[HN Gopher] My Time Working at Stripe
___________________________________________________________________
My Time Working at Stripe
Author : jondlm
Score : 351 points
Date : 2024-11-02 00:44 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jondlm.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (jondlm.github.io)
| hu3 wrote:
| > Still more time passed and then came the depression. I found
| myself increasingly demotivated in all aspects of my life. I
| could hardly even muster the energy to play video games (my usual
| haunt). Some evenings I would literally sit and stare at a wall.
| My sleep went to shit.
|
| I'm sorry for that. I went through something similar and I
| managed to bounce back up but it took longer than I anticipated.
| Years, not months.
|
| Be gentle with yourself and forgive yourself.
| calmbonsai wrote:
| Amen. As much as it sucks in this culture atm, give yourself,
| at the very least, quarterly goalposts.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| > Be gentle with yourself and forgive yourself.
|
| This is so hard for people like me who have high standards and
| are hard on themselves. I always wanted to buy a home - I
| graduated at the right time but I never got a job at big tech.
| When I did get my full time job it paid a good chunk below
| market, provided no equity and now post-pandemic whatever was
| at my fingertips is at least an arms length away.
|
| I have not done poorly for myself but I continue to rent in my
| mid 30s whereas my buddies at FAANG are much farther ahead in
| life. I was/am not kind to my past self in the current phase -
| constant thoughts of should have done this, should have known
| that, etc.
|
| With the current economy I feel like another chance might not
| come for another 5 years at the minimum, so I'm trying to learn
| my lesson and go to therapy, and accept it gracefully. I can't
| even type "life isn't a race and I shouldn't compare myself"
| without putting it in quotes.
|
| Point is, don't be like me. Yes it's good to be driven and
| ambitious, but unmoderated it can be destructive.
| mparnisari wrote:
| Sounds like you are burnt out. You did the right thing.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Big tech is very much a function of your team and manager. Any
| job is a function first of your manager, second of your team,
| third of your ability and fourth of your project. I always select
| teams in that way, within a company and outside, and this has
| been incredibly helpful.
|
| Stripe is a great place to work in some ways but judging from the
| writeup they had a ton of context switching preventing their
| productivity and the needs of the team didn't align with what
| they did best. I've seen this feedback many times in many jobs.
|
| I've been there myself! No doubt this person will find something
| exciting in no time.
|
| Apropos of nothing as interviewers we do not put any weight on
| your submitting solutions after the window closes because we have
| to evaluate candidates consistently for business and legal
| reasons. We can't give one person extra time because that's not
| applying a consistent bar. Smaller companies may be more flexible
| but big tech won't be. On the plus side big tech knows interviews
| are often a function of luck and setting and will generally
| always invite you to apply again without prejudice a few months
| later.
|
| Being in a position to recover by getting bored and hacking on
| stuff you're passionate about without pressure is something we're
| really lucky to have, and I always try to do this between jobs.
| lucianbr wrote:
| > On the plus side big tech knows interviews are often a
| function of luck
|
| How does this not mean "we hire at random"? It's especially
| egregious after explaining all the reasons you can't give a
| candidate extra time, because you're so precise and consistent.
| Which is it? Consistency and luck are opposites.
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| It's not quite random, the goal is to bias the errors towards
| false negatives (bad rejection) than false positives because
| bad hires are so expensive to recover from.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| I don't know if it's "we hire at random" more so "we hire
| based on intelligent guesses/calculated risk". It's not
| completely random because there's a resume and a rigorous
| process.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| A better way to phrase it is that big techs outcomes in
| hiring are i distinguishable than a random processes would
| be.
| silisili wrote:
| Well written.
|
| The one thing that immediately pissed me off was you doing
| something awesome, then having management attack you for reason
| X, where X attacks everything but the results. The reason never
| really matters, the real reason is that you threatened them in
| some manner and they need to justify their job.
|
| Honestly, I would have just quit at that point. You're a saint
| for staying any longer.
|
| This sounds like an absolutely terrible company to work for.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I was kinda expecting the rest of the post to prove that out.
| gus_massa wrote:
| Perhaps just a bad manager, he got a better review with the new
| manager.
| Jgrubb wrote:
| They're not a saint, they're playing out a pattern that says
| "you're never good enough, try harder".
|
| The manager sounds classically awful and I hate that the world
| rewards such people w power over others.
| calmbonsai wrote:
| Sleep is a definite signal. If you've eliminated diet,
| medication, and personal relationships (tough one) as causes,
| you're left with professional obligations.
|
| Note too that "chronic fatigue" is NOT "lack of sleep".
|
| The brain fog is the net resultant of the body being in a
| constant "fight or flight" mode for too long. Psychologically,
| you've been doing WWI "trench warfare".
| olivermuty wrote:
| What you are experiencing is the symptom of working in a large
| company where no matter how well you perform, you can not
| significantly move the needle yourself.
|
| Coupled with the fact that, as you yourself pointed out, there is
| a literal endless amount of work to do, forever. This is also due
| to the nature of the company being so big.
|
| All companies always has work to do, and no one is ever <<done>>,
| but in a giga-enterprise all meaningful deadlines and deliveries
| sort of tangentially rounds down to zero in terms of impact.
|
| I almost burned out from this myself working in Microsoft. I was
| succeeding in my work by most metrics, but I am motivated more by
| my work being MEANINGFUL and having impact more than anything.
| That is almost impossible to achieve in any large enough company.
|
| Jumped off to be a startup CTO and life started smiling again
| instantly.
|
| Take time away from work, but not too much time. Comments such as
| <<it takes years>> can be true if you have ground yourself down
| to a nub, but trying (and being ok with failing) to do some work
| that lets you feel like you mean something and contribute back to
| society is an understated and important part of the healing
| process.
|
| Good luck!
| keiferski wrote:
| Yeah this is why I sometimes miss the jobs I had in my early
| 20s, working at bakeries/ice cream shops/etc. Obviously the pay
| wasn't great and the working conditions subpar, but there is a
| genuine psychological benefit to making a simple thing, giving
| it to people, then finishing work at the end of the day and
| _being done_ , without an ongoing to-do list, sprints, daily
| meetings, and all the other requirements of contemporary white
| collar jobs.
|
| It's led me to wonder how one could structure a knowledge work
| job in a similar way. The tough part conceptually is how to
| make progress long-term while still only keeping your focus on
| a day at a time, max.
| foota wrote:
| I couldn't find it after searching, but I remember reading
| about a company where they just relaxed and got done what
| they got done. To me, this would be the ideal workplace.
| sharkweek wrote:
| With any form of investor expecting a return I dunno how
| possible this is, but I've worked for one family owned
| business (non-tech industry but had a small tech team) and
| it was super relaxed like you mention.
|
| No investors, no board of directors, just a woman and her
| son who owned the business. They wanted to grow it but were
| very reasonable about it.
|
| That being said the salary was probably 20-30% below
| market. At the time I wanted to make more money so I chased
| that for a while instead.
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| 20-30% lower on a hourly basis or total compensation?
| whstl wrote:
| I often find that even investors can be reasonable.
|
| Most of the problems in tech are of the employees own
| creation. Unreasonable requirements and unreasonable
| timelines, often coming out of thin air for no reason
| other than some middle manager's political interests.
|
| It is super hard to fight against it, and it's even
| harder to demonstrate how forcing tech to work more than
| necessary is bad for business.
|
| Small businesses deal with it by being small. Big
| companies are just chaotic complex systems where you
| don't have much of a choice.
| duggan wrote:
| I've heard similar stories, but I think they tend to have
| some runaway hit cash cow in their rearview enabling it.
|
| Companies that can kind of do anything and it's fine. Like
| Google with AdWords. Whatever they do, AdWords goes to work
| every day and pays the bills.
|
| Other companies get high on their own supply and invent
| things like "Holocracy" and claim it is responsible for
| their success.
| varispeed wrote:
| > finishing work at the end of the day and being done
|
| You can try to find your own thing that you'll focus on after
| work. After 5 I would switch off any company equipment, phone
| etc. Make sure that there is never an expectation that you
| could be available outside of your work hours. Feel free to
| forget anything you worked on after 5, you'll catch up next
| morning. Some workplaces will be against that and make fuss.
| Find another job then and if it is not possible, just deliver
| as little as you can without being sacked. If manager is
| unhappy, but not unhappy enough to let you go, then you are
| doing great.
| keiferski wrote:
| That's definitely possible, but in my experience it's not
| the same thing as _actually_ being done when you 're
| working at a bakery or wherever. Then you don't need to
| turn off your phone, avoid company messages, think about
| what project you have to do tomorrow. You don't need to
| care about the job at all until your next shift starts.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I work in IT and I don't need to think about that project
| that's running late or whatever. Yeah, I have to turn off
| my work laptop, but that's more akin to taking off my
| apron if I worked in a bakery.
|
| Sure, it sometimes happens that I'm working on some
| interesting project, and I may find myself thinking about
| it after my workday is done. But it's because I generally
| love what I do. It wouldn't surprise me that, say, a
| pastry chef would possibly think about combining
| ingredients in some different way, too.
|
| I think the only job where you absolutely wouldn't have
| to think about it is if you don't have any kind of agency
| and only do what you're told. I'm not sure that I would
| enjoy that kind of job.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Indeed. And I think this is both a case of managing
| expectations (if you're always available, people will learn
| to expect it) and also of realizing what is and isn't
| expected of you.
|
| Where I work, a normal workday is 9 AM to 6 PM with an hour
| lunch. There's some flexibility as to the actual hours, I
| usually do 8-5, others do 10-7. Yet, some people always put
| in very long hours for some reason, complete with gulping
| down a sandwich in front of their computer for lunch. I'm
| not sure what gives them the impression they have to do it,
| since it's clearly not expected from our common higher-ups.
| varispeed wrote:
| > Yet, some people always put in very long hours for some
| reason
|
| Guilty. The reason was living with abusive partner and
| not being brave enough to end the relationship. Things
| were bad, but not bad enough to do something about it.
| globnomulous wrote:
| > some people always put in very long hours for some
| reason, complete with gulping down a sandwich in front of
| their computer for lunch. I'm not sure what gives them
| the impression they have to do it, since it's clearly not
| expected from our common higher-ups.
|
| This is just how I like to work and approach problem
| solving. I can take breaks when I make the effort, but,
| when work starts, I rarely think about anything except
| climbing whatever mountain I find myself on, helping
| others at my company, or exceeding my own (or others')
| expectations. That intensity helps me think deeply and
| solve problems effectively.
|
| There are people in my company who do good work but draw
| boundaries clearly and sharply. I respect that. I just
| love what I do and find it interesting and absorbing
| partly because I love the intensity of striving and
| struggling, constantly refining, improving, growing, and
| exploring.
|
| My company generously rewards good work, too. That also
| helps; my effort never feels wasted, unacknowledged, or
| unrewarded.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I don't think you're talking about the same thing as GP.
| I've had spells like you describe, and I did enjoy them.
| And I don't know about you, but I never felt like this
| was _expected_ of me by the company, so there was no
| pressure involved. I think that this actually being my
| choice made all the difference.
|
| This seems quite distinct from what is discussed in this
| thread, which is people feeling some kind of pressure to
| work long hours, or to be available after work hours when
| they're supposed to be doing personal stuff. And,
| usually, the reasons for being called up don't seem to be
| some genuinely exciting problem that it feels
| invigorating to tackle. Instead, it's typically some form
| of TPS report that needs pushing around.
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| I've had a chance recently to moonlight doing the work I did
| the first half of my 20s almost a decade after I left it for
| tech. Despite its dead end nature, I'm seriously thinking
| about returning to it.
|
| The work amounts to super overpaid (thanks unions) retail
| using antiquated software that it modernized could eliminate
| at least half the jobs, but since there are union staffing
| minimums and salaries the employer has no incentive.
|
| There's something nice about helping customers for a couple
| hours, doing some other mindless work which could be done in
| half the time if automated, and then going home.
|
| And the group of folks in the industry are mostly great to be
| around. Particularly after nearly 5 years of working from
| home in roles that are increasingly more isolated and less
| collaborative.
| cobertos wrote:
| > motivated more by my work being MEANINGFUL
|
| Do you have any guiding star for what work gives you meaning?
|
| I thought getting closer to the users/customers would help me.
| After all, software is for humans. But I found the social
| aspects of that, handling bugs, setting expectations for
| features, was tiresome and not meaningful. The only happiness I
| did find was when I saw my client/users flourish without me
| with the software I made tailored as best as it could be for
| the money. But that doesn't make a business unfortunately...
| nicbou wrote:
| I would say that anything that is opposed to Marx's concept
| of alienation would fit the bill. Work should feel impactful
| and your decisions should lead to some tangible output.
|
| It helps to be close to your users, or to build software that
| has a clear purpose. It's good to work on a small team where
| your input has a clear influence on the quality pf the
| product.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| Work satisfaction is a meme. Yes, there are people satisfied
| with their work, but realistically, this is not going to
| happen to you. Stop giving a fuck about your work, slack off
| as much as possible, and look for coworkers with whom you can
| build real human connection, instead of corporate NPCs.
| 9dev wrote:
| I don't know if that's sustainable. We're all stuck with
| this work-thing being one third of our life for the
| foreseeable time, so spending 33% of like, everything I'll
| ever experience on something I don't give a fuck about
| seems like both a lot of dull time and a bad decision
| overall.
| immibis wrote:
| Well, your choices are that or death - no matter whether
| you give it bare minimum effort or a lot of effort.
| Aeolun wrote:
| You you actually feel fulfilled giving anything minimum
| effort?
|
| Like, I'm not going to work overtime for free or
| anything, but the time I do work gets my best effort.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Cynicism is a cope for not doing the work. Minimum effort
| is exhausting for the long term.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| Work from home exists for a reason
| throw_pm23 wrote:
| "We're all stuck with this..."
|
| I think you are rationalizing your choices by thinking
| everything does the same. It is not true, some are not
| stuck anywhere, some choose to live a simpler life that
| needs less money, fewer compromises, etc. etc. the world
| is a big place.
| 9dev wrote:
| Sure. I was specifically talking to people browsing
| hacker news, which have a high probability of working a
| job in the capitalist economy. Of course there are other
| ways of life, but the predominant part of humanity does
| not choose those. So I still think it's appropriate to
| talk about "all of us" in this case.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| You still have to give people the impression you do a
| terrible good job and that you are working your ass out.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| That's the tricky part
| scott_w wrote:
| If I could pick a comment to explain a "self-fulfilling
| prophecy," it would be this one right here.
| morning-coffee wrote:
| Exactly... if you _want_ to be miserable at work, by all
| means, "slack off as much as possible".
|
| I think we forget the big picture that "no one gets out
| alive" and that it's up to each of us to spend the time
| we have in a way that makes us happy. If you can afford
| to not spend 1/3 of your time at a job in order to fund
| the remaining 2/3 of your existence, lucky you! But if
| not, choosing to slack off at a job you hate is
| essentially choosing to throw 1/3 of your life away being
| miserable. (Not judging if that's your choice, but its
| baffling to me.)
| scott_w wrote:
| That's my opinion, too. I also find that by taking this
| attitude, you guarantee that you'll only end up working
| jobs that confirm your worldview. I have friends who
| think my work experience is a wild fluke.
| stogot wrote:
| And it makes your colleagues miserable because they have
| to carry the load or slack off too, which inevitably
| means the whole team is disfunctional and should be let
| go
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I agree completely. I've had periods where I just slacked
| off and I was miserable, leading to a negative feedback
| loop. The only way to break out was ironically to
| actually work more, which led to more enjoyment of it.
| Cognitive dissonance is powerful.
| cobertos wrote:
| How is making this human connection w/ coworkers done
| remotely? Is it possible? I'm struggling with that.
|
| Is it reasonable to accept/leave a job based on no
| interesting connections?
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >What you are experiencing is the symptom of working in a large
| company where no matter how well you perform, you can not
| significantly move the needle yourself.
|
| You can't move the needle unless you are part of management and
| learn how to do politics. Large companies mean lots of politics
| being done. And you want to position yourself on the part of
| the winning team.
|
| Also, people skills always trumps technical skills. Being aware
| of that helped me immensely on my career, much more than
| anything else I could have done.
| Agingcoder wrote:
| This is an extremely important piece of advice. To drive
| change in a large org, you will need support, which will
| either come from management, or people on the ground - this
| is purely people skills. Just writing amazing code and
| shipping it isn't enough.
| Imustaskforhelp wrote:
| hmm surprising because I had mentioned how to win friends
| and influence people book by dale carnegie in some other
| comment on this post and one of the most sticky /
| remembered lines of this book is that even in a highly
| technical post , much of the success (approx 70% IIRC) can
| be because of having people skills.
|
| People skills matter , But I suppose in large
| organisations. I don't think people skills matter "that
| much" in open source (other than documentation and hey not
| messing up like attomatic and being a little bit nicer in
| general)
|
| Hell we should all try to be a little nicer in general ,
| not just in open source.
| Aeolun wrote:
| While this is true, I find myself depressed by the idea of
| exchanging coding for herding everyone in the right
| direction.
|
| I've been trying to make that switch as it's the only career
| prospect I have, but...
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| I can relate
|
| Would love to hear how others have solved this
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| In some sense, you don't solve it. You are correct to
| perceive you are at a crossroads. And the hard part is
| knowing that either choice may foreclose some
| possibilities on the other path.
|
| There's still plenty of time to change gears, or move
| back and forth between the two choices. There are also
| other paths; see my comment above.
|
| Important part is to not ignore the discomfort. I suggest
| reading Charity Majors' blog posts around leadership vs
| engineering roles.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| I'm in early 40s and going thru a minor midlife crisis
| around this. Feeling that I'd wasted time in my 20s
| building technical prowess only to see myself still be
| viewed as mostly fungible.
|
| I think my future is moving towards consulting and building
| my own products. If people want to fight each other to get
| a seat at the table, be my guest. I see it as a waste of
| life. I can already build significant projects on my own,
| and it's long overdue for me to reap all of the profit that
| those efforts generate.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Many companies have parallel IC tracks. And even though
| higher level ICs do need to "herd" more you're still doing
| a fair amount of technical work (maybe at least until
| director equivalent).
| Aeolun wrote:
| > maybe at least until director equivalent
|
| Hence the issue xD I'm at the top of what my track
| offers, but it feels silly to stay in the same place for
| the next 30 years.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| I agree and this is good advice that works well. My
| counterpoint is that if you are _very_ good at:
|
| finding things that could be better or tools that should
| exist but don't, and that if materialized would solve
| multiple problems at once instead of just one; and
|
| explaining why that's important in a way that everyone can
| buy into and dealing with naysayers who'll want to cut you
| down and doomers who will say it'll never work; and
|
| have the focus, discipline and grit to make it through a 10k
| LoC project and land it on the other side while ekeing out
| code review along the way and not tripping over loose cables
| and uneven steps of your initial design / architecture /
| model that was either flawed from the outset or not malleable
| enough to fix after a month of entrenchment into your code;
| and finally
|
| once you're ready, to then go over the entire codebase and
| lift the old code up into your new way of doing things so
| that there is no split brain between _the old way_ and your
| new tool:
|
| then you can make it as a 10x engineer. It is exhausting but
| so is running up and down a football field, cycling laps
| around France, or serving tennis balls at 90mph for three
| hours at a time. Taking the elite-coder staff-engineering
| path isn't for the faint hearted.
| ausbah wrote:
| first i think what you've presented is a fiction, in most
| environments such large projects are surely going to
| involve multiple people if not multiple team. and then why?
| unlikely you're be financially compensated for all the
| impact you're really delivering. anything less is just
| exploitation
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I wouldn't say people skills "always" trump technical skills.
| Some projects require strong technical chops such that no
| amount of people skills will be sufficient. If everyone
| thought this way we wouldn't have made so many of the recent
| major tech advances.
|
| Now given a fixed level of technical skills it's obviously
| always better to have more people skills, perhaps that's what
| you meant.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| It's taking me a long time to learn these lessons - thanks for
| the tip
| hinkley wrote:
| Or sometimes the needles you can move seem unimportant to the
| org, even if they have objective value. You get a few pats like
| OP but no real recognition.
|
| Though maybe that's why you can move those needles; nobody is
| guarding them jealously.
| varispeed wrote:
| People have wrong priorities when working in big corporations.
| If you want to make an impact you should work towards creating
| your own business and working in big corporation is just a mean
| to achieve that. Focus on growing your bank account, good
| credit history, live lean and in your free time nurture the
| idea you have, make steps to make it happen.
|
| In some jurisdictions you need to check your employment
| contract as company may feel entitled to your idea you are
| developing outside of work hours. Ensure you don't have any
| such stipulations in the contract.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I work at a much larger company than Stripe and I've definitely
| "moved the needle" myself. It's all about finding high leverage
| projects to work on.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| There are absolutely a lucky few at even the biggest mega-
| corps that are seeing their work make huge impacts. But most
| people won't find those projects or there won't be space in
| them.
| jondlm wrote:
| Thank you for the kind words!
|
| Thankfully I'm not ground down to a nub. I've found a lot of
| support over the last few years outside of work.
| yokoprime wrote:
| As someone who has been on a journey from a 6 man startup to a
| larger company going through a merger I'm really feeling the
| pull of creating/joining a new startup. If nothing else for the
| joy of being a small team on a mission and work with people who
| are really invested.
| guitheengineer wrote:
| I've seen this pattern repeated so many times that I feel like it
| can be generalized:
|
| when your mental health collapses nothing else holds value, it
| really doesn't matter if you achieved your dream job, got all the
| prestige and income you initially desired, being mentally healthy
| is the basis of the pyramid.
|
| Something I learned based on that is to really prioritize it!
|
| Even if someone considers their career to be everything, realize
| that spending some of your earnings seeking professional help
| (therapy) is even a cheap investment considering that if you
| break and have to quit, you're going to lose hundreds of
| thousands, and to recover it will suck (I've heard of people
| trying to quit tech altogether after burning out)
|
| Sneaking something else related to mental health: sleep should be
| #1 health wise, when you're consistently not getting quality
| sleep for months, there's nothing you can really do to get around
| that, it will eventually just break you (your body won't care if
| you're coping with coffe or exercising!)
|
| Btw that's great writing and I really appreciate your courage in
| sharing this! I hope you'll find your joy again.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| This is a great post and I'm glad the author was able to share
| it.
|
| I feel like I had a similar experience. Start working at a new
| job, hustle for several years, get promoted, projects do well,
| then ended up feeling bored and unexcited. Not exactly burnt out,
| but burnt out on the current pattern of life. I quit and moved to
| another country.
|
| I don't know if the author is "burnt out" or not. This is a
| privileged take, but sometimes it feels like a full time job is a
| leash. Life becomes so defined by your job it can feel
| suffocating. You can take a few weeks off, but a few weeks a year
| is hardly enough to have your own life.
| abc-1 wrote:
| Great blog, but reading it gave me deep secondhand anxiety and
| even exhaustion. It's strikingly clear this person is a people
| pleaser to potentially unhealthy levels, maybe due to low self-
| esteem or something else, and it could be contributing to the
| depression. Legitimately, therapy might be the right call here.
| But on the positive side, they do seem like a good person who
| wants to build good things. That's commendable.
| Jgrubb wrote:
| 100% agree. Please OP consider therapy or at least a next job
| that you can't give too much of a shit about. Care about the
| quality of the work you're shipping because it's fun. Be a
| human but keep your personal life personal.
|
| People pleasing, approval seeking makes you the battery in
| somebody else's flashlight. You will always find yourself used
| up by others. Don't give others control of your joy.
| cobertos wrote:
| I've been in this position a few times now. God is it hard to
| explain to other people, especially when you know how success is
| metricized by others and silently judged. But at the same time,
| the collection of life experiences gained by doing stupid,
| impulsive things has made me happier than I could have expected
| in the long run. And has shown me a lot of things I would not
| have seen otherwise.
| gradschoolfail wrote:
| Time for PG to, with chainsaw & pernach, remind Patrick about
| founder mode?
| NetOpWibby wrote:
| Big companies are great for job security, not so much for
| meaningful work (unless you're senior, it seems). I've been at a
| massive company for four years and my work is uninspiring. Can't
| wait to get back in the startup life.
| shubhamjain wrote:
| Every company I have worked at I have hit this point of mental
| health collapse, just like OP. At this point, I can try
| everything--"Treating it just as a job", "finding happiness
| elsewhere", "just get shit done"--but nothing works. For a long
| while, I only found myself to blame. I felt idiotic for not
| having the energy to work like everyone else does.
|
| Past one and a half years, have been years of self-discovery. I
| have been hacking on projects full-time (hopefully, I will make
| sustainable money soon). And it's been so fun, and relieving, and
| joyful to direct your creative energy to projects, with no
| authority to answer to. It's not without difficult times though.
| Sometimes, I feel blocked to the point of abandoning months of
| hard work, but I am slowly learning how to avoid those
| situations.
|
| Honestly, everything I was advised was a lie (or at least, didn't
| work for me). I like being able to shape things, and use my
| creative energy to do useful things. Politics, and bureaucratic
| processes, drain my energy to an extent that I simply can't
| function. And no matter how hard I try, I can't ignore it with
| the mindset of "it's just a job." I can't find happiness in
| "being promoted" or whatever rating I am given.
|
| I just want to ship good software. When I am driven, I will
| forget about everything and just dive in to solve the problem.
| Sadly though, it's not an easy ask in a modern-day corporate
| environment.
|
| So, I would say what you're experiencing is normal in many ways.
| Don't kill yourself over it. If you have a list of fun projects,
| attempt them. For many of us, creative energy is precious, and
| needs to be directed well to keep ourselves sane.
| celltalk wrote:
| I think this is the feeling when you realize what you're doing
| does not matter. No big purpose, just a mere immortal. I think
| you need a bigger purpose bro, like really. Reach out.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| These symptoms are a classic sign of burn out. One thing I notice
| in your writing is you're very tied up in things having meaning
| and mattering in some specific way. This itself can lead to
| burnout because if everything must matter you must be emotionally
| invested in everything. But you can care without it mattering to
| you. You can do a good job without being totally invested in
| everything about it. You can love what you do without it having
| significance in every detail.
|
| In a complex job with a fast pace, a fair amount of tech debt
| around every edge, a relentless pace of innovation happening, and
| - yes - growth, there's too much to be invested in everything. It
| doesn't have to matter that much. The parts you really care
| about, the craft and quality of your work, your relationships,
| mentoring and growing the people around you, seeing things get
| better one piece at a time, and a few things - they can matter.
| But everything can't. And even those you have to at some very
| deep level realize don't matter really.
|
| Stripe doesn't really exist in this world. It's a shared fiction
| to help frame the interactions between you and a few people you
| actually interact with in a day. The real truth is the only thing
| that happens in your days is you type on a computer and talk to a
| few people. It actually doesn't matter in any meaningful way what
| you typed or some higher purpose around humbling honesty or
| exothermic curiosity or PMEs or whatever stories we tell
| ourselves to create some sort of reality out of the fiction. The
| only important things you really do is how you shape the lives of
| the people you interact with, and how you shape your own life.
|
| Burnout is hard. Adopt a daily meditation practice. Let your mind
| heal by letting go of meaning and practice enjoying the moment
| you're in with whomever you're with, but most especially
| yourself. The joy will come back faster the faster you let go of
| things needing to matter or have deeper meaning, especially when
| those things are a fiction like a company or a career or any of
| the other small and big lies we've been told and we reinforce to
| ourselves daily. I know I've been there man, and I know exactly -
| exactly - the sensations and experiences you describe. It gets
| better, but I think once you get there it never totally goes away
| and it's easier to slip back.
|
| FWIW I don't think burnout is the same as depression. I've felt
| both and burnout is different. It's that loss of ability to
| engage - which overlaps with depression - but usually doesn't
| come with the thoughts of hopeless despair and desire for life to
| be over. It's just more of a deadness and inability to initiate
| what you think you should want to do but can't, and it
| pervasively impacts everything.
|
| It gets better.
| Gooblebrai wrote:
| Very good write-up, thanks!
| 3vidence wrote:
| Commenting to save this for myself.
|
| Of the many many hours I've spent on this website, this comment
| probably made me feel more relaxed than anything else.
|
| Please continue your kind and helpful words on the internet:)
| kelnos wrote:
| Meta: if you click on a comment's timestamp, you'll get a
| "favorite" link that you can use to bookmark a comment.
| jalopy wrote:
| Great advice.
|
| What books/resources do you suggest to follow more on this path
| of meditation (possibly also stoicism)?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| For me I studied vipassana and Buddhism, and did the daily
| meditations with Gil Fronsdal[0] on his amazing audio
| dharma[1] which has a lot of resources (and his teachings
| dating back 25+ years recorded and freely available there).
| If you're in the area you can visit the insight meditation
| center[2] in Redwood City.
|
| I think these things helped me a lot in my recovery but I
| also don't think it's necessary or sufficient. I think my
| advice above is the real key, but vipassana and Buddhism give
| a pretty structured approach to achieve the appropriate
| detachment from what's not truly real and the appreciation
| for what is. IMO that's the basis for recovering from burnout
| durably. But the other thing is there's no magic, it takes
| time.
|
| 0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Fronsdal 1
| https://www.audiodharma.org/speakers/1 2
| https://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/
| replwoacause wrote:
| Very insightful comment and it describes quite accurately what
| my experience with burnout has been. Thank you
| alexpetralia wrote:
| Bingo.
| rnts08 wrote:
| This is spot on.
|
| Thank you for pointing it out.
| dionian wrote:
| I second this. Well put
| morning-coffee wrote:
| Very well said and spot on. Thanks for posting.
| ryandrake wrote:
| The way I conquered burnout was by having a life outside of
| work that isn't computer related. In my early twenties, the
| only notable attribute of my life was work and computers. I'd
| wake up in the morning, go to work programming things, then get
| home and either do programming side projects or play computer
| games, then I'd go to sleep and repeat it the next day. I had
| no hobbies, no friends or acquaintances outside of the people I
| met at work, and nothing to drive me besides the artificial
| goals at work. Recipe for burnout and it constantly happened.
|
| Eventually, I got married, had a family, found things to do in
| the community, and do plenty of sports and hobbies that involve
| shutting off the computer. Even though my jobs after my 20s
| have been even more soul-crushing than the ones I had earlier,
| I've never had a hint of burnout. When I'm done with work, I
| shut off the computer and that's it. I'll go build a piece of
| furniture, or repair my car, spend time with my kid, _anything_
| that doesn 't involve office politics, two week sprints, or
| status reports. Just having a life outside of work has done
| wonders for my mental health. No meditation or spirituality
| needed!
| kelnos wrote:
| Yup, avoiding burnout is all about having rich alternatives
| for your time. If you find yourself working yourself to the
| point that you don't have the energy to do anything else
| outside of work, you need to cut back.
|
| If you do get burned out, the only remedy I've found is time
| away, sometimes many months of it. That's really tough (or
| impossible) for many people's financial situations, though.
| Mindjolt wrote:
| Commenting because I want to revisit this at a future point of
| time
| wtroughton wrote:
| "A shared fiction in the world to help frame interactions
| between people". You sir are a natural philosopher.
|
| I think what's universally important is to keep active and
| engaged in what we're doing. Some of us have to tell fictions
| that what we're doing has meaning, whilst others just know what
| brings meaning to their life.
| kelvinjps10 wrote:
| Great comment
| fblp wrote:
| I've never seen much gratitude for a HN post. Thank you!
| kelnos wrote:
| Incredibly well said.
|
| It feels flippant to say, "stop caring so much about things",
| but it's actually great advice.
|
| We should think of ourselves as having a limited "caring
| budget", and be judicious in how we spend that budget. Part of
| the trick is figuring out what that budget is, since it can be
| different for different people, or even different for the same
| person at different times in their life.
|
| I think framing burnout in this way is helpful: you get burned
| out when too much is too important to you, and you've
| overextended your emotional ability to give a part of yourself
| to each of those things, for too much time.
|
| An important thing about that to me is that it doesn't at all
| consider whether things are going well or poorly with all those
| "too important" things. Certainly things going poorly will
| increase stress, but even caring too much about too many things
| that are all going well can burn you out.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >he asked the team, "for this meeting I'd like us to try and
| introduce ourselves a little differently. If you're comfortable,
| I'd like us to try and be 10% more vulnerable than we normally
| would in a work setting." I remember feeling a mix of anxiety and
| excitement rise in my chest. I sat pondering what I would share.
| I decided to go for more than 10%. I shared about how my marriage
| had almost collapsed a couple years prior and a taste of how
| painful it was. Some of my coworkers shared deeper things I'd
| never heard in a work setting. It was awkward. It was beautiful.
|
| I'd rather not have my manager forcing me to do group therapy. I
| owe the company some work hours and they own me money.
|
| If I want to have personal relations with someone from my work,
| befriend somebody, share personal things, that is my choice. My
| personal life is not the company business.
|
| Of course I wouldn't say all that to the manager, but 'I'll put
| him on the list of people I should be careful about, and fake
| some confessions.
| soneca wrote:
| Well, the manager asked only for "10% more vulnerable". That
| seems pretty far from "being forced into group therapy" in my
| perception.
|
| It was the author and colleagues that decided to overstate, and
| seemingly did not regret. Groups of humans sometimes have
| connections like these, whatever the environment they are in.
|
| I am sure other similar meeting with the same prompt only
| generated people saying they have two cats, they I am anxious
| about learning a new programming language or that they do not
| quite understand Stripe business model
| Tainnor wrote:
| > Well, the manager asked only for "10% more vulnerable".
|
| And they have absolutely no right to do that. "Being
| vulnerable" is not part of any job description.
| wkjagt wrote:
| That's why they said "if you're comfortable". It was
| totally optional. I don't understand your strong reaction
| to this.
| DJHenk wrote:
| Because you cannot freely say no to that. They have
| authority over you. Even if they promise it won't affect
| their opinion of you, you never know if that is actually
| true. So you are forced to play along.
| Tainnor wrote:
| "Are you planning to have children? You don't have to
| answer"
| echoangle wrote:
| Asking a question in front of a group, bur adding a "if
| you're comfortable", doesn't really make the problem go
| away. There's always a pressure to answer, even if you
| say that answering is optional. It's not a horrible
| violation but it's still kind of weird and unnecessary in
| a professional context.
| baumy wrote:
| I promise you I mean this sincerely, and not in a memey
| internet insult kind of way - are you perhaps autistic?
|
| I ask because this is exactly the type of comment one of
| my siblings would make, and she is on the spectrum. She
| wouldn't be able to understand the social dynamics at
| play here, whereas for other folks it's just common
| sense. "Optional" is not really optional in some social
| settings, and that's something autistic folks struggle
| with being aware of, much less understanding. The
| activity may be optional in the most pedantic sense; you
| won't be struck down by lightning if you decide not to
| participate. But there will be consequences.
|
| All of which is another reason why this whole exercise is
| an awful idea, considering that the number of autistic
| folks in software engineering is probably a bit higher
| than the population baseline.
| Nimitz14 wrote:
| Kind of hilarious to make this suggestion while
| simultaneously revealing yourself to not understand
| nuance or commonsense.
| baumy wrote:
| Please, elaborate. What nuance and commonsense do you
| feel I'm not understanding?
| wkjagt wrote:
| After reading all the comments, I'm starting to wonder.
| fragmede wrote:
| You are not your code, but putting my code up to be torn
| apart in a PR definitely feels like being vulnerable to me.
| It's a good thing for it to be torn apart and scrutinized,
| so as to make the product better, which is what we're all
| after, but it still touches a nerve when the reviewer is an
| ass about it.
| Tainnor wrote:
| This is definitely not what anyone would think of when
| prompted to "be vulnerable".
| fragmede wrote:
| Yup. Absolutely zero percent chance a Jr dev's expressed
| vulnerability that day was "when I see sr dev is sitting
| at his desk muttering "stupid fucking idiots" and
| reviewing PRs, I get scared and anxious".
| random42 wrote:
| Making high performance teams is part of their job
| description though, and there is research to indicate that
| teams with strong social bonds perform better.
| Tainnor wrote:
| Yeah but you don't form strong social bonds through
| awkward team exercises. The best team I worked on was
| super high performing and we did end up sharing personal
| stuff on our spare time eventually (and some of us are
| still friends years later). That all happened
| organically.
|
| What didn't work, however, was the office manager's
| increasingly awkward attempts to force socialising. When
| at some point we raised the issue (politely!) that this
| was often distracting, he became offended and lashed out.
| We later also found out that he was basically spying on
| us and reporting back to HQ.
|
| It's one of the reasons why I'm incredibly wary of people
| who try too hard to be my "buddy" at work, especially if
| they're not peers.
| tbrownaw wrote:
| Correlations tend to disappear when one of the correlated
| things starts to get used as a tunable.
|
| Related: [Goodhart's Law](https://www.oxfordreference.com
| /display/10.1093/oi/authority...)
| 4hg4ufxhy wrote:
| What does 10% even mean? My food delivery order forgot the
| fries and it was upsetting?
|
| I'm pretty sure this is not what they are expecting.
| shpx wrote:
| It means whatever you feel like it means given how you feel
| in the moment/situation. It's not a task you can fail.
| echoangle wrote:
| > It's not a task you can fail.
|
| Really? If you are too honest, I am pretty sure you can
| fail spectacularly. Therapy is confidential for a reason.
| sensanaty wrote:
| 10% "more vulnerable" for me in a work setting would amount
| to something like "the eggs I made this morning were a bit
| overcooked", because I don't share anything vulnerable about
| myself at work. Especially not with managers. I have a
| sneaking suspicion that wouldn't be an acceptable answer in
| that meeting, however.
| varispeed wrote:
| This is pure simple abuse. Manager uses position of power to
| potentially injure his co-workers.
|
| Playing "I am somewhat therapist myself" in the workplace
| should be sackable offence.
| yunohn wrote:
| I've heard of exactly these "vulnerability sharing" exercises
| from colleagues, but luckily have not experienced it myself.
|
| Anyone starting to over-share becomes very problematic,
| because it forces everyone to conform. One of my colleagues
| didn't feel like sharing anything personal, and he was
| silently outcast for the rest of the offsite and it continued
| to bite him in the ass for the rest of his time in that team.
|
| The examples were very similar to those mentioned - people
| talking about their divorces, sex life, etc. I don't think
| it's fair to force colleagues to share such stories with each
| other.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| "I think your question is overly invasive and inappropriate
| in a professional work setting, and I'm not going to answer
| it."
|
| Is that more than 10%?
|
| Another option would be what Norm Macdonald did when Larry
| King asked him "what's something nobody knows about you" and
| he answered "I'm a deeply closeted homosexual." Just go over
| the top.
| Tainnor wrote:
| I agree and this wasn't the only red flag in the post for me.
| The reverence for a company that does, in the end, "just"
| process payments or the part about "a billionaire liked my
| project"... I feel like there's something rather unhealthy
| about that kind of mindset.
|
| All the best to the author of the post, hopefully they can find
| more meaningful work.
| whstl wrote:
| _> The reverence for a company that does, in the end, "just"
| process payments_
|
| It is funny how the more unimportant the company is, the more
| this kind of reverence is expected.
|
| For me there was a stark contrast between two jobs I had:
|
| Consultancy where I worked on software for local government
| that millions literally depend on? Keep your work-life 100%
| separate.
|
| Marketing startup that spammed Google with crazy amounts of
| SEO-spam? Lots of instructions from HR to ask about personal
| matters in 1-on-1 meetings, weekly 2h mandatory
| confraternization followed by free beer, random CEO speech
| about his favorite topic for 1h every month.
| tbrownaw wrote:
| At least with those specific examples, it could just as
| easily be startups being inexperienced and more susceptible
| to silly fads.
| jondlm wrote:
| Your red flags are absolutely merited. I won't deny that.
| cpursley wrote:
| It's pretty nuts, putting out your dirty laundry in public is a
| surefire way to self sabotage - especially in a work setting.
| In American culture, there's a lot of "positive self help" talk
| about being open about these things. But the reality is - it
| actually just provides drama and ammunition to people who might
| not have your best interests at heart. Some things are best
| kept between your close trusted friends and family or
| therapist, no matter how trendy the culture is about being
| "open".
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| > Some things are best kept between your close trusted
| friends and family or therapist, no matter how trendy the
| culture is about being "open".
|
| This makes total sense if you have a therapist and / or have
| friends you can be vulnerable with (and know how to). But
| there are undoubtedly those who do not have that. For them
| the risk of career sabotage vs a change of improved quality
| of life might be worth considering. I don't know where the
| breakdown is, probably against mandatory sharing in the work
| setting on the account of an average workspace being pretty
| adversarial. However, if I could make a call for my younger
| self I would choose to share.
| Imustaskforhelp wrote:
| I also agree with this sentiment but at the same time I
| think it boils down to how you interpret these things , for
| op it was one of the greatest things but to somebody else ,
| this makes boss not likeable.
|
| I think this shows that the boss was going out of his way
| which I "personally" appreciate.
|
| I don't know what people expect managers / boss to do.
| Somebody on team expects their boss to X and somebody else
| on that same team expects their boss to be anything but X.
|
| If I ever become a manager , I am probably taking this
| boss's approach , I think its good to have some talks like
| this. I am also much inspired by the likes of charles
| schwab and dale carnegie's how to win friends and influence
| people so probably there is a bias here
| thunky wrote:
| > I don't know what people expect managers / boss to do
|
| What they do should be related to the company work,
| otherwise they're overstepping. They're not social
| workers. They have to respect the privacy and
| independence of their coworkers.
|
| > If I ever become a manager , I am probably taking this
| boss's approach
|
| Please don't. Coworkers can obviously have social
| relationships but they should grow organically without
| being "managed".
|
| You know the best way for that to happen is? Let them
| work together. They'll build their own relationships.
| They don't need your help. If they don't work together
| enough for this to happen naturally then they're
| strangers to each other anyway and that's ok too.
| dymk wrote:
| If you were my boss and did this I'd be going to my skip
| manager to complain.
| captnObvious wrote:
| It sounded like an optional request not a command. I've
| managed and I've been managed and the relationship ships
| I've built along the way are deep enough to have
| conversations like these. We're doing life with this
| people it's not a dystopian novel about capitalism. If
| you have a genuine person as your boss moments like these
| help form friendships, and don't feel like a dark Dilbert
| comic.
|
| Friendships increase team communicability which bolster
| project success.
| dymk wrote:
| A manager asking you to do something is never "just" an
| optional request
| hhh wrote:
| They absolutely can be. You can push back against your
| manager.
| twelve40 wrote:
| Still, you'd rather save your push back privileges -
| which come with a cost - for something actually important
| and work-related. Not for random crap like that, being
| put on the spot randomly in a personal way.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Use it and get more pushback power plus get caution when
| manager approaches. Getting labelled get can benefits and
| negatives.
| watwut wrote:
| I said no to things and world did not ended. You
| absolutely can say no. If you can't, you need to change
| the team or job.
| elygre wrote:
| Thank you for this comment. I know the US is different
| from where I live, but the distrust shown in other
| comments just made me very depressed.
| Tainnor wrote:
| This has nothing to do with it. I'm not from the US and I
| find this deeply unprofessional.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| An "optional request" in a public group setting like that
| is not optional. You were non-optionally forced to
| respond to the challenge one way or another. If you don't
| share, then you're the guy who opted not to share. It
| turns off the touchy feely types who like it and don't
| understand the problem and can be "not a team player"
| fodder for anyone who wants it.
|
| The actual respectful and considerate way is not to put
| people in such positions in the first place.
|
| Like asking something from someone where it would be some
| unusual imposition or favor (like something that would be
| ok to ask a friend or family but not a mere aquaintance)
| and telling them it's ok if they say no. That is an empty
| statement. You were not supposed to put them in the
| position where they had to say no.
|
| You can allow for people to not be robots without putting
| other people into awkward positions they didn't deserve
| to be put in.
|
| It's definitely favoring some people at the expense of
| others. Like the gp comment, now they not only have to do
| their normal job, they also have to generate bs for their
| manager. The manager should be the one who has to figure
| out how to work with their different people, not the
| other way around. That is the managers explicit role that
| they supposedly get paid more for and what gives them the
| authority to manage and judge anyone else. That's their
| actual job rather than coding or whatever. Instead, they
| are making their team members all conform to them, on top
| of their actual jobs which are supposed to be something
| other than managing people.
| sigseg1v wrote:
| I mean, I am a manager and if I saw another manager doing
| this type of exercise I would probably report it because
| it seems extremely inappropriate and they would probably
| want a heads up that we have a manager trying to be a
| wannabe therapist rather than trying to foster a safe and
| productive team environment.
| biorach wrote:
| > For them the risk of career sabotage vs a change of
| improved quality of life might be worth considering
|
| The risk is way too high
| DeathArrow wrote:
| It depends on your objectives. You can use those
| "confessions" to play the scenario to your advantage.
| Nashooo wrote:
| In what way is this ever providing someone with 'ammunition'
| and how is this self-sabotage? What are you afraid someone
| would do with this kind of information?
|
| Reading this comment and others feels like people have read a
| bit too much Sun Tzu and are treating what could be
| collegiality as warfare.
| thdhhghgbhy wrote:
| You haven't been in corporate long enough bub.
| whutmuffin wrote:
| Maybe you've never worked at a company like this. Did you
| not see the note about his perf review, which had nothing
| to do with his performance (the actual outcome) but instead
| had random negative feedback? Like not involving coworkers
| enough? What if your "confession" indicated that you have a
| hard time opening up and involving others? Couching your
| feedback in a personal insecurity makes it far less likely
| it will be challenged since the person already has a
| complex about it.
| Tainnor wrote:
| > no matter how trendy the culture is about being "open"
|
| I've noticed this trend in recent years to be "open about
| mental health", etc. And I think by itself this is great,
| mental health is important. But invariably, especially in
| management/HR settings (or in the entertainment industry), it
| is done in an incredibly shallow way.
|
| Mental health is hard. Just talking openly isn't magically
| going to fix things and may even initially make things worse.
| It may release feelings that need to be carefully managed
| e.g. by a therapist. Obviously, no company would ever be able
| to provide that. Instead, they're just looking for "I started
| running every morning and was able to fix my depression" kind
| of stories.
| whatshisface wrote:
| "I used to have anxiety over being a good developer, but
| then I realized that it was about hitting story points, not
| learning Rust. Now I deliver business value regularly and
| have been able to cancel my appointments with my
| therapist."
|
| "Being on-call 24/7 helps me feel like I'm a part of
| something, fulfilling a deep want for belonging that being
| kicked off the Girl Scout troop created in me."
|
| "I've always lacked a father figure. When you told me to
| spend less time browsing HackerNews and more time on Jira,
| I felt like I was part of a real family."
| c0balt wrote:
| That reminds me heavily of krazams's "I Have Delivered
| Value... But At What Cost?",
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYvhC_RdIwQ
| ValentinA23 wrote:
| This happened to me. The result:
|
| - secret slack room to help me overcome my depression (wasn't
| invited of course, I just spotted it several times while
| looking at my colleagues' screens)
|
| - lowest paid member in the team, while also being one of if
| not the most productive. 12x: verified. 30x: speculated if I
| had control over the architecture.
|
| - 70h/week, no vacations, for 3 years. No paid overtime of
| any form.
|
| - Double bind situation where I was used as a punching ball
| between the CTO and the #2 employee.
|
| - Excluded from secret negotiations to obtain a raise.
|
| You know what I did ? I quitted, cold turkey. That's when the
| CEO started to hate on me, feeling betrayed. The #2 left
| shortly after confiding he wanted to punch the CTO in the
| face. After realizing hiring someone to replace me wasn't
| cutting it, they distributed overtime to everybody on the
| team. Result: unionization. One year after my departure I
| received a call from the COO telling me he was willing to
| hire me back at the condition I would behave (since I was
| thrown at every hot issue, semantic propagation tied in their
| mind the idea I was also problematic). He was let go shortly
| after and replaced by a manager from the holding company (if
| you know what I mean). I haven't worked in 6-7 years. Most
| colleagues who left have had a similar empty period.
| a123b456c wrote:
| I mean no harm, but I want to caution that you may have
| just over-shared in public again. I wish you well.
| ValentinA23 wrote:
| Why do you think it could be problematic ?
| snapcaster wrote:
| "- 70h/week, no vacations, for 3 years. No paid overtime of
| any form."
|
| jesus, i don't know how you managed that for 3 years
| varispeed wrote:
| > I'd like us to try and be 10% more vulnerable than we
| normally would
|
| I would have reported manager to HR for this and if they didn't
| take action I would take company to tribunal.
|
| This is pure simple coercion into sharing personal data that
| then other workers could use against you.
|
| I can't see the world where sharing personal stuff at work is
| ever appropriate, let alone be subjected to peer pressure to
| share it.
| wtfparanoid wrote:
| what kind of dystopian workplace do you go to where people
| are looking to use things against you?
|
| The jobs I stick with are the ones where colleagues have got
| each others back.
|
| All this zero-sum game playing toxicity is what ruins work
| for the collaborative pro-social people. Find a work place
| that doesn't reward that kind of behaviour.
| runarberg wrote:
| I don't know whether you are American or not, but I find it
| ironic that on a forum who's demographic skews American,
| this sentiment of anti-individualism at the workplace is so
| widely shared.
|
| America is supposed to be this super-freedom, super-
| individualistic place. Except when you are a worker at a
| workplace. Then you are supposed to spend at least 40 hours
| a week (except you are supposed to _want_ to spend more
| time than that; and most do [except they don't want to]),
| you are supposed to leave your politics behind, don't talk
| about politics at work, you are supposed to do everything
| your boss tells you without question, and certainly don't
| bring in your morals. Your workplace is a dictatorship (in
| a freedom loving country) and you are not supposed to
| complain about it. You are supposed to like your work, so
| you are not even entitled to your feelings. And suddenly
| your workplace is supposed to be this communist utopia,
| where every worker has a task, and the work is supposed to
| make them happy, and the whole workplace has a comradery of
| peers. Except you are all making money for your boss (or
| worse, your shareholders) and only keep a tiny portion of
| what you produce, but you are not supposed to complain and
| definitely not supposed to unite in bargaining for better,
| only unite in being exploited (except you aren't supposed
| to see it that way).
|
| The American workplace is probably as far away from the
| American dream as it possibly could be.
| ryanackley wrote:
| First of all, you should be aware that Stripe was founded
| by two guys from Ireland and it's based in San Francisco.
| This is the epicenter of the American political left.
| This is the side of American politics that cares about
| worker's rights, treatment, etc.
|
| Ignoring that, your characterization isn't accurate at
| all for American software companies in my experience. I'm
| an American and I've worked overseas in Australia. In
| addition, most of the current technical team that I am
| currently on is based in the UK.
|
| If anything, I've found other western cultures to be more
| discouraging of openly challenging management decisions.
| However, the differences are very very small. Working for
| a UK/Australia/German company is exactly the same as
| working for an American company. The day-to-day culture
| depends a lot on the people who run the company rather
| than their nationality. Trust me, there are jerks
| everywhere in the world.
| varispeed wrote:
| > what kind of dystopian workplace do you go to where
| people are looking to use things against you?
|
| Any corporate environment. You'll get stabbed in the back
| sooner or later.
|
| > where colleagues have got each others back.
|
| That doesn't sound healthy if people have to get each
| others back - usually means there are some bad actors that
| you'll need to cover up for. Do the job, be polite and
| leave ego at home. There is no need for politics, gossip
| and other meaningless activities.
|
| > work for the collaborative pro-social people.
|
| That sounds dystopian to me. I prefer to have social life
| outside of work, with actual friends that I choose, not HR.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"That sounds dystopian to me. I prefer to have social
| life outside of work, with actual friends that I choose,
| not HR."
|
| This. Companies doing social thing is nothing but trying
| to fool employees into feeling like they owe to company.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Suggesting people share 10% more of some vague stuff is not
| coercion by any definition of that word, especially since
| there is no way to prove how much % you shared.
| Imustaskforhelp wrote:
| This isn't and shouldn't be the typical response to such
| things.
|
| The boss had also become vulnerable asking you to be 10% more
| vulnerable.
|
| I think I would respect it more than harsh cold calculating
| boss.
|
| And also the chinese gospel's taking its effect here , the
| post above this paraphrased it differently and this has taken
| it to completely different level.
|
| Nobody is forcing you with a gun to tell things or else you
| are fired
|
| the boss just said , " Hey if you are comfortable , lets try
| to be a little vulnerable " and if you didn't like it you
| could've said " hey boss , I appreciate your gesture but I
| really really wouldn't like to share it as it would be a
| violation of my privacy , hope you understand "
|
| This would probably be my approach if I was one of those
| people who hated boss asking him such thing but I don't. I
| think I like it.
| ahajxjxjxbx wrote:
| Trust is earned. A person you don't know immediately asking
| you to be vulnerable is predatory. Commonly seen in cults,
| frats, etc but at least you opt in to those (and can opt
| out).
|
| Agreeing to work with a new manager is putting you in a
| vulnerable enough state. Build that trust over time - you
| likely don't even need to hear about coworkers failed
| marriages.
| varispeed wrote:
| > The boss had also become vulnerable asking you to be 10%
| more vulnerable.
|
| That's really irrelevant. It's like taking your pants down,
| showing your privates and assuming your coworkers will do
| the same.
|
| Absolutely unacceptable especially when it comes from
| position of power, where workers may think that if they
| don't engage they'll get fired or won't get promotion. It's
| coercion.
|
| > the boss just said , " Hey if you are comfortable , lets
| try to be a little vulnerable " and if you didn't like it
| you could've said " hey boss , I appreciate your gesture
| but I really really wouldn't like to share it as it would
| be a violation of my privacy , hope you understand "
|
| This is never innocent. If someone's life depends on the
| job, they'll comply as they don't want to second guess if
| their refusal will lead to them end up being homeless.
| They'll share details they don't want to and get injured.
| jondlm wrote:
| My boss shared first and was very much clear about it being
| optional.
|
| People bring a lot of context into these conversations and
| make a lot of assumptions. There is a lot of nuance here
| and that's tough to sit with.
| Tainnor wrote:
| Even if it was indeed fully optional and nobody felt the
| obligation to share even though they didn't want to
| (which I find hard to believe), you have to consider that
| you're also imposing on the people who are listening.
| They didn't sign up for group therapy either and sitting
| through accounts of potentially tragic events might be an
| unnecessary emotional stressor for them (e.g. maybe they
| were also recently divorced or lost someone to an
| illness), _especially_ if they 're expected to go back to
| work and be productive afterwards.
| serial_dev wrote:
| I wouldn't necessarily be worried about them using it against
| me later, just the fact that they want to force me to open up
| and be pretend buddies is annoying. It's a work relationship.
|
| It could be just me enjoying remote work, but I am not looking
| to be friends with them 4000 km away. I'm too old for this, I
| know all my work friendships faded away in a couple of years
| and even in those years we focused on work and chat about
| career.
|
| Don't force me to share personal things with everyone. I'll
| share it if I feel like it with the ones that I feel like it.
| Aeolun wrote:
| To be fair, 10% more vulnerable than "I won't talk about my
| private live at work," is still "I won't talk about my private
| life at work."
|
| I find it strange that the same people that ask you "How are
| you doing?" Without expecting an answer, are so into this kinda
| fake buddy buddy thing.
| wkjagt wrote:
| Post: "If you're comfortable, I'd like us to try and be 10%
| more vulnerable"
|
| This comment: "I'd rather not have my manager forcing me to do
| group therapy."
|
| How did "if you're comfortable" become "forcing me", and "try
| and be 10% more vulnerable" become "group therapy"?
| hosteur wrote:
| Probably because of the power asymmetry.
| molochai wrote:
| Power asymmetry and also group pressure. There is still
| plenty of tacit pressure to share despite the "optional"
| caveat. Someone who says directly "I don't like this, no
| thank you" even in very deferential words will garner some
| degree of negativity, either from the manager or the group.
| Same for someone who shares too much and winds up sobbing,
| or someone who shares a vulnerability inconsequential in
| comparison to what others share.
| twelve40 wrote:
| I don't even know how I would react if i was caught off-
| guard with a stupid question like that out of the blue
| with everyone watching. On a good day, I would probably
| laugh it off and say something obviously idiotic like "my
| vulnerability is that i work too hard" to indicate that I
| don't find this amusing. On a bad day, caught off-guard,
| I might actually take the bait, "become vulnerable" and
| blurt out something far more stupid in front of
| everybody.
| kroolik wrote:
| Its not difficult to imagine a person saying 'i have nothing
| i want to share here' be stigmatised in future. As a person
| who doesnt want to work together and be part of the company
| culture.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| Or just share regular story you would normally share, when
| introducing yourself in work setting? I'm 100% sure nobody
| would care.
| XorNot wrote:
| I'm not sure anyone wants to share the work-safe
| marginally funny story they use around new people as the
| chaser to someone discussing how they got clean off drugs
| or recently dealt with a miscarriage or something.
|
| Like will anyone care? Probably not but it's an
| incredibly awkward situation to toss people into when
| they're at _work_.
| Tainnor wrote:
| > how they got clean off drugs
|
| which would probably even work okay because everyone
| loves and applauds a success story or something that
| isn't your fault, but imagine someone sharing their
| _ongoing_ drug addiction. People who think that
| workplaces are "safe" spaces for personal issues should
| try envisioning what the reaction to that would be.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| Now let's switch to close family setting.
|
| It would be OK to discuss drug addiction with your
| parents. It would not be OK to discuss steamy night with
| your wife with them.
|
| It's almost like adult people can understand environment
| and make conscious decisions what is acceptable and what
| is 10% they can bend the rules if they want to switch the
| mood a little.
|
| Honestly it's hilarious how supposedly emotionally mature
| people panic and over-analyse in this thread.
| Tainnor wrote:
| > Almost like adult people can understand environment and
| make conscious decisions what is acceptable [...]
|
| Apparently not because in TFA, the author shared personal
| facts about their divorce and other people shared even
| "deeper" things they'd "never heard in a work setting".
| Quote: "it was awkward".
|
| These aren't things that belong in a workplace context
| (sure, if you're going out for drinks after work maybe
| you can volunteer such things - but not during a
| workplace meeting!).
| watwut wrote:
| To be fair, I did seen people discuss divorce, health and
| even alcoholism in workplace.
| Nashooo wrote:
| It's also not difficult to imagine the opposite? Feels a
| bit like a strawman fallacy.
| baxtr wrote:
| The thing is - and the post actually showcases this - that
| "10% more vulnerable" is super abstract.
|
| What does that even mean? Seems like it triggers people to
| share very deep stuff.
| HPsquared wrote:
| The difference between "0-10%" and "10-11%"
| kyleee wrote:
| People are very weird. 10% more vulnerable to me would be a
| story about "I'm not very good at painting but I like it"
| or "I have 6 toes on my left foot". As opposed to divorce,
| bipolar, etc.
| dymk wrote:
| A manager asking a teammate to do something in front of a
| bunch of other people - even "only if you're comfortable" -
| always puts them in a position where they feel they have to
| do the thing. Come on, this is basic social behavior.
| stego-tech wrote:
| Because bosses exist on a scale. For the sake of the
| argument, let's use American letter grades.
|
| The boss mentioned above would be a "B" boss - good
| intentions, but a forced execution that shifts more of the
| burden to employees. I don't necessarily mind these types,
| but it can be incredibly off-putting for those of us who work
| to live, rather than live to work.
|
| Above that you have the "A" bosses, who invite that level of
| vulnerability by repeatedly displaying their trustworthiness
| to you and the team. I've had a few of these bosses before,
| and they're amazing; sadly, they rarely last long in the face
| of "maximum profit" corporate cultures that demand everyone
| be a replaceable cog in a machine.
|
| Okay, so at what point does that become "forced group
| therapy?" The C-D-F bosses.
|
| C-rank bosses will demand vulnerability because they mistake
| it for honesty or loyalty. Good employees pick up on this and
| will placate them with some useless trivia nugget but
| otherwise have mediocre to bad rapport with said boss.
|
| D-grade bosses are even worse. They'll push and pull and drag
| and yank something suitably vulnerable from everyone, and
| even try to solutionize whatever was shared with the team.
| This is (in my subjective experience) the most common form of
| boss, born of MBA coursework and saddled with buzzword-laden
| articles of "how to be a better leader" from magazines no
| C-Suite would be caught dead reading.
|
| Finally is the F-grade boss, who literally just wants to know
| who is going to need replacing imminently. Don't get me
| wrong, this is something every other grade is silently doing
| as well (hence the "forced group therapy" metaphor), but
| F-grade bosses are bad enough to be overt about it. Got a
| coworker who mentions they're trying to have a baby? They'll
| make sure said coworker never has a positive review again, so
| it's easier to replace them once they're pregnant.
|
| All of this is to say that if YOU are a boss, and an employee
| is being vulnerable with you in an unprompted or non-coerced
| manner, you have won their trust and you better respect that.
| But if you're forcing them to be vulnerable somehow, you're
| actually harming the trust relationship in the long run and
| will make your staff wary of your motives.
|
| Prove they can trust you, and they'll open up on their own.
| jondlm wrote:
| This is great. I absolutely agree that the best leaders
| gently invite and lead with appropriate vulnerability. They
| also don't mind if people say "no" either with words or
| body language.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Read his description a couple more times, while pretending
| that you're a therapist. The "wait, what the ?" stuff can
| give you a better sense of his emotions and mental state, if
| you don't balk at the objective counterfactuals.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| A suggestion like that can some across as not optional. See
| the famous "wear bling" scene in Office Space.
| seanhandley wrote:
| "Pieces of flair"
| jondlm wrote:
| I know I won't be able to convince everyone here, but I
| didn't feel pressured to share anything deeply personal. Some
| people on the team didn't. They weren't punished or looked
| down on. We were a tight-knit team before and after that
| event.
| mywacaday wrote:
| I work in manufacturing and we have a weekly safety slide that
| normally presents a safety based work scenario or learning,
| this week's one was based on how to be safe while out trick or
| treating and one of the guys said he didn't appreciate being
| told in how to behave outside of work hours. I have have to
| admit that his attitude caught me off guard but I understand
| where he is coming from even if the intention comes from a good
| place finding the line between work and home can be a grey
| area. Saying that I don't thinkmi would appreciate being
| ambushed with being asked to provide a personal anecdote
| elygre wrote:
| Lovely. Sounds like a real team player.
| tegling wrote:
| I'm thinking maybe this is rather to present an opportunity for
| the team to put forward their expectations, pain points and
| desires. Being 'vulnerable' for me in a workplace setting means
| perhaps admitting that I really don't appreciate people
| bikeshedding over items I'm submitting for review (rather than
| being actually constructive) or that I feel the git work flow
| don't attribute fairly (hiding my contributions). Maybe others
| feel the same and we could do something about it? And those
| were only on individualistic side. To evolve the team and team
| play I'd think this a good time to bring up that I'm actually
| hating responding to support inquiries and rather have Pete
| doing more of that. And that I think Sue is doing amazing work
| with Figma and I'd really like to learn from her. Wouldn't this
| type of 'vulnerable' make sense in a team?
| nvarsj wrote:
| It sounds like something straight out of Silicon Valley.
|
| I get they are trying to create a sense of psychological safety
| for people, but this is a bit much.
| porter wrote:
| Paraphrasing Seth Godin: do you want your heart surgeon
| greeting you before surgery by authentically telling you about
| the big fight he just had with his wife this morning?
| dzikimarian wrote:
| How often do you meet your heart surgeon for let's say 2-3
| years, a few times a week?
| ruthmarx wrote:
| 10% more vulnerable than normal is open to interpretation. You
| don't need to lie or put anyone on a list, it's just an attempt
| to foster persona relations between a team, the idea being with
| a little empathy and knowledge of each other people might be
| more likely to resolve future differences amicably.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| So now you have a bunch of people that freely overshared and
| that would freely overshare anyhow, you have people that
| invented something like "my cat just died" and everyone is
| now doling out condolences and asking how they feel for weeks
| even though they never even had a cat and they secretly hate
| the boss and the one guy that openly said they don't do stuff
| like that at work and they're now shunned by everyone.
|
| Worked out great, didn't it?
|
| Now the above is probably a bit over top but it shows the
| typical American company culture effect. Going through this
| at work right now since we got bought by Americans and more
| and more fakeness is coming in.
| spencerflem wrote:
| Imo you're being a bit dramatic. I find it nice to work
| with real people, I'm work from home right now and its odd
| to me just how little I know about the people I ostensibly
| share 8 hours a day with.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| See I think there is a huge difference between naturally
| getting to know your coworkers and this group pressure
| sharing exercise.
|
| It's completely fine to get to know your coworkers. But
| let the oversharing ones (the extroverts) congegrate
| together naturally. We had someone like that on the team.
| Was likeable enough but wouldn't stop talking about
| everything in their life. That was their choice tho and I
| am fine to listen but I'm not "sharing back".
|
| And then there were introverts. Some that spoke very very
| little and some that were in the middle. They randomly
| shared some things from time to time in quieter moments
| with less people around and when they felt comfortable.
| Very real people and it was nice to get to know the a bit
| more.
|
| I'm more on the introvert side there and if you group
| pressure me into this sort of thing I will remember that
| for a very very very long time. As in we are never gonna
| be friends. I'm still sour about what an extrovert HR
| person did 4 years ago and I don't speak to them any
| longer. They are also showing from time to time that they
| haven't changed and they'd be the type to use whatever
| came out in an oversharing session against you.
|
| Now tell me to "report them to HR".
| spencerflem wrote:
| I'm on the introvert side too fwiw, I just feel like
| inventing a dead cat is a pretty out there response for
| the situation, which was a gentle push to be a little
| more open than usual for those that feel comfortable.
| Definitely can be taken too far in either direction.
| Without any place for chit chat being set up for it
| though, at least in my company, the 'natural' amount of
| sharing is basically zero, which feels like not enough
| for me.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| It's not a gentle push though. It's setting up a group
| pressure situation that is definitely gonna make
| introverts feel uncomfortable (by a probably extroverted
| person that may genuinely not understand what they're
| even doing in that regard as it'd feel natural for them).
|
| Now I understand that with remote work there may not be
| enough space for chit chat. But there are other ways than
| a forced group pressure situation to set that up.
|
| For example, we decided as a team when Covid WFH started
| to basically use our daily 15 min stand-up for whatever.
| Sometimes we just did stand-up and we're out of there
| after 5 min coz nobody felt like talking. Sometimes it'd
| be a half an hour of just talking about whatever. We also
| have a dedicated time each week blocked off on the
| calendar for it as well and when we have ad hoc working
| session calls we get in some chit chat here or there as
| well. It's not all just business but it can be.
|
| RE cat: see this is the internet and it's an anonymous
| forum. I used that example because our cat actually just
| died a few weeks ago. You thought it was over the top.
| Interesting indeed.
| spencerflem wrote:
| I thought feeling compelled to make up a story like a
| dead cat would be over the top, I'm so sorry that
| actually happened.
|
| I don't quite get the difference between a blocked off
| time for chit chat and the way the manager asked for it
| here but totally, being forced like you have to say
| something you don't want to sucks.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| Feeling compelled to make up a story is part of the whole
| group pressure thing. Either you overshare i.e. share
| something that actually happened but that you would never
| have wanted to share without the group (and boss)
| pressure situation or you make something up (like many
| people in the comments here are saying).
|
| I guess the difference is the same what I mentioned about
| stand-up changing: The team decided to do that. It wasn't
| a manager saying that's how we do things now.
|
| EDIT: I also just realized you gave out condolences. See
| if I was in the situation from the article I might not be
| able to quickly come up with something fake and I'd
| instinctively just mention the cat thing (coz I don't
| want to be the guy that gets shunned). And then the next
| few weeks are gonna be very uncomfortable coz people will
| keep mentioning it.
| Tainnor wrote:
| It's funny how people in this thread are arguing that the 10%
| isn't a big deal when we have TFA describing how they shared
| personal details about their divorce upon hearing this
| prompt, and that other people apparently shared even more
| intimate things.
|
| There are ways of lighten the mood that are decidedly less
| abusive, such as "tell us something funny about yourself" or
| "what is your hobby?". You don't have to like such questions
| either but at least they're not open invitations for trauma
| dumping.
| dabeeeenster wrote:
| If you did this in the UK you can be guaranteed a meeting with
| HR. Absolutely mind blowing.
| kyleee wrote:
| A meeting with HR too, talk about adding insult to injury
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| We had a team building exercise, that I wasn't able to attend.
| The person running it decided that a great ice-breaker would be
| for everyone to name their greatest fear.
|
| I'm a parent. You can probably pretty easily infer what my
| greatest fear is.
|
| Would I share that? Fuck no! Not only am I not particularly
| willing to get that intimate with a bunch of strangers, I also
| don't want to be a huge fucking downer. What I _do_ want is to
| recognize that while you _can_ speed-run friendship & bonding
| to some degree, it's fucking inappropriate to try to do so at
| work. It's _work_. I 'll make friends if I make friends, but
| otherwise I'm out at 5, physically, mentally and emotionally.
| dnissley wrote:
| Is it something bad happening to your kids? That seems
| perfectly appropriate to share
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I don't fucking want to think about that during a fucking
| team building exercise. And I don't think anyone else wants
| to hear that, either.
| chinathrow wrote:
| Neither would I. I can only think of this question having
| any place in such a situation if you suffix it by "at
| work" and exclude the obvious things such as getting
| fired or the company going bust.
| christophilus wrote:
| Not gonna lie. When these sorts of situations have arisen in
| the past, I find it really tempting to troll. These prompts are
| such BS that they just invite a BS response.
|
| "Whoo. OK. I've never talked about this, but here goes. When I
| was 12 I used a Hello Kitty doll to kill a man. Wow. Feels
| great to finally get that off my chest."
| Tainnor wrote:
| One time at a corporate retreat, we had to fill out each
| others' "friend books" (I'm not making this up). One question
| was about our personal motto. I wrote down "Hell is other
| people" - I think some people took the hint.
| namaria wrote:
| Putting aside the trite "we're cool here" corporate routine, it
| sounds to me like a hack of a manager gave someone the opening
| to trauma dump on their co-workers and some by-standers got
| treated to some drive by group theory. Awful all around.
| sbochins wrote:
| Yea, this was really disturbing. Your work and manager already
| have a lot of power over you. It seems really nefarious to ask
| employees to bring in vulnerabilities about themselves from
| outside of work. I don't buy the team building nonsense, which
| will probably used as the "explanation" here.
| rdtsc wrote:
| Absolutely. This has only downsides for employees and only
| upsides for employers. Don't fall for this!
| scruple wrote:
| Yeah, I would just instinctively make something up. Maybe
| everyone else does that, too, how would any of us know?
|
| I really don't like this trend of employers trying to act like
| we're all friends or one big happy family. It only serves to
| blur the very real boundaries of power in favor of the
| employer. Engaging with it in earnest feels like self-
| exploitation to me.
| superultra wrote:
| I am the kind of guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. I grew
| up in a familialy dishonest context so being open and
| transparent has been my default.
|
| That attitude is a liability at work and I've learned the hard
| way.
|
| We've all heard the phrase don't shit where you eat. In modern
| workplace cadence that means don't use your workplace as your
| source of therapy or friends or certainly family.
|
| The way we present yourselves at work has to intrinsically be a
| performance because that's how money works.
|
| Find another place to express emotions and thoughts and find
| friends. That place should not be the workplace.
| jondlm wrote:
| Sorry to hear you've been burned by sharing.
| swampdonkey64 wrote:
| ^ This. This x 100.
|
| You choose your friends because you have shared interests and
| you make each other feel good. You have family because they
| brought you into the world and you have shared qualities and
| bonds. You chose your job because it pays you. You do it for
| the ducats. Don't get it twisted.
| 946789987649 wrote:
| I had a manager do something like this but in a slightly better
| way. Each week we took it in turns doing our "life story". Some
| did it funny, some did it really personal and serious, some
| more of a CV, and some a mix of them all. You could really
| decide how you wanted to do it, and people got to know you a
| bit better.
| thdhhghgbhy wrote:
| I'd go further, the situation as described was gross. A kind of
| peer pressure invasion of privacy for all employees involved.
| Aurornis wrote:
| In recent years I had a manager who read a lot of pop-
| psychology and self-help books. His 1:1s turned into pseudo
| therapy sessions where he tried to assume the role of
| therapist. He and I did not get along because I politely
| changed the subject back to work and the office every time he
| tried to get me to "open up" about my childhood, my home life,
| my fears and anxieties, and other topics.
|
| I thought he was a weird outlier, but I joined an invite-only
| Slack for management a while ago where I'd estimate 1/4 of the
| topics in the #1-on-1s channel are from managers trying to
| psychoanalyze their team or act as therapists. The good news is
| that the Slack is very good about correcting these people about
| their role and what is appropriate for work. The bad news is
| that these new managers are getting the idea from somewhere
| that they need to be some type of therapist and patriarch of
| the team. It feels like a weird iteration of new-age management
| philosophies that breed in B-list business books and social
| media like LinkedIn.
| jondlm wrote:
| That's rough. Sorry to hear you were pushed.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| I'm a serious work focused person too and my manager is a
| little on the mushy side. Exasperating for me, but the
| younger talent on the team eats it up so it works for him in
| that respect. I'm still not sure what percentage of it is an
| act.
| Nav_Panel wrote:
| This is wild to me. As someone who's done some eng management
| and has also read a lot of psychoanalytic theory, the only
| things I would actively ask my reports to "open up" about
| emotionally are what they like and dislike about tasks and
| processes, so I can better distribute work that satisfies
| them and remove frictions. That said if they want to tell me
| more, I'm happy to listen.
|
| Otoh when dealing with peers at director or C level, things
| tend to get significantly more psychological, likely because
| their facility of judgment, which is ultimately psychological
| and moral, is functioning with far higher leverage due to
| their organizational authority.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I think the better approach would be for the manager to share
| something themselves, to demonstrate that a bit of
| vulnerability is okay, but not even ask if anyone else wants to
| say anything and certainly not make people feel they should. In
| other words lead by example so that if someone feels like they
| want to open up they can and their manager will be supportive.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| 10% more vulnerable? Ok, I'll make up a story about how some
| weekends I keep working because I love this job and team so
| danged much!
|
| A team isn't a family. A company isn't a family.
| neilv wrote:
| > _Of course I wouldn 't say all that to the manager, but 'I'll
| put him on the list of people I should be careful about,_
|
| Both reasonable.
|
| > _and fake some confessions._
|
| Could you find some other way to handle it, without lying?
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| When these things come up I just share work vulnerabilities
| like, "Yeah, that project I pushed for was a terrible idea in
| hindsight." Or "I'm really struggling with this project because
| I don't know if anyone cares about it".
|
| That way I tick the participation box without making it
| therapy.
| SergeAx wrote:
| > If you're comfortable, I'd like us to try and be 10% more
| vulnerable
|
| So it seems to me that it was voluntary, right? You could be
| okay sharing nothing, author felt better going proposed path.
| NotAnOtter wrote:
| I saw the multipage wall of text and backed out.
|
| If there is garbage in there this hot I might just give it a
| read. What a fucking weirdo. Quit without a job likely because
| he was getting so much negative feedback and saw the PIP on its
| way
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >motivated more by my work being MEANINGFUL
|
| I quit trying to find meaning in my work long time ago. And work
| never depresses me. I work to have food on the table for me and
| my family. That is enough of a motivation.
|
| If I want to do something meaningful, I either work on a personal
| project or contribute to one, outside work.
| whstl wrote:
| That's how it should be.
|
| It is too dangerous to attach meaning to a place that can fire
| you, or push you into burnout.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I think the author had unrealistic expectations from working at a
| large company.
|
| He expected doing something meaningful that will change the
| world. He expected to be applauded like a hero for his efforts.
|
| But things don't work like that.
|
| If you work your ass out, don't expect more than a pat on the
| back. Managers won't care about your efforts, your mental state
| or your sleepless nights. They care about looking good in front
| of their superiors.
|
| So it's better to do just that is expected for you, enough to get
| a good evaluation.
|
| If you come out with a brilliant idea that might help the company
| a lot don't just do it. Find some allies in the higher hierarchy,
| explain to them what is their advantage, do a POC or MVP, then
| let the top management know in a public meeting. That way you get
| a lot of credits and applause for doing great things for the
| company and fighting the good fight.
| lmm wrote:
| The flip side of that is that if companies make "passion" a
| hiring criterion, they'll end up hiring people who care about
| making a difference, which may serve them poorly if the
| position doesn't actually fit that.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Of course not. They got 4 years of fantastic work out of the
| guy before he burned out. That serves them just fine. The
| only requirement is that you have no morals.
| stitched2gethr wrote:
| I don't see it that way. He wanted to work there. They paid
| him for his time and from his account all of the passion
| was his own. I'm not speaking against those who just want
| to do what's required, but is it really wrong to hire
| someone who is passionate about the work?
| Aeolun wrote:
| Sorta, yeah. Working for a largeish enterprise I actively
| select against too much passion. Those people will come
| in, go WTF constantly for about half a year, spend
| another half year doing less and less, before eventually
| leaving for greener pastures.
|
| I mean, I get them, as I went through the same thing.
| varispeed wrote:
| > a brilliant idea that might help the company a lot don't just
| do it.
|
| Never do it. It will never end up benefitting you, even if you
| find "allies" - who might even stab you in the back and take
| credit for the idea and then let you go once they get a
| promotion.
|
| If you have a brilliant idea, keep it to yourself, try to think
| of a way it could be used outside of the company and if it is
| strong enough start your own business based on the idea.
| Otherwise forget it.
|
| Never do more than you are asked to do.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I mean, brilliant ideas can still be fun to work on. Who
| cares if you don't get appropriately rewarded for saving the
| company $50k/month, it was time well spent.
|
| As opposed to working on that pointless crud thing your boss
| likes.
| whstl wrote:
| I'd say work on brilliant ideas if they're good for your
| resume.
|
| Yeah, I know this annoys the senior devs, but after 20
| years on this grind I totally get why people do it.
| margalabargala wrote:
| I agree with you. But not everyone will. Some people have
| jobs to pay for their lives outside of work, and that's it.
| And that's fine.
|
| I take the stance of, the job I do for 8 hours 5 days a
| week might as well be something I actually _enjoy_ doing
| above and beyond the financial incentive. Working on
| something I think is really neat is enjoyable, and I 'm
| lucky to work in an industry doing things not so far from
| what I would spend my time doing anyway if I were retired.
| varispeed wrote:
| > Who cares if you don't get appropriately rewarded for
| saving the company $50k/month, it was time well spent.
|
| If you are that great, it is much better to contribute to
| Open Source projects than to someone's already fat pockets.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I'm not sure how you see that happening unless your
| company allows it?
| DeathArrow wrote:
| There might be ideas that work only in that particular
| context and you can't implement on your own outside of that.
| Otherwise, I agree with you.
|
| >Never do it. It will never end up benefitting you, even if
| you find "allies" - who might even stab you in the back and
| take credit for the idea and then let you go once they get a
| promotion.
|
| That's why I said to get allies from the higher ups. Not your
| boss or your peers. Preferably business people. And you don't
| need to give them all the details. Just let them know if
| would make them look good, have their approval and use them
| as a shield.
| hansvm wrote:
| It's not "more" work; it's "different" work. I quite enjoy
| low-level optimizations, and all I have to do to work on that
| all day instead of coordination, meetings, and drudgery is
| convince people a few levels up the chain that the cost
| savings are huge and that the extra speed enables cool new
| features.
|
| It's corporate America, so I'm going to be unceremoniously
| fired eventually anyway, but in the meantime I might as well
| enjoy myself, impress my coworkers, snag a promotion or two,
| and get a "made a cool new thing increasing profits $XX
| million/yr" line item on my resume.
|
| > start your own business
|
| Probably eventually, but starting a business is very
| different from being at a place big enough that I can profit
| my salary many times over just from faster code. If I start
| one, I'll write fast code there too, but "fast" isn't a
| business idea by itself, and I don't see anything wrong with
| doing a good job for whoever happens to be writing my
| paycheck.
| varispeed wrote:
| > the cost savings are huge and that the extra speed
| enables cool new features.
|
| Been there. The savings were never passed down, but you
| could always enjoy photos of boss's new sports car or their
| month's trip to Borneo to "recharge" and think of new
| challenges. Ah sorry! I got an iPod once as a thank you.
|
| > "made a cool new thing increasing profits $XX million/yr"
|
| That may backfire. Nobody likes a new kid on the block that
| has tricks up his sleeve that could jeopardise someone
| senior's career.
| hansvm wrote:
| > Savings were never passed down
|
| Sure, that's the game. I get an extra bonus or raise or
| something with promotions, and more when I switch jobs,
| but nearly all the profit goes elsewhere. If you want to
| leave the upper-middle class you'll need to set out on
| your own eventually.
|
| If you don't have a solid plan and life circumstances for
| building your own business yet though, why would you not
| do things the business likes, especially when it means
| your day-to-day is more palettable, it doesn't actually
| require any more work, and it has some moderate career
| impacts in case you never set out on your own?
|
| > this may backfire
|
| That's the same sort of logic that leads people to have
| asphalt roofs instead of white roofs in southern
| climates. You do, absolutely, alienate a significant
| fraction of buyers (employers). You command a premium at
| every place that's left though because they want you
| _because_ of the things that make you different. So long
| as you don't shrink the pool too much, each individual
| job is more lucrative.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| This has not been my experience. I've seen people rewarded
| for 'brilliant ideas' (though really more like brilliant
| execution, let's be honest, ideas are worthless in their
| own). Now could they have more reward starting their own
| company? Perhaps. But it's certainly more risky. In a regular
| job if your idea doesn't pan out you haven't lost much, maybe
| you get a slightly smaller bonus that year or something.
| ta_1138 wrote:
| This story of his would have fir just fine in a much smaller
| Stripe, back when you could actually know everyone, and Patrick
| interviewed every programmer. A time where making a difference
| wasn't all that hard, as everyone fit in one cafeteria in the
| Mission.
|
| It was always a pretty competitive place, with a lot of smart
| people working a lot of hours, and a culture of attention to
| detail that left many people with impostor syndrome. There were
| pretty good expectations of being nice to each other: No
| infrastructure team giving your request the cold shoulder,
| because that was just not OK. So people working really hard and
| burning out to try to meet every growing expectations was
| common.
|
| The post also had the other weakness of the culture: A lot of
| management changes, along with a culture of performance among
| managers that would be fit for Amazon. So a manager might
| change teams, and the person that used to get exceed
| expectations would end up with a PIP with the next manager,
| often by surprise. You can imagine what it does to morale to
| tell someone how they are the most helpful person they've
| worked with, and then see them gone two weeks later. It was a
| great place to work in many ways, but the negative parts took
| their toll.
|
| So, if anything, the story showed me that even though it's been
| many years, a lot of Stripe is still recognizable.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| My big company strategy is to troll internal chats/forums for
| things that seem like interesting problems. Do something to fix
| them or make them suck a little less.
|
| Always be building solid, interesting things and make sure that
| if someone, for some reason finds them, that they would say
| "wow, this is cool, who made this?"
|
| Then I casually share links to those things in the right
| context. If I get a 10% hit rate then I'm happy.
|
| Do this all day every day between assigned projects 9-5 and
| you'd be amazed at the network you can build outside your own
| team. Keeps the options open for lateral movement.
| underdeserver wrote:
| I tried that for a while. Makes some of your peers happier,
| but almost never gets you any credit.
|
| I'm not smart or quick enough to consistently do that and my
| job without it taking a toll, so it ends up not being worth
| it most of the time.
| kaiwenwang wrote:
| https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
| deeplogiccom wrote:
| I think it might help to focus on staying grounded and regulating
| your emotions, especially when it comes to thinking about Patrick
| and his success. While it's natural to admire someone who has
| built an impressive company and achieved significant financial
| success, remember that people are often respected for being
| authentic and secure in who they are, rather than for how much
| they admire others.
|
| I think a good approach would be to consider asking for
| adjustments to your work hours or talking with your team lead
| about creating a plan to make your work environment feel more
| manageable. It might also be helpful to discuss with a therapist
| why Patrick's success affects you so strongly. Understanding the
| root of this could help you focus more on your own growth and
| well-being.
|
| The challenges you experienced at Stripe aren't unique to that
| company. These same lessons are likely to come up in future roles
| if they're left unaddressed. You have the choice to face these
| issues now or later, but life has a way of bringing them back
| until they're fully understood and resolved. Taking proactive
| steps now can set you up for a healthier, more resilient future
| in your career and beyond.
| pammf wrote:
| Ways I found that helped me the most dealing with this kind of
| situation:
|
| - Refine your definition of what's "meaningful": anything that
| helps you, your colleagues, helps you to learn a new thing or
| simply allows you to create something beautiful can be
| meaningful; there's a lot of meaning in giving a meal to someone
| starving, even though you're not solving any big societal issue
| or being applauded by many for that single act.
|
| - Don't take people like the OP's first manager too personally:
| with time you realize they're generally not evil or terrible
| human beings, they're just in a different mission. Usually they
| are also as lost as we are, trying to find meaning and
| recognition. Just lower the importance you give to them (if
| you're really incompatible with their personalities) and focus on
| your work. If even then it becomes toxic, then move.
|
| - Most importantly: reshape your relationship with work. Who you
| are and what you do are not necessarily the same thing. I don't
| like the advice of "slacking and collecting your pay check" (been
| there, you also feel shit after a while), but I think that going
| a bit to that direction helps to find balance.
| skwee357 wrote:
| Corporate environments tend to destroy the human souls. More so
| with "dream companies".
|
| Sure, job is a big part of our life, but it's better to leave as
| "just job", and not focus on it too much.
|
| Wishing the best to the author!
| sourcepluck wrote:
| > The tech I build protects well-being and promotes human
| flourishing. Tech should never exploit weaknesses no matter how
| well intentioned.
|
| That's from the "values" section of the website under the "Tech
| as a tool" subsection. How does working for Stripe fit with this
| value?
|
| As a mere user of "tech", and a concerned observer of what I
| perceive to be its negative effects on society around me the last
| 5-10 years, it feels impossible to deny that the main drivers of
| the tech space haven't been "protecting well-being" and
| "promoting human flourishing", rather the opposite, and often
| rather brutally.
|
| The article leaves the question unanswered of what actually led
| to the depression, and I'm left wondering if the author explored
| that question specifically. Perhaps Stripe aren't building
| technology that promotes human flourishing, and perhaps the
| author's core values were clashing with the reality of a modern
| tech company.
| sourcepluck wrote:
| Also, this article prompted me to use Ngram for the first time,
| to compare "camaraderie" and "comradery", which I was amazed and
| appalled by. The resulting diagram really helped soothe me, so
| here it is:
|
| https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=camaraderie%2C...
| davedx wrote:
| Probably the "English is a dual language with lots of words
| that mean the same thing because half are from French and the
| other half are Anglo Saxon" thing again. There are loads of
| words like this, there was an article about it on HN the other
| week
| sourcepluck wrote:
| No, not whatsoever. "Camarade" is the French word they both
| stem from, and the spelling "comradery" is the (North)
| American variant which some sources describe as an error and
| some not.
|
| It's the U.S. vs England spelling thing again, except this
| time the U.S. spelling doesn't seem to be catching on, for
| some reason.
|
| To get a feel for the whole thing in Ngram I looked at
| "labor,labour", "color,colour" and "organize,organise" and
| for each one the U.S. spelling was winning by a little or by
| loads, but "camaraderie" heavily dominates "comradery" in
| terms of usage. So, a little bit mysterious, maybe.
|
| [Ngram is a great tool].
| Tade0 wrote:
| I for one could not help but read it in my head with a
| thick Slavic accent. All the more interesting that I am
| Slavic already.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Thanks for this writeup. I hope the author recovers soon.
|
| Some of the situations feel familiar to my experience in other
| companies, so here's some advice to younger folks, which took me
| some time to grasp:
|
| - Communication with the manager is critical. Better to
| overcommunicate than undercommunicate. It's a natural tendency
| for curious folks to do "side quests" and while you were supposed
| to work on X, you noticed that you can improve Y which _in your
| opinion_ is more important. At the very least, drop your manager
| a Slack message like "hey, I was supposed to work on X but I
| have an idea about Y which can bring more benefit, I will take N
| hours/days to dig into that if that's ok with you" and see what's
| their response (also make sure to time constrain it to avoid
| getting sidetracked for too long). I was definitely burned by
| this in prev job: I shipped some nice things but I was supposed
| to work on something else which I didn't do, and each time my
| manager mentioned this (i.e. N months later in performance
| evaluation), I knew it was correct for him to point it out, but
| it made me feel bad.
|
| - In bigtech the work happens in quarters. If you're unhappy
| about things you work on currently, take some time to prepare the
| work items you do want to work on, and seed your manager's mind
| before next quarter planning about things you DO want to work on,
| why, how is the impact and so on.
|
| - When feeling overwhelmed with too many things on your plate,
| talk to your manager to dispatch some responsibilities to other
| team members. Don't be the messiah who needs to fix everything by
| yourself silently and burn out.
|
| - For candidates: When doing interviews, you absolutely should do
| everything to streamline things and avoid distractions. Most
| likely use JS or Python for coding. Probably avoid TS, definitely
| avoid C++. It's too easy to get lost fighting the compiler or
| "reinventing the world" with languages like C/C++. You won't get
| extra points for going uphill, but you will get minus points for
| not finishing.
| wkjagt wrote:
| There's a lot of comments on the "10% more vulnerable" part of
| the post in here that amount to "I just owe the company work
| hours, and they owe me money", and a strong aversion to showing
| anything resembling human connection going slightly further than
| "how are you", "fine". One commented even called the question by
| the manager "abuse", and suggested the manager should be fired.
|
| But if on most days we're spending most of our time with these
| people, what do we gain from automatically disqualifying them
| from human connection just because they work at the same place as
| us?
|
| And let's not pretend that the manager in this story forced
| anyone to do anything.
| yunohn wrote:
| I've heard of cases where not sharing vulnerability in such a
| setting led to others (who did) being offended and subsequent
| othering. While arguing the manager needs to be fired is a bit
| too far, you do need to consider the power differential and how
| it forces conformance from everyone.
| kyleee wrote:
| Yes, if someone shares they were abused as a child, it
| becomes much more fraught to tell everyone you messed up two
| poached eggs while making brunch last weekend and you are not
| quite the chef you hope to be.
|
| That's why you have to volunteer to go first, because then
| you have plausible deniability about the expected level of
| vulnerability.
| molochai wrote:
| I have personal experience with a manager who acted similarly
| intrusively, seeming to want to blur lines between professional
| and personal. They later critiqued my (supposed) emotional
| state and motivations in a professional review. "Force" may not
| be accurate as in strapping me into the group until I talk,
| "abuse" may not be accurate as in an active misuse of power --
| but there are negative consequences for non-participation.
|
| I'm not the least bit opposed to connecting with peers. I've
| extracted two cherished friends of 10+ years from prior jobs. I
| just require it to occur organically and with peers, separate
| from groups led by the person signing my paychecks and writing
| my annual reviews.
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| Unpopular opinion, but this is the problem with work from home.
|
| Reduces people to output. And if that output can be done
| cheaper by someone in another country or automated away, why
| even hesitate to change out the things that generate the output
| anymore than a lightbulb?
| kelnos wrote:
| As much as I am a huge WFH proponent, I do agree that forming
| social bonds with coworkers is harder in that environment. An
| unsurprising consequence of that is managers having less
| personal attachment to individual employees.
|
| On the other hand, I do know of a few companies that manage
| to team members socially engaged, mostly in ways that don't
| feel like forced "mandatory fun time". It's not easy, and
| it's a cultural value that needs to permeate everything. But
| it can be done.
| sensanaty wrote:
| There's a power differential when management _suggests_ you do
| something. Even if they genuinely, 100% for real would not care
| if you didn 't share, the power balance is still at play there,
| which makes it dicey regardless of anything else. I actually
| like my manager, he's a chill guy and I've had some deep talks
| with him a few times (after work hours!), but if he pulled a
| stunt like this during work hours I'd 100% tell him that it's a
| completely inappropriate thing to do.
|
| _I_ know that he doesn 't mean ill or harm by it, but how is
| the new hire who's anxious to be starting the job supposed to
| react to it? How can you expect them to say no without feeling
| like "not being a team player" or whatever other stupid cliche
| HR types like to use?
|
| > But if on most days we're spending most of our time with
| these people, what do we gain from automatically disqualifying
| them from human connection just because they work at the same
| place as us?
|
| Some people just don't care to make people from work anything
| more than an acquaintance. They have their own social lives
| which they invest infinitely more energy into than their work
| lives, and that's completely fine. I personally can't remember
| the last time I've spoken to any of my ex-colleagues after they
| or I left the job, I definitely wouldn't call any of them
| friends. I still hung out with them at the bar on Friday
| evenings after a tough sprint, we had a good working
| relationship, we just weren't friends. I have actual friends
| who I'd rather spend the time with for that.
| progbits wrote:
| > Some people just don't care to make people from work
| anything more than an acquaintance.
|
| I've also been in a situation where I tried but realized
| behind the work persona they were assholes I would never be
| friends with.
|
| I've considered quiting at that point but decided to just not
| socialize with them. Work interactions are fine.
|
| It's a bit sad because in previous job I got along really
| well with most coworkers but such is life. I have enough
| friends and if it ever becomes a problem at work I'll just
| leave.
| jarjoura wrote:
| The goal with any of these icebreakers is to encourage the
| team to be humble and approach work related problems in a
| thoughtful manner.
|
| It's easy for someone to assume you are asked to open up
| about non-work related stories, but it's never the intention.
| For example, talking about how your Aunt passing away being
| the reason you got into software engineering, is not really
| going to help the team in any meaningful way.
|
| However, it is quite valuable to share a story about how a
| coworker left you a huge unfinished project before abruptly
| going on vacation, and how you struggled to pick up the
| slack. You can use that story about the pain and frustration
| you felt and how you learned the value of having your work in
| a proper hand-off state when you eventually plan to take
| extended time away.
|
| Don't ever feel like you need to talk about your hobbies, or
| family, or even your love of cats or dogs. In time you will
| build your work friends and connect with people who share
| some your interests, but it will never be forced, and a few
| of them may become lifelong friends.
| kelnos wrote:
| That's fair, but that's not how the author presented this
| request from their manager. Judging from the stories
| shared, people seemed to believe that they were being asked
| to share stories from their personal lives.
|
| It doesn't really matter what the manager intended; if they
| were primarily looking for vulnerable professional moments,
| they should have said so. And if they were indeed looking
| for personal stories, that's inappropriate.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| It is abuse and the manager forced everyone to respond either
| by participating or by refusing to participate or by lying or
| by exposing that they actually have literally nothing
| interesting to say.
|
| If you don't get that, then you are probably out their making
| life 5% hell for half the people around you, in blissful
| ignorance thanks to the effort _they_ all put in to catering to
| your inconsiderate interactions.
| wkjagt wrote:
| > making life 5% hell
|
| Not even sure what this means
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| checks out
| kelnos wrote:
| Being vulnerable can be great and helpful when forming personal
| relationships. A manager asking their direct reports to be
| (personally) vulnerable in a professional setting, in front of
| a group, is inappropriate.
|
| While I agree that it wasn't forced (and I know that I would
| personally have no problem sticking to whatever level of
| sharing I was comfortable with), I bet you that at least one
| person on that team felt uncomfortable with it, but also felt
| like they could be penalized in some way (even just socially)
| if they didn't share. That's not ok.
|
| If you can't forge bonds with your teammates without your boss
| asking people to share vulnerable moments during a team
| meeting, there are deeper problems that this sort of exercise
| is not going to address.
|
| From my most recent job, I have quite a few strong friendships
| that we've maintained over the years, even though we've all
| left that company years ago. But most (if not all) of my so-
| called friendships with coworkers at other jobs faded quickly
| after one of us left the company. That's pretty normal, and
| there's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong
| with having a vibrant social life outside of your colleagues,
| and not really being interested in those colleagues beyond
| acquaintance level.
| nvarsj wrote:
| A lot of this post reminds me of my own experience in big tech.
|
| I think it's really brutal to those inclined to the highly
| sensitive person archetype (overly sensitive to external
| stimuli). Every little thing you do is analysed and the perf
| process is intense.
|
| It can also be illogical - despite attempts to not be - as
| subjectivity in the perf process is almost unavoidable. Just take
| this author, who had a successful project, but got below
| expectations simply because their manager or a senior lead got a
| bad impression from probably a handful of interactions with them.
|
| At these companies you _have_ to learn to not get emotionally or
| mentally invested in this process, or it can wreck you. Therapy
| can help a lot here.
| kopirgan wrote:
| Gave up about 30% of the way..
| mndgs wrote:
| Sorry for a probably unpopular opinion here, and let me
| generalize a bit: Gen Z all the way... (Saying this makes me feel
| a bit old, I guess I'm certainly am than the author).
|
| On a serious note, in my book there are hints of perfectionism
| right from the start of the story (fonts dimming, wait 30 sec to
| join the meeting..). And too much fragility in personal
| attidudes. S/he is probably a relatively young idealistic person,
| early in the career. Such people often don't last long, if they
| can't change inside and take manager's or corporate shit. One
| needs at least some "fuck it" attitude to preserve one's dignity.
| Your performance review does not and cannot define you as a
| person. Else you're likely to end up disappointed and/or
| emotionally exhausted. And that's what I see here.
| eddd-ddde wrote:
| Everything in life needs a healthy amount of "fuck it"
| attitude.
|
| The second I learnt this and started living by it my happiness
| shot up and my anxiety went down.
|
| Who cares if you mess up, you have to stop living by your ideas
| of other people's ideas of you.
| _proofs wrote:
| i feel similarly and have had an adjacent experience with
| anxiety. the more i got to know myself, and the more i've
| accepted myself over the years, the more i've found myself
| self-advocating and validating my own existence (to myself)
| -- i do not need to prove or justify it to others, and i have
| been working on keeping this mantra alive.
|
| a large part of this experience has been overcoming things by
| applying a healthy dose of, "fuck it -- this is for me." [1]
|
| [1] obviously one can suggest there is an element of hedonism
| or selfishness inherent in the attitude, but i think we can
| appreciate framing it in the context of not using this
| attitude or mantra to justify being self-destructive, or
| harmful -- that is not the point. it's more about applying it
| in a way, that combats the mundane insecurities i've faced
| and experienced in a range of extremes, which otherwise get
| in the way of personal growth.
| nunez wrote:
| I agree, but many people in this world are raised by parents
| for whom "fuck it" is not an option. Escaping that kind of
| environment is very difficult.
| cloverich wrote:
| Its funny coming from the other side, where fuck it is all
| you know. Of course balance is the answer and change is
| hard. If i ever can id love to incorporate this into my
| hiring criteria as a kind of diversity, because as a fuck
| it person i find i pair quite well with those who cant do
| that; and likewise working at jobs with too many of either
| type the flaws (and mono culture) become so significant its
| hard to stomach.
| nunez wrote:
| Put yourself in their shoes.
|
| They idolized a company that is known for top-shelf engineering
| talent and, more importantly, brutally hard interviews...and
| they just got an opportunity to interview with them.
|
| You have no idea what the interviewee will "no hire" them over,
| so you assume they want perfection because obviously. You're
| deathly afraid of making any mistakes because not getting the
| job you've been dreaming about for years is not an option, so
| spiraling straight into the ground after your first minor oops
| makes total sense.
|
| Once you've gotten the dream job, you now have to work even
| harder to keep it because, shit, have you seen the engineering
| talent in this place? Getting a "failing" perf review from your
| management sends this anxiety into overdrive, so you work
| harder to prove your worth.
|
| Some people barely last under these conditions. Others will
| gladly torch everything and everyone in their life to succeed,
| whatever that means.
| waitasec wrote:
| No need to generalize, or assume.
|
| > I'd already had a successful career as a software engineer
| for the better part of a decade.
|
| OP's resume suggests they've been a professional engineer for
| over a decade.
|
| I agree with your points about perfectionism and idealism, but
| they are not isolated to Gen Z.
| phyrex wrote:
| "Better part of a decade" means "more than half a decade", so
| definitely not a decade yet
| schmichael wrote:
| The author appears to be solidly millenial from their resume.
|
| As an Elder Millennial myself I hope HN and our industry is
| free of ageism against young and old. Comments like yours don't
| help.
| kelnos wrote:
| I wouldn't call that ageism; attitudes change over time, and
| people early in their career haven't yet learned "how the
| game is played" so to speak. They will have some emotional
| attitudes about work that don't always align with reality,
| which in some cases can be harmful for their mental health
| and career progression.
|
| This is just a consequence of being inexperienced, and in
| this case it correlates closely with age.
|
| I do agree that bucketing people by "generation" isn't
| helpful. Just saying "it seems like this person is early in
| their career" is sufficient, and is the actual relevant bit.
| kelnos wrote:
| The author mentions they have nearly 10 years of experience in
| the field, so assuming they went to college and got their first
| programming job soon thereafter, that puts them around 30-32,
| so fairly solidly millennial, if maybe on the younger side of
| it. Not that this matters; I'm always dubious of
| generalizations based on made up things like "generations".
|
| I definitely got people-pleasing vibes, and I agree the whole
| "making my screen look neat and tidy" and "engineering my
| arrival time to the meeting" bits were too much. If I had an
| interviewer who cared about or was impressed by those
| "metrics", I would consider that pretty shallow.
|
| Based on that first performance review they got, my feeling is
| they had a bad manager. I agree with the manager that
| communication is a crucially important part of work, but you
| don't give someone a low rating when they completed an
| otherwise wildly successful project. That's just cruel and
| demoralizing. You can attack the communication problem without
| demotivating your employee and possibly hurting their career
| progression.
|
| Whenever a poor performance review is a surprise to the
| employee, that alone is a management failure. Don't wait until
| review time to discuss problems; bring them up immediately and
| try to address them. Maybe by the time the review comes up, the
| problem will be gone. And if it's not, the employee won't be
| surprised by the reasons behind a less-than-ideal review.
| 101008 wrote:
| Not sure if this helps someone, but I joined a new German company
| a few months ago, the type of company that has a great culture
| and everyone wants to work for (when I announced it on Linkedin
| my stats increased and I received a lot of invitations).
|
| Anyway, on-boarding was awful and codebase is terrible. For the
| first four months I have been struggling, suferring, getting
| frustrated, and everything impacting my life outside work
| (weekends, sleeping, etc)
|
| Then I realized. This is just a job. What is the worst it could
| happen? Getting fired and these people thinking I'm an idiot? I
| can live with that. I won't probably meet them again (perks of
| remote) and I could find another job down the line. And that
| helped me.
|
| What you do at work and how are you seen at work, as long as you
| are responsible, shouldn't be that important. Leave it at work
| and try to enjoy your life. Don't carry it with you, especially
| when it is a position where you don't have much control.
| edlebert wrote:
| I quit Stripe after only six months because the pace, stress, and
| anxiety were not worth the paycheck.
| leoqa wrote:
| Stripe is a tough place at all levels, I saw more staff
| engineers get fired there than anywhere else.
|
| Had some bad managers and then some good ones. Did my time and
| got out.
| onetokeoverthe wrote:
| No wonder I cannot find an easy to use payment processor.
| snapcaster wrote:
| in my experience stripe's software is great, and their
| documentation is top notch. What is your problem with the
| product?
| nine_zeros wrote:
| I think this post highlights one of the core reasons why tech
| jobs suck so much and why burnout is so common among such smart
| people.
|
| It is because a lot of these jobs are oriented towards
| PERFORMANCE REVIEWS that are based on BS unrelated to the actual
| work - such as feelings of others or sometimes # of commits.
|
| Big tech management has departed from being leaders to being
| raters and rankers of things they are unqualified to rate and
| rank. They have organizational authority which they should be
| using to make good choices for customers, employees and projects.
| But the management only uses it for reviews.
|
| Of course, this is toxic. No one wants to be led by people who
| don't care more than them and don't contribute in helping the
| work. Why wouldn't someone get burned out in such an environment?
| segmondy wrote:
| Nah, I think OP has reached his idea of pinnacle. When you set
| out to do a thing, and achieve that thing, it's all downhill
| unless you set out for more challenging goals or switch up.
| People often get depressed, after getting their dream job,
| getting promotions, having a successful business exit. It's
| normal. When you realize this is normal, it makes it easier to
| embrace it and figure the next step forward. It's the right
| balance of the struggle that keeps us feeling alive and on the
| edge. Too much and you become hopelessly depressed, no struggle
| and you feel empty and depressed too.
| dionian wrote:
| I identified with this story quite a bit. I had a similar
| experience at a cut-throat big name tech company. It's extremely
| political and the business has to run extremely sharp to succeed.
| Hence the hightened politics and management involvement at that
| level. You did a great job with the writing! It was fun to read,
| and interesting to hear the story. Best of luck in the future
| lquist wrote:
| _My email admired by a billionaire? Bliss._
|
| Hoping this is satire
| angarg12 wrote:
| This is what happens when you make your work most of your
| identity.
|
| At the end of the day work won't love you back. Managers will
| come and go. Projects will start and end. Colleagues will join
| and leave.
|
| For most of us work is an important part of our lives, after all
| we spend a big chunk of our life there. But try to find meaning
| outside work.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"She shared with me some concerns about my communication and
| project management. She, and apparently others she gathered
| feedback from, felt like I hadn't done a good enough job pulling
| other engineers into the project."
|
| You are software developer, not a manager. It is her job to worry
| about things like that.
|
| >"for this meeting I'd like us to try and introduce ourselves a
| little differently. If you're comfortable, I'd like us to try and
| be 10% more vulnerable than we normally would in a work setting"
|
| What a fucking moron. Most likely he was fishing for weak spots
| to be exploited. I do not get how one can fall for this type of
| crap.
|
| Anyways this whole thing reminds me why I've never wanted to work
| for big companies and eventually went on my own. I do not need
| somebody else to organize my life. I do job, client pays money
| and this is where it ends.
| xivusr wrote:
| Really appreciate the honest writing, and can appreciate the
| courage it takes to share this type of honest reflection
| publicly.
|
| Definitely keep writing, the "like a peacock" line made me
| chuckle :-)
| chiefrubberduck wrote:
| thank you for sharing your story and experience through all of
| this
| thecleaner wrote:
| I kinda applaud OP for sharing their personal story. However, I
| personally never understood why people give a shit about
| objectives which aren't tied to business objectives. I mean the
| build improvement of 10x is great, but so what ?
|
| Also, Stripe is barely profitable. As an engineer in big tech, I
| wouldn't even consider applying. You're better off targeting
| Principal engineer at Big Tech since it implies doing some really
| ground breaking software work. At that point, you probably don't
| have to worry about middle management and that bs. Outside the
| big 4 I had an experience where the manager read a Software
| engineering management book and would follow the things down to
| the letter like a superstition. It was a stupid exchange but
| ChatGPT really helped build my repository of meaningless
| corporate soeak. I find it to be a very useful skill.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| But that's the problem with the OP's job - "first hire onto the
| brand new JS Infra team".
|
| That doesn't sound like a customer/external developer-facing
| position.
|
| It can be hard to make a visible impact when your work is
| hidden behind many layers. But that's the nature of their job -
| it's not a "rainmaker" position, it's a cost centre.
|
| But it sounds like they wanted to have a job that had more
| visible impact.
| snapcaster wrote:
| I'm glad someone else mentioned this, i think too often
| engineers think they've done something huge because it was
| technically challenging but how does any of this impact the
| business? why would speeding up dashboard builds by 10x matter
| at all?
| pjot wrote:
| > He gave me a coderpad link. I started to read through the
| question. I could already feel my mind moving like molasses. On
| the surface the question seemed straightforward enough. It
| presented a simple data structure and asked me to do some
| filtering based on a set of constraints. "No problem!" I thought.
| I fired up vim and got to work.
|
| Wait, since when can you use your own editor? Is this common? Did
| I just fail to ask?
|
| My interview with Stripe felt similarly nerve wracking - with
| writing code in what may as well be TextEdit.app contributing to
| that feeling
| jlund-molfese wrote:
| Some companies will actually ask you to share your screen and
| run a bash script they provide to install dependencies live
| instead of providing a coderpad link.
|
| I don't like those interviews at all. It feels invasive if you
| aren't prepared with a VM already, and then you have to worry
| about undoing whatever their script did afterward.
| sashank_1509 wrote:
| > >he asked the team, "for this meeting I'd like us to try and
| introduce ourselves a little differently. If you're comfortable,
| I'd like us to try and be 10% more vulnerable than we normally
| would in a work setting."
|
| I think this is a ham fisted attempt at trying to solve one of
| the most isolating and painful issues of modern day work
| environments: the complete lack of any friendship or camaraderie
| whatsoever.
|
| I was not born in the 1980's but just reading stories of how
| people worked then, makes me feel that there was a level of trust
| and friendship somehow that is completely lacking in a modern
| job. It is a painful life when you cannot be friends with the
| folks you spend 40+ hours a week your entire life. I don't know
| why or how it has gotten to be this way. Modern pop psychology
| recommends you to be vulnerable and open, but that's definitely
| wrong, maybe even opposite of what you should do, I was never
| vulnerable with my college friends, but we did have kickass time
| in college and we were friends. I would much rather that just
| have continued into my professional life, but instead we get a
| sterilized environment, that we just live through trying to find
| meaning in our work, to make the passing of 40+ hours more
| pleasant.
| nunez wrote:
| You can't REALLY be friends with people that can extend or end
| your career. Needing to promote and fire people is part of the
| job. Doing these things friends is almost impossible to do.
|
| I'm almost certain this is talked about in most managerial
| training curriculums.
|
| This manager's tactic sounds like a tip from a book they read.
| Creating a safe space for teammates to feel comfortable enough
| to be vulnerable is ver hard, but asking them to be a smidge
| more vulnerable than last time is inauthentic and potentially
| dangerous in the hands of management with ulterior motives.
| nunez wrote:
| Hitting a wall sucks, and FAANG style tech companies know how to
| hurl their engineers (and their management) straight towards it.
|
| I'm glad you got out. Gotta look out for you, always; (most)
| companies sure as shit won't.
|
| Unrelated, but if OP is here, about this:
|
| > Things were moving rather smoothly despite my sweat soaked
| armpits. I silently resented my wife's decision to unilaterally
| give up anti-perspirant due to chemicals.
|
| Check out Arm and Hammer's Essentials deodorants. They don't
| contain aluminum and smell great despite being all natural. I
| switched to this deodorant after noticing that Mitchum deodorants
| were staining the pits of my shirts.
| vunderba wrote:
| _I remember the moment when my buddy Slacked me saying that my
| shipped email had been one of Patrick's tabs in a Friday
| Fireside. I hadn't attended because I was too busy trying to work
| more. My email admired by a billionaire? Bliss. The thought of
| Patrick noticing me felt unbelievably good._
|
| Oof. Allowing other people to dictate your own self-worth is
| always a bad sign. I'll take a five figure bonus pay out over a
| "good job old boy" pat on the back any day.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Hard learned lessons for some. The money is the validation,
| anything else is a call for therapy or more support from loved
| ones.
|
| https://thecontextofthings.com/2014/10/15/don-draper-thats-w...
| neilv wrote:
| The stereotypical brogrammer hazing interview at the start kinda
| foreshadowed everything else.
|
| When you see that a company is playing games in an interview, the
| questions are what other forms will the doofus/jerky culture take
| if you join, and how will it affect you.
| whiplash451 wrote:
| What kind of games are you referring to? The interview seemed
| standard to me.
| cipheredStones wrote:
| This is the entirety of the post's description of the
| interviewer and the interview itself:
|
| > He introduced himself and we settled into the usual ritual of
| a phone screen. ... He gave me a coderpad link. ... It
| presented a simple data structure and asked me to do some
| filtering based on a set of constraints. ... He kindly ended
| the interview and asked if I had any questions.
|
| Everything else is about the author struggling and being
| anxious. Where do you get "stereotypical brogrammer hazing"?
| neilv wrote:
| Because traditionally good software engineers in an interview
| would treat each other as colleagues, not turn the meeting
| into a one-way hazing.
|
| The CS101 hazing interview style was popularized by some CS
| students with no work experience, and then cargo-culted as
| religious rituals by others who also didn't have any other
| conception of what interviews for experienced professionals
| should be.
| dilyevsky wrote:
| Oh no! They asked a coding question for an l3 eng position and
| used coderpad, not some private environment which would be
| impossible to review after the call! Such hazing
|
| Actually one could argue if it kept being "stereotypical
| brogrammer" on the actual job, it would end up being much
| better outcome for the author
| whiplash451 wrote:
| The bigger lesson is that no company in the world (except _maybe_
| your own) should trigger so much emotional involvement from day
| one.
|
| With time you learn to put everything in perspective.
|
| I am worried that the author did not learn that lesson in the end
| since he quit with no job behind, which is not a sign of
| emotional stability.
| asadotzler wrote:
| Unless it's your own company, I mean really yours and not "I
| own 1/1,000,000 of it in stock".
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| What was the point of this to anyone who does not already know
| this person?
|
| I thought the internal memo was going to just be the background
| to set up the actual point which would be something they learned
| or something.
|
| Actually at first I thought it was going to be about Stripe's
| culture but there was really nothing too exceptionally bad, just
| ordinary bog standard work in a too-big company issues. The
| standout most offensive thing Stripe did to them was something
| they actually liked.
|
| So, fine, it won't be about how good or bad Stripe is, just about
| some process they went through and it starts with "I'm not
| feeling much purpose to my life and I'm not sure why not, but
| work as a developer in a generic bog standard tech company is not
| providing it."
|
| Ok, got it. Setup established. Ready for the point now. But then
| that's it. 'No "and then"'.
|
| Ok like, so what? The mere fact of deciding to quit a tech job
| for the vague reason of non-specific dissatisfaction is relevant
| to this person's direct close friends & family, _barely_ relevant
| to anyone else at their company, and not relevant at all to
| anyone else.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| you are provided with an up-close and detailed story of a
| person under pressure at a high-pressure company, and the
| ending is not a good ending for the high skill person. Since
| there is no conclusion drawn "for you" you must do the work of
| active imagination and decide for yourself, why "so what."
|
| At a minimum, some empathy for the person writing to start
| with.. being nauseous or in a cold sweat over work situations,
| interviews, the expectations of a spouse over stable income..
| lots of reasons.. This person is being a lot more than ten
| percent vulnerable in writing this.. they say right away they
| were torn over writing it in public.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Posing a problem is not a story or a point.
|
| All this is the posing of a problem, or the reciting of a
| sequence of mere events.
|
| "I tried to go to work today, but there was too much snow in
| the driveway."
| nojvek wrote:
| Hey Jon,
|
| Kudos for having courage to write it up. Enjoyed my time with you
| at Stripe.
|
| Large company cog syndrome is very real. Especially when
| performance reviews are not tied to reality but someone's inner
| monologue that you have no access to.
|
| Take care. Time heals most wounds. Oregon is a beautiful place.
| siliconc0w wrote:
| It makes sense to care about a 'startup' if it's like a few small
| teams, everyone knows each other, resources are still
| constrained, etc.
|
| But when the company is public or on their series Z funding round
| and the once nimble startup has devolved into a big ball of
| bureaucracy- the psychologically healthier thing is to not care.
| Your project may be no-scoped by a higher up for no discernable
| reason. Your trash manager was probably imported from a similarly
| bureaucratically burdened company and will import and impose
| their bullshit. You don't have any real agency or identity to
| this company which will treat you as an interchangeable resource.
| Sure, try to be useful where you can but seek validation and
| meaning outside of work. I generally recommend a side project you
| have agency in that can maybe one day replace your primary
| employment.
| kev009 wrote:
| Of course we only see one side of the story here, but as written
| the original manager sounds like a maniac. Letting someone
| complete a major and well received project and then sniping
| backward at how they did it with a performance review reeks of
| incompetent tyrant. Where the hell was the feedback and mentoring
| when it mattered?
|
| If you are worth your salt as a manager your reports should know
| exactly where they are going into performance reviews and that
| process should just be a formality to make the HR department
| whole. Unfortunately, a lot of dipshits end up in management
| because once you make it here it is a lot harder (ironically) to
| get performance reviewed out.
|
| The second manager also sounds pretty foolish, but at least in a
| more endearing and earnest way. That kind of emotional thing can
| and should be discussed on 1:1s once you have built up the
| relationship. As a manager you should be looking out for your
| reports and trying to set them up for long term success, and that
| means learning about their personal life to the extent that is
| mutually decided to be appropriate. Forcing emotionality out into
| a group setting sounds like a cringe moment in the Silicon Valley
| sitcom. This is a bad idea for so many reasons.. for one a lot of
| us are introverts and doing that is crushing anxiety.. and the
| innate peer pressure if others are doing it are going to lead to
| overshares and yet more anxiety. No.
|
| If the depression era fell under the same manager they also
| missed the importance of momentum. Momentum carries you through
| failure, depression, hard times.. and you need to give your team
| easy wins if they are falling behind to rebuild momentum.
| Otherwise it feels like jumping back on to a moving train.
|
| Based on this I'd wonder what's going on at Stripe. Run not walk
| from a situation like that, author made the right call.
| snapcaster wrote:
| I've always admired stripe as a user and follower of tech news
| but yeah both of these managers give off really bad vibes
| dlevine wrote:
| Reading this, I do get the impression that the Partially Meets
| Expectation was given to get more work out of this guy. It's the
| worst kind of manipulation - spinning something that was an
| unqualified success into a "failure." Especially because the boss
| clearly already had an internal narrative, and it sounds like
| they cherry-picked feedback from coworkers to support that
| narrative.
|
| Having had something somewhat similar happen in the past, it
| seems like this is common at high-growth tech companies. Everyone
| pretends to be your friend, and there are definitely some genuine
| people, but getting ahead is clearly number 1.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| I read it but ohhhh my gawwwwd what compels you all to write
| stuff like this about an employer, why is this any part of your
| identity at all? This is the opposite of having a life.
|
| Serious question, what is this mentality?
|
| tl;dr Look at this guy! He left a job without another job lined
| up after making half a million for 4 consecutive years! but only
| thought it was a big deal because he learned how to write but was
| disillusioned by his masters in other ways.
|
| Really, I don't get resignation posts. Like the ones on linkedin,
| or other social media. Just surreptitiously go like all the other
| people who just weren't there the next day. Whose slack randomly
| said (deactivated).
|
| Live your life
|
| But sure, whats the other perspective?
| snozolli wrote:
| _She, and apparently others she gathered feedback from, felt like
| I hadn't done a good enough job pulling other engineers into the
| project. She spoke of how proud she was of the outcome but that
| it didn't excuse my less than ideal methods._
|
| I gather from what he wrote that he's a software engineer. How is
| it his duty to "pull other engineers into the project"? What does
| management at this company do, besides invent contrived criticism
| to mash into a compliment sandwich? American corporate management
| culture has become laughably toxic over the last several decades.
| _heimdall wrote:
| The common sentiment here that the manager's "10% vulnerable"
| exercise was inappropriate or even abusive is a little surprising
| to me.Maybe I'm just showing my age a bit, but my immediate
| reaction would have just been that this is a stupid team building
| exercise (whether accurate or not, that's just how I'd see
| it).Assuming I generally like my boss I wouldn't be a jerk about
| it, but I wouldn't be interested in participating and would say
| that as matter-of-fact as I could. Especially if the manager led
| with "if your willing to..." that should be that, I'd be on with
| my day no harm no foul.
|
| For anyone coming by that would read the situation as
| inappropriate or abusive, what's different? Why do you see it
| abusive where I might see it a waste of time that I would just
| opt out of?
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