[HN Gopher] Wait Until 8th
___________________________________________________________________
Wait Until 8th
Author : zeroonetwothree
Score : 231 points
Date : 2024-10-31 20:32 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.waituntil8th.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.waituntil8th.org)
| larrik wrote:
| I applaud the initiative. I waited until the beginning of 7th and
| it was pretty hard, honestly. We don't give them free access to
| it, though (but ironically it's most valuable to ME for them to
| bring it to school).
| hotguysixpack wrote:
| Why is it beneficial to you? Did you have a dumb phone before
| for calls/texts?
| ragnese wrote:
| The waiting was hard, or your child having the phone in 7th
| grade was hard?
| empathy_m wrote:
| After high school ended (2:30pm) most days I used to have some
| kind of club activity (2:30pm-3:30pm) and then hang out in the
| cafeteria or by the front of the school, waiting for a parent to
| pick me up on the way home from work (5pm).
|
| I had a dumb phone so I could stay in touch, and I could also
| walk home if I wanted (40min / no sidewalks / 35mph roads), but
| most of the time I just sat down and did homework and read books.
| Spent a ton of time on the computer at home.
|
| Got through "Brothers Karamazov" and "Anna Karenina" that way --
| just 1.5hr a day of focused, uninterrupted time. I absolutely
| never would have read them and would have spent the whole time
| scrolling TikTok if I could have. Hrmm.
| OtomotO wrote:
| I would've gone home, every day. And then I would've read,
| after I played hours of World of Warcraft ;-)
|
| Oh wait, that's what actually happened!
|
| But I agree and I don't want to bd young these days anymore.
| rvba wrote:
| As if reading those books was any better than tik tok..
| hollerith wrote:
| "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that
| nothing can be known or communicated."
| rvba wrote:
| More like snobism: reading classic books for the sake of
| being able to brag about them. As if that made someone a
| better person.
|
| If the author at least did something creative... but nooo
| reading Brothers Karamazov as a kid is better than playing
| WoW.
|
| I still take the kid who created something, or at least
| spent time with other kids. And apparently the author
| didnt.
| kelnos wrote:
| I would say yes, reading Brothers Karamazov is probably a
| better use for a developing mind's time than playing WoW.
|
| Hell, that's a better use for an adult's time than
| playing WoW. But adults get to do whatever they want with
| their free time, and it would be hypocritical of me to
| judge.
| rvba wrote:
| The kid who plays wow at least plays in a group. And
| Dostoyevsky.. "Crime and punishment" is one of the worst
| books I ever read. You van literally skip 90% of it.
| Could be a 2 page short story.
|
| But feel free to downvote, apparently reading the
| classics makes one a classy person, not a dumb snob who
| thinks they are better than everyone...
| mrmuagi wrote:
| What are some of the best books you've ever read?
| kardianos wrote:
| We have a house phone, which is normally in the unihertz "student
| mode" which prevents installing apps and only allowing use of
| some apps.
|
| When our kids ask for their own phone, the answer is always an
| easy no. I have no problem with computers. But the internet is
| not your friend. Endless content is hard for me, a developed
| adult to resist at times.
|
| If they want to stay up late, their forced to sneak a book into
| their bed.
| switch007 wrote:
| > Endless content is hard for me, a developed adult to resist
| at times.
|
| Remind me of food
|
| Would you give your kid endless access to chips and sweets?
| cstuder wrote:
| For non-americans: Apparently this corresponds to 13-14 years
| old.
| hotguysixpack wrote:
| the beginning of secondary school, if that phrase is more known
| outside US
| beardyw wrote:
| Doesn't help if secondary school starts at a different age!
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Two years after the begininng of secondary school; in general
| lower-secondary starts around age 11, and in the US it
| usually begins with Junior High which is often, but not
| always, 7th grade,
| doublerabbit wrote:
| In the UK ages 12-13 are typically Year 7 of secondary
| school.
| notreallyauser wrote:
| Year 7's regular age range is 11-12: you're 11 going into
| the September that the school year starts and will be 12
| by the end of the following August.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| So it is, oops miscounted. Never was any good at math.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Year 7 in the UK, which is the right age.
| notreallyauser wrote:
| Other way round -- 8th grade is UK Year 9.
| odo1242 wrote:
| Which in America is the year that it becomes legal to use
| social media, if anyone's wondering (not like it's specifically
| illegal under, but collecting data from users under this age
| isn't allowed so the networks don't allow it)
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > Students in eighth grade are usually 13-14 years old.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_grade
|
| In case anyone else outside the US couldn't find the actual age
| when scanning the site.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Yeah I thought 8 years old was kinda surprisingly young to
| "wait" for!
| chris_wot wrote:
| This is clearly aimed at Americans only.
| kelnos wrote:
| Well, "Wait for 8th or whatever the similarly-aged grade
| level is in your area" doesn't sound quite as punchy.
|
| This is applicable to anyone, anywhere, though sure, it's
| targeted at a US audience.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| I think I'm missing your point. Would you rather I had not
| posted the age for people outside the US?
| chris_wot wrote:
| No, I'm saying the website is aimed squarely at those in
| the U.S.
| dpassens wrote:
| Is this really that US specific? Ages 6-7 seems to be pretty
| common for first grade1, which gives you 13-14 for eighth.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_stage
| thebruce87m wrote:
| In Scotland, the first year of school is Primary 1
|
| We have P1-P7, then secondary S1 - S4, with S5 and S6
| optional.
|
| > Children start primary school aged between 41/2 and 51/2
| depending on when the child's birthday falls.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Scotland
| Nition wrote:
| Weirdly the site actually clarifies that they mean end of 8th
| grade at the earliest, so more like 14-15 I think.
| zetazzed wrote:
| I'm still surprised the "dumb phone for kids" and "dumb watch
| with basic comms" markets are so underdeveloped (from my
| perspective). I would love my kids to have (a) gps tracking, (b)
| ability to send texts/calls to like 5 predefined numbers, (c)
| tell the time, and nothing else. But watches all seem to have
| games or weird gamified fitness trackers (Google's new fitbit for
| kids). Or they are super kid-ish, like bright blue with animal
| icons, and would be revolting to my older kids. That would make
| it easy to wait until 9th grade for a more feature-rich phone,
| though maybe still not unfettered access.
|
| Does anyone have a basic watch/dumbphone solution for older kids
| that they like?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Gabb seems to be the closest, but even that has a "virtual pet"
| type game built in that gamifies certain things.
|
| I've also done an android phone with an MDM in kiosk mode. None
| of those let you limit who is contacted though, so it ends up
| being more like a classic dumb phone in that you can't browse
| the web, but can dial whomever you want. Just make sure that
| you disable the Google SMS app and use a stripped down one (I
| used simple-sms).
| jordanthoms wrote:
| Also interested in this - the Apple Watch for Kids setup seems
| a possibility, but it's only available in certain countries
| lairv wrote:
| Everyone has a different threshold for what they want from a
| dumb phone, some wants Google Maps, some think Youtube is ok,
| Google Chrome etc. which makes it hard to have a one true dumb
| phone. If you give access to the play store it's no longer a
| dumb phone
|
| The best way to have a dumb phone tailored to your needs is to
| take a cheap smartphone and make it dumb, either by using a
| different launcher, or a customized OS
|
| I wish there was an easy to customize "dumb android os" that
| would let you pick initial applications you want to have, and
| then disable play store
| adriand wrote:
| It's true. My daughter didn't have a phone until 9th grade,
| which she just started. She had talked about getting a dumb
| phone because she wasn't very into the smartphone thing,
| which I was supportive of. However she now takes public
| transit to high school, and really wanted the Transit app so
| she could easily navigate in the city. So, an iPhone is where
| we landed.
|
| And I have to say, it is astounding how quickly that thing
| got its hooks into her. I naively thought she might have been
| immune to it, given her habits and attitude. Boy was I wrong.
| mulmen wrote:
| That's sad but probably inevitable. Is there room for
| something like a personal Garmin navigation device? Does
| that already exist?
| computerdork wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what are her phone habits like? And, as
| others have mentioned, you can turn on parental controls to
| limit what apps she can have on it. Have you done this
| already?
| Aeolun wrote:
| I only have to look at my own phone habits to know that
| expecting any better from my children is probably
| unreasonable.
| throwaway494932 wrote:
| Isn't this what Family link [1] is for ?
|
| Or you can get an iPhone and use parental controls. My kids
| has a tablet and I get to decide what can be used and for how
| long, and nothing gets installed without my approval.
|
| [1] https://families.google/familylink/
| Aeolun wrote:
| Nothing gets installed without 2 approvals, and 3
| confirmations with your passcode. I really wish they'd fix
| all that duplication.
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| Either Android or iPhones can be customized. The parent has
| to take the time to sit down and set it up.
|
| The iPhone has a lot of parental setting customization. You
| can disable certain built in apps, prevent installing
| anything from the App Store or just prevent making purchases,
| set screen time restrictions, and a whole bunch of other
| things [1].
|
| Android has similar settings with Family Link [2].
|
| [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/105121
|
| [2] https://www.androidauthority.com/android-parental-
| controls-e...
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I didn't have a phone at all until I was in high school!
| Looking back on all the times that I was tragically killed or
| maimed as a result, it's a miracle I'm able to write this
| comment today!
| brewdad wrote:
| I'm glad to see high schools pushing back on this. My college
| student had classes their first two years that required a
| smartphone in order to participate in class. Failure to
| procure an Android or Apple device that could run the app
| they used was an automatic 20% markdown on one's final grade
| for non-participation.
| tirant wrote:
| Smart watches were banned in our kids primary school as some of
| them have cameras and were used to take inappropriate photos.
| We have finally decided for an analog watch and no tracking as
| we live in a safe neighborhood and they know most of the
| neighbors.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I got my child an AppleWatch SE (a few years ago), which yeah,
| technically has a bunch of apps but they're not really useful
| or of interest to them, and if they don't have social media
| accounts (which mine don't), then it acts as a phone and
| locater without all the rest.
|
| On the downside they kept begging for a phone so they could
| text their friends, which was reasonable, and texting on the
| Watch is a terrible experience. So we finally did give in to a
| phone but with locked down parental controls, so they can't
| install apps, etc. (though I'm finding those iOS parental
| controls don't work as well I had hoped; there's a huge issue
| with them being reset suddenly -- lots of forums of people
| complaining about this).
| vundercind wrote:
| If it's like an iPhone (or Mac!) you can disable all the apps
| you don't want them to use.
|
| Apple parental controls are great. Except on the AppleTV. I
| just want PIN unlock for any apps not on an allow-list. This
| does not seem like much to ask. But no.
| maxbond wrote:
| I would submit map functionality to the list as well. I think
| it would be healthy for a kid old enough to tell time to
| experiment with navigating, maybe following along on their map
| on drives.
| couchdb_ouchdb wrote:
| https://www.thelightphone.com/
| dgacmu wrote:
| We've used both gabb and an apple watch and they both work
| decently well. The apple watch has a few too many features by
| default but it's not as engrossing as a smartphone. The gabb
| watch was great overall. We switched from gabb -> apple at the
| end of 6th grade because we felt like our daughter had reached
| a point of being able to ignore the distractions of the watch
| in most settings and for the most part that's worked out well.
| We upgraded specifically to allow texting/IM'ing friends, which
| may or may not be within what some people want happening.
|
| I will note that having her be able to call us is fantastic.
| There's a lot of end-of-school "hey you need to walk home today
| / walk over to my office / oh wait i'll pick you up" kind of
| coordination, which we could probably avoid with careful
| advance planning but it's really nice to be able to be
| flexible.
|
| And also, youtube shorts / tiktok are the most addictive thing
| I've seen put in front of a child that age. She can browse YT
| shorts on her school computer at home (!!) and it's .. it's
| really stunning how absorbing it is for her. And not in a good
| way.
| tw04 wrote:
| They already make this. Gizmo on Verizon. SyncUp on T-Mobile.
| Garmin bounce if you're ok with them only being able to send
| voice memos and not call.
| asveikau wrote:
| My daughter has a normal android phone with Google Family Link
| and tons of builtin apps removed and websites blocked. The
| parental controls are pretty good.
| brycethornton wrote:
| Apple Watches have been great for us. Both of my kids (ages 10 &
| 13) use a cellular Apple Watch which gives them a way to
| call/text with us and their friends but it doesn't give them
| access to social media. I know they'll want a phone soon (my
| youngest is already asking) but it's an easy "no" for us. I think
| waiting until around age 14 (or later) sounds about right. I'd
| like to delay even longer if possible. We'll see how hard they
| push.
| whstl wrote:
| Not a kid anymore but I bought one for myself to reduce my own
| cell phone usage.
|
| It's amazing.
|
| I can pay for stuff, I can make calls, I can use maps, I can
| hear music, store my subway card QR-code.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| I'm going to post the same comment I did last year when this
| showed up on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36207142),
| as checking the website it still seems to be true:
|
| Literally none of the evidence on the website's own "Why" page
| supports their suggestion: https://www.waituntil8th.org/why-wait
|
| All of the studies (bonus points for linking to news articles
| instead of directly to the studies) have something to do with
| "time spent using screens/a phone/social media", but nothing to
| do with age of first use.
|
| How can anyone trust this website has any basis in reality when
| they wrote a whole page explaining why and none of it was
| applicable?
|
| Of course parents should regulate how much time their kids spend
| on electronics (similar to how parents of previous generations
| would prevent kids from watching TV 5 hours a day) - but this
| website presents no evidence that giving a kid a smartphone in
| 8th grade rather than 5th grade would make a meaningful
| difference.
| jb1991 wrote:
| IMO it's not the phone itself that matters, it's what the kids
| do on it. Phone can be good to communicate with parents, bad
| for nearly anything else at a young age.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Kids entire social lives run on their phones. Covid
| accelerated this and pushed down the age for where this was
| true.
|
| Denying your kid a smart phone is basically denying them a
| social life nowadays. It simply doesn't work unless everyone
| does it.
| couchdb_ouchdb wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/dumbphones/
| prepend wrote:
| You may be confusing what happens with a phone with what is
| required.
|
| Certainly kids can have a social life without a phone. It's
| not required. I just had a kid who didn't get instagram
| until 14. They claimed that their life was ruined, but they
| had a healthy social life without it (and without a phone).
|
| I think people generalize what will happen without things
| they think are common incorrectly. Just because phones are
| used for many things, it doesn't mean those things are
| impossible without phones.
|
| I do think it works better if more parents did it and it
| was so nice to find other parents (super rare) who felt
| similarly.
| davidclark wrote:
| This counterpoint feels like it needs just as much scrutiny
| as the position it's refuting.
|
| Isn't "but everyone else has one" the appeal kids make to
| their parents about most everything? (I know I was guilty
| of that as a kid myself)
|
| Why is this a new level of "denying them a social life"?
| kelnos wrote:
| Because if you deny a kid a Nintendo, even though
| "everyone has one", it doesn't kill their social life,
| because they can still go over to a friend's house to
| play (arguably, this is _better_ for their social life).
|
| If you don't give them a smartphone, and all their peers
| use their phones to communicate, as well as talk about
| TikTok videos, your kid will be excluded from all that.
| If that's where the majority of interaction takes place,
| then yes, it does deny them a social life.
| johnny22 wrote:
| I grew up before smartphones and if somebody took away my
| very normal corded phone I would have definitely been had
| a much time communicating with my friends. I wouldn't
| have been happy about that at all. I did spend hours
| talking to friends perhaps even to the detriment of my
| studies.
|
| What are we really trying to stop here? Are we really
| just trying to stop all the addicting apps? if so.. maybe
| we should be focusing on that at a higher level.
| em500 wrote:
| At least below age 12 or so, our kid's social life consists
| entirely of classmates that she sees 7 hours a day at
| school during weekdays, after school and in weekends
| playdates with classmates that she likes, sports, music and
| swimming lessons,and some time with parents in somewhere
| between. Where does the phone come on?
|
| In our class we were the first to give our kid's a phone.
| She doesn't find it very interesting and barely spent any
| time on it, since she the only ones that she know with a
| phone number are her parents.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| I'd say cell phone penetration is sitting at about 25% with
| my 6th graders friend cohort and that seems to hold up when
| I talk to my friends with kids.
|
| I don't know if that will hold until 8th grade but for now
| my kids social life seems to revolve around the
| neighborhood, school and his activities.
|
| I was under the impression phones/social networks were
| becoming unpopular. My kid certainly has a dim view of the
| latter.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Assuming that's true*, it honestly isn't good reason to
| give your kids a smartphone. Your job description as a
| parent is pretty much to stop your kids from doing things
| they don't understand will hurt them. There's (imo) plenty
| of evidence that smartphones are hurting kids, and
| therefore it's a parent's job to crack down on it even if
| it costs them in their social life. Like, if all the other
| kids were shooting up heroin it would be considered insane
| to say "you have to let them do it because all their
| friends are junkies", and I don't see it as being different
| for phones.
|
| *It's also not clear that your premise is even true. Plenty
| of parents in the past have reported how their kids'
| friends adjusted just fine to not being able to use a
| smartphone to contact them, and that they still had healthy
| social lives.
| ahnick wrote:
| Please provide links to the "plenty of evidence that
| smartphones are hurting kids".
| brewdad wrote:
| Google exists
| dash2 wrote:
| The point of the pledge is that you take it and you
| encourage other parents in your school/neighbourhood to
| take it. So this helps solve the coordination problem:
|
| "By signing the online pledge, you promise not to give your
| child a smartphone until at least the end of 8th grade as
| long as at least 10 families total from your child's grade
| and school pledge. Once 10 families have pledged to delay
| the smartphone, you will be notified that the pledge is
| active! You will receive a list of families who are
| delaying from your child's grade and emails for the
| parents."
| odo1242 wrote:
| I think most social activities can be done on computers,
| no? Using Google Voice / VoIP service of your choice and
| whatnot
|
| The only exception to this I see is WhatsApp (which I've
| always hated for expecting all users to have a phone and
| try to avoid for that reason)
| jrussino wrote:
| > It simply doesn't work unless everyone does it.
|
| I've said this elsewhere in this thread, but it bears
| repeating: that's the whole point of this program.
|
| Parents are playing the prisoners' dilemma here. Many
| (most) feel like cell phones (social media in particular)
| are a net negative for younger kids. But they don't want
| their kids to be left out / socially isolated. So it's
| really easy to get into a situation where we all defect
| because "I don't really like this but everyone else is
| doing it". This "wait until 8th" thing provides a framework
| for parent to agree to cooperate on this issue.
|
| TBD if it actually works. I certainly like the idea that we
| have some control over our culture/community and don't just
| need to passively accept a "tragedy of the commons" on an
| issue like this.
| jb1991 wrote:
| > Kids entire social lives run on their phones.
|
| > Denying your kid a smart phone is basically denying them
| a social life nowadays.
|
| Wow, what country is that true? Thankfully, not in the
| country I reside. None of the children I know have social
| lives that revolve around the phone.
|
| Wherever you live, if the phone is already the central
| aspect of a child's social life, that is a great tragedy.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Pretty much secondary school in the UK (12+). I'm
| guessing middle schools / high schools in the US are the
| same? Yes, literally every kid in secondary school has a
| cell phone. Kids have whatsapp groups and communicate all
| the time with their friend circles.
|
| According to an Ofcom survey in 2023, 9 in 10 kids aged
| 11 have a smartphone in the UK.
|
| 1: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-
| briefings/cdp-...
| cxr wrote:
| > Kids entire social lives run on their phones.
|
| So on the matter of re-opening schools, there was no need
| for it that was related to their social well-being?
| cortesoft wrote:
| Why is texting friends bad?
|
| My daughter has autism, and struggles to connect with her
| classmates. She gets overwhelmed in groups, and is shy
| talking in person sometimes.
|
| Now that her classmates started messaging each other, she is
| actually being included a lot more. She has started messaging
| and setting up online play dates with her classmates. I was
| so proud when I found her playing Minecraft with a class mate
| while FaceTiming. She was playing with a friend!
|
| I don't care what anyone says, that is good for my daughter.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| 8th grade may be somewhat arbitrary, but as children grow older
| you trust them more with things that you didn't when they were
| younger, teaching them responsibility and independence over
| time.
|
| I don't need a website to provide some type of evidence (not
| sure what kind of evidence you'd be referring to) to understand
| that. It's parenting 101. This is just applying it to social
| networks (that's the issue more than the phone itself) just it
| would apply to any other type of social interaction (going out
| with friends by themselves, TV, gaming, etc.)
| jordanmorgan10 wrote:
| What age did you allow your kids to have a smartphone if you
| don't mind me asking?
| dash2 wrote:
| Presumably if time spent using these things is bad, then
| ensuring children spend no time on them till 8th grade will be
| an improvement. What am I missing?
| treflop wrote:
| I regularly see gangs of e-bike groms with cellphones
| terrorizing my town.
|
| I'm not sure having a smartphone has at all impacted their
| outside time.
| tqi wrote:
| The path they took to get to this pledge feels very similar to
| the path anti-vaccination advocates took (ie something
| intuitively "feels" bad -> look for evidence to support that).
| If a study came out that showed evidence that having a
| smartphone at an early age actually improved educational
| outcomes, do you think these people would reverse their
| position? I would guess not because above all else, this is a
| value judgement ("These devices are quickly changing childhood
| for children. Playing outdoors, spending time with friends,
| reading books and hanging out with family is happening a lot
| less to make room for hours of snap chatting, instagramming,
| and catching up on YouTube.").
|
| And to be clear, there is nothing wrong with a value judgement.
| But trying to foist your values onto others is not something
| feel the need to support.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Even better, try to convince them to wait until at least their
| eighth wedding anniversary if at all possible.
| grecy wrote:
| I remember recently reading about a town where all the parents in
| the entire town agreed not to give their kids smartphones, so
| then none felt they were missing out.
|
| I think that could work really well
| switch007 wrote:
| It takes a village!
| jrussino wrote:
| > none felt they were missing out
|
| Exactly. It seems obvious to me that the vast majority of
| social media is junk and I'd prefer to keep my kids from
| getting drawn into it for as long as possible, and I think a
| ton of parents feel this way. The main counter-argument I hear
| is that "that's where socializing happens these days, and if
| you keep them away from it they'll just be left out / isolated
| from their peers".
|
| An initiative like this acknowledges that we have some control
| over our culture. We don't just need to put up with a shitty
| status quo because "that's the way it is".
| talldayo wrote:
| I grew up in a town where kids used yo-yos as economic status
| symbols and needed adult chaperones to resolve Pokemon card
| trading disputes that ended up in tears. In my sophomore
| English class I watched two kids fight after one accused the
| other of wearing a fake designer sweatshirt.
|
| You can lead a horse away from water, but you can't stop it
| from getting thirsty. Reckoning with disparity is what helps
| kids grow up and shed the solipsism of childhood - take the
| smartphones away and you're leaving them even less equipped to
| deal with modern life. It's a catch-22, but I don't think
| banning everything digital is going to improve anyone's quality
| of life, kids or parents.
| grecy wrote:
| > _take the smartphones away and you 're leaving them even
| less equipped to deal with modern life._
|
| I grew up without a smartphone and have done just fine as a
| software engineer. I don't think access to a smartphone
| before age 15 would correlate to better life outcomes.
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Younger millennial chiming in: I'm pretty sure that 8th grade is
| exactly when I got my first smartphone, although social media had
| a fraction of the presence back then, so it's hard to draw a
| direct comparison to today. But I do feel like the timing worked
| out well enough: not having a smartphone until that point (since
| they didn't exist lol) turned me into a voracious reader, and the
| dumbphone I did have meant I was still able to text friends
| sporadically (T9 anyone?), but getting a smartphone was a good
| step towards the increased independence and social connectivity
| of high school. Also brought me into the world of ebook piracy to
| feed my reading habit, and the world of smartphone
| mods/jailbreaking to feed my geek streak.
| warner25 wrote:
| This makes me think, as I've thought previously, that the
| generational labels seem too broad for the pace of change in
| information technology over the last 40 years. I read your
| comment as an older Millenial and thought "what?! a
| _smartphone_ in 8th grade?! "
|
| Despite being in the same "generation," someone born in the
| mid-80s came of age with radically different consumer
| technology compared to someone born just ten years later in the
| mid-90s. I have clear memories of trying to understand what the
| "Information Superhighway" was, and then getting dial-up
| Internet in our home for the first time. At the end of 8th
| grade, I convinced my dad to upgrade from 33 kbps dial-up to
| cable. As a sophomore in college, I remember thinking that some
| company would make a lot of money by putting Wi-Fi access
| points everywhere so we could have always-on Internet access
| with some sort of mobile device... Just a night-and-day
| difference from the experience of someone getting a smartphone
| in 8th grade.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _This makes me think, as I 've thought previously, that the
| generational labels seem too broad for the pace of change in
| information technology over the last 40 years._
|
| Yeah, no kidding. I'm an older millennial as well, and I
| didn't have a _dumb_ phone until my senior year of college,
| let alone a smartphone.
|
| My experience growing up was so much different from someone
| born just 10 years after me, even though we're technically in
| the same "generation".
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Ha, maybe the labels were more useful when day-to-day
| technology wasn't progressing as quickly as it is now!
|
| Your internet story is also funny to me because my dad worked
| at an ISP when I was a toddler. One of my earliest computer
| memories is when he taught me how to go into the Windows 98
| graphics menu and toggle the color settings from 16-bit to
| 32-bit (or vice versa, can't remember now) before booting up
| a particular CD-ROM game, because otherwise the graphics
| would be put of whack. I must have been four or five.
|
| I also remember asking why I couldn't play the games whose
| cool icons were always visible in the taskbar... turns out
| those "games" were Napster and IrfanView, lol.
| rammer wrote:
| Wouldn't it be simpler to implement an Mobile device management
| app / overlay that restricts all actions but the select few.
|
| Phone calls / SMS to 5 numbers Clock enforce GPS on until battery
| is less than 20 No smart phone functions No data access
| syndicatedjelly wrote:
| That sounds like the opposite of simple
| mmcgaha wrote:
| Among my children, my oldest got an iphone for Christmas in 2007
| when he was 17. The other four got them spread out over the
| following ten years but progressively younger in age. I cannot
| say that I see a big difference in their phone usage, grades, or
| social development. It seems to me that they all just got more
| attached to the phone the longer they had it. I am starting to
| see some push back from my 16-year-old after reading "Stolen
| Focus" a few months back and I hear that other kids her age are
| doing the same.
| computerdork wrote:
| Very interesting. Was wondering, are there any differences in
| how independent they are at the same age? Have read that there
| is a possibility that the smartphone may be contributing to the
| development of children to be delayed by a year or two. For
| instance, are your younger children less interested in driving
| at the same age and doing things on their own.
|
| ... although, even if this is true, this could just be that
| kids seem to be more attached to their parents then they used
| to be (have read this as well).
| michaelfm1211 wrote:
| I see the good intentions, but it's too idealistic. In many
| families both parents work and kids are expected to get home by
| themselves (such was the case for me from 3rd grade onwards).
| Smartphones are simply a necessity for communication and Google
| Maps. I can only ever see this working with upper middle class
| nuclear families with a stay at home parent.
| 50208 wrote:
| Or ... we could continue doing what worked for all of us before
| being tethered to phones. Communicate beforehand / afterwards /
| using shared phones (which still exist) and learning to
| navigate the world using brains.
| NBJack wrote:
| Aspirational at best I'm afraid. What happens when the other
| partner/parent/family member isn't responsible, smashing your
| plans? Or if the event has a variable end time with no safe
| care or phone in between? How do you deal with emergencies
| like school closures that now require every child to line up
| to use available landlines (my personal favorite experience)?
|
| Landlines are becoming scant in my particular part of my
| country, YMMV. I rarely even see them in my workplace
| anymore.
| kawogi wrote:
| So, no flexibility, spontaneity? So far we had:
|
| - "I'd like to stay with a friend after school - they'll
| drive me home after dinner", "Sure, thanks for the info, have
| fun"
|
| - "Fire alert, I'm fine but bored"
|
| - "Had to help a friend with an accident, will be home 1h
| later approx"
|
| - Bus didn't turn up, uses app to improvise an alternative
| connection
|
| - asking teachers about details from the lessons
|
| - getting a news-feed from school
|
| - looking up the schedule if things change
|
| - manage their calendar and todo-lists
|
| - set an alarm/reminder
|
| So basically "everything" an adult does with their phone to
| make their lives easier.
|
| After that there's enough brain left to learn that social
| media is something that needs special attention
| dpassens wrote:
| Why would you need Google Maps to get home from school? I have
| an absolutely terrible sense of direction, but even I can
| memorize a single route after walking it a couple of times.
| WillyF wrote:
| I'd like to see something for this for travel sports.
| boogieknite wrote:
| Grew up with a few guys who made pro teams and travel didnt
| help any of them or any of the other schlubs like me. Many of
| the best guys didnt even do travel for money or other reasons.
| We would have been better off playing at the park on the
| weekends.
| doakes wrote:
| In my area it's becoming very popular for schools (middle and
| high) to restrict phones. They put them in the pouch things. I'm
| a bit surprised how much the parents support it. Talking to a
| local journalist he said he couldn't find parents with good
| arguments against it. One of them was "my son runs an online
| business and needs access to his phone for it".
|
| I couldn't get a cell until I had a driver's license, which I
| think made sense at the time. Today, a kid might be alienated
| without a phone.
| 50208 wrote:
| "Today, a kid might be alienated without a phone." Might ...
| but more likely not. I can't understand why this irrational
| fear of potential social problems if not tethered to a phone is
| outweighing the clear evidence of actual social problems when
| tethered to a phone has so much traction with adults.
| jrussino wrote:
| > Today, a kid might be alienated without a phone.
|
| That's really the point of a program like this. A lot of
| parents think smartphones (mainly social media, really) are a
| net negative for their kids, but we have this tragedy of the
| commons situation where no one wants their kid to be left out /
| socially isolated. Having this "wait until 8th" thing is
| basically parents playing the prisoner's dilemma getting
| together and agreeing that it we'd be much happier if everyone
| cooperates rather than defect on this issue.
| alpb wrote:
| I feel like every sentence on this website has a missing
| <sup>[citation needed]</sup> next to it.
| kawogi wrote:
| I had the same sentiment when reading.
|
| It all looks like B'n'W opinions and mixing devices and
| services. I completely miss the "parenting" aspect. It's all
| about prohibition.
| urbandw311er wrote:
| What does the "8th grade" mean?
| doublerabbit wrote:
| 8th school grade in the US which equates to around 13 years
| old.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| More discussion from 2023:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36207142
| hidelooktropic wrote:
| Maybe off topic, but is that AI gen gore on the image of the
| small child looking down at his phone on the left?
| yobananaboy wrote:
| Oh wow that is surprisingly spooky, looks like something out of
| Coraline.
| NBJack wrote:
| It honestly looks more like a really, really bad photoshop
| cutout to me (weird but consistent edge, nose issue my be a
| blowout). AI generators I've used tend to get lighting more or
| less consistent but with edges that can waffle between blurry
| and sharp.
| 50208 wrote:
| Good start ... but it should actually be "Wait until 18". I did
| this with my son and, now at 25, he has a much more normal
| perspective on connectivity and social media than most his age.
| There was ZERO downside (for all you worrisome types who think
| not having a phone is bad for some reason). Thinking kids "need
| phones!" for safety / socialization are making that shit up
| entirely.
| PHGamer wrote:
| meanwhile millenials had full reign over the internet as kids
| cause their boomer parents didnt know shit. back when everyone
| did the famous A/S/L questionare from randos online lol.
| diputsmonro wrote:
| It's not just about internet access , it's about the medically
| recognized highly addictive and predatory nature of social
| media. It is designed with the same principles as slot
| machines, to draw you in and keep you engaged for as long as
| possible. The internet we grew up in was much less centralized
| and not yet optimized for this kind of manipulation.
| warner25 wrote:
| I think you're right, plus there was a solid wall dividing
| online life from "IRL" back then. When I asked and answered
| "A/S/L" among randos, we were all anonymous. It was an escape
| from the social dynamics among my peers at school, sports,
| church, etc.
|
| For a while, there was some consensus that anonymity and
| talking to strangers was the danger. So we got real name and
| photo policies, and the expectation that we'd have an online
| presence that was an extension of our real selves. Now that
| every kid's online persona is indivisible from their IRL
| identity, and their popularity can be measured with likes and
| followers and inclusion / exclusion from group chats, it just
| allows the social dynamics among their peers to play out 24/7
| on steroids with no escape.
| newhotelowner wrote:
| Our school says that every single time a kid gets a notification
| or call, everyone gets distracted, and that's why they are not
| allowing any one carry phone/smart watch.
|
| Which I totally agree with.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Not allowing something at school is a lot different than not
| allowing something anywhere.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| If we've built something harmful here, why are we only protecting
| the kids from it? There's got to be a way to handle this more
| directly.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Fair point, but there are a couple of reasons why we would only
| apply this to kids. First, something can be harmful to children
| and not to adults. Second, even if smartphones are harmful to
| adults, for better or for worse we let adults ruin themselves.
| It's a necessary condition of freedom, that you have the
| ability to make bad choices as well as good.
| rvba wrote:
| I find it fascinating, that hacker news, the literal community
| for people tinkering with stuff seems to be full of people who
| want to gut their kids instead of teaching them how to use stuff
| responsibly.
|
| Probably tons of people here know how to code since they've
| learned on their own.
|
| Reality is that the kid will be a loser / outsider due to no
| phone. Also kids have a lot of time that could be used to learn
| stuff. And even playing games is... not that bad.
|
| But I guess kids should learn chinese or what is the current fad
| now or torment the kid with 50 extraculliculars.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > Reality is that the kid will be a loser / outsider due to no
| phone.
|
| That is supposition, not reality, and there are parents here
| who have shared their experience with kids having a healthy
| social life without a phone. More importantly, a very important
| role of parents is to make good decisions for their kids when
| the kids are still too immature to do that. "But all my friends
| are doing it" is literal child reasoning and should not be the
| only factor in parenting decisions.
| rvba wrote:
| If the kids are "parented" by terror, not actual teaching,
| they will have a problem once they leave their bubble.
|
| Never met that guy who drank every day at university or that
| opressed girl who fucked 50 people in the first year?
|
| Sheltered and not parented kids end like that. Breaking the
| chain syndrome.
| ziddoap wrote:
| > _and there are parents here who have shared their
| experience with kids having a healthy social life without a
| phone._
|
| And there are others who have shared their experiences of
| responsibly teaching their kids how to coexist with
| technology. There's probably a lot more that aren't willing
| to say so, because they'll be roasted in the comments for
| being a "bad parent".
|
| I don't let my kids have unfettered access to social media.
| But I let them have a smartphone. And I took the time
| initially, and continually, to have conversations about
| having a healthy relationship with technology.
|
| Somehow this debate is always completely lacking in any sort
| of middle ground or nuance.
| kawogi wrote:
| I wholeheartedly agree.
|
| I think it's more important to talk about the services they
| use than what device they're on.
|
| And most problematic services already have an age limit.
| It's the parents' damn job to make sure their kids are
| prepared for the usage of those services.
|
| I'm more worried about the youtube-consumption on the PC
| than chatting with class-mates about school-related
| questions via smartphone.
| diputsmonro wrote:
| I know the site clarifies it, but the headline messaging on this
| is meaninglessly confusing.
|
| "Wait until 8th!"
|
| "Oh, you mean their 8th birthday?"
|
| "No, 8th grade!"
|
| "Oh, so wait until they're in 8th grade, got it!"
|
| "No no, until the _end_ of the 8th grade, when they graduate
| middle school! "
|
| "Oh, so it's really wait until 9th"
|
| Just seems like this would be the beginning of every conversation
| and lead to a non-unified approach. They should emphasize it
| being like an intro to high-school gift or something.
| Nition wrote:
| Agreed 100%. Additional factors on top of all those is some
| countries start year 1 at age five, and others at age 6, and of
| course there's a variety of actual ages within a grade as well.
|
| "Wait Until 9th" would have definitely helped a lot. "Wait
| until 14" might be even clearer. Or even "wait until high
| school".
| socksy wrote:
| I mean as a non American, I think this is one of the most
| American sites I've seen all week, and do not get the
| impression that they will particularly mind if it's ambiguous
| for other people in other countries
| Nition wrote:
| That's fair, it's certainly very USA-centric (although they
| should still call it "Wait Until 9th"!).
| iwontberude wrote:
| You work with the domains you have/can register.
| ortusdux wrote:
| https://www.whois.com/whois/waituntilhighschool.com
| fsckboy wrote:
| till I read it, i thought it meant the 8th of November,+ and I
| was thinking "does this have something to do with the
| election?" I was a little afraid to click "take the pledge" for
| fear of what I might be supporting
|
| + obscure trivial point of US law for fer'ners, US elections
| are held on "the first Tuesday after the first Monday of
| November" which puts them anywhere from Nov 2 to Nov 8, so
| that's why "wait till the 8th" is an election trigger.
| jrussino wrote:
| I really like this program but yeah, the very first time
| someone told me about it my initial reaction was "Wait until
| 8??? That's way too young!"
| esquivalience wrote:
| "Let 'em whine until ninth" just didn't have the same ring to
| it.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| It's supposed to be vague and confusing, it's part of the
| clickbait.
| drcongo wrote:
| I'm in the UK and have no idea what age 8th grade even is.
| gnabgib wrote:
| Same as Year 7
| Bengalilol wrote:
| I am from Switzerland, does this mean 13-14 years old ?
| eikenberry wrote:
| And what am I waiting for?!?
| trump2025 wrote:
| IMHO, this feels like another wave of nannyism that follows after
| a new technology matures. Being a 90s kid, discovering porn,
| violence, warez were all normal part of growing up that I don't
| think has had any negative impact nor do the puritan panic about
| pornography.
|
| Matter of fact the internet started speedrunning censorship and
| monopolization post 9/11 without much of a fight and I think this
| triggered the default in people to just shrug and seek other ways
| to access and share data.
|
| It's as ridiculous as suggesting Bittorrent is harmful for kids
| because of its unrestricted limitless amount of data. What's more
| harmful is preventing discovering adaptation and self-balancing
| on their own in the face of endless entertainment wish
| diminishing value.
|
| There's just so many things outside internet and smartphones that
| even adults struggle to balance, the last thing I think kids need
| are adults taking away that trial by fire and allowing themselves
| to develop their own sense of moderation.
| vacuity wrote:
| Some fears in this genre are well overblown, I agree. I also
| like the idea of kids learning for themselves, but it depends
| on whether they can learn before it becomes unmanageable. There
| is probably middle ground between no phone and phone here, and
| a less spoken about factor (IME) is that some kids and parents
| just have different dispositions and outcomes. Whether _that_
| is nature or nurture, it 's hard to isolate or alter much right
| now. There is definitely nannyism following a new technology. I
| think it becomes gradually more true not because technology is
| inherently dangerous or something, but because we are producing
| technology that likely is more and more dangerous. Of course I
| don't consider social media addiction and Bittorrent on the
| same level.
| Epa095 wrote:
| I think this post from another thread is a good answer to this.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41930275#41931671
|
| Tldr:Seeing shock content is like eating a spoon of salt. The
| mind has defence mechanisms for it. You consume it, you are
| disgusted, and you never want to do it again. Consuming social
| media is like eating fast food
| cheschire wrote:
| Then block social media. Don't let the kids install apps,
| don't let them access the web, control who they can message.
| Why is the phone itself the problem?
| ahnick wrote:
| Exactly. All of this screen time is bad for kids and the
| phone is the devil reincarnate is ludicrous. The type of
| content they are consuming is what parents should monitor.
| Allow kids to use the device appropriately. If they do
| something with the device that you deem as inappropriate,
| then talk to them and correct the behavior. It is through
| mistakes that kids (and adults) really learn. Sheltering
| and avoidance will do nothing to prepare them for the real
| world once they reach early adulthood.
| computerdork wrote:
| I see where your coming from (and I'm an indepedent since you
| mention Trump in your alias, so would like to open to both
| sides of an argument). But I kind of agree with keeping
| smartphones from kids. Yeah, like anything that is "really
| good" to an extreme degree, it's addictive.
|
| And you do mention this that kids should learn to get a sense
| of moderation, but like other addictive things (hard drugs,
| alcohol and actually porn is supposed to be restricted), we
| keep them away from kids until they're at an age when they can
| handle it better.
|
| also, I personally think spending an entire day watching tiktok
| is just so wasteful, feel like you've lost a 100k brain cells
| by the end of it, blah!
|
| But to each their own.
| tetris11 wrote:
| The 2000s-2010s was incredibly rewarding for curious kids, not
| just because of what was out there, but because of the effort
| required to get such payoffs was high.
|
| The reward of watching porn on the family computer was sneaking
| down the stairs at 3am, hoping no one heard the dialup tone,
| finding the right website, and waiting for the pixels to load.
|
| Later, that moved into bedroom and with faster internet, and
| the result was slightly less pixelated boobs. And it was just
| out there, to be watched.
|
| The internet today is not there to be observed. It's to be
| consumed, and then to stalk you even after you've left. It's
| not even at your fingertips anymore; it's in your bed, at full
| resolution, recommending you products that you actively ignore
| but passively absorb.
|
| At that young impressionable age, the passive inputs are
| definitely the ones to monitor
| miggol wrote:
| You're interpreting this as nannyism with respect to the
| internet as a whole, while I think the pledge is really just
| about smartphones. If kids want to go and watch gore and porn
| on their laptops they should be free to do so.
|
| The smartphone that is always on, always fighting for your
| attention, and always in your pocket has proven to be harmful
| to the development of most children.
|
| > What's more harmful is preventing discovering adaptation and
| self-balancing on their own in the face of endless
| entertainment wish diminishing value.
|
| I really wish kids would still learn self-balancing on their
| own. But the odds are stacked against them in the current age.
| TikTok and Instagram have gotten too good at this, backed by
| teams of scientists and ML models working with passion to fight
| their self-control.
| BeetleB wrote:
| I dunno. Growing up, both my parents and the society did
| moderate (i.e. censor) the content I had access to. As an
| adult, I'm definitely _glad_ that this was kept away from me as
| a kid. I was a pretty reasonable kid, but I 'm definitely not
| confident I would have handled it well.
|
| That having access to (some) of those things was overall
| harmless doesn't seem to be a settled question.
|
| With smartphones, the thing that stands out to me is a survey
| they did of parents. For those who gave their kids a smartphone
| before they turned 16, literally _every_ parent regretted the
| decision (and some of them gave them the phone willingly).
|
| Granted, N was probably not huge in that study, but it's a rare
| study that has no variance.
| edm0nd wrote:
| Agreed its pure nannyism marketing and helicopter parents
| fueling such things.
|
| Tubgirl, Goatse, LemonParty, Ebaumsworld, Rotten.com, LiveLeak
| had some of the most fucked up shit 90s teenage me could find
| and consume. Parental controls on electronics were an
| afterthought nor just didnt exist much then.
|
| Its on parents to get involved if they want their kids to live
| in a safety bubble or like, you know, just have a conversation
| with them.
|
| Honestly the 90s internet was peak internet imo, it was so pure
| and awesome. AOL, AIM, IRC, all the good times had. Captchas
| didnt even exist yet.
| creatonez wrote:
| Seems pretty strange that this eccentric political campaign is
| allowed to flood HN with posts and comments on a near weekly
| basis at this point.
| caseyy wrote:
| This is a bandaid on a bullet hole. The root issue is that tech
| leaders (yes, these decision-makers are real, individual people,
| let's stop diluting accountability!) have forced themselves onto
| us and our kids with tracking, data mining, personalised
| advertising, distortion of facts, dark patterns, addiction-
| forming products, plausible but false AI content, brand-
| compliance, and all sorts of other user exploitation.
|
| The social media/internet landscape as it exists today will
| probably be the smoking of this generation - everyone is doing it
| and many will die prematurely (due to stress, depression, lack of
| motivation and purpose, addiction), or waste so many years of
| their life consuming product that it will be a pretty good
| equivalent for dying early. And while banning the equivalent of
| cigarettes for kids a damn good idea, we definitely need to quit
| scrolling ourselves into a premature grave, too.
|
| Why are _we_ consuming it? Participating in the popular internet
| today shouldn 't be "wait until 8th", but "wait a moment, you
| don't want this in your life, and the people around you don't
| want to deal with you involving them into it second-hand either".
| kawogi wrote:
| > Let's protect the elementary and middle school years from the
| distractions and the dangers of a smartphone.
|
| > ... because of unrealistic social pressure and expectations to
| have one.
|
| Sorry, but I do not agree with the equivalence of a device and
| one of its possible usages.
|
| My kids got their first smartphone at the ages of 5-6. (dramatic
| pause)
|
| When I was younger me and my siblings got a camera, a Game Boy, a
| watch, a walkman, a calculator, a stopwatch and small handheld
| battery-driven games. Later a tamagotchi and whatever was
| trending. Also we were taught to use the phone-booth in case of
| an "emergency". While you do not have to agree that all of us
| needed all of this, nobody would've said to "wait until the age
| of 13" with all of this.
|
| The phone I gave my kids were retired Android smartphones with
| Lineage OS installed. Almost all Google Apps removed or disarmed.
| I preinstalled Apps like: a calculator, camera, a secure
| messenger (Threema), clock, navigation (OSMAnd), a few
| educational games, a paint/drawing app, a calendar and added the
| most important contacts (Parents, siblings, grandparents) to the
| address book. We added more apps over time when we felt they
| might benefit from them.
|
| We agreed upon usage duration and modalities. We mostly moved
| their TV-time towards their phones. We explained how to ask
| before taking a photo of a person.
|
| What happened? My Kids started to get interested in how to
| read/write, used the navigation software during road-trips to
| find the next possible stop to have a break or try to find POIs
| along the road and wait them to pass by. They played with the
| calculator, started to learn English (non-native if that wasn't
| obvious, yet), started to "program" robots, send me "good nights"
| when I was late at work. Call me if they spontaneously decided to
| stay with a friend after school. Take photos during their
| holidays, listen to audiobooks during road-trips. Play with the
| torchlight in the tent.
|
| The older one is now 12. She got access to our family calender
| and contact list, so she can plan her appointments with friends
| around ours, manage her ToDo-lists, make stop-motion videos,
| research all sorts of stuff on wikipedia, gain a very good
| understanding of how those devices work. Learn to take care of
| expensive gears and how it matters to have control over their own
| data and that backups are important. She learns how to manage her
| data plan by moving audiobooks for offline-usage. Also she helps
| her grandparents with all sorts of technical problems they have
| with their phones.
|
| Yes, it's more work to teach a kid how to work with all this
| stuff than just throw an iPhone at them when they turn 13 and say
| "whoa, finally old enough to figure this all out." What could go
| wrong. Sorry, that I'm a bit salty on this topic (and I sometimes
| might not find the right words due to the language barrier), but
| just saying that a smartphone is bad because parents do not care
| for what their kids are doing with the device just feels plain
| wrong to me.
| kcmastrpc wrote:
| I don't see a reason for my children to have smartphones until
| they're driving themselves to their own job and social functions.
| legitster wrote:
| Parent here. This is a LOT easier today than it was 5-10 years
| ago.
|
| For me it _feels_ like there 's been a generation divide where
| younger kids are not as insistent on smartphones as the older
| kids were. Maybe it was covid. But also there's a log of negative
| sentiment even amongst kids about smartphones - that they are
| addictive, encourage anti-social behaviors, and enable bullying.
| "Brain-rot".
|
| Our local school district banned phones during school hours just
| this last year and there has been an overwhelming positive
| sentiment from faculty and kids.
|
| We don't otherwise do things like track screen time. Our kids
| have videogames and computers and tablets. But we're providing a
| dumbphone in late grade school and so far there are no protests
| to get anything else.
| warner25 wrote:
| I've had this same thought. I have younger kids, so we haven't
| yet reached the point of needing to contend with all this (e.g.
| "...but _everyone else_ has an iPhone and Instagram and Tik-Tok
| account... "), and I've been encouraged by what seems like an
| increasingly popular movement to deal with it through
| collective action. It does seem like parents with kids 5-10
| years older went through the worst of it; with society caught
| off-guard and any parent who fought the problem going hard
| against the grain.
| irrational wrote:
| We don't wait. We tell the kids they can have one when they can
| but it themselves. In our experience that usually happens when
| they are about 17.
| kawogi wrote:
| Who will teach them how to (not) use them once they have one? I
| mean things like privacy, phishing, social media risks,
| addiction, subscription fees, etc.?
|
| I think the possession of a device isn't the risk itself.
| Jach wrote:
| The parent has failed if the child can't teach themselves by
| that age. Besides, as you say, it's not so much the phone
| itself -- those risks can be learned or taught separately
| from the phone. (I didn't have my first phone until I was 23,
| but I'm not a tech-clueless zoomer and grew up with message
| boards.)
| jMyles wrote:
| Every single popular / well-funded take on this topic seems to
| focus entirely on quantity, and not at all on quality.
|
| There are many wonderful things for kids - even very young kids -
| to do on the internet, in collaboration / supervision / concert
| with a caring adult.
|
| My now 9yo has been playing games like Monument Valley, Lost
| Sounds, Dragonbox, and the SNES randomizers since he was three
| (maybe two for some of them). And I have no doubt that these have
| been enormous boosts to his cognitive and behavioral development,
| and have given him (and so many kids his age) super powers
| compared to us.
|
| It's one thing to ward off social media and FPSs; it's another
| entirely to suggest that refraining from use of a phone or
| computer is likely to lead to better outcomes.
| ziddoap wrote:
| Indeed, these debates always seem to lack any sort of nuance.
| Probably because it's about children, and it becomes really
| emotionally charged.
|
| Teaching responsible use of technology is, in my opinion, one
| of my duties as a parent. That includes how to responsibly use
| a phone, ideally with the goal of improving my kids life.
|
| I don't allow social media (which, I think is really the core
| of this issue), but I do allow other things like games (in
| moderation, with approval), communication (with approved
| contacts), as a dictionary and thesaurus, as an encyclopedia,
| etc.
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