[HN Gopher] The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in...
___________________________________________________________________
The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for
first time
Author : SubiculumCode
Score : 270 points
Date : 2024-10-25 03:56 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nih.gov)
| elric wrote:
| It's taken 12 years to get from "this stuff exists in mice" to
| "we now know it actually exists in humans and is not vestigial".
| That seems like a long time. People get brain MRIs with contrast
| all the time, is there any reason why this never showed up?
| Because no one was looking? Or because it's a slow mechanism?
| jhrmnn wrote:
| Looking up "brain MRI with contrast", the biggest difference
| seems to be that in a regular MRI the contrast goes to the
| blood, but here it goes straight to the brain cerebrospinal
| fluid. You need open brain for that, so indeed doesn't seem
| trivial.
| elric wrote:
| Cerebrospinal fluid is produced in the brain, I would imagine
| that the contrast would end up in newly produced fluid as
| well, but maybe that assumption is wrong.
| sithadmin wrote:
| Even assuming that the contrast could show up in newly
| excreted CSF (maybe, maybe not), MRI contrast elimination
| half lives are very short (mostly all under ~2 hrs,
| excepting cases like renal dysfunction), and cerebrospinal
| fluid doesn't replenish particularly quickly.
| NeuroCoder wrote:
| Two things:
|
| 1. Blood brain barrier and CSF should be separate for all but
| tiny molecules. It's why CT angiograms are able to visualize
| distinct vessels. So it is pretty hard to directly interact
| with this sort of thing in vivo
|
| 2. A good chunk of the neuro community have been operating
| under the assumption that some of those mouse model findings
| are mechanisms in humans too. Since we couldn't easily prove
| it, people used a bunch of next best tools with fancy imaging
| that demonstrated it was very likely. On top of furter proof,
| this sort of study allows us to begin pinpointing exactly how
| close our next best tools are at estimating in vivo processes
| without opening up the head.
| jb1991 wrote:
| The main reason is because 12 years ago we didn't have ChatGPT
| to tell the researchers the answer.
| rozab wrote:
| They injected a dye into the cerebrospinal fluid to confirm the
| pattern of diffusion into the brain.
|
| I imagine this procedure would have to be confirmed safe in
| humans first. Also they needed subjects who already happened to
| be undergoing a specific type of brain surgery.
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| There have been a couple of papers [1] that can induce this
| process while awake using particular image patterns as confirmed
| in an MRI. I think the NIH confirmation is running behind in the
| science, independent research is quite a bit ahead of them. I
| came across the paper on this last year and implemented a very
| simple page with the parameters they used [2].
|
| There is a number of disease models that show reduced or no
| glymphatic clearance and as such these people need treatments to
| clear out their brains and these image routines seem to help. A
| lot of people find this pattern extremely taxing to watch
| especially for the recommended number of cycles, you can feel the
| effect on the brain its hard to describe the sensation its a bit
| numbing and the image has the sensation of changing as the cycle
| runs like its a visual trick. You might get left feeling like you
| have been clubbed over the head the first time.
|
| I find it interesting this is one aspect of disease research I am
| looking into and is related to Long Covid and ME/CFS.
|
| [1]
| https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...
|
| [2] https://www.paulkeeble.co.uk/posts/cff/
| kenjackson wrote:
| This is fascinating.
|
| Curious, could seizures caused by strobe light be related to
| the effects of draining of this fluid?
| khafra wrote:
| From the paper, it seems like that the blood flow changes and
| the seizures are both caused by the increased processing load
| in the visual cortex; with the seizures also resulting from
| some faulty wiring in localizing that increased load to only
| the visual cortex. So, more like A->B and A->C instead of
| A->B->C. But I'd bet this visual stimuli is even more
| effective at causing seizures in vulnerable people than an
| unfortunate pokemon episode.
| mikewarot wrote:
| Holy cow.... that's really rough, you weren't kidding.
|
| This is the closest I've ever felt to being a Borg.
| noja wrote:
| For the cff page on Safari, create a bookmarklet to make it go
| pure full screen:
|
| javascript:document.documentElement.webkitRequestFullScreen();
| m463 wrote:
| I think I must have turned off repetitive play in browser.
| wonder if there is an m4v version
| khafra wrote:
| This is some amazing work; and it also raises my belief that a
| Langford Basilisk is neurologically possible by about 25%
| reverius42 wrote:
| Thanks for introducing me to the concept! Just read the short
| story I assume you are referring to:
| https://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/blit.htm
| Karellen wrote:
| Looks like it, according to Wikipedia:
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Langford%27s_basilisk
|
| Just read the story, thought it was very reminiscent of one
| of the plot points in Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash_ (1992)
| - until I noticed the publication date of 1988, 4 years
| earlier!
| evanjrowley wrote:
| You'll also find a similar concept throughout David
| Foster Wallace's _Infinite Jest_ (1996).
| hobs wrote:
| Charles Stross who for some reason posted on usenet about
| it in the wikipedia article uses a form of this to great
| effect in several books in The Laundry Files
| shagie wrote:
| Accelerando : https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
| static/fiction/acceler... Not
| everything is sweetness and light in the era of mature
| nanotechnology. Widespread intelligence amplification
| doesn't lead to widespread rational behavior. New
| religions and mystery cults explode across the planet;
| much of the Net is unusable, flattened by successive
| semiotic jihads. India and Pakistan have held their long-
| awaited nuclear war: external intervention by US and EU
| nanosats prevented most of the IRBMs from getting
| through, but the subsequent spate of network raids and
| Basilisk attacks cause havoc. Luckily, infowar turns out
| to be more survivable than nuclear war - especially once
| it is discovered that a simple anti-aliasing filter stops
| nine out of ten neural-wetware-crashing Langford fractals
| from causing anything worse than a mild headache.
| Karellen wrote:
| (2005)
| rozab wrote:
| I hadn't heard of this one before, it's also similar to the
| crucifix glitch in Peter Watts' Blindsight
| haccount wrote:
| Having read both Blindsight and Echopraxia I have to say
| the most impressive neurological takeaway from the books
| was the ability of my own brain to suspend critical
| thinking for long enough to enjoy the books.
|
| In retrospect the core concept can be paraphrased as:
| Self-awareness and consciousness in pigs is the only
| thing that prevents them from flapping their trotters
| fast enough to fly(to the moon).
| jayGlow wrote:
| I'm not getting your point? the book had some out there
| ideas but the core concept of consciousness not being
| necessary for intelligence seemed fairly reasonable.
| ToDougie wrote:
| Fantastic book. Really made me think in some new ways.
| shagie wrote:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/44964 is also a fun read on
| the BLIT.
|
| I also recommend Different Kinds of Darkness.
|
| https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/different-
| kinds-o...
| shaganer wrote:
| I'm interested to hear your reasons why you think it's closer
| to reality. I don't see why the discovery of the brain
| wastage system would help a brain crash from being possible.
| Edit: Just looked back at the post and that it involves an
| image causing the glymphatic system to react.
| haccount wrote:
| It's possible.
|
| But only for the brains of people with severe or undertreated
| epilepsy of carefully selected varieties. You can trigger a
| potentially fatal seizure by showing them an appropriately
| stimulating image. Which likely was a known concept to the
| author of the story.
|
| For the rest of us the negative feedback along the optical
| axis puts a stop to such shenanigans.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| GenAI images sometimes do this to me. Not anything scary
| per say, but some of the faults make my brain feel weird as
| it tries and fails to interpret parts of the image that
| were "AI smeared".
| altruios wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollough_effect is evidence
| to the contrary. This seems to rewire something outside the
| optical pathway. The effect can last for months. Works on
| almost all brains, no epilepsy required...
| haccount wrote:
| That sounds more like a learned visual effect, something
| quite different from frying the brain of anyone with a
| basilisk.
|
| Experiments with cats(
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1111849/ ), and the
| outcome of patients with strabismus/lazy eye(effective
| blindness on defective eye), suggests that seeing (or not
| seeing) is a learned trait. Which is a few steps removed
| from being a backdoor to epileptic seizures or remote
| controlling heart activity
| altruios wrote:
| Exert from that same wiki page about the anti-McCollough
| effect, I may have the two confused.
|
| Given that AMEs do transfer interocularly,[8] it is
| reasonable to suppose that they must occur in higher,
| binocular regions of the brain. Despite producing a less
| saturated illusory color, the induction of an AME may
| override a previously induced ME, providing additional
| weight to the argument that AMEs occur in the higher
| visual areas than MEs.[8]
| theGnuMe wrote:
| Sure, we know imagery can cause fatal seizures so... yes.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| It seems to have no effect on me.
|
| Am I an outlier?
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| Its very much experimental so we don't know if there are
| people for whom this has no impact, all the people in the
| studies respond so the question is whether your cerebral
| spinal fluid is being pumped around and flushing your brain
| and you don't feel an impact or whether you get no cerebral
| spine fluid movement at all. Someone would need to recreate
| this experiment with you in the MRI to find out which it is.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| What is one supposed to experience or feel? Maybe my
| computer is too slow or my monitor is too small? I used to
| collect gifs that were similar to this just because they
| had a neat visual effect but neither those nor this image
| gives me any kind of experience. If I could find a private
| business that has an MRI I would pay cash to get a full
| body scan and then just a brain scan as I have always
| wanted one but hospitals around me want me to go through
| their _process_ and give me strange looks when I just want
| to pay cash and be scanned. I think it would be interesting
| to see what effect assorted images have. There was another
| type of scanner, I forgot what it was called ... that would
| show a 3D image of the brain during activity and would show
| when parts of the brain that should be responding are not.
| In that study it was used primarily on kids /teens that
| were prone to crime. I can not remember what it was called.
| This was quite some time ago. The patient would have many
| wires attached to their head. It would effectively show
| animated _holes_ so to speak when part of a persons brain
| was not functioning correctly due to physical trauma,
| drugs, etc...
| giantg2 wrote:
| The places that specialize in full body scans will do it
| for cash. I think technically you need a script for any
| MRI, so you may still need to speak with a doctor ar
| their facility first. My understanding is it's more
| streamlined there and will be way cheaper than any
| hospital. If you talk to your primary or can get a
| telemedicine appointment online then they might be
| willing to write you the script and you can go to a local
| MRI. I would avoid the hospital as they are 5x higher in
| cost than my local outpatient imaging facility.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| _I think technically you need a script for any MRI_
|
| I'm in the US. I am guessing a script is the same thing
| wherever you are as what is called a referral here. I
| will ask around. Thankyou for the idea. I will research
| what outpatient imaging facilities are around me. Would
| they use some kind of mirror system to watch this image?
| I can't imagine a PC could be near the MRI.
| wyldfire wrote:
| "script" is "prescription" (here in US and possibly
| elsewhere). Imaging techniques generally require them
| because medicine considers the potential harm of giving
| patients an inconclusive diagnosis or a conclusive
| diagnosis for which there's no treatment. Without a
| symptom to weigh against these risks, it makes some sense
| to consider them as not "over the counter".
|
| But in practice I think you can show up at any imaging
| center and get some kind of "full body MRI" to screen for
| cancer or some other risk. They'll probably ask about
| family history and other predispositions but even if you
| didn't have those they'd still take your money.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I will give that a shot. A family member was a signalman
| for the railroad for over 40 years and got melanoma back
| when there was no treatment for it. Perhaps that may
| suffice.
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| After focussing on the dot for a few seconds the images
| appear to produce a tunnel or other change in effect from
| just images flipping, maybe a moving star. Then when the
| grey image appears you get an after effect of the overall
| image for about a second. Some feel a form of pressure or
| even light seizure sensation in the brain and have
| auditory experience like there was a sound that
| disappears each time the grey clearing screen
| appears.Then afterwards some people feel a bit
| cognitively fatigued, drunk even for a few minutes to
| hours.
|
| It feels odd, its hard to describe it feels like
| something weird is happening in the brain.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Interesting. So I do get the over-shadow effect for about
| 1.5 seconds but I get that from any bright light that
| transitions to a grey background mostly from taking high
| dose benfotiamine, along with lutein and astaxanthin and
| chelated copper as my nervous system was being depleted
| of thiamine due to a dumb self induced issue that I have
| nearly resolved. Maybe I am not a good test subject for
| that reason. Or perhaps my monitor is too bright.
|
| Edit: I reduced the brightness, contrast and changed the
| black mode of the monitor and went through several
| cycles. I still get the over-shadow effect for anywhere
| from 1.5 to 2 seconds but no other effects. Perhaps my
| supplements are interfering or confounding. I guess it
| may be useful to note what supplements the test subject
| is consuming along with dosage to determine if that is a
| confounding factor.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| I don't feel anything either. Not sure why
| amelius wrote:
| Maybe try it again at the end of the workday?
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| I tried it again several hours later, being more tired, and
| on my 22" fullscreen instead of my phone.
|
| Still nothing.
| theGnuMe wrote:
| Try lying down and then watching the screen.
| fny wrote:
| Why do you assume you're supposed to feel an immediate
| effect?
|
| Increased CSF flow aids in clearing metabolic waste,
| distributing nutrients, and reduced oxidative stress. You'll
| feel none of this after a 3 minute session.
|
| A lot of the reactions here reek of placebo.
| mettamage wrote:
| In me, there seemed to be an illusion going on. It felt like a
| tunnel and it felt as immersive as a "dream world" (albeit a
| bit of a boring one).
|
| What I also noticed were the after image effects. A strong blue
| dot every time it flashed and circles divided into 8 sections
| like a star.
|
| This was trippy.
| boringg wrote:
| Noticed that as well. Very trippy
| coxmi wrote:
| Clearing the waste sounds like a good thing, I guess. Haven't
| got time to read the study, but can this have beneficial
| effects to do while awake?
|
| It certainly feels quite strange after watching the prototype
| for 8 cycles.
| feoren wrote:
| Staring at the v0.3 produces an effect similar to something I'm
| able to do trigger manually on command. I've always had the
| feeling that I'm somehow triggering a "flow" in my brain, but I
| have no way to confirm what's actually going on. It's actually
| stronger when I trigger it manually, and it feels like it flows
| down my spine and eventually some weak signal reaches my
| extremities. (Maybe that means it's not CSF after all?) Oddly,
| I do feel like I can think more clearly afterward, but the
| brain is very bad at judging itself, so it's more likely to be
| an illusion than anything real. Anyone else able to manually
| trigger a feeling like this in their brains?
| assadk wrote:
| How have you trained yourself to do that?
| feoren wrote:
| I'm not 100% sure, but it's something like this:
|
| If you try raising one eyebrow or wiggling one ear
| (assuming you can't already do that), you might find that
| you're briefly activating lots of little muscles around the
| target as your body tries to figure out where that's mapped
| in your brain. Once you get the right muscle, you can relax
| the other false positives, and eventually just have the
| single muscle isolated. It's similar in my "brain flow"
| thing: usually a couple random muscles in my head want to
| join in, but I can intentionally relax them and keep the
| "flow" going. A common one is the tensor tympani -- the two
| "muscles" seem to be closely mapped together. If you can
| rumble your ears (manually activating the tensor tympani),
| try initiating a rumble, and then "move" the activation in
| between your ears, right to your mid-back brain. (Again: I
| know there's no actual muscle there, so /shrug). Another
| closely mapped muscle, at least for me, is a small one
| around/under/behind the ears that has a "face tightening"
| effect. It's like there are three muscles conceptually
| mapped to similar brain space: one tightens my
| ears/eyes/temples, one rumbles my tensor tympani, and one
| induces a feeling of "flow" down my spine and through my
| brain.
| shaganer wrote:
| I'm interested in how you accomplish this. I can do something
| along the lines of that by getting myself heated. I actually
| get a hothead and a tingling comes up to my brain like it's
| passing in a channel. It could simply be a sensation rising
| within the brain though, without an actual transport of
| something.
|
| I can focus better after but it doesn't clear my head, just
| use that frustration or anger to become determined.
| feoren wrote:
| I'm not quite sure exactly what I'm doing; it feels a bit
| like tensing a muscle, but that muscle feels like it's in
| the middle of my head, a bit toward the back. Obviously
| there are no actual muscles there, so I'm not sure what's
| actually happening.
|
| If you try raising one eyebrow or wiggling one ear
| (assuming you can't already do that), you might find that
| you're briefly activating lots of little muscles around the
| target as your body tries to figure out where that's mapped
| in your brain. Once you get the right muscle, you can relax
| the other false positives, and eventually just have the
| single muscle isolated. It's similar in my "brain flow"
| thing: usually a couple random muscles in my head want to
| join in, but I can intentionally relax them and keep the
| "flow" going. A common one is the tensor tympani -- the two
| "muscles" seem to be closely mapped together. If you can
| rumble your ears (manually activating the tensor tympani),
| try initiating a rumble, and then "move" the activation in
| between your ears, right to your mid-back brain. (Again: I
| know there's no actual muscle there, so /shrug).
| sithadmin wrote:
| That just sounds like ASMR, which some folks can induce
| without external stimuli.
| hobs wrote:
| I think you are thinking of Frission
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson
| sithadmin wrote:
| No, the prior post's reference to having some degree of
| control over the sensation, plus a prolonged impact on
| mental state makes it distinctly ASMR, as opposed to
| frission which is usually a short-lasting involuntary
| response. [1]
|
| [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6086079/
| cassianoleal wrote:
| Yep, I can do that.
|
| It's similar to the effect of being hit with big news (good
| or bad), and the "sinking" feeling that comes with it,
| becoming suddenly introspective and oddly calm under
| pressure.
|
| At least to me, of course. I have no idea if others have that
| same reaction.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Wow, that is wild. I never would have thought that simply
| watching images would trigger something in the lymphatic
| system. This could have huge implications for multiple
| diseases.
| haccount wrote:
| It is well established that visual patterns affect brain
| activity, this is used in clinical practice by
| neurophysiologists, put on an EEG cap and then do
| checkerboards, check if the activity is normal.
|
| Now the question is if this provocation and resulting CSF flow
| is actually beneficial. Do you spike activity and get a rebound
| attempt at waste clearing due to waste accumulation of the
| neural spike, or is this like a massage for the brain that
| gives you a invigorating CSF dump?
|
| I suspect it might not be a health improving activity. (I also
| suspect that you can get even more CSF flowing if you spin
| yourself at 6G in a full body centrifuge and that this too
| would not be conductive to health)
| llm_trw wrote:
| Fascinating. Can you go into more details explaining what your
| understanding of the paper is? I'm reading it now but I'm not
| familiar with the field.
| shaganer wrote:
| I wonder how this will work with hypophantic and aphantic
| individuals (people with little to no "mind's eye" visual
| imagery), such as myself. Like would the effect still be
| registered the same as anyone else, or would it cause the
| imagery effect to lessen or be ineffective altogether?
| flotzam wrote:
| Very cool! Five minutes of this felt strangely soothing in my
| head, after a few nights of not enough sleep.
|
| Being able to set a max duration would be neat, in case it's
| unsafe to lose track of time and let the pattern run for too
| long?
|
| Classic outdated comment BTW ;)
| setInterval(flickerImage, 250); // 8hz
| bdd8f1df777b wrote:
| When I open the page, the image rotates for about ten seconds
| then vanishes. How do you watch it for five minutes? What did
| I do wrong?
| gertlex wrote:
| As per the first line of the writeup on the page: It
| toggles between on and off every 16 seconds.
| froh wrote:
| give it a bit, it then reappears (as described in the
| paper, btw)
| vardump wrote:
| Isn't that 4 Hz?
| flotzam wrote:
| Exactly, the comment was carried over from V0.1 which set a
| 125 ms timer.
| jmpman wrote:
| I'd like to see if anyone with Fatal Familial Insomnia has been
| treated with this pattern. I expected that insomnia stops this
| glymphatic clearance, and that's what eventually kills them.
| tptacek wrote:
| Isn't it the prions gradually destroying their brain that's
| killing them?
| jmpman wrote:
| I'm not aware of the root cause. I thought they just
| stopped being able to sleep, and the buildup of whatever
| junk in the brain eventually caused death.
| ClearAndPresent wrote:
| Paul's animation wasn't playing at an even rate for me, for
| some reason, so I created two video versions (8Hz and 12Hz)
| with the 16 second on/off period, starting with an off period,
| running for 254 seconds, as per the paper. These versions end
| with an an additional off period, as a 'cool down' from the
| flicker.
|
| Framerate of 24Hz differs from the 120Hz as presented in the
| paper, but here there is no 40Hz flicker attempt so it
| shouldn't be an issue.
|
| Compression may affect the edges of the lines, but downloads
| are enabled.
|
| 8Hz version - https://vimeo.com/1023278230/8ad6db6234
|
| 12Hz version - https://vimeo.com/1023275135/378186db55
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| What is the difference or use cases for 8Hz vs. 12Hz?
| ClearAndPresent wrote:
| My understanding from the paper is there is no difference
| between 4, 8, 12, and 40Hz frequencies on the
| neurobiologcial effects, but I found the 8Hz a bit less
| comfortable than the 12, so I uploaded both.
| criddell wrote:
| Do these need to be full screen with your face close to
| the screen to fill my field of vision, or would it work
| just as well watching it in a smaller window, on an iPad
| or even on a phone?
| lagniappe wrote:
| I stared at the 8hz one, for the entire duration, and I feel
| a calm afterward, however I'm not sure if this is because I
| stopped doing/thinking for a few minutes with measured
| breathing or if it is me noticing the difference now that
| there's a lack of stimuli after the video ends.
|
| What measurements or tests can I do to judge whether
| something is happening, or has happened after watching the
| videos?
| criddell wrote:
| The idea that watching a video triggers some waste clearing
| mechanism is pretty wild.
|
| Makes me think of Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash_ where a
| datafile can be a narcotic or mind virus. Maybe that 's not
| such a crazy idea?
| diggan wrote:
| > The idea that watching a video triggers some waste
| clearing mechanism is pretty wild.
|
| It kind of makes sense. We can look at images of food and
| get a physical reaction like hunger, or look at macabre
| images and feel disgust, or stare at animations for one
| minute and then be affected for many minutes afterwards
| when we look away.
|
| It doesn't surprise me we're still discovering new
| mechanisms for triggering physical reactions in our bodies.
|
| Edit: I do agree it's pretty wild regardless :) Especially
| wild if we're finally discovering mechanisms that have
| useful effects, not just "fun" effects like visual
| distortion.
| sharpshadow wrote:
| Would be interesting to find out if there could be an desired
| effect of this in conjunction with binaural beats.
| tripper_27 wrote:
| Wow! So a visual effect similar to some psychadelic
| hallucinations is associated with brain cleaning!
|
| Also, I've been at concerts where the light show guy seems to
| have reverse-engineered the filters our brains use to process
| raw signal into "images", and could use the lights to create
| just the raw primitives.
|
| A few hours of that and it was like I was learning to see all
| over again, a tune-up/calibration of my visual system.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| It's like the Brown Noise for your brain!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ijI4HjTGkw
| e40 wrote:
| What are you supposed to look at? The center red dot?
| hackernudes wrote:
| The paper says they used http://psychtoolbox.org/ to generate
| the images.
|
| > Psychophysics Toolbox Version 3 (PTB-3) is a free set of
| Matlab and GNU Octave functions for vision and neuroscience
| research
|
| Scientists almost never want to share their code and it makes
| me sad. Why wouldn't they want to make their paper more easily
| reproducible?
| briankirby wrote:
| Thanks so much for creating and sharing this! Could you point
| me to any other independent research in this area? Also, as I
| read related journal articles, I'm trying to understand if the
| 40Hz sound is binaural (with a 40Hz difference between
| frequencies in each ear) or a straight 40Hz pulse (same in both
| ears). It's surprisingly hard for me to get a clear answer. Do
| you happen to have any experience with this or suggestions for
| related resources that might contain the answer? Thanks!
| pedalpete wrote:
| The 40hz visual + auditory stimulation is showing to be
| surprisingly effective in mice and humans. [1] When I first
| heard this, I thought the open-loop nature, and the fixed
| frequency across subjects sounded improbable, but I'm happy to
| be proven wrong.
|
| We work in the neurotech/sleeptech space doing slow-wave
| enhancement which, it is believed, increases glymphatic
| activity [2]. Recent studies have looked at the promise of
| alzheimer's prevention [3].
|
| More links to research papers are on our website
| https://affectablesleep.com/science
|
| [1] - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07132-6 [2] -
| https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/1...
| [3] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10758173/
| sharpshadow wrote:
| "Other studies have suggested that the glymphatic system may be
| most active during sleep."
|
| Not only that but also the right sleeping position is relevant
| here. I don't recall the scientist but he studied primates and
| their natural sleeping position, exactly this position also opens
| up the channels for the cerebrospinal fluid to flush the
| accumulated brain waste.
| lazypenguin wrote:
| Do you recall which position?
| mfro wrote:
| > Glymphatic transport is most efficient in the right lateral
| sleeping position
|
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7698404/ Section
| 3.4.3
| sharpshadow wrote:
| Yes that's the position. Good to see it verified in the
| study. Having a partner and sleeping in the same bed can
| lead to alterations from the optimal sleeping position,
| especially sleeping on the back is not good. Sleeping on
| the back is also one of the main causes of snoring, which
| often occurs in people which have a big belly and can't
| really sleep lateralish anymore.
|
| Sleep quality is important too and one big factor is not to
| go to sleep with a full stomach. Sleep quality will suffer
| because of the active digestion which probably will not let
| the glymphatic transport do it's job properly.
|
| Also good to know that "...low doses of alcohol (0.5 g/kg)
| increased glymphatic clearance...".
| teagoat wrote:
| Is increased glymphatic clearance good or bad?
| pragma_x wrote:
| That's great that there's a way to passively optimize that
| process every day. But it's also bad news considering it's
| contrary to what you need if you have GERD.
|
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10643078/
|
| > A limited number of studies have demonstrated that
| sleeping in the left lateral decubitus (LLD) decreases
| nocturnal reflux in patients with gastroesophageal reflux
| disease (GERD) compared to right lateral decubitus (RLD)
| and supine.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| > Glymphatic transport is most efficient in the right
| lateral sleeping position, with more CSF clearance
| occurring compared to supine and prone [6]
|
| Reference [6] is a study on rats! The authors suggest
| further investigation in humans.
|
| Even though I would bet on this still holding for humans.
| boringg wrote:
| Interesting - whats the frequency - response hypothesis? I don't
| think you would want to do lymphatic drainage everyday unless you
| had a problem with your system (?)
| canadiantim wrote:
| Really shows the slow slow slow glacial pace of science and how
| fragmented the information distribution mechanisms are...
| knodi wrote:
| Or the brain is high complex organ and full of MANY known and
| unknown functions which meet a specific or general need. Don't
| forget, it took us 100k years as human to get here, our current
| understanding of brain. you're being a little harsh here.
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