[HN Gopher] The Lion of St. Mark's Square in Venice Is Chinese
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The Lion of St. Mark's Square in Venice Is Chinese
Author : pseudolus
Score : 78 points
Date : 2024-10-24 17:08 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (archaeologymag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (archaeologymag.com)
| nyeah wrote:
| Pictures of old Chinese lions:
| https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=63099308d1ada3ea&rlz=1...
|
| Careful, some of them are the St Mark's Square lion. Which the
| metal came from China but the origin of the artwork seems
| unclear.
| beardyw wrote:
| The article presents a good argument that it is Chinese. I
| don't see why it shouldn't be.
| nyeah wrote:
| Me either. I also don't see any reason why my code shouldn't
| work. Yet right now it doesn't.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| If you were an expert coder you might know why.
|
| If you were an expert art historian, you might know more
| about the statue too.
|
| Instead you just dismiss it because you don't know enough.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| "Lead isotope analysis of the bronze alloy provided
| indisputable evidence of the Chinese origin of the materials
| used in the statue."
|
| So we definitely know that the metal came from China. I
| suppose it's theoretically possible the metal could have been
| made in China, exported elsewhere to make into the statue,
| but that seems like a claim that would require a LOT of
| evidence to make plausible.
| bilekas wrote:
| > I suppose it's theoretically possible the metal could
| have been made in China, exported elsewhere to make into
| the statue
|
| First it's not theoretical where the metal is from, it's
| just been established. That is all that's been proven.
|
| Second, I'm not aware of much international metals trade
| across the silk road circa 1290~. If that was the case.. I
| really would expect some documentation on it. Especially
| given Venice's historical diligence with recording trade.
|
| Edit : "where the metal is from"
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| > Which the metal came from China but the origin of the artwork
| seems unclear.
|
| Even wildly famous western artwork often has unknown
| provenance, or only vaguely-known provenance. Furthermore art
| historians often see identifying details, stylizations, flaws,
| etc that laymen (like myself) don't. I'm happy to trust the
| reporting here as much as I'd trust anything from a field I
| don't know much about (what alternative is there, really?).
| nyeah wrote:
| I'm happy that you're happy trusting this as much as you'd
| trust anything else. It doesn't sound like a ringing
| endorsement.
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| > It doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement.
|
| You don't find many of these when looking at the past, and
| if you do, this should be a giant, glaring red flag. I may
| not be a trained _art_ historian but I do know my
| historiography very well.
| nyeah wrote:
| In fact neither one of us has a strong belief about where
| the piece was made.
| bilekas wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, even from the
| comments it's not clear.
|
| Are you being flippant about the metal being from China but the
| creation (artwork) was done in Venice ?
|
| That would be a bit strange, Venice had access to easier
| sources of metals than the silk road. Also why would it be a
| point of contention? If it came from China, cool, that's
| fascinating that items of this size/magnitude was transported
| for reasons.. Maybe a gift maybe pillaging ? But that's just
| speculation.
| nyeah wrote:
| The article says the metal came from China.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Gavin Menzies would've had a field day
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#1434:_The_Year_a...
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| Except for the dates:
|
| > There is no historical record of when or how the lion arrived
| in Venice, but it was already installed atop the column in St.
| Mark's Square by the time Marco Polo returned from China in
| 1295.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Then he would have an excuse to come up with an even wilder
| theory of earlier contact
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH95kw9REEU
| crazygringo wrote:
| From Wikipedia:
|
| _The Lion sculpture has had a very long and obscure history,
| probably starting its existence as a funerary statue called
| zhenmushou (Zhen Mu Shou in Simplified Chinese, literally "tomb
| guardian") in medieval China, during the reign of the Tang
| Dynasty._
|
| _...The Lion, in its present form, is a composite of different
| pieces of bronze created at very different times, building upon
| ancient "core" components. It has undergone extensive restoration
| and repair work at various times._
|
| _...More recent studies, however, suggest that the statue likely
| comes from the regions near the lower course of the Yangtze
| River, in eastern China, and was probably cast sometime in the
| period from the 7th to the early 10th century CE, during the
| reign of the Tang Dynasty. The original bronze figure, taken as a
| whole, was likely significantly different from the Lion of
| today..._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Venice
| empath75 wrote:
| Keep in mind that this statue was broken and reassembled several
| times so it probably doesn't look very much like the original
| Chinese version any more. In particular, the wings aren't
| original.
| Leary wrote:
| "Further proof arrives through the holes in the sculpture's head,
| which researchers believe would have once held horns, and ears
| which have been rounded off. The sculpture, which is known to
| have arrived in parts and reassembled, was essentially modified
| to look more lion-like."
|
| https://news.artnet.com/art-world/bronze-venice-lion-from-ch...
| jakub_g wrote:
| > Lead isotope analysis of the bronze alloy provided indisputable
| evidence of the Chinese origin of the materials used in the
| statue.
|
| Is there some more detailed source explaining how this conclusion
| was reached? What's distinct about Chinese lead / how this kind
| of evaluations are done?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope_analysis_in_archaeolog...
| and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_lead
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Those links do not answer the question, separately or
| combined.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| They absolutely do answer the question.
| sct202 wrote:
| This one is specific to Chinese lead isotopes. Many Chinese
| bronzes have elevated levels of radiogenic lead.
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30275-2
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| I think they're looking for a study that was done on this
| particular item, not just info about isotopes in general
|
| There's some more info on the lion's measurements here, but I
| haven't been able to find the study that was presented in
| September
|
| https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2024/03/00/in5093/in5093..
| ..
| Isamu wrote:
| The original article translated from Italian puts it this way:
|
| >the results indicate that the colossal statue is most likely
| an elaborate reassembly of what was initially a zhenmushou
| (Zhen Mu Shou "keeper of tombs") fused in the Tang period
| (609-907 AD) with copper from the mines of the lower basin of
| the Yang-tze River, the Blue River in southern China. This is
| confirmed by accurate analyses of lead isotopes, which leave in
| the bronze unmistakable traces of the original mines from which
| the copper was extracted.
|
| The implication is that the mines themselves have different
| isotope signatures that have been established in previous
| archaeological studies.
| stelliosk wrote:
| The lion may be Chinese but the four horses in St Mark's Basilica
| are Greek looted from Constantinople during the fourth crusade
| (1204).
|
| Perhaps the lion was also looted and brought to Constantinople
| originally which would fit with pre Marco Polo's travels.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_of_Saint_Mark
| tedk-42 wrote:
| As an Asian person having grown up with a bit of South Chinese
| culture, it does appear a bit like a Chinese lion statue, but the
| wings really throw it off for me.
| paganel wrote:
| Could be that the wings are a later addition, like they might
| have been added in the 1100s-1200s in Venice or those
| whereabouts.
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(page generated 2024-10-24 23:00 UTC)