[HN Gopher] Hoard of coins from Norman Conquest is Britain's mos...
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Hoard of coins from Norman Conquest is Britain's most valuable
treasure find
Author : ChumpGPT
Score : 157 points
Date : 2024-10-22 23:37 UTC (5 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cnn.com)
| kadushka wrote:
| A thousand year old coin for $1000? That seems rather cheap.
| nlh wrote:
| (Professional coin nerd here)
|
| You'd be surprised! It's all about supply and demand. You can
| get very common Ancient Greek coins from 300 BC (eg ~2300 years
| old) for $50 these days. For example:
|
| https://coins.ha.com/itm/ancients/greek/ancients-phoenicia-s...
|
| Of course you can also get rare ones for $thousands or
| $millions. All about who cares and how many there are.
| hellavapid wrote:
| wonder how much that coin is worth now vs how much it was
| worth in 300 Bc
| kleton wrote:
| Prices in Ancient Greece in Athens in the 5th century BC
|
| 1 loaf of bread 1 obolos
|
| The standard rate for a prostitute 3 oboloi
|
| 6 oboloi are 1 drahma, about 4 drahmai to the shekel. That
| coin is 1/16 shekel, so about 1.5 loaves
| ldx1024 wrote:
| Or half a hooker...
| aegis4244 wrote:
| Yes, but which half ?
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Either bread was expensive or hookers cheap.
| vijayr02 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect
|
| > the tendency for wages in jobs that have experienced
| little or no increase in labor productivity to rise in
| response to rising wages in other jobs that did
| experience high productivity growth. In turn, these
| sectors of the economy become more expensive over time,
| because their input costs increase while productivity
| does not. Typically, this affects services more than
| manufactured goods, and in particular health, education,
| arts and culture.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| This is a really roundabout way of referencing the scene
| in Silicon Valley where he figures out the new algorithm
| while everyone else is having a side conversation about
| how best to manage the conference attendees.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I understand rarity and all, but it's still strange that
| there are US pennies worth far more than these coins. It
| makes sense, but instinctively feels wrong.
| jamesfinlayson wrote:
| I think it's one of those things where people love US
| pennies because it's what they know and or grew up with
| (and possibly got them into collecting) - at least in the
| US. I always got the impression that collecting ancient
| coins like this was much less mainstream than people
| collecting the coins of the country that they currently
| live in.
| Loughla wrote:
| If I was looking for one of those coins as a gift for a
| friend who is very into ancient Greece, where would I go?
|
| Bearing in mind that I know nothing about ancient Greece and
| coins in equal parts.
| jamesfinlayson wrote:
| Do you have a coin shop in your town? If you do they tend
| to have a bit of everything (though most likely a focus on
| coins from the country you live in) and should have a few
| moderately priced ancient coins to choose from.
| Loughla wrote:
| I do, but they do not. I'm the Midwest, small towns, coin
| shops are just very specific pawn shops. They have a fine
| selection of silver and gold new coins. Thanks for the
| suggestion though! I may drive to the nearest urban
| center to look. I hadn't thought of that.
| kombookcha wrote:
| If you want to be sure it's legit, try the site vcoins -
| they have a good selection of shops specializing in ancient
| greek coinage, and they have a good reputation for vetting.
|
| Is there any particular city state / public person your
| friend is fond of? I'd plug that in their search bar and
| see what comes up.
| Loughla wrote:
| Actually that's a really good question. I'll have to
| surreptitiously dig to find out.
|
| And by dig, I mean ask literally anything and listen to
| the half hour lecture.
|
| Thanks!
| wl wrote:
| I would choose another gift. The trade in ancient coins
| encourages looters to dig up ancient archeological sites,
| destroying their value to archeology.
| Loughla wrote:
| Yeah, I get that. I guess maybe I was hoping for a coin
| with some kind of certified providence. Like gems mined
| without slave labor sort of thing.
| mmooss wrote:
| Will the number of coins in the OP cause prices to drop?
| jamesfinlayson wrote:
| I don't think so - hoards like this tend to get found often
| enough and as far as I know the market for these sorts of
| coins hasn't cratered in recent times.
| smolder wrote:
| Yes, exactly. Relative to roman coins there are much rarer
| limited run coins or accidents that have a lot of value now.
| But there are also rare-ish coins that no one cares about,
| like things minted specifically for collectability, say some
| hypothetical, commemorative Princess Diana coin that got made
| and marketed to rip people off who bought into the idea it
| would gain value.
| euroderf wrote:
| The Franklin Mint had a huge business in this kind of
| stuff.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I believe every country has a business like that
| nowadays, or a side-business from the official Mint that
| makes coins. And it's not even about whether it would
| appreciate in value tbh, they are a good medium for
| collecting and encoding important events or celebrating
| something.
| ekianjo wrote:
| How do you know if these coins are legit?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I presume they would come with a certificate of
| authenticity from a respectable source. Also, it's not in
| the interest of an auction house to sell fake coins. I'd be
| much more skeptical if it was on ebay.
| CodeCompost wrote:
| Even in antiquity Lebanese currency is worthless...
| jim-jim-jim wrote:
| I was similarly surprised recently when I found out you can
| legally purchase many ancient artifacts, like lamps, seals, and
| burial items. They're by no means cheap, but they aren't
| priceless treasures either. We've always mass produced stuff,
| and the museums aren't interested in most of it.
| wileydragonfly wrote:
| Trash is cheap
| skipkey wrote:
| You used to be able to get uncleaned late Roman bronze coins
| from the Balkans for about a buck apiece in the early 2000s, so
| I'd guess they'd be maybe $3-5 each now. Then you get the fun
| of very carefully removing the encrustations to reveal the coin
| underneath. You generally ended up with a coin worth about what
| you paid for it, but it was fun.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| You still can. The Balkans is pretty widely known as a major
| center for trafficking looted antiquities, including coins.
| cladopa wrote:
| Supply and demand. In Europe or Asia it is very normal to find
| Gold or Silver coins, because they are Noble or semiNoble
| materials and do not degrade, or do it very little. For
| archeologists is not very valuable.
|
| What is really precious for History is finding materials that
| usually degrade like cloth or wood or iron things from
| thousands of years ago.
|
| An archeologist that finds a gold coin is like: Meh. if he
| finds wood from +2000 years, it will change her life. You will
| see her celebrating like an Athlete winning the olympics.
| bdhdbebebeb wrote:
| So metal detection to search for historical artifacts is legal in
| UK, illegal in Ireland?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I don't know the laws personally, but different nations often
| have different laws.
| scoot wrote:
| Yes, obviously it's legal in England, or the coins wouldn't
| have been found, reported, and ultimately sold, as per the
| article. It's also legal in Ireland.
|
| There are prohibitions and licensing requirements in both
| countries for search of heritage sites, national monuments, and
| other protected sites, and reporting requirements for
| unintentional "heritage" finds.
| amiga386 wrote:
| It's more complex than that.
|
| Firstly, the UK is three separate legal jurisdictions, each
| with their own rules on metal detecting: England/Wales,
| Scotland, Northern Ireland.
|
| Secondly, these rules are not binary legal/illegal, but on a
| continuum of permissiveness. You always need some kind of
| permission. England/Wales is more permissive (where most non-
| protected land can be detected on with the landowner's
| permission) than the Republic of Ireland (where you need state
| approval to use a metal detector anywhere).
|
| Some of the details here: https://detecthistory.com/metal-
| detecting/uk/
| rajamaka wrote:
| Is there any place where metal detection to search for
| historical artefacts is illegal on private land?
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Most countries have similar rules, and that's also the
| standard (rarely prosecuted) view in international law. The
| general rule of thumb is that antiquities belong to the
| state, anything else (like treasure hoards in the UK) is an
| atypical exception.
| switch007 wrote:
| Ireland
|
| "It illegal to use a detection device to search for
| archaeological objects anywhere within the State or its
| territorial seas; without the prior written consent of the
| Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht"
|
| (Note "anywhere")
|
| https://www.museum.ie/en-ie/collections-research/the-law-
| on-...
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| That, to me, implies there's a lot of unfound treasures
| over there... and/or a lot of illegal searching. Assuming
| there's interest outside of archeological value, of course.
| amiga386 wrote:
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/two-
| anonymously-se...
|
| Some good Samaritans sometimes send in Ireland's
| priceless heritage to the national museum. But of course
| they're not going to reveal who they are, or where they
| found it. They don't want to go to prison. So I guess
| we'll never know.
| 7222aafdcf68cfe wrote:
| iirc, it is forbidden in Sweden, except if you secure
| government permission.
| ascorbic wrote:
| In the UK, if the site is a scheduled ancient monument then
| you need permission to even dig a small hole.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Certain artifacts are "treasure" regardless of how you find
| them: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thousands-more-
| treasures-...
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| One wonders if they are worth face value given inflation. It
| would be a fun exercise to figure out their value in pounds
| sterling and then calculate what that number would be in the
| present.
|
| That said, my kids and I buried 50 copper coins in a forest in
| the sierras, perhaps a thousand years from now the aliens
| visiting our dead planet will find them. :-(
| freeqaz wrote:
| It's have to be deflation for them to be worth more. The only
| thing here that would be the equivalent would be the value of
| the silver. I'm _guessing_ that the silver is worth like 1% of
| the valuation (from looking at the photos). Doesn't seem like
| it's 2500 kilos of silver (~$1100 per kg at current prices)!
| fngjdflmdflg wrote:
| >The only thing here that would be the equivalent would be
| the value of the silver
|
| Not necessarily. A lot more silver has been mined since the
| Norman Conquest (for example in the New World, but also in
| the Old World) which increases its supply. The demand for and
| utility of silver in general has also changed since then.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Have you done any comparative economics? That is where you
| take what it "cost" in terms of money for goods or services
| at a given time and compare that to the cost of the same (or
| equivalent) goods and services in the present time. Some
| things like property ownership won't work because the rules
| changed so much between then and now but meals? Etc? might
| work.
| eru wrote:
| It depends a lot on the basket you are choosing.
|
| Picking the 'BigMac index' might be fun, ie you try to
| price a Big Mac. (Since the Big Mac doesn't contain any
| tomatoes, you could probably have made a reasonable Big Mac
| clone in the Middle Ages.)
|
| It gets ridiculous, if you go by the price of eg the amount
| of computation a human can do in a year. Or 'ice cubes in
| the height of summer'.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| The sesame seeds in the bun would be a trade good. And
| there are tomatoes in the special sauce.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I could certainly see that. Now I'm wondering what
| someone would have bought with these pennies when they
| were actually coin of the realm.
|
| Edit: per an up level comment, 15 chickens or half a
| knife? Hmm, chickens are easy the knife isn't. (wide
| variability in knife pricing). Given that the
| 'collectible' value has increased beyond the monetary
| value.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Why would our planet be dead in 1000 years? And why did you
| decide to have children if you believe that?
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Just how long are you expecting their children to live?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| That's a bit of a reach. Nihilism / pessimism about the far
| future doesn't mean people just give up their current life.
| leeoniya wrote:
| > perhaps a thousand years from now the aliens visiting our
| dead planet will find them. :-(
|
| aliens will likely find us the same way we find dinosaurs but
| probably no one will find us. 1000 years from now things will
| be very different but i suspect humans will still exist. imo we
| as a species have very little chance of living 1M years, tho.
| eru wrote:
| Change is perhaps accelerating, especially since the
| invention of agriculture, writing and more recently the
| Industrial Revolution.
|
| Eg nowadays almost everyone has the 'modern overbite', ie the
| top front teeth extend in front of the bottom front teeth.
|
| See eg https://nextnature.org/en/magazine/story/2013/did-
| forks-real...
|
| The article explicitly blames forks, but people in Song China
| had a modern overbite long before Europeans invented forks.
| See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overbite#Changing_human_den
| tit... and https://petermorwood.tumblr.com/post/181554755777/
| deadcatwit...
| Mistletoe wrote:
| What could we do to increase our chances of lasting 1M years?
| I think it's a useful thought experiment for thinking about
| what we could change to increase our chances.
|
| I do disagree with you though and think humans are like
| cockroaches now and there is a 0% chance of exterminating
| every last one of us and that's a good thing. Nature had its
| chance at several bottlenecks in the past and failed.
|
| >One of the greatest human bottlenecks occurred between
| 930,000 and 813,000 years ago, when the human population was
| reduced to about 1,280 breeding individuals for 117,000
| years. This bottleneck may have brought human ancestors close
| to extinction.
|
| https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq7487
| leeoniya wrote:
| > What could we do to increase our chances of lasting 1M
| years?
|
| honestly? get the population down. this means less
| consumption on an industrial scale and letting vital
| ecosystems recover. i can't imagine a good way of
| voluntarily cutting the pop by 50% and keeping it flat
| afterwards, but famine would do it.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| These "silver pennies" are worth $2000 each, according to a
| comment on the page, while a current UK penny is about $0.01.
| gsck wrote:
| 1 penny = 1 penny, truly extraordinary
| erehweb wrote:
| From a comment on the article:
|
| "There's a page at Regia Anglorum that tries to give some
| examples. The "d" indicates a silver penny. It [a silver penny]
| might buy 15 chickens, but it also might only buy half a knife
| (because metal is rare in comparison to chickens and requires a
| bunch of skilled labor to work it.)"
| crtified wrote:
| I'm sure there are portion of us for whom this treasure trove
| recalls fond childhood memories of reading Dahl's short story The
| Mildenhall Treasure, a creative account of real events in 1942
| surrounding the controversial finding of a huge cache of 4th
| century Roman silverware - one of the other great historical
| hoards dug up in modern Britain.
| normie3000 wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mildenhall_Treasure
| e63f67dd-065b wrote:
| > For the group of seven metal detectorists who discovered the
| 2,584 silver pennies in the Chew Valley area, about 11 miles
| south of the city of Bristol, it marks a lucrative windfall since
| they will pocket half that sum. The landowner on whose property
| the coins were found will receive the other half.
|
| I'm curious how this arrangement came about; is it mandated by
| law? Negotiated on a case-by-case basis? Is 50/50 the "standard"
| split?
| stevenwoo wrote:
| Yes, it's enshrined in UK law so that museums get opportunity
| to buy detectorists' finds.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996
| hnburnsy wrote:
| From the article...
|
| >A hoard of Norman-era silver coins unearthed five years ago in
| southwestern England has become Britain's most valuable treasure
| find ever, after it was bought for PS4.3 million ($5.6 million)
| by a local heritage trust.
|
| Different article about the discovery of the Sutton Hoo
| treasure...
|
| >The exact value of the Sutton Hoo treasure isn't widely known,
| in part because the items in the treasure have never been up for
| sale. They were donated to the British Museum by Edith, and have
| remained there ever since. Typically, the items are described as
| "priceless," suggesting that their value to the museum and as
| historical artifacts makes them incredibly valuable.
|
| >Given their historical significance, it's easy to imagine that
| the value of the items in the treasure would be valued in tens or
| even hundreds of millions of dollars.
| arethuza wrote:
| One of the Lewis Chessmen is in private hands and was recently
| sold for PS735,000!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen
| yieldcrv wrote:
| > They were donated to the British Museum by Edith,
|
| so they got a tax deduction at a completely arbitrary value,
| valued in a private document of an appraiser nobody has ever
| seen, and have just been rolling forward the tax deduction
| against their current year's tax liability for all eternity?
|
| good business.
| zdragnar wrote:
| And now everyone gets to benefit via the museum rather than
| letting it hide in a private collection.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| yes, but when compared to the US tax laws, that incentivize
| the same thing at much stricter limits, its not really
| worth saying since its a given
|
| the US has a maximum 30% tax deduction for donated assets,
| while the UK has 100%. they both allow you to carry forward
| that tax deduction where it exceeds your current year tax
| liability. (I was inaccurate earlier, the carry forward is
| 3-5 years in both jurisdictions)
|
| good business to arbitrarily value a piece and make sure
| all publications are unable to come to a value for
| something "priceless"
|
| I don't find that controversial, I think its good business
| and inspirational. If I was in that position I would ensure
| the valuation was favorable
| jnsaff2 wrote:
| Obligatory mention: TV series Detectorists [0].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists
| Lio wrote:
| Great show and I thoroughly recommend it but...
|
| Everyone in it seems to be doing these dodgy "oo ur" West
| Country farmer caricature. I can't think of a single character
| with an actual Suffolk accent.
|
| If I compare to The Dig[1], another great film about finding
| buried treasure in Suffolk[2], Ralph Fiennes nails it[3].
|
| It's like the good ol' days when the BBC used get Rada trained
| actors to put on "Cockney" accents to represent the working
| classes.
|
| 1. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3661210/
|
| 2. Sutton Hoo, a set of long boats commerating dead Anglo-Saxon
| kings. Probably the greatest treasure ever found in the UK.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo
|
| 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8yri1nejc
| jfengel wrote:
| It's great that The Dig nails the accent. Unfortunately, its
| _history_ is not very good, especially in its portrayal of
| the women involved.
| Lio wrote:
| Oh yeah I totally agree, it is highly fictional. I mean
| it's Netflix, so I would definitely treat it as nothing
| more than entertainment.
|
| I'm half surprised they didn't try to work Sutton Hoo's
| proximity to the Rendlesham Forest Incident in there to
| spice things up with an alien landing[1]. It's literally
| just over the road.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident
| gausswho wrote:
| The article's image of the hoard shows, off to the sides, various
| coins that look sliced in half. Did this modification occur to
| coins during this time period? Did the coins remain valid but
| half their value? If so, how many times could a coin be
| subdivided?
| almost wrote:
| Coins used to be largely worth what they were worth because of
| what they were made of. So cutting them in half would lead to
| two seperate halves of the value. I'm sure there's more nuance
| than that but broadly I think that's how it used to work.
| mapt wrote:
| This is not so much a gradual change, as a recurring theme in
| coinage through history, with the stability and grasp of a
| regime/kingdom/empire being related to how much seigniorage
| (profit) it can currently extract from the economy by putting
| the leader's face on a costly bit of metal. This may be from
| one of many periods where the old coinage of an obsolete
| regime reverted to holding negligible value over its metal
| value.
| empath75 wrote:
| They specifically minted coins with a cross on the back to make
| it easier to split into halves and quarters.
| sevensor wrote:
| Why are they so shiny? Did someone clean the tarnish off?
| wrp wrote:
| My first reaction to news of these discoveries is a twinge of
| grief, thinking about the poor sod who didn't make it back. Take
| the Lewis chessmen. He was probably a guy just trying to make a
| simple business importing chess sets, and someone whacked him.
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