[HN Gopher] Young Doctors Want Work-Life Balance. Older Doctors ...
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Young Doctors Want Work-Life Balance. Older Doctors Say That's Not
the Job
Author : JumpCrisscross
Score : 18 points
Date : 2024-11-03 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| stonethrowaway wrote:
| One use of an AI tool potentially would be to try to correlate
| the angle that a publication would benefit from by pushing a
| particular viewpoint. In other words, I want to read not the
| article, but what WSJ gets from it. That'll tell me if the
| article is worth reading at all more than a summary of it.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| That's incredibly difficult for humans to do. How do you
| suggest that an AI would accomplish it?
| daniel-thompson wrote:
| I mean, it _could_ be the job. But a lot of older doctors feel
| like the younger generation needs to go through the same
| struggles and hardships they did. This reminds me of something I
| occasionally see in my parenting of my kids - the desire I have
| for my kids to do things that validate _my own_ childhood
| experience.
| gramie wrote:
| Not saying that this applies to your own situation, but this
| sounds like "my parents smacked me around when I was bad, and I
| turned out okay".
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| This line of reasoning is very common. "If young people don't
| have to endure the same suffering I did then my suffering
| doesn't mean anything." It comes up in student loan
| forgiveness, predatory work environments, and many more.
| Arresting intergenerational harm would admit that ones own
| suffering was pointless and that isn't something people can
| deal with accepting. It's a group coping mechanism, which
| serves a purpose, but also comes with downsides.
| nradov wrote:
| I agree with the general principle, but student loan
| forgiveness is in a completely different category. When a
| loan is forgiven that's not just free money from the
| government, it increases the national debt which impacts all
| citizens. I sympathize with those who made unwise choices as
| youths to take on excessive student debt. But I sympathize
| more with working-class people who never took out student
| loans and instead got a job or enlisted in the military. Why
| should they now pay for the mistakes of college students who
| partied for 4+ years in college majors with no earning
| potential?
|
| Student loan forgiveness also creates a moral hazard. Every
| future generation of students will then expect that they can
| take out unlimited loans and if things don't work out then no
| worries, the debt will just magically vanish.
| gramie wrote:
| I have two nieces who are Canadian but have completed medical
| school in Australia. They are currently in the equivalent of
| internship, heading for residency.
|
| They work 40-hour weeks (compared to 60-90 in Canada), and are
| paid overtime when they go over. Their salaries are
| $100,000/year+ (equivalent to USD $66,000) which seems to be fine
| for them and more than they would receive in Canada.
|
| The post-medical-school phase seems to go on longer (minimum 5
| years) than in Canada, which may account for some of the
| difference.
| stonethrowaway wrote:
| If you can advise them, I hope for their sake they'll move to
| the States because they're underpaid in most so-called first
| world countries.
| robbiep wrote:
| As a doctor in Australia you have absolutely no idea what
| you're talking about. This is a first year salary. The
| equivalent in the US is around 45-55,000 USD annually FOR THE
| ENTIRE RESIDENCY, no overtime pay.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Not accurate, at all, on several levels. In Australia you'll
| be making a six digit income as a doctor (and medicine is a
| five year undergrad degree), you won't have six digit student
| loans, and the AMA's lobbying makes it quite difficult to
| transition your medical degree to the US, even from another
| "so-called first world country".
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| How much do you think medical residents get paid in the US?
| mezzie2 wrote:
| I feel like the _patient_ desires should matter here. Personally,
| as someone with complex medical needs that entails spending a lot
| of time with doctors and healthcare professionals, I want the
| best care possible. The best care possible does not come from
| people who are sleep deprived and chronically stressed. (I do see
| the argument that doctors should be trained to handle stress
| _spikes_ , but that's different than running on empty for
| months/years). I wouldn't want a lawyer handling my case that has
| only slept 4-5 hours a night at best for months or whose body is
| constantly full of adrenaline and cortisol: That lawyer is going
| to do a _shitty job_.
|
| It shouldn't be on us as patients to memorize the change over
| times between shifts to choose when to go in based on getting a
| rested doctor (actual advice that's traded around). The medical
| hazing culture is directly harmful to patients and is, in my
| opinion, a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
|
| If you want to work yourself to death in order to make a ton of
| money, go into fintech or join a hedge fund instead of playing
| with peoples' lives. If you can get into and through med school,
| odds are you could pick up another just as high paying
| profession.
| jordanb wrote:
| It's really amazing how it's illegal to drive a truck without
| mandatory rest periods but it's not just allowed but _expected_
| that doctors will _administer medical care_ under shiftwork
| conditions guaranteed to create extreme fatigue.
| nradov wrote:
| It's a trade-off. I won't defend abusive working conditions
| or forced sleep deprivation. But research has shown that the
| risk of serious medical errors greatly increases when a
| hospitalized patient is handed off from one doctor to
| another. This is a real phenomenon which has been extensively
| studied. So, when doctors work long hours it does improve
| patient outcomes, up to a point.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| > It shouldn't be on us as patients to memorize the change over
| times between shifts to choose when to go in based on getting a
| rested doctor (actual advice that's traded around). The medical
| hazing culture is directly harmful to patients and is, in my
| opinion, a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
|
| I mean that's really easy, don't be sick after 7pm, the night
| shift people are always worse!
| more_corn wrote:
| What if we made that the job? I don't want an overworked,
| stressed doctor. I want a peaceful, calm, thoughtful doctor with
| a happy home life.
|
| These are all our systems. We built them, they serve us. We can
| change them if they stop serving us.
| arcanus wrote:
| > I don't want an overworked, stressed doctor. I want a
| peaceful, calm, thoughtful doctor with a happy home life.
|
| I agree but doctors should go in with open eyes that working
| fewer hours will require more doctors, and this will in turn
| drive down MD salaries.
|
| I think that's a great idea, but that seems to be the
| undeniable tradeoff.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| I mean, no, if everyone works less hours and there are more
| doctors, MD salaries will stay the same
| nradov wrote:
| How do you propose to make more doctors? Right now the
| primary bottleneck is limited residency program funding
| from Medicare. There hasn't been much political appetite
| for major increases.
|
| https://savegme.org/
|
| Given our aging demographic profile with increasing chronic
| disease burden the problem is likely to get worse. Expect
| higher prices and longer waits to see a doctor. A more
| realistic solution will probably be to shift more primary
| care to lower credentialed practitioners such as Physician
| Assistants and Nurse Practitioners.
| arcanus wrote:
| To first order, if doctors work fewer hours, more doctors will be
| required to serve the aggregate medical demand.
|
| More doctors working on the same amount of medical demand will be
| an increased supply of doctors, and so will reduce doctors
| salaries.
|
| This seems like an ideal outcome for consumers, and I suspect the
| AMA would lobby against this. But American doctors should also be
| aware that their famously world class compensation might be
| reduced with this tradeoff.
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