[HN Gopher] Study: DNA corroborates "Well-man" tale from Norse saga
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Study: DNA corroborates "Well-man" tale from Norse saga
Author : LinuxBender
Score : 108 points
Date : 2024-10-25 15:21 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| inglor_cz wrote:
| On a similar note, we now know of at least two places where
| Norsemen were massacred by the Anglo-Saxons on St. Brice's Day
| (1002).
|
| https://archaeology.org/issues/november-december-2013/featur...
|
| It is always fascinating to see ancient written history
| corroborated by later physical discovery.
|
| It is also a bit chilling to realize how our species resorts to
| mad brutality over and over again. Killing a bunch of random
| Danes in 1002 on the order of the king wasn't any better than
| killing a bunch of random Jews in 1942 on the order of der
| Fuhrer.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| Human walk a fine line. We're not actually civilized but more
| like pets... domesticated. We're house broken to a point, but
| still might bite, shit on the sofa, etc.
| Wytwwww wrote:
| > Killing a bunch of random Danes
|
| We don't really know much but supposedly they were mainly enemy
| combatants (and their affiliates, possibly including their
| families in a less generous interpretation. Although
| considering that the slave trade was a alive and well in Anglo-
| Saxon Britain killing women and children might not have been
| practical).
|
| "Random" Danes have been violently terrorizing Britain for
| centuries, of course indiscriminate murder is always horrible
| but I wouldn't say it's necessarily comparable to what Nazi
| Germany was doing (maybe closer to what the Soviets did to
| Germans when they got the upper hand).
| inglor_cz wrote:
| The analysis of skeletons found at St John's College
| indicates that the slain were a mixture of native Danes and
| youngsters who grew up in England.
|
| Given how murder campaigns usually go, I would be a bit
| surprised if the killers were particularly careful about
| ensuring precise identities of the victims before killing
| them.
|
| Jewish people didn't kill Germans, no, but the Nazi
| propaganda painted them as mortal enemies of the people,
| betrayers, swindlers, modern wannabe slavers: certainly,
| after years of such propaganda, at least some of the Germans
| "bought it" and could justify their participation in the
| Holocaust as a mix of vengeance and national self-defence.
| Dehumanization of victims usually precedes genocides.
| Wytwwww wrote:
| Yes, I mean I'm not trying to justify those events however
| by the standards of the day it doesn't seem particularly
| exceptional (of course again, we only have a very vague
| understanding). Killing the entire male population (since
| in such societies all males above 12-14 were effectively
| treated as such) wasn't that particularly exceptional.
|
| After all most Danes/Scandinavians in England seem to have
| survived?
|
| The Holocaust was an extreme aberration though. Something
| generally unthinkable by the (European) standards of the
| 1800s or 1900s. We can go back another ~500 and even the
| medieval rulers of Spain, Portugal etc. (who expelled the
| entire Jewish and Muslim) populations from their countries)
| would consider outright extermination to be extremely
| appalling.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| The Holocaust was explicitly modeled on the Armenian
| Genocide. Of course, there is a question to which degree
| we can consider the Turks as European. They are sorta-
| kinda "in between" Europe and the more stereotypical
| Orient.
| brabel wrote:
| Hittler admired the American extermination of natives,
| actually, and hoped to do the same in Eastern Europe,
| killing the Slavic people and Jews rather than the Native
| American peoples.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| Killing a bunch of people whose people killed your people,
| whose people killed your people, etc. That's a big part of
| history.
|
| The Jews weren't killing any Germans. That's just a lie. In
| fact, many Jews were Germans, and many Germans were Jews.
|
| A slightly better analogy would how the Germans treated the
| French during WWII, in revenge for how the French treated
| Germans after WWI, in revenge for how the Germans treated the
| French after the Franco-Purssian War, in revenge for how the
| French treated the Germans during the Napoleanic Wars, in
| revenge for ...
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| They aren't actually killing the people responsible though,
| it's always a bunch of random innocent bystanders. People are
| just shit sometimes.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| Sadly, that was the normal consequence for having lost a
| conflict for most of history.
|
| During the holocaust, Nazis killed many German veterans of
| WWI.
|
| Even by ancient standards, that's inexplicable.
| codetrotter wrote:
| > King Sverre's claim to the throne was that he was the son of
| King Sigurd Munn, killed in 1155 CE by his brother. Sverre's men
| were known as "Birkenbeiner" because their legwear and shoes were
| made of birch bark. Among the rival factions were the "Bagleres"
| from southern Norway.
|
| This honestly sounds like such a cool premise for a video game.
|
| Are there any video games based on this saga?
| latexr wrote:
| If you want to play an epic Norse story, give The Banner Saga
| trilogy a try.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Banner_Saga
| analog31 wrote:
| It's a cool premise for a cross country ski race. This is the
| sister race of the similarly named race in Norway:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Birkebeiner
| kreyenborgi wrote:
| Birkebeiner are these days most famous for their ham:
| https://www.matoppskrift.no/bilder/bilder_store/2889.jpg
|
| While the Baglers were reduced to hiding in cozy Bergen
| streets:
| https://www.google.com/maps/@60.400775,5.3239763,3a,75y,37.9...
| yieldcrv wrote:
| 1000 year gap of being able to confirm is wild
|
| Feels a bit existential to me, given that so many people are
| unceremoniously killed with no accountability every day
| arrowleaf wrote:
| Tangential, but anyone interested in literature should read "The
| Sagas of the Icelanders" if they have not already. The early
| Norse and Icelandic sagas are a treasure trove of great stories.
| I think about them nearly every day and it's fun to recognize
| similar plot points in modern novels.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Any good modern English translations of the Sagas that you
| would recommend? On a related note Neil Gaiman's _Norse
| Mythology_ is a great introduction to that topic.
| thordenmark wrote:
| Gaiman's Norse Mythology is quite readable, though it is VERY
| inaccurate. It's better read as an "inspired by Norse
| Mythology" book. Basically, it's fan fiction.
| histories wrote:
| The gold standard of _Icelanders_ Sagas is:
| https://sagas.is/vara.php (love for the little old website).
| It's complete, as it contains all the sagas and tales.
|
| This is a good selection from above:
| https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/53454/the-sagas-of-the-
| icela... (notably missing: Njal's Saga, but that's also
| available separately).
|
| There are more sagas, though. Just not of the Icelanders.
|
| For example the saga of the Volsungs.
|
| If you are interested in general norse mythology then yes,
| Gaiman's book is really nice. The Prose Edda and the Poetic
| Edda are primary sources and not a difficult read.
|
| Everything I mentioned (except Gaiman's) is published by
| Penguin and is a good translation.
| eru wrote:
| https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-njals-saga
| might make for a good introduction.
| ripperdoc wrote:
| LOL, I'm reading Njal's saga right now and this was exactly
| what I needed.
| dkga wrote:
| I really felt this: "Everyone sounds like a minor Lord of the
| Rings character." lol
| markovs_gun wrote:
| Technically everyone in Lord of the Rings sounds like a
| Norse Saga character and this was done intentionally by
| Tolkien, who read the sagas extensively.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| There was also a segment on this on one of the NRP shows over the
| weekend. I don't recall which one. Ideally, someone else will
| know.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| I guess I should ask how we know it isn't just another person
| that fell down a well or was thrown down there? Seems to happen
| pretty often unfortunately.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41532635_Dead_Bodie...
| mattlondon wrote:
| Well they said that the remains were under boulders (which the
| sagas said they threw in after the body), the remains had
| battle trauma which was likely the cause of death, and radio
| carbon dating is spot-on.
|
| Of course that could all just be coincidence, but I don't think
| they are even saying this is for sure 100% the person, it that
| it potentially corroborates the story.
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