[HN Gopher] Show HN: Wall-mounted diffusion mirror that turns re...
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Show HN: Wall-mounted diffusion mirror that turns reflections into
paintings
Author : cataPhil
Score : 439 points
Date : 2024-10-23 22:24 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.matthieulc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.matthieulc.com)
| amelius wrote:
| Prize for the most power-hungry mirror.
|
| I also notice that the paintings are not stable over small
| changes in the inputs.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| To me, that's the charm.
| amelius wrote:
| How about changing the style every time the viewer blinks?
| jaredhallen wrote:
| It would be cool to intercept the input from a webcam, transform
| it like this, and then present it to the OS as another virtual
| camera so you could select it in Teams or Zoom or whatever.
| noman-land wrote:
| You can do this with OBS.
| broast wrote:
| Super cool! I've had similar ideas when I first saw
| StreamDiffusion. The possibilities are endless
| shermantanktop wrote:
| Have you considered a high frame rate morph effect between
| images? That would increase the effective frame rate and probably
| would look pretty cool.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Even a simple crossfade.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| That's the technique I used on a piece that does inpainting
| across an image at a rate of about 1 image every 8 seconds - I
| 'melt' the results in for the duration until the next patch is
| ready: https://hardwork.party/aws-epoch-optimizer/
| lancesells wrote:
| I actually think the high frame rate will look worse unless the
| styling changes less in between frames. Otherwise, it's going
| to look erratic and there will be a ton of "popping" if each
| frame changes as much as the frames in the current video. Or
| maybe op wants it to be a chaotic feeling.
| flir wrote:
| Many years ago I did a couple of hundred variations on the
| mona lisa in photoshop, and stacked them as a gif. As the
| eyes remained unchanged in each frame, they gave a fixed
| point you could focus on while the rest of the face strobed
| chaotically. It was a nice effect.
| theendisney4 wrote:
| Sounds cool! I would like pictures with people in the room doing
| weird things energetically like stand on their chair. Dancing.
| Confetti booze strange outfits. Bordering the offensive then
| deleted after 30 minutes.
| autoexec wrote:
| It's pretty neat, but I'd never have a webcam steaming everything
| in view to someone else's server on the internet. It'd be cool if
| the server ran on my own hardware, and ideally in the frame
| itself. The privacy policy at runpod.io wouldn't even display in
| my browsers. (their ToS loaded without an issue).
| beeflet wrote:
| I wonder if you could do something like this with hardware
| acceleration (like google coral)
| refulgentis wrote:
| Unfortunately no, they only have a TensorFlow target and none
| of the hobbyist / released big model image stuff works with
| it
| imsaw wrote:
| I think the low framerate adds a unique ambience, at least to me,
| watching the recorded videos. It gives time to appreciate the art
| style and generated features. It also feels like a time lapse of
| gradual changes. I could imagine it being annoying to look at in
| real time though.
| tsunamifury wrote:
| Micasso
| shib71 wrote:
| > Art is ... mostly about surfacing the inner world, and only in
| part about skill.
|
| I like the phrasing of the first part. But what art is "about" is
| very subjective.
|
| For me, part of what I look for in art is intentionality - the
| notion that the artist has crafted each element toward a purpose,
| consciously or not. The less an artist contributes to the final
| piece, the less meaning I assign to it.
|
| In this case: I would say that the individual pictures being
| displayed are not "art" - they have no meaning. But I think the
| device in whole is a piece of art. _That_ is a creation that
| surfaces the creator 's inner world, because they designed the
| device, wrote the code, crafted the prompts to achieve pieces
| that reflected their notion of beauty.
| disqard wrote:
| I love this framing (pun unintended) of "art".
|
| Besides what you articulated as the "intention", I often think
| of the "story" behind the art -- whether an idea in the
| creator's head was expressed via the piece (or not) makes me go
| "yes, this is Art" (or not).
|
| By that token, when I see automated projects like this, I think
| of the "installation" as art, but the pixels or arrangements
| generated by the piece itself is less art-like IMO.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| Yes. I think we attribute the cost of the human sacrifice into
| the value of the art. It's a like owning 1/80th of a human soul
| and hanging it on the wall.
| viraptor wrote:
| > It's unfortunate that art selects so strongly for skill. Can we
| decorrelate the two?
|
| I really like this direction. I understand why some object to the
| genai approaches, but in practice sometimes I get an idea of
| something cool and don't have the skills to create it myself. I'm
| not going to invest months/years to create each of those ideas
| and they're not important enough to spend hundreds of dollars
| that a skilled artist would request. Now there's a way people can
| try generating the thing and may end up enjoying it - and that's
| great. (At least for personal use, it gets a bit complicated for
| commercial purposes)
| happymellon wrote:
| But unfortunately they did not.
|
| Not everyone could build what is presented here, and
| inadvertently they have validated that it requires skill to
| produce a machine that distorts your reality. The pictures
| being produced isn't the art.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| This is assuming an unimplemented idea has value. I think the
| value we attribute to an idea is actually the dissemination of
| the idea to others. Often a sufficiently radical idea is
| difficult for others to grasp and therefore an example must be
| created by the originator of the idea.
|
| So when someone says "That's a great idea" what they mean is
| "That's great work".
|
| Time will tell if others see an idea backed by AI work as
| valuable. Can they even tell? Who knows.
| rnxrx wrote:
| This really does change the interaction with art. As a future
| expansion it might be neat to recognize images on camera that
| would make for interesting art (i.e. detection of people/animals
| or recognition of certain styles of composition) as well as being
| able to choose amongst different styles.
|
| It seems sort of akin to some modern art that incorporated TV
| screens and video to make dynamic installations, like Nam June
| Paik.
| r00fus wrote:
| Is there any way to freeze some of the images?
|
| I thought some of them would be awesome to keep (e.g. pfp or
| lockscreen photo).
| melony wrote:
| Some optimization suggestions:
|
| - cache the prompting somehow, unless you are doing dynamic stuff
| with the prompts, the language embeddings generated should be
| static (this depends on the architecture of the model that you
| are using, it's only possible with certain setups where the
| language processing is a separate part in the pipeline)
|
| - consider fine-tuning an img to img model with your current
| outputs instead of using a language-coupled model. My intuition
| is that this is currently significantly over-engineered on the ML
| side.
|
| - Play around with local hardware acceleration instead of sending
| everything to the cloud, you also probably don't need
| particularly high resolution for the images either.
| cataPhil wrote:
| Love it thanks, will look into it!
| caelinsutch wrote:
| how much does this end up costing to run?
| GradientSurfer wrote:
| Nice! I peeked at the code and thought I'd share a few tips for
| improving the low frame rate:
|
| Base64 encoding the JPEG bytes will increase payload size up to
| ~30% and burns CPU cycles on both client and server. This is
| unnecessary, as Websocket protocol can send binary payloads
| (doesn't need to be text).
|
| Consider removing lossy jpg compression as well, ie just send the
| raw RGB bytes over the network. Then on the server side you can
| simply call Image.frombuffer(...).
|
| StreamDiffusion can achieve high frame rates because of extensive
| batching in the pipeline. You're not benefiting from that here as
| the client is only sending one frame at a time and then waiting
| for a response. See this example for an idea of how to queue
| input frames and consume them in batches
| https://github.com/cumulo-autumn/StreamDiffusion/blob/main/e... .
|
| Alternatively you could take a look at the SDXL Turbo and
| Lightning models. They are very fast at img2img but have limited
| resolution of 5122 or 10242 pixels respectively. Which appears a
| bit lower than what you're aiming for here, but they can be run
| locally in real time on a high end consumer grade GPU. For
| reference I have some code demonstrating this here
| https://github.com/GradientSurfer/Draw2Img/tree/main
| MrLeap wrote:
| yeah yeah yeah, do all these things, and afterwards, look at 2d
| interpolation methods that don't require AI for your
| inbetweens. There's some real fast kernel math that can lerp
| from one blob to another at 8 billion fps.
| enjeyw wrote:
| I think you're getting downvoted because "yeah yeah yeah" is
| normally a sign that someone is sarcastically dismissing an
| idea, but the rest of your comment suggests you're not at all
| - linerp is a great idea!
| cataPhil wrote:
| These are great ideas thank you!
| MrLeap wrote:
| It was a sincere triple yeah, born of excitement.
| yboris wrote:
| Makes sense, consider adding a `!` for clarity at the end
| next time ;)
| bambax wrote:
| Ok, but I wonder if it really needs to be real time like this?
| Wouldn't it make more sense to have some kind of button:
| somebody makes a pose, takes a picture, the picture is run
| through some kind of transformation and comes back as a
| painting that stays there until someone takes another picture?
| Wouldn't the illusion of art be better that way? (It would not
| be a "mirror" anymore though.)
| roland35 wrote:
| I think it has to be either real time or a very low
| framerate, like once every 30 seconds. That way you have time
| to see each "painting"
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > It's unfortunate that art selects so strongly for skill.
|
| Jackson Pollock begs to differ.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Artistic skill lies not merely in the hand, but also in the
| eye.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > Artistic skill lies not merely in the hand, but also in the
| eye.
|
| Precisely. There is no skill in artistry, it's rather just a
| developed sense of style, that doesn't come from a medium or
| method, it comes from growing to know oneself.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| I agree. I think the distinction between arts and crafts is
| largely one of utility, rather than skill or technique.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > I agree. I think the distinction between arts and
| crafts is largely one of utility, rather than skill or
| technique.
|
| Which is why I take offense to someone claiming that it
| selects for and requires skill. Especially because the
| ones making that argument are usually the ones arguing
| that they're incapable of making art. I would tell them
| they just need to spend more time finding themselves.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| > Which is why I take offense to someone claiming that it
| selects for and requires skill. Especially because the
| ones making that argument are usually the ones arguing
| that they're incapable of making art. I would tell them
| they just need to spend more time finding themselves.
|
| And spend more time (and intentional effort) in making
| art! It's like people want a shortcut to end result, when
| "real" artists know that the process of self-discovery is
| the reason and means through which they make the art in
| the first place.
|
| The map is not the territory. The purpose of the journey
| is the journey itself; the destination is simply a
| guiding star. A whole lot of aspirational mapmakers think
| if they only had "this one weird trick," they'd be gods.
| Filligree wrote:
| Um, no, I want illustrations for my stories. That's the
| end, and the means can be whatever. I don't care to
| search for self-discovery in that.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| That's a reasonable expectation and desirable outcome in
| and of itself. Not everything needs to be intended to be
| art for it to be perceived as such.
|
| Art is in the eye of the beholder.
|
| Do you share your stories publicly? I'm curious what kind
| of stories you would write.
|
| It would be cool to have an HN writing group!
| Filligree wrote:
| I do, but it's obscure fanfiction. Admittedly with heavy
| computer science and AI inspirations, so maybe you'd find
| it interesting regardless?
|
| It's over here:
| https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/shards-of-
| a-br...
| aspenmayer wrote:
| I read the prologue and it seems neat! I'm not familiar
| with the fanfiction scene really, or the works yours is
| based on. How did the voting work?
|
| I like the pictures, and I can see how using AI would
| help a lot with that, especially in the context of
| existing characters, as matching styles and designs is
| something that AI is likely well-suited to do.
|
| I read a bit about Shugo Chara to see what it's about,
| and it seems like an interesting series. The way you
| presented your story reminded me of Steins;Gate a bit
| with the reality manipulation.
|
| Should I be familiar with the source material in order to
| appreciate your work better?
|
| Thanks for sharing your work. Are you working on any
| other pieces?
|
| Any anime recommendations, while you're here?
| Filligree wrote:
| The voting is pretty much as shown. People vote on what
| the protagonist (usually Amu) _tries_ to do, I decide
| what actually happens. It 's a kind of communal
| roleplaying game; a quest, in SV parlance.
|
| I've worked on other stories, but this is the only one
| right now. As to source material, knowing it would be
| beneficial, but it's all new to the protagonists and the
| only one I'd say is a must-have is Shugo Chara. Though
| not even that; several players did not know anything
| about Amu in advance. You'll be a little lost, but the
| wiki entry will suffice for giving you the basic idea.
| The story's set post-canon, with some divergences, so it
| starts off by trying to describe the current situation.
|
| And anime... Magilumiere is great. Give it a try.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > Um, no, I want illustrations for my stories. That's the
| end, and the means can be whatever. I don't care to
| search for self-discovery in that.
|
| Maybe writing a story is your art... Part of self-
| discovery is in finding out how you desire to express
| yourself. There's a reason many books have a an author
| _and_ an illustrator.
| Filligree wrote:
| No question about that, but I always get slightly annoyed
| about people who insist artwork has to be internally
| fulfilling or whatever.
|
| Great if that's how it works for you, but for me it's a
| means to an end.
| bambax wrote:
| Just watched "F for Fake" (Orson Welles, 1973), a
| documentary of sorts about the great art forger Elmyr de
| Hory who was able to imitate the style of many of his
| contemporaries to perfection (Modigliani, Matisse, etc.),
| fooling the painters themselves!
|
| At one point in the movie his biographer says
|
| > _I think Elmyr 's problem for years and the reason why he
| could not succeed as a painter in his own right was that
| the type of life he led prohibited him from having a
| personal vision._
|
| Elmyr had great skill, greater than anyone alive perhaps,
| but he had nothing to say.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > Elmyr had great skill, greater than anyone alive
| perhaps, but he had nothing to say.
|
| I would argue that he spoke volumes and had a vision so
| vast that he was able to take perspective from any
| other's view. What a rich life Elmyr must have led.
| bravura wrote:
| FYI, the link to the frame used to mount the display just blocks
| you:
|
| https://www.leroymerlin.fr/produits/decoration-eclairage/dec...
|
| For those curious, it's a MILO 21 x 29.7 cm black frame. These
| links work for me:
|
| https://www.leroymerlin.pt/produtos/decoracao-e-tapetes/mold...
|
| Also, the screen he uses (HMTECH Raspberry Pi Screen 10.1) is
| pretty hard to find. Do people have other good recommendations
| for screens with similar quality and specs?
|
| Any idea why this uses infrared light and an infrared camera?
| piva00 wrote:
| > Any idea why this uses infrared light and an infrared camera?
|
| I'd guess it's to make it work in the dark as well.
| cataPhil wrote:
| That's correct. Plus it also adds a layer of interaction
| that's pretty fun, kind of like a wand.
| esperent wrote:
| Every time I've looked into building something like this, when
| I price it out, just using an old Android tablet in kiosk mode
| and making it a web app ends up being much cheaper.
| bambax wrote:
| The screen is available on Amazon? But it's a touch screen,
| which seems overkill; any screen would probably work? One can
| always build a custom frame around it.
| bravura wrote:
| Touch screen I think is cool because then you could interact
| with the art.
|
| I did a little research and these Waveshare displays look
| really beautiful. For a particular size display, they have
| models in different resolutions (from lower to higher res).
| But they're only for rpis and windows, not like mac or ipad.
| The QLED ones are the best.
|
| https://www.waveshare.com/product/ai/displays/10.1hp-
| capqled...
| malux85 wrote:
| Let's hook it up to a sentiment and toxicity model, and then if
| you're being too negative online, it will start to deform you
| into a monster, we could have a real Picture of Dorian Gray!
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I chuckled, but that is actually an interesting ( and very
| doable ) fun project idea.
| CaptainFever wrote:
| This is actually such a cool idea.
| tiborsaas wrote:
| Really neat idea, I'd also love to have on my bookshelf.
|
| > The main issue with the current setup is the low frame rate.
|
| I'd call it a feature rather a limitation, it's not bad that I
| have second to process the image for a bit.
|
| I would even increase the update frequency to 5 - 15 minutes and
| let it capture and generate a new image whenever it detects
| something changing / moving.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| I think this would be cooler if the camera was somewhere
| different than the frame. Looking at an artistic mirror seems a
| little boring. Maybe make a 2nd one, and put it in someone else's
| house, and then feed the camera from one into the other. So you
| can look at the 'reflection' of someone else and have these
| little moments where you're both looking at the picture at the
| same time. Heck, make many so you never know who you're looking
| at. It'll be the Omegle of picture frames.
| stefs wrote:
| that's a good idea but something completely different than OP
| wanted to accomplish.
|
| i remember that this has been done already as an art
| installation in public places so people could see - and
| interact - with others from around the world.
|
| edit: like this here -
| https://www.inavateonthenet.net/news/article/vc-art-installa...
| bambax wrote:
| > _an art installation in public places so people could see -
| and interact - with others from around the world_
|
| Sure, and it wasn't long before this happened:
|
| > _It took less than a week for people eager to share their
| 'assets' with the world to shut down the visual portals set
| up between the cities of Dublin and New York on 8 May.
| Although the project was aimed at bringing people together
| and connecting cultures, a few visitors to the locations have
| decided to take the invitation of getting to know others to a
| whole other level._
|
| https://traveltomorrow.com/new-york-dublin-portals-shut-
| down...
|
| (One wonders why flashing is such a big problem that the
| whole installation needs to be shut down; but it seemed quite
| obvious from the start that people would try to do this...)
| swayvil wrote:
| >But art is mostly about surfacing the inner world
|
| Oh good lord.
| more_corn wrote:
| What's wrong with that? If art is expression shouldn't everyone
| have the right to artistic expression? Even people who express
| themselves with nerdy projects and code and hardware instead of
| paint and canvas? What do you think art is?
| king_magic wrote:
| This is very cool and I applaud you OP.
| stonethrowaway wrote:
| > But art is mostly about surfacing the inner world, and only in
| part about skill. It's unfortunate that art selects so strongly
| for skill. Can we decorrelate the two?
|
| I don't think the poor lad knows what Art is.
|
| Put another way, we have hundreds of years of recorded
| philosophical texts and diatribes on what constitutes Art, and
| what art-making is. Often written by serious practitioners who
| dedicate their life to it rather than internet-dwelling dabblers
| and dilettantes. We have people who are deemed artists, not
| necessarily painters but people who are wired a certain way and
| are industrious with their abilities. Math geniuses attend
| certain schools and the other pupils may pick up a thing or two
| from them, but that doesn't mean the other pupils are geniuses
| also. So too, do artists walk among us and may do what we do and
| we may imitate what they do. But that doesn't put us on equal
| footing whatsoever.
|
| Art doesn't select for skill. This is a red herring and a
| misunderstanding. Art doesn't select for anything, because if it
| did it wouldn't be Art. This is an old somewhat trite topic that,
| historically, boiled down to no more than a pithy phrase: "Art
| cannot be taught." as expounded by many teachers of incredible
| talent in their own right who have attempted to distill it into
| teachable material and realized their talent is not transferable
| as easily as they had hoped.
|
| Most of what you read on this subject is nonsense sold to you by
| grifters who want your money. Now and today more than ever. I'm
| all for, say, "Art and Fear" and "The Art Spirit" and even a bit
| of "War of Art" to name some household items on the subject.
| These are all great recent texts. But let's take these for what
| they are: self-help literature, and nothing more. The further
| back in literature you go the less of this patting-on-the-back
| attitude you get, and more serious the subject matter is treated
| (example: read the lectures on Art by the presidents of the Royal
| Academy, they are numerous, Archive has them all. One president
| basically tells students to choose a different profession,
| discussed as an aside topic in a book on portraiture from that
| time.)
|
| Elsewhere in the comments people saying how art is simply good
| taste seem to be oblivious to the creations of artists that led
| them to make such a blundering conclusion. Your taste wouldn't
| exist had an artist not created a thing to begin with.
|
| We've used image generators for decades now. It gets the job
| done. The person using it may be an artist or just someone who
| wants a dynamic, changing generated image on the wall.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| << Archive has them all.
|
| Thank you. I added those to my reading list. I don't think I
| ever delved into the topic.
|
| << Often written by serious practitioners who dedicate their
| life to it rather than internet-dwelling dabblers and
| dilettantes.
|
| And yet, here we have someone not burdened by the serious
| business of art and gives his personal perspective on it. I am
| not saying a lot of everything is not mostly crap, because it
| mostly is, but I found this child-like honesty oddly endearing.
|
| << Art doesn't select for skill.
|
| Artist without a skill is just a dreamer, who can't put his
| vision into place. Barrier of entry has been lowered now, but I
| am relatively certain that was not always the case.
| arathis wrote:
| This is great.
| igornadj wrote:
| > Making art is hard. But art is mostly about surfacing the inner
| world, and only in part about skill. It's unfortunate that art
| selects so strongly for skill.
|
| Not to sound like a luddite, but I do question the idea that the
| skill gap is merely an inconvenience. I suspect learning how to
| paint or make music changes something in yourself which teaches
| you some deeper life lessons.
|
| I've heard the phrase (paraphrased): No great work of art was
| made by a genius, genius comes to you unexpectedly like a gust of
| wind. It seems that cultivating these opportunities is the most
| an artist can do, and removing the skill gap seems to be removing
| the cultivation, the thing that changes you, the essence.
|
| There seems to be a few of these inherent deep workings that we
| as a people keep coming back to, without knowing what they are or
| how to discuss them (personally at least!). Not to rain on your
| parade OP, the project looks fun and super useful to a lot
| people! Just something I ponder on at times.
| terhechte wrote:
| This goes opposite to the saying "Experts say it cannot be
| done; amateurs accomplish it every day.".
|
| Sometimes it's good to have someone with fresh eyes looking and
| something and not be shaped by decades of prior history.
| NavinF wrote:
| > "Experts say it cannot be done; amateurs accomplish it
| every day."
|
| I love this because I seem to encounter situations like that
| every day. Who came up with this saying?
|
| Recent example: This guy asked a very simple question about
| something that's commonly done in industry (wiring two power
| supplies in parallel and balancing the current between them):
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AskElectronics/comments/1g84zd7/usi.
| ..
|
| Literally 95% of the replies in that thread are irrelevant
| bullshit from "experts" that have no idea how redundant
| server PSUs work. I replied to some under the same username.
| Meanwhile another guy successfully wired two 100W USB-C ports
| in parallel to power an entire PC. He had no idea that the
| resistance of his crappy wires kept the two smps control
| loops stable and divided the current evenly between the two
| ports ensuring that neither one trips OCP: https://www.reddit
| .com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/1g8pser/let_m...
| baq wrote:
| I guess there's the armchair expert and the actual, real
| expert and these two are completely different beasts.
|
| I wouldn't feel comfortable with this guy's usb-c setup but
| probably not for 'it's all going to burn down' reasons,
| more like 'the connection will get loose somewhere and I'll
| lose my work'.
| NavinF wrote:
| He posted the photos as soon as he got it working; It's
| obviously not his permanent setup. My point is that he
| posted it on the same day that ~60 people claimed this
| was somehow a difficult task.
| vasco wrote:
| "Random person on reddit" doesn't qualify as experts.
| NavinF wrote:
| Everyone in that thread pretended to be an expert despite
| being clueless. This is normal, but you'd only notice it
| if you're familiar. Also see Gell-Mann amnesia effect
| bambax wrote:
| > _Who came up with this saying?_
|
| I was not aware of that specific formulation but there's a
| maxim by Mark Twain that says "They did not know it was
| impossible so they did it".
| jijan wrote:
| Amsyar hensem
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| Since I actually work in this field:
|
| Redundant switching power supplies are purpose built to be
| redundant. They usually have a current share circuit (to
| balance the load) and output diodes (to stop one supply
| from feeding the other one). Without that one supply will
| "over power" the other, fill it's output caps, and then the
| feedback of that supply will go "Hey the output caps are
| charged so why do I need to do anything!?". You end up with
| an erosion of power balance.
|
| You are riding a pretty high horse, but the commenters in
| that thread are not wrong and if you think cheap 5V USB
| chargers are anything like redundant server PSU's. I don't
| think putting random USB chargers in parallel will cause a
| fire or anything, but it's just needlessly bad engineering
| that will be anything but robust.
|
| A programming analogy to help people here: You can write a
| program that is tens of thousands of lines of if
| statements. It might probably work maybe for some inputs?
| But damn if it not bad engineering. No one would ride
| around on the high horse of "See the program worked! The
| "experts" were wrong!".
| Log_out_ wrote:
| ? Have you ever read musician interviews: Its like a
| competition on how much clichee, naivete and reality denying
| drivel one can compress into 5 minutes.
|
| Idealism is not a victimless crime, millions suffer every day
| because some artist threw a buggy,idealized world model over
| the fence and the idiocy stuck hypnotizing millions into
| permanently damaging themselves.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| There something compelling inside musicians that comes out in
| their music. Everyone feels it but few can define it. There's
| a reason they did not choose conversation as their medium.
| grugagag wrote:
| Are you talking about stage presence?
| piva00 wrote:
| Musicians are not necessarily stage performers, there's
| lots of touching instrumental music where the musician
| doesn't even do much on stage.
|
| Music itself is a language, something undefinable comes
| from that language that we can't modulate the same way
| through speech.
| Super_Jambo wrote:
| This is why the greatest art is only made by people who grow
| the plants to create their own paint from scratch...
| flir wrote:
| I think he's on the right lines with "surfacing the inner
| world", but that's why I see this as more wallpaper than art.
| He's not doing a deep dive into his own psychology and hauling
| up pearls; none of these images have that property.
|
| Does the totality of the project have that property? That would
| be less clear, but IMO, no. I see it as technically driven, not
| psychologically driven, although I can see how you could write
| an artist's statement that claims it was (it's about mirrors,
| after all, which are hugely symbolic).
|
| To be clear I still like it, and if I'd done it I'd be proud of
| it. But it's more artifice than art.
|
| (If I was him, I'd slow the frame rate down, not speed it up -
| work with the technical limitation, not against it. Have the
| system only display "good" images, and not update the display
| until another "good" image is generated. The code that decides
| if an image is "good" or not would be the most interesting part
| of the system, and could fairly be said to embody the artist's
| intent, and so cross (my own personal) threshold into capital-A
| Art.
|
| I'd also experiment with buffering the image stream a la _Light
| of Other Days_ by Bob Shaw.
|
| Oh, and as Halloween is nearly with us, the temptation to
| occasionally inpaint a figure standing behind the viewer would
| be massive.
|
| Idle thought: to get some stability in the image, would it be
| possible to have an LLM generate random video filter code,
| instead of random images? "Write me a video filter that makes
| the input video look cubist". "...like an oil painting"
| "...with a Flash aesthetic". etc etc. Every time a filter gets
| generated that doesn't actively crash, swap to it. No idea if
| that's feasible or not.)
| Kim_Bruning wrote:
| It's extremely sophisticated dynamic art.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Talk like "surfacing the inner whatever" can impress the
| masses, for a very short while, but good art requires more. All
| art has a language, standards that are learned though an
| artist's development as they learn the needed skills. The mona
| lisa isn't just a good picture of a person. It is full of
| details and meaning only understandable to people who have
| studied paintings. AI can generate a good or interesting
| picture but it cannot speak the language of painting. That
| requires actual graft to learn and appreciate. Injecting the
| paintbrush skills into someone's brain, or into an AI tool,
| isn't going to make them an artist.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| > I suspect learning how to paint or make music changes
| something in yourself which teaches you some deeper life
| lessons.
|
| I enthusiastically support this notion. A simpler, than
| painting, example would be writing. Sure everyone has a story
| to tell, and everyone can write, but to make it worth other
| people's time would take you days if not years of perfecting
| the craft, as you inevitably learn things about yourself and
| crystallize your perspectives on this world.
| xlii wrote:
| > But art is mostly about surfacing the inner world, and only in
| part about skill.
|
| I always thought that art is all about emotions, both preserving
| and creating them. That's why I find a banana on the wall art,
| popular music is still art.
|
| (Might be school influence but I also tend to ask myself ,,why")
|
| This invention is definitely work of art, but its output - in my
| eyes - not. It's like a cloud. It can make different shapes, and
| some are funny, some might remind me of my close ones, but it's
| still averaged randomness.
|
| However the idea to reflect reality to this digital randomness I
| find without doubt - art. And, well: while not visual or audible,
| there is software, hardware, code and design which are also art
| (and difficult to make so counterpoint to thesis in first
| paragraph ;)).
| khafra wrote:
| > I always thought that art is all about emotions, both
| preserving and creating them.
|
| But this leaves the role of intention ambiguous. If I double-
| park a BMW across two handicap spaces because I'm angry and
| entitled, is that art? It certainly evokes emotion, and it's
| also produced by emotion.
| happymellon wrote:
| If you present it as art, sure.
|
| But the best part about art is that other people don't have
| to consider what you do as art.
|
| I would find it hard to believe you are presenting it as art
| though, as you'll want your BMW back after you've bought
| whatever crap at the store.
|
| I don't have to believe your AI generated slop is art because
| it doesn't actually convey any emotion.
|
| This generation of the picture itself is art, similar to
| other "experience" art pieces. Its referred to as immersive
| art.
| Lerc wrote:
| > _If you present it as art, sure._
|
| > _But the best part about art is that other people don 't
| have to consider what you do as art._
|
| I often think of art in a way that is remarkably consistent
| with these statements.
|
| My view was "Art is an invitation to consider" Sticking a
| banana to a wall becomes art when you do it to make people
| to engage or think about it.
|
| Engagement is not compulsory, but I think the invitation
| might be. Sticking a banana to a wall to keep it away from
| ants is simple utility, not intended to be artistic
| expression.
|
| > _I don 't have to believe your AI generated slop is art
| because it doesn't actually convey any emotion._
|
| You don't have to engage, but choosing to denigrate is
| actively hostile engagement. There are plenty of people
| using AI for expression of ideas. There are also people
| doing a bunch of dumb things. Lowbrow art is still art in
| it's own way. Much of it may have very little to say, but I
| don't think there are very many people who have pretensions
| that low effort images are much more than a kind of
| doodling.
| happymellon wrote:
| > You don't have to engage, but choosing to denigrate is
| actively hostile engagement.
|
| Apologies, that was not my intent, more to make people
| think because some people seemed to be confused about
| what is the art here.
|
| Sticking a webcam through a filter to produce a pretty
| output isn't necessarily original, but that doesn't stop
| it being interactive art. Some folks here seem to think
| the image is art, whereas I see the whole as the art. A
| single static image that had been captured and run
| through the filter then presented doesn't really have
| very much to say. The installation can be interpreted in
| many ways and grows to be more than the sum of its parts.
|
| Is it generating images?
|
| Could it be co-adopted by people with vision or
| interpretation issues such as prosopagnosia?
|
| Low effort/low brow art is still art.
|
| Clicking on "create me an image" and having Bing generate
| a picture doesn't give the world anything as it enters
| zero effort, which ultimately reduces the creators
| investment, and therefore the viewers investment, into
| the piece.
| flir wrote:
| If I had to drag myself across a desert in order to press
| that Bing button, would it be art then? (I think, in that
| example, the act of pressing the button might be the art
| - a performance).
| happymellon wrote:
| Which aligns with this piece in the story.
|
| Sticking a webcam shot through an AI filter is a pretty
| low bar. What makes it art that anyone other than the
| creator would care about is the real-time rendering.
| Thats the art that people are interested in discussing.
|
| People do all sorts of walks as art. Whether thats Drag
| or a parade where the art is to make the walk
| interesting, or walking through the desert, laying on a
| bed of nails where the "walk" (or laying down) isn't
| necessarily interesting but the passion is.
|
| Pressing the Bing button is unlikely to evoke any passion
| except from Bing product management.
| xlii wrote:
| An interesting viewpoint for sure.
|
| I would dissect it though since it's not pure anger -
| frustration maybe, a complex one and caused by additional
| input. E.g. anxiety (you took what could be mine) or internal
| discord (after observing act of injustice).
|
| I'd argue that it's an act of random (again, like a cloud)
| and wouldn't treat it as art.
|
| But, if you'd park it sideways in front of the mall entrance,
| blocking it considerably, I'd consider it art (in my
| imagination I can see the headlines about artist making a
| statement against the overconsumption).
|
| Yet art is art, so everyone has their own definition. I'd
| prefer "positive" emotions, so awe, nostalgia, etc., but I
| don't see reason why anger should be excluded.
|
| <<proceeds to print "THIS IS AN ART INSTALLATION" message to
| put behind the windshield>>
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Art is something that grabs you and is also unique in the way
| it presents the subject. Also, there has to be skill involved,
| otherwise the whole thing goes up in smoke if it feels cheap or
| superficial.
|
| A banana on the wall is not art, because it involves an
| everyday object in an everyday setting.
|
| You might feel it's art, but if that's the case, then you
| haven't exposed yourself to true art enough to have a pool of
| experience or only seen so far superficial examples.
| skeaker wrote:
| > I always thought that art is all about emotions, both
| preserving and creating them.
|
| Is that not what was meant by "surfacing the inner world?"
| unwind wrote:
| I don't have anything to say about the artistic value, but as a
| part-time tool collector with dreams of being a handy person,
| this passage was the most interesting:
|
| _I used a puncher to cut a hole in the frame's cardboard for the
| camera (drills didn't work)._
|
| I would love some more detail, or just people's interpretations
| ... in what manner can a drill fail to "work" on cardboard? There
| can be issues with tearing, perhaps, that I think punching works
| around nicely.
| esperent wrote:
| It's too soft and layered, the drill tends to chew it up. I've
| had some luck putting duct tape over both sides and drilling
| through that, but for very clean holes you'd still probably
| have to clean the edges with a craft knife.
| bambax wrote:
| My guess is he tried with a wood drill bit, which will tear
| cardboard and make a big mess. For cardboard, or plastic, you
| need a metal drill bit.
| cataPhil wrote:
| That's right, sorry for not explaining further in the post!
| The cardboard was so thin than neither wood nor metal drill
| bits made a clean enough cut.
| kadoban wrote:
| I've had success by putting the material between two pieces
| of wood and drilling through it all. Ideally you clamp it,
| but you can also just kind of push down on it.
| quercus wrote:
| reminds me of the classic 80's "Take on Me" music video
| dbspin wrote:
| This is great and all, but just to address the 'art' issue. It's
| the creation of the 'mirror' that's artistic (to whatever extent
| running a copy of stable diffusion is a creative act), not
| looking in the mirror. The enormous number of affordances of 'AI
| art' will be like this - passively consumptive, creative only in
| the sense that chatting about a movie or playing a video game can
| be creative.
|
| All of us can already 'surface the inner world' (which I think is
| actually a pretty great definition of art, or part of one at
| least) - it's not skill based, it's practice based. Just start
| drawing, or writing or progaming with Processing or futzing with
| Ableton or what have you. Skill builds over time, expression
| needs no automation.
| Tepix wrote:
| > _The main issue with the current setup is the low frame rate._
|
| I think lowering the framerate to something between 0.3 to 1 fps
| might even be better!
| Mumps wrote:
| On the low framerate: why get a pi5 when a Jetson Nano could be
| had for about the same price?
| jansan wrote:
| What do you want a high frame rate for when looking at art?
| What is the frame rate of the Mona Lisa?
| ogou wrote:
| The interesting thing to me about this, and most other demos, is
| what people are simulating as examples of art. In this case, it's
| a very specific Picasso time period. Others tend to center on
| fantasy or well-known science fiction painters. This makes sense
| if your only exposure to art is the internet. Maybe a few
| Wikipedia sessions and a Google search for "modern art". The
| actual art world is in a huge transition right now and the idea
| of this Western dominance of art history is being completely re-
| evaluated. I haven't seen many demos of these tools, or AI art in
| general, that makes use of any actual modern art from the past
| 20-30 years. I definitely don't see examples from non-European
| art history (except Ukiyo-e or anime). That says a lot about what
| most of you expect from tools like this. It's not just technical,
| it's culturally normative. Think of it, (without looking it up)
| can any of you name any living artists that have been exhibited
| in the Museum of Modern Art in the past 30 years? I see so many
| strong opinions here about what art is or isn't, but wonder if
| anybody actually goes to museums or galleries to see what is
| considered modern art.
| xrd wrote:
| I would love to see you add a networking layer so that I could
| connect my frame to a random one somewhere in the universe. Then
| I could see another person through this style transfer. They
| could see me. It would be like an art chat roulette.
| tivert wrote:
| You should get a couple of old-work low voltage brackets and
| brush wall plates (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-Non-
| Metallic-Low-V..., https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-
| Electric-1-Gang-Brush...), and route the power cable through the
| wall. It would look much nicer.
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