[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Escape from TCR? Family shared SMS
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Ask HN: Escape from TCR? Family shared SMS
My wife is a bit particular and when we moved in together want
there to be a household phone. So we signed up with a VoIP service
and things worked. When we bought a home together, life got more
complicated. There were utilities, contractors, service people,
deliveries, etc. One day we realized that some of these folks would
frequently send texts to our house number instead of calling, which
we would never receive. So we upgraded our VoIP service/plan with a
SMS option, and it was great. We could both just keep up to date on
all the various things and either of us could respond as our
schedules allowed, on any of our devices. We could even send images
as MMS would allow to make communication clearer ("See this is
exactly where things are going wrong", etc.) And as with many
things in life, human nature has pretty much ruined it. To combat
SMS spam, as far as we can tell, all business SMS usage needs to be
approved through https://www.campaignregistry.com/ now. And recent
years, it has been brought to our attention that the service we are
paying for is really intended for businesses. We are increasingly
hitting weird blocks on messaging due to being grandfathered in
before TCR. It has gotten to the point where we are on the verge of
registering a business just to keep our functionality. Except even
just having a registered business may not be enough because TCR
requires all kinds of detailed information about your business and
its practices. So we are at a bit of a loss what else to do here.
We could concede and one of us gets the responsibility of the
"designated" cell phone number to handle everything household
related. It is further complicated by my being an Apple fanboi and
her a Windows/Android zealot. If we both used Apple devices we
could maybe finagle something out by buying a dedicated iPhone for
the house number and then take advantage of the cross-device
Messages interoperability. There is Google Voice, and even ignoring
my dislike for them, I don't feel they can necessarily be trusted
not to drop the product or ban us for arbitrary reasons.
Additionally, when it comes to actual phone calls, while Google
Voice can forward calls to a number, I am not aware of any option
to use it directly with regular handsets like many VoIP providers
offer. Are there really no companies in this space serving
personal users? If not, that would be an excellent business niche
for the entrepreneural folks in the audience.
Author : tcrhelpforsms
Score : 23 points
Date : 2024-10-26 15:15 UTC (7 hours ago)
| basch wrote:
| simplelogin for sms is definitely a space lacking in the consumer
| product market.
|
| family home management and communication routing in general is a
| blank space with almost nothing. it extends into every market.
| childrens medical bills only appearing in one of two parents
| accounts etc. communication from an entity to a family is ripe
| for disruption and standardization.
|
| have you looked at business support tools such as
| https://missiveapp.com/blog/what-is-sms-shared-inbox
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I believe I had come across Missive while investigating. I will
| admit I haven't tried signing up. But given that it is marketed
| towards businesses, I expect as soon as one does they'll
| require you to provide all the information you would need to be
| registered as part of TCR. If this is incorrect, let me know
| and I'll dig deeper.
| pushcx wrote:
| Google Voice will also be unworkable for your needs. More and
| more businesses prohibit customers from using anything except a
| cell phone number from a major carrier or MVNO reseller, perhaps
| assuming anything else is criminal activity. Customer service
| agents are never trained about this, so they'll say a number is
| "invalid" or "voip" (regardless of the actual service used) and
| cannot be used.
| turtlebits wrote:
| I still use GV and have only run into a few services that won't
| take my number. None are critical, I just don't use those
| services.
| ewoodrich wrote:
| Mostly the same for me. But man it is fun discovering that an
| anti-VOIP check was added to a service _after_ I had already
| associated my GV number years earlier. And now every single
| text 2FA prompt is sent directly into the aether.
|
| Luckily that's only happened twice in 4+ years and both times
| they had an email recovery flow.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Occasionally, I have GV refused for 2FA - but mostly it's
| fine. For Voice and text, GV has been more reliable than
| T-Mobile or AT&T.
|
| Caveat: T-Mobile blocks outgoing GV calls from my handset
| 100% of the time. I have to turn on a VPN to make a GV call.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| TCR is as much a problem as it is a solution. As a pay-for play
| registry, it silently sabotages legit SMS messages from VoIP
| (MNVO, etc) - while allowing plenty of SMS traffic that end users
| don't want.
|
| My phone # is a VoIP that forwards to my T-Mobile cell. SMS
| stopped reaching my phone because T-Mobile silently dropped them.
| I now forward them to my AT&T # (as long as I can) and to my
| email.
|
| TCR explainer: The Campaign Registry is an industry-led effort to
| reduce spam, mostly spearheaded by T-Mobile. It isn't fully baked
| and is far too simplistically implemented.
|
| It is supposed to (only) apply to SMS originating from biz.
| However, it is a wide and leaky net that captures both more and
| less than it should.
|
| SMS from biz that pay/register with the TCR are unfettered; they
| can mass message. SMS sent from consumers via wireless carriers
| (like T-Mobile) are similarly unmolested.
|
| But SMS sent from VoIP services (that compete with wireless
| carriers) get interpreted as biz-originated and get dropped
| silently.
|
| Past that, another major issue with TCR is that it doesn't
| meaningfully discriminate between major SMS campaigns and the
| most minimal+routine SMS usage.
|
| My biz clients provide product support to their customers and a
| handful of SMS messages may be involved. Even so, they are
| required to jump thru the same hoops as huge entities that send
| millions of SMS.
|
| Within that context, I found that registering and working with
| TCR was so onerous/expensive that we're 1) ignoring it as long as
| we can and 2) considering workarounds.
| hedora wrote:
| Is there a client-side way to tell if an SMS is sent via TCR?
|
| If so, I'm guessing a good chunk of the US would pay for an app
| that silences the notifications and auto-responds STOP.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Is there a client-side way to tell if an SMS is sent via
| TCR?
|
| The TCR is a list that wireless carriers use to decide if
| they'll let a SMS message proceed or not.
|
| I doubt the message itself indicates that it was weighed
| against the TCR list (it would require modifying the
| message).
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| Yeah, this isn't like e-mail headers where different hops
| in routing will insert additional information.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| Yes, I should have perhaps more clearly stated that while the
| ostensible goal of TCR is reduce spam, it is at least as much
| about control and rent seeking.
| dzdt wrote:
| What is TCR?
| isntnull wrote:
| The Campaign Registry - here is one place they define it:
| https://www.campaignregistry.com/privacy-policy/
| systemz wrote:
| Dumbphone and number from standard cell provider seems like a
| simple fix. No iOS or Android necessary.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I suspect you are misunderstanding the use case here. If I am
| understanding you correctly, you are proposing solution using
| single phone. As such, only one person can have the phone with
| them at any given time.
|
| Also, a dumb phone doesn't really help with the need for SMS
| and MMS.
|
| Update: I had indeed misunderstood and the proposal was to use
| a cloned SIM and two phones with dual SIM support. However, as
| discussed deeper in the thread this still seems to have flaws.
| systemz wrote:
| Yes, I was suggesting just that. In that case, at least in EU
| there is an option when one number can be used on more than
| one SIM card. Then using second SIM slot on both phones you
| have access to that number. Incoming SMS goes to both number
| I think. Calls can be answered by any phone but faster to
| answer wins.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I have not heard of such a thing in the US, but I will
| investigate.
|
| So while that would work for calls, does that also behave
| as expected for SMS and MMS?
| systemz wrote:
| What I remember from my case few years ago, incoming SMS
| were handled to both SIMs. Outgoing SMS from my number
| didn't appear on second one (so shared SMS history isn't
| complete in that sens). I didn't use MMS. I think all
| those behaviors can be different, depending on provider
| config.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| Okay, that is a problem then. If both phones cannot see
| all messages, how would both parties have full context on
| the conversation? This would inevitably lead to both of
| us sending a response.
| hluska wrote:
| It works in many providers in Canada too.
|
| Our mobile networks just recently upgraded from two tin
| cans and a really long string so I feel like if we support
| it, it must be pretty close to universal.
| hluska wrote:
| No, you can multiple sims in one phone, at least in the Apple
| world. iPhone has supported dual sim since 13 and eSIM
| forever. I don't know about Android but I'm sure you can
| research that with a search like "{ your partner's device mfg
| + model } and dual sim support".
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I'll investigate this, but I'm kind of surprised this use
| case would be even allowed? How does this wind up being
| different than a SIM cloning attack?
| hluska wrote:
| I don't understand your question. One is an authorized
| user and one isn't? That is the opposite of an attack.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| Okay, let me explain it a different way. Much like TCR is
| in principle supposed to be about blocking phone spam,
| wouldn't it just be a matter of time before cell
| providers start cracking down on cloned SIMs with the
| intention of preventing criminal activity? Whether you
| cloned the SIM for legitimate use or not.
| hluska wrote:
| This is likely phone provider dependent and might be a real pain
| in the butt, but what if you shared the "home" line between your
| two mobile devices?
|
| iPhone has supported dual sim since 13 or sim + eSIM for a very
| long time. I have absolutely no idea about Android.
|
| It doesn't fix spam but I'm not convinced humans will ever win
| that war.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I suppose I should have been clearer, while I don't like spam,
| the issue is that TCR is about much more.
|
| There was some discussion about dual SIM solutions with a
| cloned SIM in a different thread. But even ignoring the
| potential for incurring our carrier's wrath, with not all
| messages will be available to both parties, it doesn't meet the
| minimal functional requirements.
| YZF wrote:
| I'm also on VoIP (in Canada though) and didn't even realize you
| could get SMS to VoIP. Annoyingly many 2FAs use SMS (which isn't
| really that secure) and don't offer any other options. Banks,
| credit cards, etc. Another problem is travel where you can get
| your credit card declined and can't get the SMS. Over-aggressive
| anti-fraud AIs.
|
| <joke>curious where you and your wife stand on tabs vs.
| spaces</joke>
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| I think that may have actually been the exact original
| motivating use case. That the bank kept trying to send 2FA
| codes. Though I recall that may not have worked at first as our
| provider was probably still classified as not being a valid
| destination.
|
| I'd need to check, but I'm on team spaces and I think she is on
| team tabs.
| Sytten wrote:
| Personally been using anveo.com with a small GCP cloud run [1] I
| made to forward SMS to my email. It is the only provider I found
| that is allowed for 2FA most of the time. I think it is because
| its numbers are not in the VoIP range.
|
| [1] https://github.com/Sytten/AnveoSMS
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Anveo: Forwarding SMS to email is solid. Forwarding SMS to non-
| T-Mobile numbers still works.
|
| Anveo used to forward SMS to T-Mobile numbers but stopped last
| year (due to T-Mobile+TCR).
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > We are increasingly hitting weird blocks on messaging due to
| being grandfathered in before TCR.
|
| AFAIK, being grandfathered in before TCR isn't a thing. The
| blocking is inconsistent because the enforcement is inconsistent.
|
| TCR enforcement (filtering SMS) is done by carriers who choose to
| use it on their services.
|
| Primarily, TCR lists are used by wireless carriers, to filter SMS
| messages before they reach handsets. Primarily, that carrier is
| T-Mobile.
|
| TCR is mostly a T-Mobile effort and they are it's largest
| enforcer. I have a T-Mobile number and a VoIP number.
|
| I used to have SMS to my VoIP be forwarded to my T-Mobile - until
| T-Mobile began dropping 100% of those messages.
|
| I have a dual SIM phone and SMS are now forwarded to my AT&T
| number. For now, they're arriving. If that stops, I'll have them
| forwarded to my Google Voice number.
|
| I don't know if AT&T or Verizon currently utilize TCR filtering.
| They may, somewhat. If not, I'd guess they will but won't fully
| adopt T-Mobile's model.
|
| It should be noted that VoIP providers are a primary competitor
| to T-Mobile; I am not at all surprised T-Mobile would single them
| out. It fits with T-Mobile's other anti-competitive practices -
| like blocking Google voice calls from handsets (ex:mine).
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| To clarify on "grandfathering": our use of the service predated
| our provider's involvement with TCR. Any new accounts created
| with the provider now requires you provide complete information
| on your business and its purpose to qualify for the product. As
| our account existed before that time, and they still wanted to
| take our money, they didn't cancel our account. Yet.
| robhlt wrote:
| You could use a call/SMS forwarding app on an old android phone.
| I haven't used any myself, but I know they're popular with small
| businesses.
|
| Basically just get an old android phone, put a prepaid SIM in it,
| and leave it charging at home somewhere. The app will forward
| calls/texts to any other number(s) you choose.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| Forwarding is only half the requirements here though. Sending
| responses from a different number will generally lead to
| confusion, and further messages from the sender will not
| necessarily be shared. Though maybe if the sender is savvy
| enough with group texting it might work out okay.
| agwa wrote:
| https://jmp.chat/ has worked well for me. SMS is delivered over
| XMPP, and phone calls use either XMPP or SIP (I use SIP). They
| use person-to-person routes for SMS so none of the TCR BS
| applies.
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| This actually looks quite promising! Thanks!
| c22 wrote:
| VOIP <-> GSM gateway?
|
| https://www.voip-info.org/voip-gsm-gateways/
| tcrhelpforsms wrote:
| That also looks quite intriguing as well. Though perhaps a bit
| more industrial than I might need, there is definite potential.
| I would need to investigate which have more friendly user
| interfaces. While I might be hip to using "AT commands" to
| "Send/receive batch SMS up to 300 characters", my wife would
| perhaps not find that amusing.
| ruthmarx wrote:
| Get an old $50 android on ebay, signup for ultra mobile which is
| like $2 month for 100 texts and 100mb of data, and then via
| software have it relay the message both your self and your wifes
| Android phone.
|
| You can leave the cheap phone plugged in at home all the time and
| both of you will get any texts that come to the phone. You could
| set it up to reply to your phone and have it forwarded also.
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