[HN Gopher] Why ghosts wear clothes or white sheets
___________________________________________________________________
Why ghosts wear clothes or white sheets
Author : samizdis
Score : 52 points
Date : 2024-10-25 13:10 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (theconversation.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (theconversation.com)
| akhileshwar09 wrote:
| Ghosts maintain some procedure too..like we humans wear clothes
| ..maybe they have feelings
| krapp wrote:
| Ghosts aren't real, but the folklore around them has to conform
| to acceptable societal norms, particularly in the context of
| Victorian era Britain where the cultural template for most
| Western ghost stories originates, so ghosts have to be depicted
| with the necessary modesty unless offending that modesty is an
| intentional theme.
|
| Also, clothes are useful for signaling a "ghost's" identity and
| status.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Is the imagination real? Is it made of fermions or bosons?
| adzm wrote:
| Imagination is real; imagined things are not necessarily.
|
| Imaginary numbers are also not real.
|
| The whole situation is quite complex.
| smhenderson wrote:
| I know funny isn't really the goal for comments around
| here but man that made me laugh. So subtle and obvious at
| the same time and quite an appropriate response to the
| posed question!
|
| Complex indeed...
| jallasprit wrote:
| To tack on to the amount of complexity; your brain's
| operation allows you to perceive a world outside your
| brain, but the actual perceiving of it happens inside
| your brain, which again rests inside the perceived world
| more or less..
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Real gets complicated when human minds are involved :)
| nkrisc wrote:
| "Real" in the sense it exists within your mind, which
| exists (somehow) within your brain, which is itself likely
| real. So your imagination must have some physical basis,
| but it would exist entirely within your brain (or body, to
| the extent the rest of your body influences the brain
| itself).
|
| Your brain imagining a specter in a doorway does not mean
| there is any anomaly within the physical space of the
| doorway at all that anyone else could perceive or measure -
| they would need to measure your brain to (theoretically)
| detect the physical basis of it.
|
| What you see, feel, hear, taste is an _interpretation_ of
| your physical environment, and may not accurately reflect
| it at all times.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Are fields physical in your explanation?
| InDubioProRubio wrote:
| Maybe its a remnant of the classic geeks- dressing in togas -
| with the person itself invisible?
| LtWorf wrote:
| From the times of jesus throughtout the middle ages there
| was no coffin, people were buried in a sheet
| musicale wrote:
| > a remnant of the classic geeks
|
| Those ancient and respected forebears of the modern geeks.
| xattt wrote:
| Are ghost clothes made from ghost cotton? Or is there a
| mystical alteration process to convert human clothes to those
| that ghosts can wear?
|
| Jokes aside, I am wondering if cynicism and humorous over-
| analysis is a recent phenomena, because the general
| population is more educated/have basic needs met than those
| in Victorian times.
| harimau777 wrote:
| An important principle in folklorists study of legends
| (which many ghost stories fall under) is that the legend
| cannot be separated from its telling. That means that
| telling legends is generally a group process. For example,
| after someone tells a legend someone else might speak up to
| add some details that they heard; only to be interrupted by
| someone to contest a point, and so on. I suspect that in
| that framework there have always been people who play the
| role of the skeptic who provides alternative
| interpretations or the practical joker who makes light of
| the story.
| krapp wrote:
| This is what happens when people still have a desire to
| believe in a metaphysical reality, but want to reconcile
| that with their understanding of physical reality. It's
| assumed that ghosts are real actual disembodied spirits of
| the dead because belief in them serves a cultural need, but
| in a modern society not entirely governed by magical
| thinking, such beliefs don't seem practical enough to be
| comforting. The attempt to move past "superstition" and
| ground the supernatural in science was the driving impetus
| behind the spiritualism movement (that and grift.)
|
| You see the same incentives in the modern day with Biblical
| literalism and flat earth, and UFO folklore where
| "ultraterrestrial" and "interdimensional" theory shows up.
| It seems like science if everything you know about science
| comes from Reddit and TikTok but it's really just three
| space goblins stacked in a lab coat. Three because, of
| course, three is a sacred number.
|
| There's no explanation for why ghosts wear clothes that
| isn't less ridiculous than the obvious, that it's because
| we imagine people wearing clothes, and ghosts are imaginary
| people.
| knodi wrote:
| clothes are reflection of the of the mind imagining the ghost,
| not due to ghosts fashion sense.
| Izkata wrote:
| There's another theory I've heard that goes more into what ghosts
| are, that isn't in the article: They're not spirits, but more
| like an imprint on reality. This would also explain why so many
| just repeat the same actions over and over, and to some extent
| not just clothes but other things that appear in a ghost-like
| form they'd interact with. The one missing part of this theory
| is, it should be possible to create such an imprint with someone
| who is still alive.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Tape_theory
| margalabargala wrote:
| The second missing part of the theory, is the lack of existence
| of its subjects.
|
| It's not a theory, just detailed, more self-consistent fiction.
| Like Tolkien's very detailed descriptions of elves.
| musicale wrote:
| If it is consistent with a set of axioms, then it is a
| theory.
| margalabargala wrote:
| Consistency with a set of axioms is necessary but not
| sufficient for a theory.
|
| From Wikipedia: In modern science, the term "theory" refers
| to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of
| explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with the
| scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by
| modern science.
| derbOac wrote:
| > The one missing part of this theory is, it should be possible
| to create such an imprint with someone who is still alive.
|
| I've read of this idea, it's traditional in some cultures, I
| just don't remember the name of it. I think it's cognate with
| ideas of doppelgangers and so forth.
|
| I also think there's often an implicit assumption that whatever
| it is that causes the "imprint" can only reach a certain
| necessary magnitude that is commensurate with death or dying.
|
| I feel obliged to note this is not my own perspective on things
| at all, although I admit I like reading about and thinking
| about these things sometimes as a kind of psychosocial
| phenomenon, and think it's worthwhile to engage in metaphysical
| discussions sometimes just as a kind of check.
| mrob wrote:
| In Japanese folklore there's the concept of "ikiryo"
| (literally "living ghost"):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikiry%C5%8D
| anotherhue wrote:
| Easier to do optical illusions / alpha blends with white clothes
| too, so I suspect that tech furtherd the practice.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper's_ghost
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_compositing
| wrp wrote:
| I've only read lightly on the historical literature of ghosts,
| but I think TFA has some basic misconceptions. Through most of
| history, ghost sightings appeared to be of regular people, with
| the witness only realizing later that it was a ghost. The
| conception of ghosts having ethereal appearance appears to have
| become widespread in the late 19th century.
| adzm wrote:
| Homer describes them as a vapor or smoke I believe
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| Roman writers used "umbra" or "shadow"/"shade" as a word for
| specters, phantoms, ghosts, etc. They had many other words,
| too, but this is probably closest to how dead apparitions
| were physically perceived.
| derbOac wrote:
| I remember some tradition that Roman ghosts were often
| associated with or seen as blue for some reason? That's
| only my fuzzy and likely incorrect memory though, from when
| I was studying in college. I have a memory of a play or
| piece of literature where a candle flame turns blue and it
| was meant as a cue to what was about to happen.
| tiahura wrote:
| skia - shade / shadow
| edflsafoiewq wrote:
| The Witch of Endor described Samuel as a "god" coming up out
| of the earth in the appearance of an old man in a robe.
| conception wrote:
| And in the 19th century with the advent of cameras and their
| "ghosting" of images with people moving.
|
| See also the rise of
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasmagoria in the 19th.
| woleium wrote:
| I read that they fade over time. A famous one was a lady in red
| who appeared in a castle in the UK. Over a couple hundred years
| of sightings the color if her dress faded from deep red through
| crimson then pink then finally white.
| wrp wrote:
| Well, yes, I suppose repeated washings over a few centuries
| would do that.
| wruza wrote:
| Probably dried it on the sun too much.
| robofanatic wrote:
| for me horror movies with ghosts shown as regular people in
| foggy daylight (for example the kid in the original Omen) are
| scarier then the ones that fly at night or have heavy makeups
| with abnormal bodies etc.
| hammock wrote:
| There are accounts of spirits/ ghosts much earlier than 19th c
| that aren't "regular" people.
|
| In Homer's Odyssey (8th c. BC), while in the underworld
| Odysseus attempts to hug his mother Anticlea but is unable to
| do so.
|
| _Thrice I sprang towards her, and my heart bade me clasp her,
| and thrice she flitted from my arms like a shadow or a
| dream..... "'My mother, why dost thou not stay for me, who am
| eager to clasp thee, that even in the house of Hades we two may
| cast our arms each about the other.... Is this but a phantom
| (ghost) that august Persephone has sent me, that I may lament
| and groan the more?_
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_(mythology)
|
| Ancient Romans used "umbrae" (shadows) to refer to ghostly
| spirits, which for me invokes the figures on the wall of
| Plato's cave
| bbarnett wrote:
| I'm always leery of translations like this, as they are often
| translated with the world view of the day.
|
| Interesting regardless though.
| anotherhue wrote:
| > HORATIO A countenance more in sorrow than in anger.
|
| > HAMLET Pale or red?
|
| > HORATIO Nay, very pale.
|
| ~1600
| Cerpicio wrote:
| Great. After reading that headline my subconsciousness is going
| to put a whole new weird spin on my nightmares.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| God likes his thermostat low.
| cesarb wrote:
| If ghosts are the souls of deceased people, unless they were
| nudists, wouldn't they prefer to wear clothes similar to the ones
| they used when they were alive?
|
| That is, instead of "ghost-seers dress the ghost", it's the ghost
| that dresses itself. In fact, that whole paragraph even makes
| sense once flipped that way:
|
| "[...] ghosts dress themselves, automatically, through
| unconscious processes. And so we see a ghost in its usual dress
| because that is the mental picture the ghost has of itself, and
| this choice of garment is most likely to inspire recognition."
| cheschire wrote:
| "Is it really so hard to believe? Your clothes are different,
| the plugs in your arms and head are gone, your hair has
| changed. Your appearance now is what we call 'residual self-
| image'. It is the mental projection of your digital self."
| mionhe wrote:
| Lovely to run across a Matrix quote when you were expecting
| something else. Bravo.
| quietbritishjim wrote:
| I thought the point of the white sheet trope was that the ghost
| (whether clothed or not) is invisible, and so they throw a real
| physical sheet over themselves so they can be seen at all.
| Although, a ghost that's visible but naked would be just as good
| justification.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Might dust coverings be also part of this? Not that those are
| used here, but them being used in some abandoned or less
| frequented locations with slight movements of air could explain
| some imaginery. Peeking from windows for example and seeing
| objects covered in sheets.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I always thought the "white sheet" thing was just about
| representing funeral wrapping. I found it interesting that the
| topic goes much deeper than that.
| binarysneaker wrote:
| Any qualified psychologists in the house?
| crznp wrote:
| Of course ghosts wouldn't appear naked, we can't see beyond the
| veil
| photochemsyn wrote:
| The Japanese ghost stories recorded by Lafcadio Hearn in the late
| 19th century are different:
|
| > "For the face was the face of a woman long dead, and the
| fingers caressing were fingers of naked bone, and of the body
| below the waist there was not anything: it melted off into
| thinnest trailing shadow. Where the eyes of the lover deluded saw
| youth and grace and beauty, there appeared to the eyes of the
| watcher horror only, and the emptiness of death." - Lafcadio
| Hearn, In Ghostly Japan
|
| https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8128/pg8128.txt
| jansan wrote:
| The relationship with Japanese and ghosts are on another level.
| Here in Europe I know nobody who believes in ghosts, but I
| heard so many ordinary Japanese people telling ghost stories,
| from scary to quite amusing ones (how about having a ghost as a
| roommate:) ). That may explain why they are masters in horror
| movies. I was into Japanese horror until I became afraid to go
| upstairs in my own house without switching on a light, just
| like a little child. So maybe it is the other way around: they
| believe in ghosts because the movies are so good.
| sfink wrote:
| Why is the question about clothes? Why not ask why ghosts usually
| appear wearing skin? Or flesh? I guess these days in common
| depictions, clothes > skeleton > peeled > nude in terms of
| frequency. And what about age, or state of injury? It seems more
| commonly reported that ghosts do not exhibit their fatal
| injuries, though again it "happens". Or the big question: why
| should anything be visible at all?
|
| If a ghost is meant to be associated with a spirit or soul,
| there's no particular reason for them to have any form or be
| visible at all. But as an exercise in worldbuilding, they _can_
| be, and their visual appearance can give all kinds of fascinating
| clues about their previous existence or the viewers '. I'd rather
| speculate about _that_.
| neom wrote:
| When I lived in manhattan I was friends with this hippie
| spiritual Buddhist woman who was very into reincarnation, she
| described it as a "glitch in past life memory system".
| Basically something from the history line accidentally
| implanted a memory in the current that manifested as the person
| witnessing a past life component. I always thought that was
| pretty fun.
| charlie0 wrote:
| There is shopping in the afterlife, duh.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Now if we only knew why aliens who've developed the technology to
| visit earth haven't also invented clothes! Maybe there's STEM
| funding for that.
| evanjrowley wrote:
| Ghost sightings can cover a wide range of clothes and that is
| generally because ghosts wear whatever they wore when their
| mortal form died. The concept of ghosts dressed in white gained
| prevalence at a time and place when white linens were rapidly
| becoming common for the average person. The industrial revolution
| increased the supply of white linen clothes, also white linen
| bedding, both at homes and in hospitals. Ghost stories gained
| popularity during this era, which was also a time of growing
| world population and growing deaths in densely populated areas.
| This intersection is why ghostly appearances very much fit the
| description of a nightgown-wearing tuberculosis patient. During
| the Victorian-era in Great Britain, the medical field was
| advancing rapidly, so a keener awareness of life and death
| coincided with customary dress/fashion of the time to produce
| stereotypical images of ghosts and ghouls.
| swayvil wrote:
| Ever see that movie "The Sentinel" (1977)? Ghosts and/or demons
| scurrying out of Hell. Lots of nude ghosts there. White eyes.
| Scary.
| swayvil wrote:
| My small experience with seeing a ghost was that it appeared out
| of a mist. The white sheet could be a figurative way of
| portraying that. But there was a face too, and that stood out
| most starkly. And the gaze, when it fell on me, was electrically
| frightening.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-10-26 23:02 UTC)