younger readers that CDs
| were still very new at the time of this album - many people had
| still never heard a digital recording so listening to this
| album in particular on a decent CD system was magical.
|
| I actually had an original Discman and partially credit
| listening to this album on that as part of what led me to spend
| (probably too large) a chunk of my adult life DJing clubs and
| raves.
| stego-tech wrote:
| As a millennial with auditory speech processing difficulties,
| going back to old tracks on modern gear is always a treat.
| There's _entire instruments_ I just could not pick up on when I
| first heard the tracks years or decades ago, that my modern
| headphones or BAS (Big-Ass Speakers) bring out so clearly and
| cleanly, all from the exact same lossless file from the exact
| same CD I ripped at the time.
|
| Now I need to go back and listen to Vogue again, it sounds
| like. Totally not complaining!
| Loughla wrote:
| Jethro Tull was good on my old shitty radio as a kid. But today
| with a decent set up, that music is transcendent.
| wrs wrote:
| Sting's solo album The Soul Cages was another early QSound
| adopter. I can remember popping it in the CD player and having a
| "What the..." moment.
| wiredfool wrote:
| And Roger Waters' Amused to Death.
| cocodill wrote:
| Unfortunately, I can't share the general enthusiasm for this
| song, neither musically nor in terms of how it sounds. The only
| thing that is quite good is the part of the video with her
| transparent sweater.
| lucasoshiro wrote:
| If you like this kind of stereophonic sound, I recommend Art of
| Noise. Here are some songs from them:
|
| Moments in Love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNkcZ8QoNuI
|
| Paranoimia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F8BD6gNOag
|
| Dragnet '88: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6JQO0KnUZY
|
| I recommend to set the videos to the highest quality and to
| listen using headphones
| pavlov wrote:
| Also, Yello.
|
| They're pretty much only known for "Oh Yeah" which was used in
| "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", but their albums are full of
| fabulous stereophonic productions.
|
| For example "The Race" from 1988:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C62NSn-3hU
|
| This entire album called "Flag" kicks ass. It's a weird ride of
| thrilling electro and comedic bathos. Every song is different.
| card_zero wrote:
| Hmm, I have Flag, should give it another listen. I liked
| Stella better.
| pavlov wrote:
| "Stella" is the more historically important album for sure,
| and has more of an avant-garde edge. But I really enjoy the
| excessive late '80s production on "Flag".
| joenot443 wrote:
| I remember being shown Virtual Barbershop on 2000s YouTube as a
| teenager. I was absolutely blown away by the experience, it did
| for my ears like what 2024 VR does for my eyes. Total magic.
|
| https://www.qsound.com/demos/virtualbarbershop_long.htm
|
| Very cool to see it's from the same company!
| mhh__ wrote:
| I'd never actually looked into who made it. I guess that makes
| complete sense.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I believe they turned that into an attraction at Disney-MGM
| Studios. I certainly remember it from circa 1990.
| Terr_ wrote:
| I remember a contemporary technology, Aureal's A3D, experiencing
| the magic of having one of their sound-cards and playing Counter
| Strike 1.x. Enemy footsteps felt almost as good as seeing them.
| Maybe it's nostalgia, but I never quite recaptured that sense
| with other hardware/games.
|
| Another search-able term to drop in here is "Head-Related
| Transfer Functions" (HRTF), where the inputs are a sound and a
| given relative location, and the problem is how to subtly adjust
| that sound for each "ear", giving your brain the kinds of cues
| normally imparted by the shape of your ears and the different
| materials in your skull, etc.
|
| Aureal suffered from a set of legal battles with a then-not-so-
| huge company named Creative, which eventually bought out the
| bankrupt remains.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor
| aaronax wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Aureal A3D was featured on my family's Compaq
| Presario 5150[0] back in 1998. The speakers were decently sized
| units mounted on the side of the 17" CRT and powered straight
| from the soundcard via 3.5mm plug which apparently was designed
| to output way more power than a standard headphone jack because
| it could go pretty loud.
|
| A couple nifty demos were included. One was simply a bee
| buzzing in a circle, and it totally sounded like it was doing
| loops behind your head.
|
| [0] https://aaron.axvigs.com/node/438
| fsckboy wrote:
| it's an interesting topic, but it's dumb to talk about how
| important this is, but at the same time conflate "stereo" with
| "binaural". It's not clear what is being measured here in terms
| of the result being "good"
|
| (stereo is for creating a realistic sound field for a number of
| people in your living room; binaural is for creating a realistic
| sound field for 1 person with headphones. there are issues and
| compromises either way, for example one of the problems with
| binaural is that when you turn your head, the virtual "stage full
| of musicians" swings around along with your perspective)
|
| there was no technical detail provided here
|
| and why is there a ?ref=seekhifi.com on the wikipedia URL? is
| this some new SEO idea?
| petercooper wrote:
| _Sustained synth chords gently surround, laying the foundation
| for sharp snaps in front and to the right. A Roland TR-909 drum
| machine starts far in the distance on the left_
|
| I thought I'd "follow along" by listening to the song myself, and
| oddly all the directions were the very opposite of those stated
| in the article on both my phone and desktop with both Spotify and
| Apple Music (and on both the remaster and original version of the
| album). I have it on vinyl and CD somewhere, I'll try that later,
| maybe they are more authentic.
| dgacmu wrote:
| Same for google music. I wonder if the author meant stage
| right, or if they had something swapped. (It matches my memory
| of the CD version but I don't feel like pulling the CD pile out
| of the basement for this.)
| mhh__ wrote:
| Peter Wright (of Spycatcher fame) wrote that he got good results
| in the 60s helping people snoop on conversations (i.e. cocktail
| party problem) by playing mono audio as "stereo" with a slight
| phase shift in one ear.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Capcom's CPS 2 arcade system also used Q Sound. Street Fighter
| Alpha 3, which ran on that hardware, has some iconic chiptunes.
| An arcade game was a great use of the technology as well, since
| the algorithm building the 3D soundscape would work best when you
| can reasonably assume where the listeners will be relative to the
| speakers.
|
| This is an example bgm from the game:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huA5sKl7K-U
|
| and the Q sound "demo":
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYIy6lavsd4
| jensenbox wrote:
| Is it just me or the way this is described creates visions of
| American Psycho.
| achille wrote:
| Just listened to Vogue on my headphones, and I'm unable to notice
| anything unique about the soundscape of this song. What do you
| folks hear and _when_ do you hear it? At what point in the song?
| squid_ca wrote:
| I agree. The article mentions bits going around their head, or
| in the front-right. I hear things on the left, and things on
| the right. And stuff that appears on the opposite side of where
| the article mentions them. I'm listening on Spotify, maybe all
| that stuff is stripped out?
| BizarroLand wrote:
| I don't know about Madonna, but the experience I had listening
| to this song for the first time with headphones on is what I
| would guess to be a similar experience:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeTVvhuco4g
|
| Sure, it's christian rock, but from South Africa so it has a
| different vibe from what you may have previously experienced.
|
| They got the intro synth to swirl around your head and it's a
| vibe, and the song itself is decent.
| djborschtbeets wrote:
| Listened to it on a recent 16" macbook - sounds incredible.
| Better than most music I would typically introduce to it.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > Just listened to Vogue on my headphones ...
|
| There's been _plenty_ of discussion, throughout the decades, on
| that subject.
|
| My take: Qsound is something very specific and it is meant to
| work with actual speakers, not headphones.
|
| Your anecdotical experience supports my take on the subject.
| djborschtbeets wrote:
| Okay, I just listened to this on my 16" MacBook Pro from 2023.
|
| Holy ** its incredible. The drums have a physical space,
| everything can be _placed_ in a location. I 've seen it in cars,
| but with my speakers on my laptop this is grade A.
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