[HN Gopher] BYD EV teardown in Japan reveals secrets to its affo...
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BYD EV teardown in Japan reveals secrets to its affordability
Author : segasaturn
Score : 59 points
Date : 2024-10-24 18:31 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (insideevs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (insideevs.com)
| chiffre01 wrote:
| TLDR: Economies of scale.
| neilv wrote:
| I would call out design optimizations as distinct, though maybe
| economies of scale helps enable those.
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| Affordable - made cheaply - is equated in this article heavily as
| "better" but that is not always the case. I would still hesitate
| to buy a Chinese vehicle over safety and quality.
| gambiting wrote:
| Nah - I own a Volvo XC60 that was built in China and it's about
| 10x better in terms of build quality than my last Mercedes that
| was entirely built in Germany and creaked like an old horse
| cart, I was in the dealership probably once a month fixing
| various issues with the interior. I've owned the Volvo for 4
| years now and it has had zero issues, no creaks, fit and finish
| is great. So no, I wouldn't be concerned about owning a Chinese
| made vehicle, not in the slightest.
| GenerWork wrote:
| Motor Trend just gave the Lincoln Nautilus - a SUV made in
| China - their award for SUV of the year[0] and noted its build
| quality. While "Made In China" still carries a bad rap, I think
| that's going to change pretty quickly for more luxury goods
| like cars.
|
| [0] https://www.motortrend.com/news/lincoln-nautilus-2025-suv-
| of...
| tln wrote:
| You can and should check euroNCAP or IIHS for independent
| safety ratings if you care.
|
| BYD's 4 model entered in euroNCAP have 5 stars.
| hooverd wrote:
| Heh, that used to be German and then Japanese cars.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| It's generally acknowledged that the Chinese made Tesla's are
| higher quality than the American ones.
| kube-system wrote:
| What does "[insert nationality] vehicle" even mean? Most cars
| are made up of designs and parts that come from all around the
| world.
|
| Any discussion of the topic of product origin and quality is
| always heavily oversimplified.
|
| There are many variables at play here: target marketing,
| design, manufacture, regulatory environment, etc.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| European NCAP has given great marks to BYD vehicles in crash
| tests. Just google "BYD crash test", most of the results come
| from them.
|
| Compared to them, my Wrangler is a square death machine,
| although almost anything is safer than a Wrangler.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| Well-designed off-roaders protect their occupants against the
| kinds of accident that might occur at relatively low speeds
| on rough terrain, with very rigid frames to prevent the
| occupants being crushed when rolling over. That is the very
| opposite design philosophy to most road vehicles, which are
| protected chiefly against high-speed collisions with other
| vehicles. The NCAP tests only cover the second kind of
| accidents.
|
| I don't know whether the off-roading safety philosophy
| applies to your car though, as many SUVs and crossover cars
| are only designed to look the part, and are in fact more
| similar to ordinary road cars in safety design.
| lll-o-lll wrote:
| Clever design with reusable (between models) components. That's
| "efficiency". Efficient design often means _better_ quality.
|
| All countries that get into car manufacture seem to follow a
| similar path. 10-15 years of crap cars while building scale and
| expertise, then maturity with much higher quality. I think we
| are seeing the mature Chinese car industry now and it's frankly
| impressive.
| nothercastle wrote:
| Lots of advantages from labor to financing to government
| subsidies and environmental regulations. It would be nearly
| impossible to compete with that
| torginus wrote:
| Generally I think it's much more useful to link the orignial,
| rather than the churnalism article written about it.
|
| https://cn.nikkei.com/industry/icar/56879-2024-10-09-09-00-2...
|
| Although it's in Chinese, Google Translate can help you out.
|
| The TLDR version is that BYD integrates many components of the
| electric drivetrain into a single sub-assembly, and shares said
| assembly between multiple vehicles to achieve volume cost
| savings.
|
| Which is fine for bringing the costs down, but keep in mind their
| cars have zero repairability, which might be a concern,
| considering the engineers though the components aren't protected
| well enough agains water ingress.
|
| Although, I admit my skepticism might be unfounded. I've owned
| the same car for close to a decade, and I haven't replaced
| anything besides consumables and fluids.
| normie3000 wrote:
| How can multiple vehicles share a drivetrain?
| gambiting wrote:
| What do you mean? Multiple vehicles can use the same electric
| motor and battery, exactly the same as ICE vehicles share the
| same engines across different model lines.
| mikedelfino wrote:
| It was meant to say that multiple vehicles share the same
| drivetrain model, not the same unit.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| I find your reply even more confusing than the question :P
| ClassyJacket wrote:
| They use the same design of part in multiple different
| models of vehicle instead of designing a new one with
| small differences
| advisedwang wrote:
| It means multiple models share the same design and
| components. It doesn't mean multiple individual cars share
| literally the same gears and whatnot.
| torginus wrote:
| From the (translated) article:
|
| _One of the characteristics of ATTO3 is the promotion of
| component integration. In the electric drive device "E-Axle",
| in addition to the motor, inverter, and reducer, a total of 8
| components such as the on-board charger and DC-DC converter
| (DC voltage converter) are integrated. This can reduce
| component costs and reduce weight._
| eptcyka wrote:
| Timeshare.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| I think electric cars need to be simpler. They should be more
| like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. No
| touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. Those
| features should be optional with some trims. They need to be
| reliable and long life to maximize raw material efficiency.
| Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the
| article is lacking much detail.
|
| I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary
| diesel heating system. This would be much more effective than
| electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions (at
| least until we transition to carbon neutral energy
| infrastructure). A gallon of diesel would last for months if it
| was just used for heating the cabin, and it would improve the
| range. It might even be an effective solution for keeping the
| battery at optimal temperatures but obviously a lot of math is
| required here to see if the tradeoff is worth it vs integrated
| battery heating.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc.
|
| We own a Volkswagen e-Up, it's exactly like this. We love it
| too, it's just such a great little car, you can easily get 150
| miles out of its 32kWh battery and it fits everything, has no
| touchscreen, good old buttons for the climate controls and even
| proper analogue gauges for speed and battery level. I will own
| it until it falls apart.
|
| >>I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an
| auxiliary diesel heating system.
|
| I honestly doubt that anyone would like the "convenience" of
| having to fill up the tank for it with diesel every now and
| then.
|
| >>and likely generate less carbon emissions
|
| CO2 - yes. But these heaters(and devices like Webasto etc) are
| hugely polluting because unlike the exhaust from your engine
| their exhaust isn't filtered or treated in any way, all the bad
| stuff goes directly outside.
|
| >>A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used
| for heating the cabin
|
| No, it wouldn't - I own two cars with a webasto and they both
| use about 0.4L of fuel for hour of operation, it's not much but
| it's not insignificant.
|
| Besides, this is a fixed problem - just use a heatpump instead
| of a resistive heater. A 500W heatpump will produce as much
| heat as a 2000W resistive heater.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| I don't understand why your Webasto is using so much fuel. I
| use one to heat my sunroom in the winter and 2.4 gallons
| lasts me several days. A small, insulated cabin should
| require much less.
| gambiting wrote:
| Because it also heats the engine as well maybe? Also I
| guess a car loses heat much faster than your stationary
| cabin because the flow of air around it as you drive is
| very good at taking the heat away. Also there is no
| insulation anywhere.
|
| Anyway, from its spec sheet it says it can actually use up
| to 0.6L/h at full load:
|
| https://www.webasto-
| comfort.com/fileadmin/webasto__media/web...
| neuroelectron wrote:
| Full load is way too much unless you're arctic trucking.
| The lowest setting is plenty for my sun room until it
| gets below 20f or it's especially windy. This uses about
| a gallon in 6 hours.
|
| But you're right, without any insulation, the moving
| vehicle will lose heat much faster. The room has terrible
| insulation but at least it has bare brick for the bottom
| 3 feet which probably retains a lot of the heat. I
| suspect with proper insulation your fuel usage would be
| drastically reduced.
| brewdad wrote:
| OP's rate of usage equates to using 2.4 gallons in about 23
| hours. Assuming you are only using yours during the few
| hours a day the sunroom is occupied, several days sounds
| about right.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| Yes i run it 6-8 hours a day when I'm using the room. It
| really surprises me how effective and cheap it is vs a
| space heater. A solar powered heat pump would be even
| cheaper, I suppose but this solution was only about $200
| to build. I doubt a heat pump would last long enough to
| pay for itself unless i could figure out away to cheaply
| acquire and install it.
| koksik202 wrote:
| The reason we went with 4y old leaf and not brand new e-up
| was that it looked like a coffin made out of matchbox.
| Compared to leaf which is still simple and conventional but
| has much more space to absorb impact and full of safety
| features.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Touchscreens are how electric cars are simpler and cheaper.
| Buttons, knobs, their wirings and linkages are surprisingly
| expensive once you include fully load the cost (ie, wiring is
| often done by hand).
|
| > Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the
| article is lacking much detail.
|
| No, Chinese cars are usually loaded with gimmicks. Even the
| $10,000 Dolphin has two screens.
|
| > This would be much more effective than electric heating and
| likely generate less carbon emissions
|
| Even more efficient is to utilize the waste heat from motors,
| as a proper heat pump system does.
|
| What really kills the range of an EV in the winter is bringing
| the battery & cabin up to temperature at the beginning. Once
| the car is moving, the heat pump can scavenge heat from the
| motor to relatively efficiently heat things. So if you pre-warm
| your car while it's plugged in the range loss isn't too bad.
|
| Diesel heat would prevent you from doing this because you can't
| run a diesel heater in the garage. So ironically, a diesel
| heater could reduce your battery's range even though it doesn't
| use battery power.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| That's a good point but I can't understand how it would add
| up vs servos or other electric air controls vs a manual lever
| that physically opens the baffle. It really doesn't make
| sense to me how an lcd can be less expensive than a bit of
| metal and plastic in a switch but I suppose you're right due
| to economies of scale.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| The cost of the vehicle components is a surprisingly small
| part of the overall cost of a vehicle. The cost of the line
| time and the additional tolerances to fit those cheaper
| components is vastly higher than the cost of stuff they're
| going to install anyway.
|
| Being able to separate design decision timelines on how the
| UI works from manufacturing timelines is also very helpful
| organizationally.
| jsight wrote:
| The touch aspect itself is really cheap. The big benefit of
| screens over "simpler" instruments is that regulations
| actually vary quite a bit across the world. Being able to
| use a screen that can display anything greatly reduces the
| sku count, simplifying supply chains and assembly lines.
|
| It would be hard to justify not using a screen these days,
| IMO.
| tdeck wrote:
| > It would be hard to justify not using a screen these
| days, IMO.
|
| Unless you were concerned about the safety of someone
| having to look at a screen to operate vehicle controls.
| Otherwise you could just make it a smartphone app and
| ditch the screen entirely.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Then why don't all the 3rd world cars use touchscreens?
| sn0wf1re wrote:
| Touchscreens are more expensive than buttons and knobs. But
| screens are required by law in the USA and EU as they
| require backup cameras. And a digitizer is a lot cheaper
| than some buttons and knobs.
| LunicLynx wrote:
| Because building software is hard. If you can do it though
| ...
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| It's happening. The mg3 is very common in the third world
| and has touch screens now in the latest model. They have a
| few buttons on the wheel but the majority of features are
| on the tiny touchscreen in the center. If you see cars in
| the 3rd world without touchscreens they are older models is
| all. Sometimes it just takes a while for the new cheaper
| way to do things to become widespread.
| torginus wrote:
| I think the importance of heatpumps is overblown. If you go
| for a highway trip, your car consumes 10kW+ and 1kW heating
| won't matter much. Additionally, on longer trips the cabin's
| already warm, no need to run the heater that much.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Kinda. Im leqd to believe heatpump is a $50 device that
| manufacturers charge $2k for (must be more to it honestly).
|
| If that saves 10% of range that's 10% less batteries which
| cost more than $50. Eventually all these savings add up so
| much that EV is lighter and cheaper than similar ICE
| vehicle...
| KK7NIL wrote:
| > Im leqd to believe heatpump is a $50 device that
| manufacturers charge $2k for (must be more to it
| honestly).
|
| Turning an AC unit into a heatpump is indeed pretty
| simple, but that type of heatpump doesn't work well when
| the temperature gradient is too high.
|
| What you'd need to heat a car during winter is a "high
| temperature heat pump", which usually requires multiple
| stages, different thermal fluids, etc.
|
| That's a much more complex and expensive system, not well
| suited to vehicles.
| ClassyJacket wrote:
| Where on Earth is a Dolphin only 10,000$ ?
| segasaturn wrote:
| Probably mixed up with the BYD Seagull which is indeed
| USD$10,000 (before tariffs).
| cogman10 wrote:
| > This would be much more effective than electric heating and
| likely generate less carbon emissions
|
| Perhaps in the case of an EV using resistive heating, however,
| most have moved on to using heatpumps.
|
| Heatpumps have COPs that range anywhere from 2 to 10. Which
| means for every 1kWh in, you get 2 to 10kWh of heat out. A
| resistive heater has a COP of 1.
|
| Fossil fuel power plants operate at ~40->60% efficiency, which
| means that past a COP of ~2 you are going to be more efficient
| for heating even if your power source is directly from fossil
| fuels. It's sort of neat.
|
| When talking about generation mixed grids (which most are now)
| the COP level needed to beat having a diesel burner for CO2
| output plummets.
|
| But one more point to consider, a modern EV needs an HVAC to
| ensure the proper operating temperature of a battery. The thing
| that killed the old Nissan Leafs was the fact that they didn't
| have any sort of cooling system for their batteries. Put those
| in hot climates and you are talking major and fast degradation.
|
| So, it wouldn't even be (much) lighter to omit the heatpump. To
| convert the HVAC system for the battery into a climate system
| is pretty much just requires a single valve.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| Cars should be Being Your Own Infotainment ready and support
| that.
|
| Software is a cost center. Your car company probably isnt going
| to win on it. Enable everyone else to compete to be a good
| infotainment for your base car.
| jfim wrote:
| They already are. Android auto and Apple carplay use your
| smartphone's brains to display on the car's touchscreen.
| numpad0 wrote:
| EVs are full of gimmicks because battery cost never hit
| $100/kWh and they have to justify the premium over ICE, that's
| it.
| floxy wrote:
| I though we hit sub $100/kWh in 2024?
|
| https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-lithium-ion-
| batteri...
| GuB-42 wrote:
| > I think electric cars need to be simpler.
|
| Look at the Dacia Spring. The entry level barely has a screen
| at all, and no camera, not even a backup camera, it doesn't
| even have a display for it. Also: no A/C, no thermostat, no
| rear power windows. You have to pay if you want these, and even
| if you take the "premium" model that has a touchscreen, it is
| pretty basic, essentially that's just a display for Android
| Auto / Apple Car Play, and you get a backup camera.
|
| That's what you would expect for an economy car. It is less
| than EUR20k. Unfortunately, it also has a pretty bad range and
| overall performance because of its small battery. Of course,
| batteries are expensive, and it is a cheap car. It means you
| won't get far with it. That's unlike "A-segment" gas cars (ex:
| Fiat 500) that while not the most comfortable, have no problem
| driving cross-country.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Ah yes, also pedals in case you run out of battery. And a
| tullock spike so you drive safely.
|
| The only reason Tesla succeeded is by making sexy car.
|
| Sure we are at the cost point where you can making boring EV.
| It would cost almost the same and only appeal to 1% of market.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| So basically an electric bike?
| bamboozled wrote:
| My friend has a Mitsubishi kei van Electric and it's exactly
| what you describe. It's just like a regular kei van but
| electric. It is a wonderful, wonderful car. Because of the low
| center of gravity of the heavy battery. It has no roll around
| corners like a regular kei van. It's like a sports car. It is
| as simple as a car could be.
|
| Only thing that's missing g for me is a 4x4 model.
| neuroelectron wrote:
| It seems like all the cars like this are only available in
| Europe
| llm_trw wrote:
| >No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc.
|
| Those things cost a few dollars now. This isn't the 00 where it
| was advanced tech. Physical buttons cost more.
| danpalmer wrote:
| > more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. This
| would be much more effective than electric heating and likely
| generate less carbon emissions
|
| Is this true? Honest question. My understanding is that for
| cars in general (implicitly driving range), electric cars are
| lower impact on the energy grid as a whole (ignoring last mile)
| because of how energy intensive oil is to refine.
|
| Is it that diesel specifically is less energy intensive because
| of how it differs in refinement to petrol? Or is it that
| because heating is effectively 100% efficient it doesn't matter
| that you're using the energy in refinement?
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Everything you just said can be applied to regular cars as
| well.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| A more interesting question is why are EV's built in the West so
| expensive.
| blinding-streak wrote:
| Cost of labor is much higher. Safety regulations are more
| strict. Environmental protections are more strict. It's more
| expensive across the board.
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| Is paying more for a product that meets higher safety
| standards and more environmentally friendly a bad thing?
|
| No, probably not.
|
| That said, the lowest pricing point is a massive competitive
| advantage.
| cbo100 wrote:
| The Chinese made cars meet the same safety standards as US
| and EU made cars (at least the ones sold outside of China
| do).
|
| I thought GP was talking more about the safety standards
| for workers in the factories - which do cost more to meet.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Look at profits of legacy auto. It's not the labor, they're
| prioritizing profits over investment to deliver on EVs
| (kicking the can and making it the future's problem).
| threeseed wrote:
| They are simply following the market.
|
| Hybrids have become increasingly popular as the charging
| infrastructure is still lacklustre in many parts of the
| world. And that's not a problem that can be solved
| overnight.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Even if EV charging was ubiquitous, legacy auto would
| sell what nets them the highest profit, which is not EVs.
| China's EV market is hypercompetitive, and does not
| suffer legacy auto type incumbents. It's why US
| automakers will likely leave China.
|
| At least we have BYD and Tesla, just gotta scale up
| faster. Global light vehicle TAM is 90M units/year. 20%
| of all vehicles sold globally last year were BEVs or
| PHEVs, onward and upward.
|
| https://fortune.com/2024/06/19/elon-musk-tesla-china-
| carmake... ("Bank of America tells Detroit's Big 3 they
| can't make money in China and should just leave the
| hypercompetitive car market 'as soon as they possibly
| can'")
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| > They are simply following the market.
|
| So is global warming. This excuse rang hollow 30 years
| ago and it still rings hollow today.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Or maybe the rest of the world has way less population
| per area and therefore more gas stations, therefore
| filling up was less of a problem compared to the US...
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Not sure how much it matters.
|
| I am thinking about getting a third car for the farm if I
| could get an inexpensive low range EV. If I am only
| driving to work with it or to go shopping or see a sports
| game at my Uni I can just it when I get home. If I need
| to go see a game in a distant city, well, I'll take one
| of the gas cars so my son will take the EV and not the
| Buick to work one morning.
| girvo wrote:
| Sadly (for myself) the only compact-ish plug-in hybrid
| that exists in my part of the world (Australia) is the
| Cupra Leon. Neat car, we're genuinely considering it, but
| it's $80,000AUD, vs. the $50,000AUD that a top-end hybrid
| Corolla would cost. And they're still much more expensive
| than my partners VW Polo... worth it for us, as we have a
| one car shared between the two of us, but I wish there
| were more compact-ish hybrids available.
|
| Honestly same goes for EVs, though the BYD stuff is
| starting to fill that niche quite nicely. And compact +
| decent range is sort of at odds with itself.
| segasaturn wrote:
| CEO salaries for comparison:
|
| Jim Farley (Ford CEO): $26.5 million
|
| Mary Barra (GM CEO): $27.8 million
|
| Koji Sato (Toyota CEO): $3.88 million
|
| Atsushi Osaki (Subaru CEO): $1.05 million
|
| Makoto Uchida (Nissan CEO): $4.5 million
|
| No idea what the compensation for auto executives in China
| is, but probably even smaller than Japan's.
|
| Sources:
|
| https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20230925-uaw-auto-
| strik...
|
| https://www.automotivedive.com/news/gm-ceo-compensation-
| fall...
|
| https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2024/
| 0...
| toast0 wrote:
| Taking just Ford, they sold 1,995,912 vehicles in 2023
| [1]; assuming it's divided evenly across vehicles, CEO
| compensation adds $1.32 to the price of a Ford. Probably
| CEO compensation is less substantial for a BYD vehicle,
| but it's just not a large component of the cost.
|
| [1] https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20
| America...
| JambalayaJimbo wrote:
| What about the entire C suite?
| hengheng wrote:
| $1.32 per car is a lot!
| ChadNauseam wrote:
| The OP said "Look at profits of legacy auto. It's not the
| labor, they're prioritizing profits over investment
| [...]". Are you arguing that this is incorrect by showing
| some examples of large labor expenses these US auto
| companies have? My understanding is that profits is what
| is left over to be paid to shareholders after they stop
| spending on employees/investment/opex/etc.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| There is also the choice of whether or not they make
| affordable cars.
|
| In the 1970s my dad had the worst time trying to buy
| compact cars from US dealerships, in the 2000s I thought US
| automakers were as bad but Japanese brands were better, by
| 2018 or so Japanese dealers were using the same toolbox
| ("You're saying I can't buy a Honda Fit because the factory
| washed out in a flood but you have 100 SUVs in a row that
| nobody wants to buy _made in the same factory?_ ")
|
| Then I got home and I am sure to read some article in the
| auto press which repeats, like the brainwash soldiers from
| _The Manchurian Candidate_ that Americans only want to
| drive huge vehicles. Sure, an American might want a size L
| vehicle on average but from their point of view it is a
| disaster that somebody would could possibly buy a $50k
| vehicle walks out with a $25k vehicle (that Sales Manager
| won't be able to work you over for another decade) so they
| will try to sell you an XXL vehicle.
|
| Tesla, GM, Toyota and many others have refused to make
| affordable EVs, it's that simple. Their hope is that a 100%
| tariff on BYD means they'll never have to service the
| affordable vehicle market.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| You're missing one of the principal actors here. It's not
| GM or Toyota selling you a car, it's a dealership. The
| dealership is only viable if they average $2-4k per sale.
| That margin simply doesn't exist on a $10k car, so they
| don't even want to offer it except to get you in the
| door.
|
| Manufacturers in turn (except Tesla) have no one to sell
| these vehicles, and would have to take a risk that they
| could make up the lost margin on volume. They don't have
| the cultures to do that either.
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| I can't imagine the recent tariffs have helped much, either.
| Less competition and pricier parts is a bad combination for
| consumers.
| chinabot wrote:
| They have cheap ICE cars
| bearjaws wrote:
| For one, they have spent years shedding all their talent and
| outsourcing all their components.
|
| Now they are the mercy of their vendors, with limited knowledge
| of how to do things any other way than to keep depending on
| them.
|
| Sometimes there are only 1 or 2 vendors they can pick from,
| with so little competition, it is no wonder the prices keep
| going up.
|
| If Tesla actually focused on making a cheap car, I am sure it
| would cost far less, but instead they need the Model 3 to be a
| cash cow to make up for all the other dumb decisions being
| made.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Maybe, but base Nissan Leaf is $28k off the lot today with L2
| self driving. Sure, air cooled battery, CHAdeMO, hatchback
| design... but it's not like those deficiencies would cost
| full $15k/car to fix; it's not like Big CHAdeMO is burning
| that much per each Leaf. So that kind of "Tesla would have
| this and that" arguments don't really hold water.
| ponorin wrote:
| Lack of focus on EV which leads to lower production volume
| (Chinese carmakers focused on EVs long before Tesla got
| popular), trend of over-sizing which means it's big and heavy,
| dogged obsession in road tripping rather than playing to EV's
| advantage in city driving, and of course Chinese carmakers
| get/got a healthy dose of subsidies.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| In USA, EVs are traditionally built as an aspirational rather
| than utilitarian article. Tesla will design whatever it wants,
| make it expensive, and you will buy it if you want to be cooler
| than your peers. Chinese sell cheap EVs because they're regular
| cars no one will envy.
|
| Or in a crude analogy, USA sells EVs like iPhones, China sells
| them like Androids.
| hencq wrote:
| A nice stereotype, but it doesn't seem to really match
| reality. See for example:
| https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-
| west... At least Chinese consumers (and increasingly more
| European consumers) just seem to prefer the Chinese EVs.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Model 3 is like $5k more and you get completely different level
| of tech.
| eeasss wrote:
| When USA and Japan wake up from their gasoline obsession the
| world would have moved on and Asia, South America and Africa
| would be on Chinese Evs. Europe will drive EU made cars from
| Chinese and European brands.
| wil421 wrote:
| How much does a scooter cost vs a Chinese EV in Asia?
| llm_trw wrote:
| Japan has a hydrogen obsession more than a gasoline one.
| pragmomm wrote:
| Outside of BYD, Every Chinese EV is losing money with every
| sale. Insiders say that every one of them will fold within the
| next 3 years. and when the EV company disappears, your car is
| now a worthless block of metal.
|
| Nobody should be buying Chinese EVs, and only BYD if you have
| to.
|
| As Chinese EV makers close, drivers of "smartphones on wheels"
| say software updates and maintenance are in jeopardy.
| https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/
| gigatexal wrote:
| I thought it was because China was subsidizing the cars a ton. Or
| have they really cracked EVs and economies of scale just got them
| there. Maybe a bit of both?
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Most of the direct subsidies ended in 2022.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| That's how you bootstrap a disruptive technology. The west also
| subsidizes EVs, but in a weak and disorganized way.
| segasaturn wrote:
| American EV subsidies likely to end if Trump wins in
| November. America is all-in on fossil fuels.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| This website does not make it seem as though the BYD Atto 3 is so
| great in terms of efficiency:
|
| https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electr...
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Seems breadly comparable with the Model Y LFP, slightly less
| efficient, slightly larger battery, lower price.
| selimnairb wrote:
| What does this high level of integration mean for repairability?
| Lack of/difficulty in repairability can raise lifecycle costs or
| reduce longevity. The latter is especially worrying for lifecycle
| carbon emissions.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| BYD is a state-backed enterprise with unknown levels of
| profitability when full subsidies are accounted for.
|
| Tariffs will be needed by countries that refuse to create state
| backed companies but which also want an automotive industry and a
| manufacturing base that can make weapons of war.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Lieutenant, I think you forgot one detail: customers.
| churchill wrote:
| Which still doesn't solve the problem: the real issue is that
| Western companies are financialized to the max. That's why Elon
| repeatedly lies to get a stock bump. Also, why companies like
| Google, Boeing, and Intel allow product quality to degrade, as
| long as they can prop up stock price for the next quarter.
|
| So, tariffs won't solve anything. Which is why despite the
| Jones Act, China builds 200x more ships that the US.
|
| Or, hasn't Tesla received billions in government assistance?
| what about the major automakers that'd have crumbled around
| 2008 if not for the US gov. pouring rivers of cash into them?
|
| So, protectionism is only a band-aid: it doesn't change the
| fact that American businesses have developed a short-termist
| culture that only cares for the next quarter.
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