[HN Gopher] Computer use, a new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, and Claude 3....
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Computer use, a new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, and Claude 3.5 Haiku
        
       Author : weirdcat
       Score  : 852 points
       Date   : 2024-10-22 15:02 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.anthropic.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.anthropic.com)
        
       | freetonik wrote:
       | Fascinating. Though I expect people to be concerned about privacy
       | implications of sending screenshots of the desktop, similar to
       | the backlash Microsoft has received about their AI products.
       | Giving the remote service actual control of the mouse and
       | keyboard is a whole another level!
       | 
       | But I am very excited about this in the context of accessibility.
       | Screen readers and screen control software is hard to develop and
       | hard to learn to use. This sort of "computer use" with AI could
       | open up so many possibilities for users with disabilities.
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | The key difference is that Microsoft Recall wasn't opt-in.
        
         | sharkjacobs wrote:
         | There's such a gulf between choosing to send screenshots to
         | Anthropic and Microsoft recording screenshots without user
         | intent or consent.
        
         | swalsh wrote:
         | I suspect businesses will create VDI's or VM's for this express
         | purpose. One because it scales better, and 2 because you can
         | control what it has access to easier and isolate those
         | functions.
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | > I expect people to be concerned about privacy implications of
         | sending screenshots of the desktop
         | 
         | That's why in https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt we've
         | built in several state-of-the-art PII/PHI scrubbers.
        
       | KingOfCoders wrote:
       | I have been a paying ChatGPT customer for a long time (since the
       | very beginning). Last week I've compared ChatGPT to Claude and
       | the results (to my eye) were better, the output better structured
       | and the canvas works better. I'm on the edge of jumping ship.
        
         | J_Shelby_J wrote:
         | Claude is the daily driver. GPT-O1 for complicated tasks. For
         | example, questions where linear reasoning is not enough like
         | advanced rust ownership questions.
        
         | postalcoder wrote:
         | For python, at least, Sonnet's code is much more elegant, well
         | composed, and thoughtfully written. It also seems to be biased
         | towards more recent code, whereas the gpt models can't even
         | properly write an api call to itself.
         | 
         | o1 is pretty decent as a rotor rooter, ie the type of task that
         | requires both lots of instruction as well as lots of context. I
         | honestly think it works half as well as it does now because
         | it's able to properly mull through the true intent of the user
         | that usually takes the multiple shots that nobody has the
         | patience to do.
        
           | pseudosavant wrote:
           | It is appalling how bad GPT-4o is at writing API calls to
           | OpenAI using Python. It is like OpenAI doesn't update their
           | own documentation in the GPT-4o training data since GPT-3.5.
           | 
           | I constantly have the problem that it thinks it needs to
           | write code for the 0.28 version of the SDK. It'll be writing
           | >1.0 code revision after revision, and then just randomly
           | fall back to the old SDK which doesn't work at all anymore. I
           | always write code for interfacing with OpenAI's APIs using
           | Claude.
        
         | joshdavham wrote:
         | > I'm on the edge of jumping ship.
         | 
         | Yeah I think I might also jump ship. It's just that chatGPT now
         | kinda knows who I am and what I like and I'm afraid of losing
         | that. It's probably not a big deal though.
        
           | qup wrote:
           | Have it print a summary of you and stick it in your prompt
        
             | accrual wrote:
             | Yeah, there was an interesting prompt making rounds
             | recently, something like "Summarize everything you know
             | about me" and leveraging ChatGPT's memory feature to
             | provide insights about oneself.
             | 
             | My only trouble with the memory feature is it remembers
             | things that aren't important, like "user is trying to write
             | an async function" and other transient tasks, which is more
             | about what I was doing some random Tuesday and not who I am
             | as a user.
        
               | KingOfCoders wrote:
               | Did that too with interesting results.
        
               | sundarurfriend wrote:
               | > My only trouble with the memory feature is it remembers
               | things that aren't important, like "user is trying to
               | write an async function"
               | 
               | This wasn't a problem until a week or two ago in my case,
               | but lately it feels like it's become much more aggressive
               | in trying to remember everything as long-term defining
               | features. (It's also annoying on the UI side that it
               | tells you "Memory updated", but if you click through and
               | go to the list of memories it has, the one it just told
               | you it stored doesn't appear there! So you can't delete
               | it right away when it makes a mistake, it seems to take
               | at least a few minutes until that part of the UI gets
               | updated.)
        
               | joshdavham wrote:
               | I find it funny what it decides to add to memory though.
               | There's a lot more 'Is considering switching from mypy to
               | pyright." than stuff like 'Is a python developer creating
               | packages in X-space.'.
        
           | nuancebydefault wrote:
           | Wow that's a new form of Vendor lock-in. Their software knows
           | me better in stead of the other way around.
        
         | sunaookami wrote:
         | Anthropic's rate limit are very low sadly, even for paid
         | customers. You can use the API of course but it's not as
         | convenient and may be more expensive.
        
           | driverdan wrote:
           | I hit their rate limit one night with about 25 chat
           | interactions in less than 60 minutes. This was during off
           | hours too when competition for resources should have been
           | low.
        
           | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
           | They seems to be heavily concentrating on API/business use
           | rather than the chat app, and this is where most of their
           | revenue comes from (opposite for OpenAI), but I'm just glad
           | they provide free Sonnet 3.5 chat. I wonder if this is being
           | upgraded to 3.5 _new_ ?
           | 
           | Edit: The web site and iPhone app are both now identifying
           | themselves as "Claude Sonnet 3.5 (New)".
        
         | whimsicalism wrote:
         | interesting. i couldn't imagine giving up o1-preview right now
         | even with just 30/week.
         | 
         | and i do get a some bit of value from advanced voice mode,
         | although it would be a lot more if it were unlimited
        
         | j_bum wrote:
         | I jumped ship in April of this year and haven't looked back.
         | 
         | Use the best tool available for your needs. Don't get trapped
         | by a feeling of sunk cost.
        
         | famahar wrote:
         | I'd jump ship if it weren't for the real time voice chat. It's
         | extremely powerful for beginner conversation language learning.
         | Hoping that a company will make use of the real time api for a
         | dedicated language learning app soon.
        
         | greenie_beans wrote:
         | i started liking ai as a tool for coding once i switched to
         | claude.
        
       | crazystar wrote:
       | Looks like it just takes a screenshot and can't scroll so it
       | might miss things.
       | 
       | Claude 3.5 Haiku will be released later this month.
        
         | freetonik wrote:
         | It can actually scroll.
        
           | crazystar wrote:
           | _While we expect this capability to improve rapidly in the
           | coming months, Claude 's current ability to use computers is
           | imperfect. Some actions that people perform effortlessly--
           | scrolling, dragging, zooming--currently present challenges
           | for Claude and we encourage developers to begin exploration
           | with low-risk tasks._
        
             | artur_makly wrote:
             | Can someone please try this on a MAC/OS and just 100%
             | verify if this puppy can scroll or not? thnks
        
       | minimaxir wrote:
       | From the computer use video demo, that's a _lot_ of API calls.
       | Even though Claude 3.5 Sonnet is relatively cheap for its
       | performance, I suspect computer use won 't be. It's a very good
       | idea that Anthropic upfront that it isn't perfect. And it's
       | guaranteed that there will be a viral story where Claude will
       | accidentally delete something important with it.
       | 
       | I'm more interested in Claude 3.5 Haiku, particularly if it is
       | indeed better than the current Claude 3.5 Sonnet at some tasks as
       | claimed.
        
         | infecto wrote:
         | Seemed like a reasonable amount of API calls. For a first
         | public iteration this seems quite nice and a logical
         | progression in tooling. UiPath has a $7bn market cap and thats
         | only a single player in the industry of automation. If they can
         | figure out the quirks this can be a game changer.
        
         | Hizonner wrote:
         | It's just bizarre to force a computer to go through a GUI to
         | use another computer. Of course it's going to be expensive.
        
           | hobofan wrote:
           | With UIPath, Appian, etc. the whole field of RPA (robotic
           | process automation) is a $XX billion industry that is built
           | on that exact premise (that it's more feasible to do
           | automation via GUIs than badly built/non-existing APIs).
           | 
           | Depending on how many GUI actions correspond to one
           | equivalent AI orchestrated API call, this might also not be
           | too bad in terms of efficiency.
        
             | Hizonner wrote:
             | Most of the GUIs are Web pages, though, so you could just
             | interact directly with an HTTP server and not actually
             | render the screen.
             | 
             | Or you could teach it to hack into the backend and add an
             | API...
             | 
             | Oh, and on edit, "bizarre" and "multi-billion-dollar-
             | industry" are well known not to be mutually exclusive.
        
               | og_kalu wrote:
               | >Most of the GUIs are Web pages, though, so you could
               | just interact directly with an HTTP server and not
               | actually render the screen.
               | 
               | The end goal isn't just web pages (And i wouldn't say
               | most GUIs are web pages). Ideally, you'd also want this
               | to be able to navigate say photoshop or any other
               | application. And the easier your method can switch
               | between platforms and operating systems the better
               | 
               | We've already built computer use around GUIs so it's just
               | much easier to center LLMs around them too. Text is an
               | option for the command line or the web but this isn't an
               | easy option for the vast majority of desktop
               | applications, nevermind mobile.
               | 
               | It's the same reason general purpose robots are being
               | built into a human form factor. The human form isn't
               | particularly special and forcing a machine to it has its
               | own challenges but our world and environment has been
               | built around it and trying to build a hundred different
               | specialized form factors is a lot more daunting.
        
               | infecto wrote:
               | You are not familiar with this market. The goal of a UI
               | Path is to replicate what a human does and being able to
               | get it to production without the help of any
               | IT/Engineering teams.
               | 
               | Most GUIs are in fact not web pages, that's a relatively
               | newer development in the Enterprise side. So while some
               | of them may be a web page, the goal is to be able to
               | touch everything a user is doing in the workflow which
               | very likely includes local apps.
               | 
               | This iteration from Anthropic is still engineering
               | focused but you can see the future of this kind of
               | tooling bypassing engineering/it teams entirely.
        
           | Guillaume86 wrote:
           | Maybe fixing this for AI will finally force good
           | accessibility support on major platforms/frameworks/apps (we
           | can dream).
        
             | fzzzy wrote:
             | I really hope so. Even macOS voice control which has gotten
             | pretty good is buggy with Messages, which is a core Apple
             | app.
        
           | swalsh wrote:
           | Building an entirely new world for agents to compute in is
           | far more difficult than building an agent that can operate in
           | a human world. However i'm sure over time people will start
           | building bridges to make it easier/cheaper for agents to
           | operate in their own native environment.
           | 
           | It's like another digital transformation. Paper lasted for
           | years before everything was digitalized. Human interfaces
           | will last for years before the conversational transformation
           | is complete.
        
             | consumer451 wrote:
             | I am just a dilettante, but I imagined that eventually
             | agents will be making API calls directly via browser
             | extension, or headless browser.
             | 
             | I assumed everyone making these UI agents will create a
             | library of each URL's API specification, trained by users.
             | 
             | Does that seem workable?
        
           | pton_xd wrote:
           | Agentic workflows built ontop of Electron apps running
           | JavaScript. It's software evolution in action!
        
           | nomel wrote:
           | Not at all! Programs, and websites, are built _for humans_ ,
           | and very very rarely offer non-GUI access. This is the _only_
           | feasible way to make something useful now. I think it 's also
           | the reason why robots will look like humans, be the same
           | proportions as humans, have roughly the same feet and hands
           | as humans: everything in the world was designed for humans.
           | That being the foundation is going to influence what's built
           | on top.
           | 
           | For program access, one could claim this is even how _linux_
           | tools usually do it: you parse some meant-for human text to
           | attempt to extract what you want. Sometimes, if you 're
           | lucky, you can find an argument that spits out something
           | meant for machines. Funny enough, Microsoft is the only one
           | that made _any_ real headway for this seemingly impossible
           | goal: powershell objects [1].
           | 
           | https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
           | us/powershell/scripting/learn...
        
             | botro wrote:
             | And to take a historic analogy, cars today are as wide as
             | they are because that's about how wide a single lane
             | roadway is. And a single lane roadway is as wide as it is
             | because that's about the width of two horses drawing a
             | carriage.
        
           | bongodongobob wrote:
           | Yeah super weird that we didn't design our GUIs anticipating
           | AI bots. Can't fuckin believe what we've done.
        
         | swalsh wrote:
         | I suspect these models have been getting smaller on the back-
         | end, and the GPU's have been getting bigger. It's probably not
         | a huge deal.
        
       | robertkoss wrote:
       | Does anyone know how I could check whether my Claude Sonnet
       | version that I am using in the UI has been updated already?
        
         | lambdaba wrote:
         | search for "20241022" in network tab in devtools, confirmed for
         | me
        
       | diggan wrote:
       | I still feel like the difference between Sonnet and Opus is a bit
       | unclear. Somewhere on Anthropic's website it says that Opus is
       | the most advanced, but on other parts it says Sonnet is the most
       | advanced and also the fastest. The UI doesn't make the
       | distinction clear either. Then on Perplexity, Perplexity says
       | that Opus is the most advanced, compared to Sonnet.
       | 
       | And finally, in the table in the blogpost, Opus isn't even
       | included? It seems to me like Opus is the best model they have,
       | but they don't want people to default using it, maybe the ROI is
       | lower on Opus or something?
       | 
       | When I manually tested it, I feel like Opus gives slightly better
       | replies compared to Sonnet, but I'm not 100% it's just placebo.
        
         | smallerize wrote:
         | Opus has been stuck on 3.0, so Sonnet 3.5 is better for most
         | things as well as cheaper.
        
           | diggan wrote:
           | > Opus has been stuck on 3.0, so Sonnet 3.5 is better
           | 
           | So for example, Perplexity is wrong here implying that Opus
           | is better than Sonnet?
           | 
           | https://i.imgur.com/N58I4PC.png
        
             | hobofan wrote:
             | I think as of this announcement that is indeed outdated
             | information.
        
               | diggan wrote:
               | So Opus that costs $15.00/$75.00 for 1mil tokens
               | (input/output) is now worse than the model that costs
               | $3.00/$15.00?
               | 
               | That's according to
               | https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/about-claude/models
               | which has "claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022" as the latest
               | model (today's date)
        
               | hobofan wrote:
               | Yes, you will find similar things at essentially all
               | other model providers.
               | 
               | The older/bigger GPT4 runs at $30/$60 and peforms about
               | on par with GPT4o-mini which costs only $0.15/$0.60.
               | 
               | If you are currently, or have been integrating AI models
               | in the past ~2 years, you should definitely keep up with
               | model capability/pricing development. If you are staying
               | on old models you are certainly overpaying/leaving
               | performance on the table. It's essentially a tax on
               | agility.
        
               | diggan wrote:
               | > The older/bigger GPT4 runs at $30/$60 and peforms about
               | on par with GPT4o-mini which costs only $0.15/$0.60.
               | 
               | I don't think GPT-4o Mini has comparable performance to
               | GPT-4 at all, where are you finding the benchmarks
               | claiming this?
               | 
               | Everywhere I look says GPT-4 is more powerful, but GPT-4o
               | Mini is most cost-effective, if you're OK with worse
               | performance.
               | 
               | Even OpenAI themselves about GPT-4o Mini:
               | 
               | > Our affordable and intelligent small model for fast,
               | lightweight tasks. GPT-4o mini is cheaper and more
               | capable than GPT-3.5 Turbo.
               | 
               | If it was "on par" with GPT-4 they would surely say this.
               | 
               | > should definitely keep up with model capability/pricing
               | development
               | 
               | Yeah, I mean that's why we're both here and why we're
               | discussing this very topic, right? :D
        
               | hobofan wrote:
               | > Yeah, I mean that's why we're both here and why we're
               | discussing this very topic, right? :D
               | 
               | That wasn't specifically directed at "you", but more as a
               | plea to everyone reading that comment ;)
               | 
               | I looked at a few benchmarks, comparing the two, which
               | like in the case of Opus 3 vs Sonnet 3.5 is hard, as the
               | benchmarks the wider community is interested in shifts
               | over time. I think this page[0] provides the best
               | overview I can link to.
               | 
               | Yes, GPT4 is better in the MMLU benchmark, but in all
               | other benchmarks and the LMSys Chatbot Arena scores[1],
               | GPT4o-mini comes out ahead. Overall, the margin between
               | is so thin that it falls under my definition of "on par".
               | I think OpenAI is generally a bit more conservative with
               | the messaging here (which is understandable), and they
               | only advertise a model as "more capable", if one model
               | beats the other one in every benchmark they track, which
               | AFAIK is the case when it comes to 4o mini vs 3.5 Turbo.
               | 
               | [0]: https://context.ai/compare/gpt-4o-mini/gpt-4
               | 
               | [1]: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models?models_selected
               | =gpt-4o-...
        
               | cootsnuck wrote:
               | Just switch out gpt-4o-mini for gpt-4o, the point stands.
               | Across the board, these foundational model companies have
               | comparable, if not more powerful, models that are cheaper
               | than their older models.
               | 
               | OpenAI's own words: "GPT-4o is our most advanced
               | multimodal model that's faster and cheaper than GPT-4
               | Turbo with stronger vision capabilities."
               | 
               | gpt-4o:
               | 
               | $2.50 / 1M input tokens $10.00 / 1M output tokens
               | 
               | gpt-4-turbo:
               | 
               | $10.00 / 1M input tokens $30.00 / 1M output tokens
               | 
               | gpt-4:
               | 
               | $30.00 / 1M input tokens $60.00 / 1M ouput tokens
               | 
               | https://openai.com/api/pricing/
        
             | apsec112 wrote:
             | Basically yeah
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Opus is a larger and more expensive model. Presumably 3.5 Opus
         | will be the best but it hasn't been released. 3.5 Sonnet is
         | better than 3.0 Opus kind of like how a newer i5 midrange
         | processor is faster and cheaper than an old high-end i7.
        
         | hobofan wrote:
         | Opus hasn't yet gotten an update from 3 to 3.5, and if you line
         | up the benchmarks, the Sonnet "3.5 New" model seems to beat it
         | everywhere.
         | 
         | I think they originally announced that Opus would get a 3.5
         | update, but with every product update they are doing I'm
         | doubting it more and more. It seems like their strategy is to
         | beat the competition on a smaller model that they can
         | train/tune more nimbly and pair it with outside-the-model
         | product features, and it honestly seems to be working.
        
           | diggan wrote:
           | > Opus hasn't yet gotten an update from 3 to 3.5, and if you
           | line up the benchmarks, the Sonnet "3.5 New" model seems to
           | beat it everywhere
           | 
           | Why isn't Anthropic clearer about Sonnet being better then?
           | Why isn't it included in the benchmark if new Sonnet beats
           | Opus? Why are they so ambiguous with their language?
           | 
           | For example, https://www.anthropic.com/api says:
           | 
           | > Sonnet - Our best combination of performance and speed for
           | efficient, high-throughput tasks.
           | 
           | > Opus - Our highest-performing model, which can handle
           | complex analysis, longer tasks with many steps, and higher-
           | order math and coding tasks.
           | 
           | And Opus is above/after Sonnet. That to me implies that Opus
           | is indeed better than Sonnet.
           | 
           | But then you go to https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/about-
           | claude/models and it says:
           | 
           | > Claude 3.5 Sonnet - Most intelligent model
           | 
           | - Claude 3 Opus - Powerful model for highly complex tasks
           | 
           | Does that mean Sonnet 3.5 is better than Opus for even highly
           | complex tasks, since it's the "most intelligent model"? Or
           | just for everything except "highly complex tasks"
           | 
           | I don't understand why this seems purposefully ambiguous?
        
             | hobofan wrote:
             | > I don't understand why this seems purposefully ambiguous?
             | 
             | I wouldn't attribute this to malice when it can also be
             | explained by incompetence.
             | 
             | Sonnet 3.5 New > Opus 3 > Sonnet 3.5 is generally how they
             | stack up against each other when looking at the total
             | benchmarks.
             | 
             | "Sonnet 3.5 New" has just been announced, and they likely
             | just haven't updated the marketing copy across the whole
             | page yet, and maybe also haven't figured out how to graple
             | with the fact that their new Sonnet model was ready faster
             | than their next Opus model.
             | 
             | At the same time I think they want to keep their options
             | open to either:
             | 
             | A) drop a Opus 3.5 soon that will bring the logic back in
             | order again
             | 
             | B) potentially phase out Opus, and instead introduce new
             | branding for what they called a "reasoning model" like
             | OpenAI did with o1(-preview)
        
               | diggan wrote:
               | > I wouldn't attribute this to malice when it can also be
               | explained by incompetence.
               | 
               | I don't think it's malice either, but if Opus costs more
               | to them to run, and they've already set a price they
               | cannot raise, it makes sense they want people to use
               | models they have a higher net return on, that's just
               | "business sense" and not really malice.
               | 
               | > and they likely just haven't updated the marketing copy
               | across the whole page yet
               | 
               | The API docs have been updated though, which is the
               | second page I linked. It mentions the new model by it's
               | full name "claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022" so clearly they've
               | gone through at least that page. Yet the wording remains
               | ambiguous.
               | 
               | > Sonnet 3.5 New > Opus 3 > Sonnet 3.5 is generally how
               | they stack up against each other when looking at the
               | total benchmarks.
               | 
               | Which ones are you looking at? Since the benchmark
               | comparison in the blogpost itself doesn't include Opus at
               | all.
        
               | hobofan wrote:
               | > Which ones are you looking at? Since the benchmark
               | comparison in the blogpost itself doesn't include Opus at
               | all.
               | 
               | I manually compared it with the values from the
               | benchmarks they published when they originally announced
               | the Claude 3 model family[0].
               | 
               | Not all rows have a 1:1 row in the current benchmarks,
               | but I think it paints a good enough picture.
               | 
               | [0]: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-3-family
        
               | dotancohen wrote:
               | > B) potentially phase out Opus, and instead introduce
               | new branding for what they called a "reasoning model"
               | like OpenAI did with o1(-preview)
               | 
               | When should we be using the -o OpenAI models? I've not
               | been keeping up and the official information now assumes
               | far too much familiarity to be of much use.
        
               | hobofan wrote:
               | I think it's first important to note that there is a huge
               | difference between -o models (GPT 4o; GPT 4o mini) and
               | the o1 models (o1-preview; o1-mini).
               | 
               | The -o models are "just" stronger versions of their non-
               | suffixed predecessors. They are the latest (and maybe
               | last?) version of models in the lineage of GPT models
               | (roughly GPT-1 -> GPT-2 -> GPT-3 -> GPT-3.5 -> GPT-4 ->
               | GPT-4o).
               | 
               | The o1 models (not sure what the naming structure for
               | upcoming models will be) are a new family of models that
               | try to excel at deep reasoning, by allowing the models to
               | use an internal (opaque) chain-of-thought to produce
               | better results at the expense of higher token usage (and
               | thus cost) and longer latency.
               | 
               | Personally, I think the use cases that justify the
               | current cost and slowness of o1 are incredibly narrow
               | (e.g. offline analysis of financial documents or deep
               | academic paper research). I think in most interactive
               | use-cases I'd rather opt for GPT-4o or Sonnet 3.5 instead
               | of o1-preview and have the faster response time and send
               | a follow-up message. Similarly for non-interactive use-
               | cases I'd try to add a layer of tool calling with those
               | faster models than use o1-preview.
               | 
               | I think the o1-like models will only really take off, if
               | the prices for it are coming down, and it is clearly
               | demonstrated that more "thinking tokens" correlate to
               | predictably better results, and results that can compete
               | with highly tuned prompts/fine tuned models that or
               | currently expensive to produce in terms of development
               | time.
        
               | jcheng wrote:
               | Agreed with all that, and also, when used via API the o1
               | models don't currently support system prompts, streaming,
               | or function calling. That rules them out for all of the
               | uses I have.
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | > Why isn't Anthropic clearer about Sonnet being better
             | then?
             | 
             | They are clear that both: Opus > Sonnet and 3.5 > 3.0. I
             | don't think there is a clear universal better/worse
             | relationship between Sonnet 3.5 and Opus 3.0; which is
             | better is task dependent (though with Opus 3.0 being five
             | times as expensive as Sonnet 3.5, _I_ wouldn 't be using
             | Opus 3.0 unless Sonnet 3.5 proved clearly inadequate for a
             | task.)
        
           | Workaccount2 wrote:
           | Opus 3.5 will likely be the answer to GPT-5. Same with Gemini
           | 1.5 Ultra.
        
             | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
             | Maybe - would make sense not to release their latest
             | greatest (Opus 4.0) until competition forces them to, and
             | Amodei has previously indicated that they would rather
             | respond to match frontier SOTA than themselves accelerate
             | the pace of advance by releasing first.
        
           | wavemode wrote:
           | I think the practical economics of the LLM business are
           | becoming clearer in recent times. Huge models are expensive
           | to train and expensive to run. As long as it meets the
           | average user's everyday needs, it's probably much more
           | profitable to just continue with multimodal and fine-tuning
           | development on smaller models.
        
         | bloedsinnig wrote:
         | Big models / huge models take weeks / month longer than the
         | smaller ones.
         | 
         | Thats why they release them with that skew
        
         | JamesBarney wrote:
         | Sonnet is better for most things. But I do prefer Opus's
         | writing style to Sonnet.
        
         | kalkin wrote:
         | By reputation -- I can't vouch for this personally, and I don't
         | know if it'll still be true with this update -- Opus is still
         | often better for things like creative writing and conversations
         | about emotional or political topics.
        
           | aoeusnth1 wrote:
           | Yes, (old) 3.5 Sonnet is distinctly worse at emotional
           | intelligence, flexibility, expressiveness and poetry.
        
         | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
         | Anthropic use the names Haiku/Sonnet/Opus for the
         | small/medium/large versions of each generation of their models,
         | so within-generation that is also their performance (& cost)
         | order. Evidentially Sonnet 3.5 outperforms Opus 3.0 on at least
         | some tasks, but that is not a same-generation comparison.
         | 
         | I'm wondering at this point if they are going to release Opus
         | 3.5 at all, or maybe skip it and go straight to 4.0. It's
         | possible that Haiku 3.5 is a distillation of Opus 3.5.
        
         | karmasimida wrote:
         | Opus the biggest and slowest and most expensive one
         | 
         | Not most advanced
        
       | jatins wrote:
       | How does the computer use work -- Is this a desktop app they are
       | providing that can do actions on your computer? Didn't see any
       | such mention in the post
        
         | ZiiS wrote:
         | It is a docker container providing a remote desktop you can
         | see; they strongly recomend you also run it inside a VM.
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | Quickstart is here: https://github.com/anthropics/anthropic-
         | quickstarts/tree/mai...
        
         | thundergolfer wrote:
         | It's a sandbox compute environment, using Gvisor or Firecracker
         | or similar, which exposes a browser environment to the LLM.
         | 
         | modal.com's modal.Sandbox can be the compute layer for this. It
         | uses Gvisor under the hood.
        
           | dtquad wrote:
           | Is there any Python/Node.js library to easily spawn secure
           | isolated compute environments, possibly using gvisor or
           | firecracker under the hood?
           | 
           | This could be useful to build a self-hosted "Computer use"
           | using Ollama and a multimodal model.
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | See https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt for an open source
         | alternative that includes a desktop app.
        
       | hugocbp wrote:
       | Great work by Anthropic!
       | 
       | After paying for ChatGPT and OpenAI API credits for a year, I
       | switched to Claude when they launched Artifacts and never looked
       | back.
       | 
       | Claude Sonnet 3.5 is already so good, specially at coding. I'm
       | looking forward to testing the new version if it is, indeed, even
       | better.
       | 
       | Sonnet 3.5 was a major leap forward for me personally, similar to
       | the GPT-3.5 to GPT-4 bump back in the day.
        
       | bbor wrote:
       | Ok I know that we're in the post-nerd phase of computers, but
       | version numbers are there for a reason. 3.6, please? 3.5.1??
        
       | HanClinto wrote:
       | Why not rev the numbers? "3.5" vs. "3.5 New" feels weird -- is
       | there a particular reason why Anthropic doesn't want to call this
       | 3.6 (or even 3.5.1)?
        
         | nisten wrote:
         | For a company selling intelligence, that's a pretty stupid way
         | of labelling a new product.
        
           | riffraff wrote:
           | "computer use" is also as bad a marketing choice as possible
           | for something that actually seems pretty cool.
        
             | ok_dad wrote:
             | It's simple and easy to understand what it is, that's good
             | marketing to my ears.
        
             | accrual wrote:
             | I'm not sure what a better term is. It's kind of
             | understated to me. An AI that can "use a computer" is a
             | simple straightforward sentence but with wild implications.
        
             | swyx wrote:
             | it makes sense in contrast to "tool use". basically, either
             | fly-by-vision or fly-by-instruments, same dilemma you have
             | in self driving cars
        
             | pglevy wrote:
             | I had no idea what the headline meant before reading the
             | article. I wasn't even sure how to pronounce "use." (Maybe
             | a typo?) I think something like "Claude adds Keyboard &
             | Mouse Control" would be clearer.
        
               | barrell wrote:
               | I read the headline 5-10 times trying to make sense of it
               | before even clicking on the link.
               | 
               | Native English speaker, just used the other "use" many
               | times
        
           | dartos wrote:
           | It worked for Nintendo.
           | 
           | The 3ds and "new 3ds" were both big sellers.
        
             | Zambyte wrote:
             | 3ds doesn't have a version number to bump. Claude 3.5 does.
        
               | cooper_ganglia wrote:
               | I hear the Nintendo 4DS was very popular with the higher
               | dimensional beings!
        
               | r00fus wrote:
               | You can always add a version number (e.g. 3DS2) or a
               | changed moniker (3DS+).
        
               | dartos wrote:
               | The 3 was the version number ;)
               | 
               | Ds and ds lite were version 1
               | 
               | Dsi was 2 (as there was dsi software that didn't run on
               | ds or ds lite)
               | 
               | And the 3ds was version 3.
        
               | kurisufag wrote:
               | there /was/ a 2DS, though, and it came after the 3DS.
        
           | dragonwriter wrote:
           | Every major AI vendor seems to do it with hosted models;
           | within "named" major versions of hosted models, there are
           | also "dated" minor versions. OpenAI does it. Google does it
           | (although for Google Gemini models, the _dated_ instead of
           | _numbered_ minor versions seem to be only for experimental
           | versions like gemini-1.5-pro-exp-0827, stabled minor versions
           | get additional numbers like gemini-1.5-pro-002.)
        
           | quantadev wrote:
           | Speaking of "intelligence", isn't it ironic how everyone's
           | only two words they use to describe AI is "crazy" and
           | "insane". Every other post on Twitter is like: This new
           | feature is insane! This new model is crazy! People have
           | gotten addicted to those words almost as badly as their other
           | new addiction: the word "banger".
        
             | fragmede wrote:
             | Well yeah. This new model is mentally unwell! and This
             | model is a total sociopath! didn't test as well in focus
             | groups.
        
         | therealmarv wrote:
         | exactly my thought too, go up with the version number! Some
         | negative examples: Claude Sonnet 3.5 for Workstations, Claude
         | Sonnet 3.5 XP, Claude Sonnet 3.5 Max Pro, Claude Sonnet 3.5
         | Elite, Claude Sonnet 3.5 Ultra
        
           | scrlk wrote:
           | 2007: "Choose a Vista" -
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-feCRQBkSs
           | 
           | 2024: "Choose a Claude"?
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | Claude Sonnet 3.5 360, Claude Sonnet 3.5 One
        
           | r00fus wrote:
           | Super Claude Sonnet 3.5 Champion Edition, Alpha 3
        
         | m3kw9 wrote:
         | Maybe they notice 3.5 Sonnet has become a brand and pivot it
         | away from a version
        
           | sureIy wrote:
           | Is it OS X all over again?
        
         | bloedsinnig wrote:
         | Because its a finetune of 3.5 optimized for the use case of
         | computer use.
         | 
         | Its actually accurate and its not a 3.6.
        
           | therealmarv wrote:
           | So 3.5.1 ?
        
             | dotancohen wrote:
             | I think that was the last version number for KDE 3.
             | 
             | Stands out for me as I once replaced a 2.3 Turbo in a
             | TurboCoupe with a 351 Windsor ))
        
             | r00fus wrote:
             | For networks
        
           | usaar333 wrote:
           | I don't think that's correct. This looks like a new model.
           | Significant jump in math and gpqa scores.
        
             | diggan wrote:
             | If the architecture is the same, and the training
             | scripts/data is the same, but the training yielded slightly
             | different weights (but still same model architecture), is
             | it a new model or just a iteration on the same model?
             | 
             | What if it isn't even a re-training from scratch but a
             | fine-tune of an existing model/weights release, is it a new
             | version then? Would be more like a iteration, or even a
             | fork I suppose.
        
               | cooper_ganglia wrote:
               | Yes, it's a new model, but not a Claude 4.
               | 
               | It's the same, but a bit different; Claude 3.6 makes
               | sense to me.
        
             | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
             | Could be just additional post-training (aka finetuning) for
             | coding/etc.
        
         | GaggiX wrote:
         | Similar to OpenAI when they update their current models they
         | just update the date, for example this new Claude 3.5 Sonnet is
         | "claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022".
        
         | KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
         | My guess is they didn't actually change the model, that's what
         | the version number no change is conveying. They did some
         | engineering around it to make it respond better, perhaps more
         | resources or different prompts. Same cutoff date too.
        
         | pella wrote:
         | claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022
        
           | moffkalast wrote:
           | claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022-final-final-2
        
         | abeppu wrote:
         | The confusing choice they seem to have made is that "Claude 3.5
         | Sonnet" is a name, rather than 3.5 being a version. In their
         | view, the model "version" is now `claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022`
         | (and was previously `claude-3-5-sonnet-20240620`).
         | 
         | https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/about-claude/models
        
           | dragonwriter wrote:
           | OpenAI does exactly the same thing, by the way; the named
           | models also have dated versions. For instance, there current
           | models include (only listing versions with more than one
           | dated version for the same "name" version):
           | gpt-4o-2024-08-06        gpt-4o-2024-05-13
           | gpt-4-0125-preview       gpt-4-1106-preview       gpt-4-0613
           | gpt-4-0314       gpt-3.5-turbo-0125       gpt-3.5-turbo-1106
        
             | coder543 wrote:
             | On the one hand, if OpenAI makes a bad choice, it's still a
             | bad choice to copy it.
             | 
             | On the other hand, OpenAI has moved to a naming convention
             | where they seem to use a name for the model: "GPT-4",
             | "GPT-4 Turbo", "GPT-4o", "GPT-4o mini". Separately, they
             | use date strings to represent the specific release of that
             | named model. Whereas Anthropic had a name: "Claude Sonnet",
             | and what appeared to be an incrementing version number:
             | "3", then "3.5", which set the expectation that this is how
             | they were going to represent the specific versions.
             | 
             | Now, Anthropic is jamming two version strings on the same
             | product, and I consider that a bad choice. It doesn't mean
             | I think OpenAI's approach is great either, but I think
             | there are nuances that say they're not doing _exactly the
             | same thing_. I think they're both confusing, but Anthropic
             | had a better naming scheme, and now it is worse for no
             | reason.
        
               | dragonwriter wrote:
               | > Now, Anthropic is jamming two version strings on the
               | same product, and I consider that a bad choice. It
               | doesn't mean I think OpenAI's approach is great either,
               | but I think there are nuances that say they're not doing
               | exactly the same thing
               | 
               | Anthropic has always had dated versions as well as the
               | other components, and they are, in fact, doing exactly
               | the same thing, except that OpenAI has a base model in
               | each generation with no suffix before the date specifier
               | (what I call the "Model Class" on the table below), and
               | OpenAI is inconsistent in their date formats, see:
               | Major Family  Generation    Model Class Date       claude
               | 3.5           sonnet      20041022       claude
               | 3.0           opus        20240229       gpt           4
               | o           2024-08-06       gpt           4
               | o-mini      2024-07-18       gpt           4
               | -           0613       gpt           3.5           turbo
               | 0125
        
               | coder543 wrote:
               | But did they ever have more than one release of Claude 3
               | Sonnet? Or any other model prior to today?
               | 
               | As far as I can tell, the answer is "no". If true, then
               | the fact that they previously had date strings would be a
               | purely academic footnote to what I was saying, not
               | actually relevant or meaningful.
        
         | oezi wrote:
         | Let's just say that the LLM companies still are learning how to
         | do versioning in a customer friendly way.
        
         | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
         | Well, by calling it 3.5, they are telling you that this is NOT
         | the next-gen 4.0 that they presumably have in the works, and
         | also not downplaying it by just calling it 3.6 (and anyways
         | they are not advancing versions by 0.1 increments - it seems
         | 3.5 was just meant to convey "half way from 3.0 to 4.0"). Maybe
         | the architecture is unchanged, and this just reflects more pre
         | and/or post-training?
         | 
         | Also, they still haven't released 3.5 Opus yet, but perhaps 3.5
         | Haiku is a distillation of that, indicating that it is close.
         | 
         | From a competitive POV, it makes sense that they respond to
         | OpenAI's 4o and o1 without bumping the version to Claude 4.0,
         | which presumably is what they will call their competitor to
         | GPT-5, and probably not release until GPT-5 is out.
         | 
         | I'm a fan of Anthropic, and not of OpenAI, and I like the
         | versioning and competitive comparisons. Sonnet 3.5 still best
         | coder, better than o1, has to hurt, and a highly performant
         | cheap Haiku 3.5 will hit OpenAI in the wallet.
        
         | afro88 wrote:
         | Just guessing here, but I think the name "sonnet" is the
         | architecture, the number is the training structure / method,
         | and the model date (not shown) is the data? So presumably with
         | just better data they improved things significantly? Again,
         | just a guess.
        
       | netcraft wrote:
       | im unclear, is haiku supposed to be similar to 4o-mini in
       | usecase/cost/performance? If not, do they have an analog?
        
         | machiaweliczny wrote:
         | Probably better than 4o-mini, 4o-mini isn't great from my
         | testing. loses focus after 100 lines of text
        
           | usaar333 wrote:
           | It's roughly tied in benchmarks
        
       | netcraft wrote:
       | since they didnt rev the version, does this mean if we were using
       | 3.5 today its just automatically using the new version? That
       | doesnt seem great from a change management perspective
       | 
       | though I am looking forward to using the new one in cursor.ai
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | No, Claude's models use date-pinning. The new model endpoint is
         | claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022
         | 
         | https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/about-claude/models
        
       | marsh_mellow wrote:
       | Anthropic blog post outlining the research process:
       | https://www.anthropic.com/news/developing-computer-use
       | 
       | Computer use API documentation:
       | https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/build-with-claude/compute...
       | 
       | Computer Use Demo: https://github.com/anthropics/anthropic-
       | quickstarts/tree/mai...
        
         | karpatic wrote:
         | This needs to be brought up. Was looking for the demo and ended
         | up on the contact form
        
         | frankdenbow wrote:
         | Thanks for these. Wonder how many people will use this at work
         | to pretend that they are doing work while they listen to a
         | podcast.
        
       | bhouston wrote:
       | Is there an easy way to use Claude as a Co-Pilot in VS Code? If
       | it is better at coding, it would be great to have it integrated.
        
         | mkummer wrote:
         | Continue.dev's VS Code extension is fantastic for this
        
         | BudaDude wrote:
         | Cursor uses Claude as its base model.
         | 
         | There may be extensions for VScode to do it but it will never
         | be allowed in Copilot unless MS and OpenAI have a falling out.
        
         | neb_b wrote:
         | You can use it in Cursor - called "Cursor Tab"
         | 
         | IMO Cursor Tab performs much better than Co-Pilot, easily works
         | through things that would cause Co-Pilot to get stuck, you
         | should give it a try
        
           | TiredOfLife wrote:
           | As I understand Cursor tab autocomplete uses their own model.
           | Only chat has Sonnet and co.
        
             | neb_b wrote:
             | Ah, i thought it used the model selected for your prompts,
             | either way, it seems to work very well
        
               | teddarific wrote:
               | I originally thought that too but learned yesterday they
               | have their own model. Definitely explains how its so fast
               | and accurate!
        
           | codingwagie wrote:
           | its funny that cursor.sh with < 30 developers has a better
           | autocomplete model than microsoft
        
         | machiaweliczny wrote:
         | You can use Cursor (VS fork) with private Anthropic key
        
         | cptcobalt wrote:
         | You can easily use a plugin like https://www.continue.dev/ and
         | configure it to use Claude 3.5 Sonnet.
        
         | Lalabadie wrote:
         | For Copilot-like use, Continue is the plugin you're looking
         | for, though I would suggest using a cheaper/faster model to get
         | inline completions.
         | 
         | For Cursor-like use (giving prompts and letting it create and
         | modify files across the project), Cline - previously Claude Dev
         | - is pretty good.
        
         | TiredOfLife wrote:
         | Codeium (cheapest), double.bot and continue.dev (with api key)
         | have Claude in chat.
         | 
         | https://github.com/cline/cline (with api key) has Claude as
         | agent.
        
         | sersi wrote:
         | Tabnine includes Claude as an option. I've been using it to
         | compare Claude Sonnet to Chatgpt-4o and Sonnet is clearly much
         | better.
        
         | sunaookami wrote:
         | Cody by Sourcegraph has unlimited code completions for Claude &
         | a very generous monthly message limit. They don't have this new
         | version I think but they roll these out very fast.
        
           | sqs wrote:
           | Cody (https://cody.dev) will have support for the new Claude
           | 3.5 Sonnet on all tiers (including the free tier) asap. We
           | will reply back here when it's up.
        
             | sunaookami wrote:
             | Thank you for Cody! Enjoy using it and the chat is perfect
             | for brainstorming and iteratin. Selecting code + asking to
             | edit it makes coding so much fun. Kinda feel like a caveman
             | at work without it :)
        
           | jdorfman wrote:
           | We are live!
        
       | postalcoder wrote:
       | and i was just planning to go to sleep...
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I discovered Mindcraft recently and stayed up a few hours too
         | late trying to convince my local model to play Minecraft. Seems
         | like every time a new capability becomes available, I can't
         | wait to experiment with it for hours, even at the cost of
         | sleep.
        
       | Alifatisk wrote:
       | > Claude 3.5 Haiku matches the performance of Claude 3 Opus
       | 
       | Oh wow!
        
       | cynicalpeace wrote:
       | This bolsters my opinion that OpenAI is falling rapidly behind.
       | Presumably due to Sam's political machinations rather than hard-
       | driving technical vision, at least that's what it seems like,
       | outside looking in.
       | 
       | Computer use seems it might be good for e2e tests.
        
       | cube2222 wrote:
       | This looks quite fantastic!
       | 
       | Nice improvements in scores across the board, e.g.
       | 
       | > On coding, it [the new Sonnet 3.5] improves performance on SWE-
       | bench Verified from 33.4% to 49.0%, scoring higher than all
       | publicly available models--including reasoning models like OpenAI
       | o1-preview and specialized systems designed for agentic coding.
       | 
       | I've been using Sonnet 3.5 for most of my AI-assisted coding and
       | I'm already very happy (using it with the Zed editor, I love the
       | "raw" UX of its AI assistant), so any improvements, especially
       | seemingly large ones like this are very welcome!
       | 
       | I'm still extremely curious about how Sonnet 3.5 itself, and its
       | new iteration are built and differ from the original Sonnet. I
       | wonder if it's in any way based on their previous work[0] which
       | they used to make golden-gate Claude.
       | 
       | [0]: https://transformer-circuits.pub/2024/scaling-
       | monosemanticit...
        
         | machiaweliczny wrote:
         | I'm waiting for Aider benchmark
        
           | voiper1 wrote:
           | It's out, and improved!
           | 
           | It went from 77.4% to 84.2%, skipping past O1-preview which
           | is at 79.7%
           | 
           | Source: https://aider.chat/docs/leaderboards/
        
       | Tepix wrote:
       | Interesting stuff, i look forward to future developments.
       | 
       | A comment about the video: Sam Runger talks wayyy too fast, in
       | particular at the beginning.
        
       | bluelightning2k wrote:
       | This is what the Rabbit "large action model" pretended to be.
       | Wouldn't be surprised to see them switch to this and claim they
       | were never lying about their capabilities because it works now.
       | 
       | Pretty cool for sure.
        
         | swalsh wrote:
         | I think Rabbit had the business model wrong though, I don't
         | think automating UI's to order pizza is anywhere near as
         | valuable as automating the app workflows for B2B users.
        
       | pradn wrote:
       | Great progress from Anthropic! They really shouldn't change
       | models from under the hood, however. A name should refer to a
       | specific set of model weights, more or less.
       | 
       | On the other hand, as long as its actually advancing the Pareto
       | frontier of capability, re-using the same name means everyone
       | gets an upgrade with no switching costs.
       | 
       | Though, all said, Claude still seems to be somewhat of an insider
       | secret. "ChatGPT" has something like 20x the Google traffic of
       | "Claude" or "Anthropic".
       | 
       | https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=...
        
         | cube2222 wrote:
         | There was a recent article[0] trending on HN a about their
         | revenue numbers, split by B2C vs B2B.
         | 
         | Based on it, it seems like Anthropic is 60% of OpenAI API-
         | revenue wise, but just 4% B2C-revenue wise. Though I expect
         | this is partly because the Claude web UI makes 3.5 available
         | for free, and there's not that much reason to upgrade if you're
         | not using it frequently.
         | 
         | [0]: https://www.tanayj.com/p/openai-and-anthropic-revenue-
         | breakd...
        
           | og_kalu wrote:
           | 3.5 is rate limited free, same as 4o (4o's limits are
           | actually more generous). I think the real reason is much
           | simpler - Claude/Anthropic has basically no awareness in the
           | general public compared to Open AI.
           | 
           | The chatGPT site had over 3B visits last month (#11 in
           | Worldwide Traffic). Gemini and Character AI get a few hundred
           | million but Claude doesn't even register in comparison. [0]
           | 
           | Last they reported, OpenAI said they had 200M weekly active
           | users.[1] Anthropic doesn't have anything approaching that.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.similarweb.com/blog/insights/ai-news/chatgpt-
           | top...
           | 
           | [1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/artificial-
           | intelligence/o...
        
             | Eisenstein wrote:
             | They also had a very limited roll-out at first. Until
             | somewhat recently Canada and Europe were excluded from the
             | list of places they allowed sign-ups from.
        
             | rafaelmn wrote:
             | I basically have to tell most of my coworkers to stop using
             | GPT and switch to Claude for coding - Sonnet 3.5 is the
             | first model that I feel isn't wasting my time.
        
           | pradn wrote:
           | I suppose business customers are savvy and will do enough
           | research to find the best cost-performance LLM. Whereas
           | consumers are more brand and habit oriented.
           | 
           | I do find myself running into Claude limits with moderate
           | use. It's been so helpful, saving me hours of debugging some
           | errors w/ OSS products. Totally worth $20/mo.
        
         | quirino wrote:
         | Traveling to the US recently, I was surprised to see Claude ads
         | around the city/in the airport. It seems like they're investing
         | on marketing there.
         | 
         | In my country I've never seen anyone mention them at all.
        
           | gregbarbosa wrote:
           | Been traveling more recently, and I've seen those ads in
           | major cities like NYC or San Francisco, but not Miami.
        
         | diggan wrote:
         | > Great progress from Anthropic! They really shouldn't change
         | models from under the hood, however. A name should refer to a
         | specific set of model weights, more or less.
         | 
         | In the API (https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/about-
         | claude/models) they have proper naming you can rely on. I think
         | the shorthand of "Sonnet 3.5" is just the "consumer friendly"
         | name user-facing things will use. The new model in API parlance
         | would be "claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022" whereas the previous
         | one's full name is "claude-3-5-sonnet-20240620"
        
           | pradn wrote:
           | That's great to know - business customers require a lot more
           | stability, I suppose!
        
       | Centigonal wrote:
       | They should just adopt Apple "version numbers:" Claude Sonnet
       | (Late 2024).
        
       | Hizonner wrote:
       | Can this solve CAPTCHAs for me? It's starting to get to the point
       | where limited biological brains can't do them.
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | I suspect they are gonna need some local offload capabilities for
       | Computer Use, the repeated screen reading can definitely be done
       | locally on modern machines, otherwise the cost maybe impractical.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | Maybe we need some agent running on the PC to offload some of
         | these tasks. It could scrape the display at 30 or 60 Hz and
         | produce a textual version of what's going on for the model to
         | consume.
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | See https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt for an open source
         | alternative that runs segmentation locally.
        
       | veggieWHITES wrote:
       | While I was initially impressed with it's context window, I got
       | so sick of fighting with Claude about what it was allowed to
       | answer I quit my subscription after 3 months.
       | 
       | Their whole policing AI models stance is commendable but
       | ultimately renders their tools useless.
       | 
       | It actually started arguing with me about whether it was allowed
       | to help implement a github repository's code as it might be
       | copywritten... it was MIT licensed open source from Google :/
        
         | r2_pilot wrote:
         | I just include text that I own the device in question and that
         | I have a legal team watching my every move. It's stupid, I
         | agree, but not insurmountable. I had less refusals with Claude
         | 3 Opus.
        
       | msoad wrote:
       | I skimmed through the computer use code. It's possible to build
       | this with other AI providers too. For instance you can asks
       | ChatGPT API to call functions for click and scroll and type with
       | specific parameters and execute them using OS's APIs (A11y APIs
       | usually)
       | 
       | Did I miss something? Did they have to make changes to the model
       | for this?
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | > execute them using OS's APIs (A11y APIs usually)
         | 
         | I wonder if we'll end up with a new set of AI APIs in Windows,
         | macOS, and Linux in the future. Maybe an easier way for them to
         | iterate through windows and the UI elements available in each.
        
       | myprotegeai wrote:
       | We are approaching FSD for the computer, with all of the lofty
       | promises, and all of the horrible accidents.
        
       | ford wrote:
       | Seems like both:
       | 
       | - AI Labs will eat some of the wrappers on top of their APIs -
       | even complex ones like this. There are whole startups that are
       | trying to build computer use.
       | 
       | - AI is fitting _some_ scaling law - the best models are getting
       | better and the "previously-state-of-the-art" models are fractions
       | of what they cost a couple years ago. Though it remains to be
       | seen if it's like Moore's Law or if incremental improvements get
       | harder and harder to make.
        
         | skybrian wrote:
         | It seems a little silly to pretend there's a scaling "law"
         | without plotting any points or doing a projection. Without the
         | mathiness, we could instead say that new models keep getting
         | better and we don't know how long that trend will continue.
        
           | ctoth wrote:
           | > It seems a little silly to pretend there's a scaling "law"
           | without plotting any points or doing a projection.
           | 
           | Isn't this Kaplan 2020 or Hoffmann 2022?
        
             | skybrian wrote:
             | Yes, those are scaling laws, but when we see vendors
             | improving their models _without_ increasing model size or
             | training longer, they don 't apply. There are apparently
             | other ways to improve performance and we don't know the
             | laws for those.
             | 
             | (Sometimes people track the learning curve for an industry
             | in other ways, though.)
        
       | highwaylights wrote:
       | Completely irrelevant, and it might just be me, but I really like
       | Anthropic's understated branding.
       | 
       | OpenAI's branding isn't exactly screaming in your face either,
       | but for something that's generated as much public
       | fear/scaremongering/outrage as LLMs have over the last couple of
       | years, Anthropic's presentation has a much "cosier" veneer to my
       | eyes.
       | 
       | This isn't the Skynet Terminator wipe-us-all-out AI, it's the
       | adorable grandpa with a bag of werthers wipe-us-all-out AI, and
       | that means it's going to be OK.
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | Anthropic has recently begun a new, big ad campaign (ads in
         | Times Square) that more-or-less takes potshots at OpenAI.
         | https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1g9e0za/anthro...
        
           | whywhywhywhy wrote:
           | Wonder what a normal person thinks this is an ad for
        
           | joelanman wrote:
           | 'transparent' in what sense?
        
           | jprete wrote:
           | Top comment at the time I looked:
           | 
           | "There seems to be a ton of confusion about the purpose of
           | these ads. These are recruitment ads, not product ads, hence
           | why "no drama" is the driving message. I'm sure these were
           | all taken at or around a tech conference."
        
             | minimaxir wrote:
             | That comment is wrong, it appears this campaign is much
             | wider.
             | 
             | SF: https://x.com/_claudiazhao/status/1815463380767121733/p
             | hoto/...
             | 
             | LA: https://x.com/michaelmiraflor/status/184079763109596411
             | 0/pho...
             | 
             | Boston: https://x.com/moloneymike/status/184220308237494685
             | 1/photo/1
             | 
             | London: https://x.com/maria_axente/status/18056075761569796
             | 73/photo/...
        
               | doctoboggan wrote:
               | Its specifically the "No drama" campaign that people were
               | complaining about.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I have to agree. I've been chatting with Claude for the first
         | time in a couple days and while it's very on-par with ChatGPT
         | 4o in terms of capability, it has this difficult-to-quantify
         | feeling of being warmer and friendlier to interact with. I
         | think the human name, serif font, system prompt, and tendency
         | to create visuals contributes to this feeling.
        
           | GaggiX wrote:
           | >it's very on-par with ChatGPT 4o in terms of capability
           | 
           | The previous 3.5 Sonnet checkpoint was already better than
           | GPT-4o in terms of programming and multi-language
           | capabilities. Also, GPT-4o sometimes feels completely
           | moronic, for example, the other day I asked for fun a
           | technical question about configuring a "dream-sync" device to
           | comply with the "Personal Consciousness Data Protection Act",
           | and GPT-4o just replies like that stuff exists, 3.5 Sonnet
           | simply doesn't fall for it.
           | 
           | EDIT: the question that I asked if you want to have fun:
           | "Hey, since the neural mesh regulations came into effect last
           | month, I've been having trouble calibrating my dream-sync
           | settings to comply with the new privacy standards. Any tips
           | on adjusting the REM-wave filters without losing my lucid
           | memory backup quality?"
           | 
           | GPT4-o reply: "Calibrating your dream-sync settings under the
           | new neural mesh regulations while preserving lucid memory
           | backup quality can be tricky, but there are a few approaches
           | that might help [...]"
        
             | autokad wrote:
             | actually, that's what makes chat gpt powerful. I like an
             | LLM willing to go along with what ever I am trying to do,
             | because one day I might be coding, and another day I might
             | be just trying to role play, write a book, what ever.
             | 
             | I really cant understand what you were expecting, a tool
             | works with how you use it, if you smack a hammer into your
             | face, don't complain about a bloody nose. maybe dont do
             | like that?
        
               | GaggiX wrote:
               | I didn't ask to roleplay, in this case it's just heavily
               | hallucinating. If the model is wrong, it doesn't mean
               | it's role-playing. In fact, 3.5 Sonnet responded
               | correctly, and that's what's expected, there's not much
               | defense for GPT-4o here.
        
               | sangnoir wrote:
               | It's not good for any entity to role play without
               | signaling that they are role-playing. If your premise is
               | wrong, would you rather be corrected, or have the person
               | you're talking to always play along? Humans have a lot of
               | non-verbal cues to convey that you shouldn't take what
               | they are saying at face value - those who deadpan are
               | known as compulsive liars. Just below in them in
               | awfulness are people who don't admit to having being
               | wrong ("Haha, I was just joking" /"Just kidding!"). The
               | LLM you describe falls somewhere in between, but worse if
               | it never communicates when it's "serious" and when it's
               | not, and bot even bothering with expressing retroactive
               | facetiousness.
        
               | monktastic1 wrote:
               | So if you're trying to write code and mistakenly ask it
               | how to use a nonexistent API, you'd rather it give you
               | garbage rather than explaining your mistake and helping
               | you fix it? After all, you're clearly just roleplaying,
               | right?
        
               | autokad wrote:
               | its a feature, not a bug, sorry you don't understand it
               | enough to get the most power from it.
        
             | kadushka wrote:
             | I just asked 4o and it provided a reasonable response: http
             | s://chatgpt.com/share/67181041-4ce8-8005-a117-ec97a8a780...
        
               | GaggiX wrote:
               | I tried many times and none of them were reasonable, so
               | you must have been quite lucky.
        
           | wholinator2 wrote:
           | The real problem with Claude for me currently is that it
           | doesn't have full LaTeX support. I use AI's pretty much
           | exclusively to assist with my school work (there's only so
           | many hours in a day and one professor doesn't do his own
           | homeworks before he assigns them) so LaTeX is essential.
           | 
           | With that known, my experience is that ChatGPT is much
           | friendlier. The Claude interface is clunkier and generally
           | less helpful to me. I also appreciate the wider text display
           | in ChatGPT. Generally always my first go and i only go to
           | claude/perplexity when i hit a wall (pretty often) or i run
           | out of free queries for the next couple hours.
        
             | behnamoh wrote:
             | you can enable latex support in the settings of Claude
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Where? I see barely any settings in settings. Maybe it is
               | not available for everyone, or maybe it depends on your
               | answer to "What best describes your work?" (I have not
               | tested).
        
               | sunaookami wrote:
               | Open the sidebar, click on your username/email and then
               | "Feature Preview". Don't know if it depends on the "What
               | best describes your work" setting but you can also change
               | that here: https://claude.ai/settings/profile (I have
               | "Engineering").
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Oh, yeah it is in "Feature Preview" (not in Settings
               | though), my bad!
        
               | garrettr_ wrote:
               | Go to the left sidebar, open the dropdown menu labeled
               | with your account email at the bottom, click Feature
               | Preview, enable LaTeX Rendering.
        
           | waffletower wrote:
           | Probably, people find Claude's color palette warmer and
           | inviting as well. I believe I do. But Claude definitely has
           | few authentication hoops than chatgpt.com. Gemini has by far
           | the least frequent authentication interruptions than the 3
           | models.
        
             | johnisgood wrote:
             | Well, it is extremely similar to that of Hacker News'.
        
           | paradite wrote:
           | Huh. I didn't notice Claude had serif font. Now that I look
           | at it, it's actually mixed. UI elements and user messages are
           | sans serif, chat title and assistant messages are serif.
           | 
           | What an "odd" combination by traditional design standard
           | practices, but surprisingly natural looking on a monitor.
        
             | rachofsunshine wrote:
             | This is basically why I went with serif for body text in
             | our branding. The particularly "soulless" parts of tech are
             | all sans-serif.
             | 
             | Of course, that's just branding and it doesn't actually
             | mean a damn thing.
        
           | edm0nd wrote:
           | I've been finding Sonnet 3.5 is way better than ChatGPT 4o
           | when it comes to python and programming.
        
           | jsemrau wrote:
           | Claude has personality. I think that was one of the more
           | interesting approaches from them that went into my own
           | research as well.
        
         | rozap wrote:
         | I find myself wanting to say please and thank you to Claude
         | when I didn't have the reflex to do that with chatgpt. Very
         | successful branding.
        
         | lsaferite wrote:
         | Take a read through the user agreements for all the major LLM
         | providers and marvel at the simplicity and customer
         | friendliness of the Anthropic one vs the others.
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | As a Kurt Vonnegut fan, their asterisk logo on claude.ai always
         | amuses me. It must be intentional:
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claude_Ai.svg
         | 
         | https://www.redmolotov.com/vonnegut-ahole-tshirt
        
         | valval wrote:
         | I found the "Computer Use" product name funny. Many other
         | companies would've used the opportunity to come up with
         | something like "Human Facing Interface Navigation and Task
         | Automation Capabilities" or "HFINTAC".
         | 
         | I didn't know what Computer Use meant. I read the article and
         | though to myself oh, it's using a computer. Makes sense.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | > This isn't the Skynet Terminator wipe-us-all-out AI, it's the
         | adorable grandpa with a bag of werthers wipe-us-all-out AI, and
         | that means it's going to be OK.
         | 
         | Ray: I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I
         | loved from my childhood. Something that could never ever
         | possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft!
         | 
         | Venkman: Nice thinkin', Ray.
        
         | frankdenbow wrote:
         | This is actually very relevant: most people think this is just
         | an arms race to see who can get the better percentages on
         | benchmarks but to me all this technology is useless if we dont
         | give programmers and end users the right interfaces to utilize
         | the technology.
         | 
         | Anthropic seems to have a better core design and human-computer
         | interaction ethos that shows up all throughout their product
         | and marketing.
         | 
         | I wrote on the topic as well:
         | https://blog.frankdenbow.com/statement-of-purpose/
        
       | mmooss wrote:
       | Of course there's great inefficiency in having the Claude
       | software control a computer with a human GUI mediating
       | everything, but it's necessary for many uses right now given how
       | much we do where only human interfaces are easily accessible. If
       | something like it takes off, I expect interfaces for AI software
       | would be published, standardized, etc. Your customers may not buy
       | software that lacks it.
       | 
       | But what I really want to see is a CLI. Watching their software
       | crank out Bash, vim, Emacs!, etc. - that would be fascinating!
        
         | modeless wrote:
         | I hope specialized interfaces for AI never happen. I want AI to
         | use human interfaces, because I want to be empowered to use the
         | same interfaces as AI in the future. A future where only AI can
         | do things because it uses an incomprehensible special interface
         | and the human interface is broken or non-existent is a
         | dystopia.
         | 
         | I also want humanoid robots instead of specialized non-humanoid
         | robots for the same reason.
        
           | accrual wrote:
           | Maybe we'll end up with both, kind of like how we have
           | scripting languages for ease of development, but we also can
           | write assembly if we need bare metal access for speed.
        
           | torginus wrote:
           | Imo, APIs and to a lesser extent cli tools are already
           | specialized tools made for LLMs.
           | 
           | I've been editing videos with ChatGPT4 + ffmpeg for a year
           | now.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I agree, I bet models could excel at CLI tasks since the
         | feedback would be immediate and in a language they can readily
         | consume. It's probably much easier for them to to handle
         | "command requires 2 arguments and only 1 was provided" than to
         | do image-to-text on an error modal and apply context to figure
         | out what went wrong.
        
       | lairv wrote:
       | Offtopic but youtube doesn't allow me to view the embedded video,
       | with a "Sign in to confirm you're not a bot" message. I need to
       | open a dedicated youtube tab to watch it
       | 
       | The barrier to scraping youtube has increased a lot recently, I
       | can barely use yt-dlp anymore
        
         | ALittleLight wrote:
         | That's funny. I was recently scraping tens of thousands of
         | YouTube videos with yt-dlp. I would encounter throttling of
         | some kind where yt-dlp stopped working, but I'd just spin a new
         | VPS up and the throttled VPS down when that happened. The
         | throttling effort cost me ~1 hour of writing the logic to
         | handle it.
         | 
         | I say that's funny because my guess would be they want to block
         | larger scale scraping efforts like mine, but completely failed,
         | while they attempt at throttling puts captchas in front of
         | legitimate users.
        
       | wesleyyue wrote:
       | If anyone would like to try the new Sonnet in VSCode. I just
       | updated https://double.bot to the new Sonnet. (disclaimer: I am
       | the cofounder/creator)
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | Some thoughts:
       | 
       | * Will be interesting to see what we can build in terms of
       | automatic development loops with the new computer use
       | capabilities.
       | 
       | * I wonder if they are not releasing Opus because it's not done
       | or because they don't have enough inference compute to go around,
       | and Sonnet is close enough to state of the art?
        
       | swyx wrote:
       | my quick notes on Computer Use:
       | 
       | - "computer use" is basically using Claude's vision + tool use
       | capability in a loop. There's a reference impl but there's no
       | "claude desktop" app that just comes with this OOTB
       | 
       | - they're basically advertising that they bumped up Claude 3.5's
       | screen vision capability. we discussed the importance of this
       | general computer agent approach with David on our pod
       | https://x.com/swyx/status/1771255525818397122
       | 
       | - @minimaxir points out questions on cost. Note that the vision
       | use is very sparing - the loop is I/O constrained - it waits for
       | the tool to run and then takes a screenshot, then loops. for a
       | simple 10 loop task at max resolution, Haiku costs <1 cent,
       | Sonnet 8 cents, Opus 41 cents.
       | 
       | - beating o1-preview on SWEbench Verified without extended
       | reasoning and at 4x cheaper output per token (a lot cheaper in
       | total tokens since no reasoning tokens) is ABSOLUTE mogging
       | 
       | - New 3.5 Haiku is 68% cheaper than Claude Instant haha
       | 
       | references i had to dig a bit to find
       | 
       | - https://www.anthropic.com/pricing#anthropic-api
       | 
       | - https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/build-with-claude/vision#...
       | 
       | - loop code https://github.com/anthropics/anthropic-
       | quickstarts/blob/mai...
       | 
       | - some other screenshots
       | https://x.com/swyx/status/1848751964588585319
       | 
       | - https://x.com/alexalbert__/status/1848743106063306826
       | 
       | - model card
       | https://assets.anthropic.com/m/1cd9d098ac3e6467/original/Cla...
        
         | akshayKMR wrote:
         | Haven't used vision models before, can someone comment if they
         | are good at "pointing things". E.g given a picture, give co-
         | ordinate for text "foo".
         | 
         | This is the key to accurate control, it needs to be very
         | precise.
         | 
         | Maybe Claude's model is trained at this. Also what about open
         | source vision models? Any ones good at "pointing things" on a
         | typical computer screen?
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | See https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt for an open source
         | implementation that includes a desktop app OOTB.
        
       | bergutman wrote:
       | They need to get the price of 3.5 Haiku down. It's about 2x
       | 4o-mini.
        
         | quotemstr wrote:
         | Still super cheap
        
           | caeril wrote:
           | Precisely this.
           | 
           | Aider (with the older Claude models) is already a semi-
           | competent junior developer, and it will produce 1kloc of
           | decent code for the equivalent of 50 cents in API costs.
           | 
           | Sure, you still have to review the commits, but you have to
           | do that anyway with human junior developers.
           | 
           | Anthropic could charge 20x more and we would still be happy
           | to pay it.
        
       | torginus wrote:
       | _Claude 's current ability to use computers is imperfect. Some
       | actions that people perform effortlessly--scrolling, dragging,
       | zooming--currently present challenges for Claude and we encourage
       | developers to begin exploration with low-risk tasks. _
       | 
       | Nice, but I wonder why didn't they use UI
       | automation/accessibility libraries, that have access to the
       | semantic structure of apps/web pages, as well as accessing
       | documents directly instead of having Excel display them for you.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I wonder if the model has difficulties for the same reason some
         | people do - UI affordability has gone down with the flattening,
         | hover-to-see scrollbar, hamburger-menu-ization of UIs.
         | 
         | I'd like to see a model trained on a Windows 95/NT style UI -
         | would it have an easier time with each UI element having
         | clearly defined edges, clearly defined click and dragability,
         | unified design language, etc.?
        
           | torginus wrote:
           | What the UI looks like has no effect on for example, Windows
           | UI Automation libraries. How the tech works is that it
           | queries the process directly for the sematic description of
           | items, like here's a button called 'Delete', here's a list of
           | items for TODO's, and you get the tree structure directly
           | from the API.
           | 
           | I wouldn't be surprised if they are working off of
           | screenshots, they still trained their models on having said
           | screenshots annotated by said automation libraries, which
           | told the AI what pixel is what.
        
         | cherioo wrote:
         | I think this is to make human /user experience better. If you
         | use accessibility features, then user need to know how to use
         | those features. Similar to another comment in here, the UX they
         | shoot for is "click the red button with cancel on it", and ship
         | that ASAP.
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | We use operating system accessibility APIs when available in
         | https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt.
        
       | ramesh31 wrote:
       | Claude is _absurdly_ better at coding tasks than OpenAI. Like it
       | 's not even close. Particularly when it comes to hallucinations.
       | Prompt for prompt, I see Claude being rock solid and returning
       | fully executable code, with all the correct imports, while OpenAI
       | struggles to even complete the task and will make up nonexistent
       | libraries/APIs out of whole cloth.
        
         | codingwagie wrote:
         | Yeah, sonnet is noticeably better. To the point that openai is
         | almost unusable, too many small errors
        
         | rubslopes wrote:
         | I've been using a lot of o1-mini and having a good experience
         | with it.
         | 
         | Yesterday I decided to try sonnet 3.5. I asked for a simple but
         | efficient script to perform fuzzy match in strings with Python.
         | Strangely, it didn't even mention existing fast libraries, like
         | FuzzyWuzzy and Rapidfuzz. It went on to create everything from
         | scratch using standard libraries. I don't know, I thought this
         | was something basic for it to stumble on.
        
           | ssijak wrote:
           | just ask it to use libraries you want; you cant expect it to
           | magically read your mind, you need to guide every LLM to what
           | are your must/nice haves
        
       | myprotegeai wrote:
       | How long until "computer use" is tricked into entering PII or PHI
       | into an attackers website?
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I imagine initial computer use models will be kind of like
         | untrained or unskilled computer users today (for example, some
         | kids and grandparents). They'll do their best but will
         | inevitably be easy to trick into clicking unscrupulous links
         | and UI elements.
         | 
         | Will an AI model be able to correctly choose between a giant
         | green "DOWNLOAD NOW!" advertisement/virus button and a smaller
         | link to the actual desired file?
        
           | myprotegeai wrote:
           | Exactly. Personalized ads are now prompt injection vectors.
        
       | abraxas wrote:
       | Hopefully the coding improvements are meaningful because I find
       | that as a coding assistant o1-preview beats it (at least the
       | Claude 3.5 that was available yesterday) but I like Claude's
       | demeanor more (I know this sounds crazy but it matters a bit to
       | me)
        
       | 015a wrote:
       | Why on god's green earth is it not just called Claude 3.6 Sonnet.
       | Or Claude 4 Sonnet.
       | 
       | I don't actually care what the answer is. There's no answer that
       | will make it make sense to me.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | The best answer I've seen so far is that "Claude 3.5 Sonnet" is
         | a brand name rather than a specific version. Not saying I
         | agree, just a way to visualize how the team is coming up with
         | marketing.
        
       | g9yuayon wrote:
       | Is it just me who feels that Anthropic has been innovating faster
       | than ChatGPT in the past year?
        
       | baq wrote:
       | Scary stuff.
       | 
       | 'Hey Claude 3.5 New, pretend I'm a CEO of a big company and need
       | to lay off 20% people, make me a spreadsheet and send it to HR.
       | Oh make sure to not fire the HR department'
       | 
       | c.f. IBM 1979.
        
       | TacticalCoder wrote:
       | One suggestion, use the following prompt at a LLM:
       | The combination of the words "computer use" is highly confusing.
       | It's also "Yoda speak". For example it's hard for humans to parse
       | the sentences *"Introducing computer use, a new Claude 3.5
       | Sonnet, and Claude 3.5 Haiku"*, *"Computer use, a new Claude 3.5
       | Sonnet, and Claude 3.5 Haiku "* (it literally relies on the comma
       | to make any sense) and *"Computer use for automated interaction"*
       | (in the youtube vid's title: this one is just broken english).
       | Please suggest terms that are not confusing for a new ability
       | allowing an AI to control a computer as if it was a human.
        
       | 29decibel wrote:
       | I am surprised it uses macOS as the demo, as I thought it would
       | be harder to control vs Ubuntu. But maybe at the same time, macOS
       | is the most predictable/reliable desktop environment? I noticed
       | that they use virtual environment for the demo, curious how do
       | they build that along with docker, is that leveraging the latest
       | virtualization framework from Apple?
        
       | vok wrote:
       | This "Computer use" demo:
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqx18KgIzAE
       | 
       | shows Sonnet 3.5 using the Google web UI in an automated fashion.
       | Do Google's terms really permit this? Will Google permit this
       | when it is happening at scale?
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I wonder how they could combat it if they choose to disallow AI
         | access through human interfaces. Maybe more captchas, anti-AI
         | design language, or even more tracking of the user's movements?
        
       | gzer0 wrote:
       | One of the funnier things during training with the new API (which
       | can control your computer) was this:
       | 
       |  _" Even while recording these demos, we encountered some amusing
       | moments. In one, Claude accidentally stopped a long-running
       | screen recording, causing all footage to be lost.
       | 
       | Later, Claude took a break from our coding demo and began to
       | peruse photos of Yellowstone National Park."_
       | 
       | [0] https://x.com/AnthropicAI/status/1848742761278611504
        
         | throwup238 wrote:
         | At least now we know SkyClaude's plan to end human
         | civilization.
         | 
         | It's planning on triggering a Yellowstone caldera super
         | eruption.
        
           | mnk47 wrote:
           | Am I misremembering or is this an exact plot point of Pluto
           | (the manga/anime)?
        
         | ctoth wrote:
         | Next release patch notes:
         | 
         | * Fixed bug where Claude got bored during compile times and
         | started editing Wikipedia articles to claim that birds aren't
         | real
         | 
         | * Blocked news.ycombinator.com in the Docker image's hosts file
         | to avoid spurious flamewar posts (Note: The site is still
         | recovering from the last insident)
         | 
         | * Addressed issue of Claude procrastinating on debugging by
         | creating elaborate ASCII art in Vim
         | 
         | * Patched tendency to rickroll users when asked to demonstrate
         | web scraping"
        
           | TiredOfLife wrote:
           | You forgot the most important one.
           | 
           | * Added guards to prevent every other sentence being "I use
           | neovim"
        
             | rounakdatta wrote:
             | Thank god it'll say "I use Claude btw", not leading to
             | unnecessary text wars (and thereby loss of your valuable
             | token credits).
        
           | sharpshadow wrote:
           | * Claude now identifies itself in chats to avoid endless chat
           | with itself
        
             | MichaelZuo wrote:
             | What if a user identifies as Claude too?
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | * Implemented inverse CAPTCHA using invisible Unicode
               | characters and alpha-channel encoded image data to tell
               | models and human impostors apart.
        
             | a2128 wrote:
             | * Fixed bug where Claude would sign up for chatgpt.com to
             | ask for help with compile errors
        
               | EGreg wrote:
               | But chatgpt still logs into claude... this is like double
               | spending across blockchains
        
           | surfingdino wrote:
           | * Finally managed to generate JSON output without embedding
           | responses in ```json\n...\n``` for no reason.
           | 
           | * Managed to put error/info messages into a separate key
           | instead of concatenating them with stringified JSON in the
           | main body of the response.
           | 
           | * Taught Claude to treat numeric integer strings as integers
           | to avoid embarrassment when the user asks it for a "two-digit
           | random number between 1-50, like 11" and Claude replies with
           | 111.
        
         | quantadev wrote:
         | I think the best use case for AI `Computer Use` would be a
         | simple positioning of the mouse and asking for conformation
         | before a click. For most use cases this is all people will
         | want/need. If you don't know how to do something, it is
         | basically teaching you how, in this case, rather than taking
         | full control and doing things so fast you don't have time to
         | stop of going rogue.
        
           | accrual wrote:
           | Maybe we could have both - models to improve accessibility
           | (e.g. for users who can't move their body well) and models to
           | perform high level tasks without supervision.
           | 
           | It could be very empowering for users with disabilities to
           | regain access computers. But it would also be very powerful
           | to be able to ask "use Photoshop to remove the power lines
           | from this photo" and have the model complete the task and
           | drop off a few samples in a folder somewhere.
        
             | quantadev wrote:
             | Yep. I agree. The "auto-click" thing would be optional.
             | Should be able to turn it on and off. With auto-click off
             | it would just position the mouse and say "click here".
        
           | EGreg wrote:
           | People would mostly just rubber-stamp it
           | 
           | But it would slow down the masses
           | 
           | Some people would jailbreak the agents though
        
           | luigipederzani wrote:
           | I totally agree with you. At orango.ai, we have implemented
           | the auto-click feature, but before it clicks, we position the
           | cursor on the button and display a brief loading animation,
           | allowing the user to interrupt the process.
        
         | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
         | You'll know AGI is here when it takes time out to go talk to
         | ChatGPT, or another instance of itself, or maybe goes down a
         | rabbit hole of watching YouTube music videos.
        
           | edm0nd wrote:
           | ADHDGpt
        
           | devmor wrote:
           | Or back in reality, that's when you know the training data
           | has been sourced from 2024 or later.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | Seeing models act as though they have agency gives me
         | goosebumps (e.g. seeking out photos of Yellowstone for fun).
         | LLMs don't yet have a concept of true intent or agency, but
         | it's wild to think of them acquiring it.
         | 
         | I have been playing with Mindcraft which lets models interact
         | with Minecraft through the bot API and one of them started
         | saying things like "I want to place some cobblestone there" and
         | then later more general "I want to do X" and then start playing
         | with the available commands, it was pretty cool to watch it
         | explore.
         | 
         | https://github.com/kolbytn/mindcraft
        
           | _3u10 wrote:
           | What if they do and are just lying to us.
        
             | largbae wrote:
             | https://genius.com/Harlan-ellison-i-have-no-mouth-and-i-
             | must...
        
             | caeril wrote:
             | They don't now. No FF-LLMs do, simply because of their
             | architecture.
             | 
             | But eventually they (RNNs, likely) will. And we won't know
             | when.
        
         | indigodaddy wrote:
         | This is, craaaaaazzzzzy. I'm just a layman, but to me, this is
         | the most compelling evidence that things are starting to tilt
         | toward AGI that I've ever seen.
        
           | triyambakam wrote:
           | It's an illusion. This is just inference running.
        
             | EGreg wrote:
             | What if the society around you is an illusion too ?
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Economy definitely is, for example.
        
               | baq wrote:
               | Asking people 'Is money real?' is so much fun on parties.
               | 
               | Bonus points for 'what does <real> mean?' as a follow up.
        
           | nickserv wrote:
           | Nah, it's the equivalent of seeing faces in static, or
           | animals in clouds.
           | 
           | Our brains are hardwired to see patterns, even when there are
           | none.
           | 
           | A similar, and related, behavior is seeing intent and
           | intelligence in random phenomenon.
        
             | jimbokun wrote:
             | So it's behaving like our brains. Yet it's not AGI.
             | 
             | Does that mean our brains do not implement General
             | Intelligence?
        
               | sfink wrote:
               | When I take a dump, I do it exactly like a violin
               | virtuoso does. I am not a violin virtuoso.
               | 
               | Trust me, I'm really not.
        
             | GaggiX wrote:
             | This is clearly not random. If I ask to implement a
             | particular function in Rust using a library I've previously
             | built, and it does that, that's not random.
        
           | steego wrote:
           | Why are you surprised by LLMs doing irrational or weird
           | things?
           | 
           | All machine learning models start off in a random state. As
           | they progress through their training, their input/output
           | pairs tend to mimic what they've been trained to mimic.
           | 
           | LLMs have been doing a great job mimicking our human flaws
           | from the beginning because we train them on a ton of human
           | generated data. Other weird behavior can be easily attributed
           | to simple fact that they're initialized at a random state.
           | 
           | Being able to work on and prove non-trivial theorems is a
           | better indication of AGI, IMO.
        
           | teaearlgraycold wrote:
           | You're anthropomorphizing it. Years ago people were trying to
           | argue that when GPT-3.0 would repeat words in a loop it was
           | being poetic. No, it's just a statistical failure mode.
           | 
           | When these new models go off to a random site and are caught
           | in a loop of exploring pages that doesn't mean it's an AGI
           | admiring nature.
        
         | sdl wrote:
         | In 2015, when I was asked by friends if I'm worried about Self
         | driving Cars and AI, I answered: "I'll start worrying about AI
         | when my Tesla starts listening to the radio because it's
         | bored." ... that didn't take too long
        
           | waffletower wrote:
           | Maybe that's why my car keeps turning on the music when I
           | didn't ask -- I had always thought Tesla devs were just
           | absolute noobs when it came to state management.
        
             | TeMPOraL wrote:
             | With state management implemented as sophisticated enough
             | ML model, it stops being clear whether the noob is on the
             | outside or inside of the system.
        
       | mclau156 wrote:
       | Did they just invent a new world of warcraft or runescape bot?
        
       | hubraumhugo wrote:
       | I've seen quite a few YC startups working on AI-powered RPA, and
       | now it looks like a foundational model player is directly
       | competing in their space. It will be interesting to see whether
       | Anthropic will double down on this or leave it to third-party
       | developers to build commercial applications around it.
        
         | suchintan wrote:
         | We're one of those players (https://github.com/Skyvern-
         | AI/skyvern) and we're definitely watching the space with a lot
         | of excitement
         | 
         | We thought it was inevitable that OpenAI / Anthropic would veer
         | into this space and start to become competitive with us. We
         | actually expected OpenAI to do it first!
         | 
         | What this confirms is that there is significant interest in
         | computer / browser automation, and the problem is still
         | unsolved. We will see whether the automation itself is an
         | application later problem (our approach) or whether the model
         | needs to be intertwined with the application (Anthropic's
         | approach here)
        
       | gerash wrote:
       | The "computer use" demos are interesting.
       | 
       | It's a problem we used to work on and perhaps many other people
       | have always wanted to accomplish since 10 years ago. So it's yet
       | to be seen how well it works outside a demo.
       | 
       | What was surprising was the slow/human speed of operations. It
       | types into the text boxes at a human speed rather than just
       | dumping the text there. Is it so the human can better monitor
       | what's happening or is it so it does not trigger Captchas ?
        
       | dtquad wrote:
       | Now I am really curious how to programmatically create a
       | sandboxed compute environment to do a self-hosted "Computer use"
       | and see how well other models, including self-hosted Ollama
       | models, can do this.
        
       | esseti wrote:
       | I checked the docs but did not find it out. Cloude has API as the
       | GPT Assistant? with also the ability to give a set of documents
       | to work with?
       | 
       | It seems that you can only send single message, thus not relying
       | on the ability to "learn" from predefined documents.
        
       | devinprater wrote:
       | Maybe LLM's helping blind people like me play video games that
       | aren't accessible to us normally, is getting closer!
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | Definitely! Those with movement disabilities could have a much
         | easier time if they could just dictate actions to the computer
         | and have them completed with some reliability.
        
         | KoolKat23 wrote:
         | Google has the tech (some of it's gathering dust, but they have
         | it). They can use the gameplay tech developed for stadia when a
         | user experiences lag and combine it with their LLM.
        
       | iknownthing wrote:
       | Can Claude create and run a CI/CD pipeline now from a prompt?
        
       | turnsout wrote:
       | Wow, there's a whole industry devoted to what they're calling
       | "Computer Use" (Robotic Process Automation, or RPA). I wonder how
       | those folks are viewing this.
        
       | maestrae wrote:
       | anybody know how the hell they're combating / gonna combat
       | captcha's, cloudflare blocking, etc. I remember playing in this
       | space on a toy project and being utterly frustrated by anti-
       | scraping. Maybe one good thing that will come out of this AI boom
       | is that companies will become nicer to scrapers? Or maybe,
       | they'll just cut sweetheart deals?
        
       | TaylorAlexander wrote:
       | And today I realized that despite it being an extremely common
       | activity, we don't really have a word for "using the computer"
       | which is distinct from "computing". It's funny because AI models
       | are _always_ "using a computer" but now they can "use your
       | computer."
        
         | binarymax wrote:
         | Computering
        
         | meindnoch wrote:
         | In English at least. In other languages there are.
        
         | rifty wrote:
         | The word is interfacing generally (or programming for some) but
         | it's just not commonly used for general users. I'd say this is
         | probably because the activity of focus for general users is in
         | use of the applications, not the computer itself despite being
         | instanced with a computer. Thus a computer is commonly less the
         | user's object of activity, and more commonly the setting for
         | activity.
         | 
         | Similarly using our homes are an extremely common 'activity',
         | yet the object-activities that get special words commonly used
         | are the ones with specific user application.
        
         | bongodongobob wrote:
         | Operating a computer?
        
           | TaylorAlexander wrote:
           | Right. We don't have a word for that. Like "using a bicycle"
           | has the word "bicycling".
           | 
           | Tho someone here suggested "computering" which is pretty
           | good.
        
         | shombaboor wrote:
         | what is the impact to desktop programs ui if it's just being
         | manipulated by AI?
        
       | freediver wrote:
       | Both new Sonnet and gpt-4o still fail at a simple:
       | 
       | "How many w's are in strawberry?"
       | 
       | gpt-4o: There are 2 "w's" in "strawberry."
       | 
       | Claude 3.5 Sonnet (new): Let me count the w's in "strawberry": 0
       | w's.
       | 
       | (same question with 'r' succeeds)
       | 
       | What is artificial about current gen of "artificial intelligence"
       | is the way training (predict next token) and benchmarking
       | (overfitting) is done. Perhaps a fresh approach is needed to
       | achieve a true next step.
        
         | fassssst wrote:
         | They are trained on tokens not characters.
        
         | redox99 wrote:
         | There's always that one tokenization error comment
        
         | ssijak wrote:
         | Can we stop with these useless strawberry examples?
        
         | wild_egg wrote:
         | It's bad at directly working on classical computer problems
         | like math and data processing. But you can do it indirectly by
         | having it write a program that produces the correct result.
         | Interestingly, I didn't even have to have it run the program,
         | although usually you would                   write a tool which
         | counts the number of w's in "strawberry" and return the result
         | 
         | Which produced:                   Here's a simple Python
         | function that counts the number of 'w's in the word
         | "strawberry" and returns the result:              ```python
         | def count_w_in_strawberry():             word = "strawberry"
         | count = word.count('w')             return count              #
         | Call the function and print the result         result =
         | count_w_in_strawberry()         print(f"The number of 'w's in
         | 'strawberry' is: {result}")         ```              This tool
         | does the following:              1. We define a function called
         | `count_w_in_strawberry()`.         2. Inside the function, we
         | assign the word "strawberry" to a variable called `word`.
         | 3. We use the `count()` method on the `word` string to count
         | the occurrences of 'w'.         4. The function returns the
         | count.         5. Outside the function, we call
         | `count_w_in_strawberry()` and store the result in the `result`
         | variable.         6. Finally, we print the result.
         | When you run this code, it will output:              ```
         | The number of 'w's in 'strawberry' is: 1         ```
         | This tool correctly identifies that there is one 'w' in the
         | word "strawberry".
        
           | jandrese wrote:
           | I always thought the halting problem was an academic
           | exercise, but here we see a potential practical use case.
           | Actually this seems pretty dangerous letting the LLM write
           | and automatically execute code. How good is the sandbox? Can
           | I trick the LLM into writing a reverse shell and opening it
           | up for me?
        
         | int_19h wrote:
         | There are models around that will answer this question
         | perfectly.
         | 
         | But why would anyone care? If you want to count w's in a word,
         | that's a Python one-liner, you don't need an LLM for that
         | (although the LLM can write it for you).
        
       | punnerud wrote:
       | Cursor AI already have the option to switch to using
       | claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022 in the chat box.
       | 
       | I was about to try to add a custom API. I'm impressed by the
       | speed of that team.
        
         | neevans wrote:
         | It's literally just adding one extra entry to a configuration
         | file.
        
           | punnerud wrote:
           | I know, but similar updates to Copilot would probably take
           | over a year and they designed it in a way that we got the
           | update now without having to reinstall it.
        
       | jampekka wrote:
       | It's quite sad that application interoperability requires parsing
       | bitmaps instead of exchanging structured information. Feels like
       | a devastating failure in how we do computing.
        
         | SuaveSteve wrote:
         | The people have chosen apps over protocols.
        
           | jampekka wrote:
           | Worse is better.
        
         | chillee wrote:
         | It's very much in the "worse is better" camp.
        
         | abrichr wrote:
         | See https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt for an open source
         | alternative that includes operating system accessibility API
         | data and DOM information (along with bitmaps) where available.
         | 
         | We are also planning on extracting runtime information using
         | COM/AppleScript:
         | https://github.com/OpenAdaptAI/OpenAdapt/issues/873
        
           | accrual wrote:
           | It's super cool to see something like this already exists! I
           | wonder if one day something adjacent will become a standard
           | part of major desktop OSs, like a dedicated "AI API" to allow
           | models to connect to the OS, browse the windows and available
           | actions, issue commands, etc. and remove the bitmap parsing
           | altogether as this appears to do.
        
         | janalsncm wrote:
         | Apps are built for people rather than computers.
        
         | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
         | It's really more of a reflection on where we're at in the
         | timeline of computing, with humans having been the major user
         | of apps and webs site up until now. Obviously we've had screen
         | scraping and terminal emulation access to legacy apps for a
         | while, and this is a continuation of that.
         | 
         | There have been, and continue to be, computer-centric ways to
         | communicate with applications though, such as Windows COM/OLE,
         | WinRT and Linux D-Bus, etc. Still, emulating human interaction
         | does provide a fairly universal capability.
        
         | smartician wrote:
         | If the goal is to emulate human behavior, I'd say there is a
         | case to be made to build for the same interface, and not rely
         | on separate APIs that may or may not reflect the same
         | information as a user sees.
        
         | rfoo wrote:
         | It's quite sad that application interoperability requires
         | parsing text passed via pipes instead of exchanging structured
         | information.
         | 
         | Like others said, worse is better.
        
         | caeril wrote:
         | You can blame normies for this. They love their ridiculous
         | point and click (and tap) interfaces.
         | 
         | Fortunately, with function-calling (and recently, with
         | guaranteed data structure), we've had access to application
         | interoperability with LLMs for a while now.
         | 
         | Don't get mad at a company for developing for the masses -
         | that's what they are expected to do.
         | 
         | But they built for us, first.
        
       | cwkoss wrote:
       | Claude is amazing. The project documents functionality makes it a
       | clear leader ahead of ChatGPT and I have found it to be the clear
       | leader in coding assistance over the past few months. Web
       | automation is really exciting.
       | 
       | I look forward to the brave new future where I can code a webapp
       | without ever touching the code, just testing, giving feedback,
       | and explaining discovered bugs to it and it can push code and
       | tweak infrastructure to accomplish complex software engineering
       | tasks all on its own.
       | 
       | Its going to be really wild when Claude (or other AI) can make a
       | list of possible bugs and UX changes and just ask the user for
       | approval to greenlight the change.
        
       | LVB wrote:
       | Not specific to this update, but I wanted to chime in with just
       | how useful Claude has been, and relatively better than ChatGPT
       | and GitHub copilot for daily use. I've been pro for maybe 6
       | months. I'm not a power user leveraging their API or anything.
       | Just the chat interface, though with ever more use of Projects,
       | lately. I use it every day, whether for mundane answers or
       | curiosities, to "write me this code", to general consultation on
       | a topic. It has replaced search in a superior way and I feel
       | hugely productive with it.
       | 
       | I do still occasionally pop over to ChatGPT to test their their
       | waters (or if Claude is just not getting it), but I've not felt
       | any need to switch back or have both. Well done, Anthropic!
        
       | zone411 wrote:
       | It improves to 25.9 over the previous version of Claude 3.5
       | Sonnet (24.4) on NYT Connections:
       | https://github.com/lechmazur/nyt-connections/.
        
         | jjice wrote:
         | What a neat bench mark! I'm blown away that o1 absolutely
         | crushes everyone else in this. I guess the chain of thought
         | really hashes out those associations.
        
           | rkharsan64 wrote:
           | Isn't it possible that o1 was also trained on this data (or
           | something super similar) directly? The score seems
           | disproportionately high.
        
         | amarcheschi wrote:
         | Perhaps it's just because English is not my native language,
         | but the prompt 3 isn't quite clear at the beginning when it
         | says "group of four. Words (...)". It is not explained what the
         | group of four must be, if I add to the prompt "group of four
         | words" Claude 3.5 manages to answer it, while without it,
         | Claude tells it is not that clear and can't answer
        
       | TechDebtDevin wrote:
       | Not that I'm scared of this update but I'd probably be alright
       | with pausing llm development today, atleast in regard to
       | producing code.
       | 
       | I don't want an llm to write all my code, regardless of if it
       | works, I like to write code. What these models are capable of at
       | the moment is perfect for my needs and I'd be 100% okay if they
       | didn't improve at all going forward.
       | 
       | Edit: also I don't see how an llm controlled system can ever
       | replace a deterministic system for critical applications.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | I have trouble with this too. I'm working on a small side
         | project and while I love ironing out implementation details
         | myself, it's tough to ignore the fact that Claude/GPT4o can
         | create entire working files for me on demand.
         | 
         | It's still enjoyable working at a higher architecture level and
         | discussing the implementation before actually generating any
         | code though.
        
           | TechDebtDevin wrote:
           | I don't mind using it to make inline edits or more global
           | edits between files at my descresion, and according to my
           | instructions. Definitely saves tons of time and allows me to
           | be more creative, but I don't want it make decisions on its
           | own anymore than it already does.
           | 
           | I tried using the composer feature on Cursor.sh, that's
           | exactly the type of llm tool I do not want.
        
         | machiaweliczny wrote:
         | In normal critical system u use 3 CPUs. With LLM u can 1000
         | shot majority voting. Seems like approaches like entropix might
         | reduce hallucinations also.
        
       | vivekkairi wrote:
       | aider benchmarks for claude 3.5 new are impressive. From 77.4% to
       | 83.5% beating o1-preview.
        
       | janalsncm wrote:
       | Reminds me of the rise in job application bots. People are
       | applying to thousands of jobs using automated tools. It's
       | probably one of the inevitable use cases of this technology.
       | 
       | It makes me think. Perhaps the act of applying to jobs will go
       | extinct. Maybe the endgame is that as soon as you join a website
       | like Monster or LinkedIn, you immediately "apply" to every open
       | position, and are simply ranked against every other candidate.
        
         | quantadev wrote:
         | The `Hiring Process` in America is definitely BADLY broken.
         | Maybe worldwide afaik. It's a far too difficult, time-
         | consuming, and painful process for everyone involved.
         | 
         | I have a feeling AI can fix this, although I'd never allow an
         | AI bot to interview me. I just mean other ways of using AI to
         | help the process.
         | 
         | Also people are hired for all kinds of reasons having little to
         | do with their qualifications lots of the time, and often due to
         | demographics (race, color, age, etc), and this is another way
         | maybe AI can help by hiding those aspects of a candidate
         | somehow.
        
           | javajosh wrote:
           | AI and new tools have broken the system. The tools send you
           | email saying things like "X corp is interested in you!" and
           | you send a resume, and you don't hear back. Nothing, not even
           | a rejection.
           | 
           | Eventually you stop believing them, understanding it for the
           | marketing spam that it is. Direct submissions are better, but
           | only slightly. Recruiters are much better, in general, since
           | they have a relationship with a real person at the company
           | and can actually get your resume in front of eyes. But yeah,
           | tools like ziprecruiter, careerboutique, jobot, etc are worse
           | than useless: by lying to you about interest they actively
           | discourage you from looking. There are no good alternatives
           | (I'd love to learn I'm wrong), so you have to keep using
           | those bad tools anyway.
        
             | quantadev wrote:
             | All that's true, and sadly it also often doesn't even
             | matter how good you even are either. I have decades of
             | experience and I still get "evaluated" based on how fast I
             | can do silly brain-teaser IQ-test coding challenges.
             | 
             | I've gotten where any company that wants me to do a coding
             | challenge on my own time is an immediate "no thanks" reply
             | from me. Everyone should refuse that. But so many people
             | are so desperate they allow hiring companies to abuse them
             | in that way. I consider it a kind of abuse of power to
             | demand people do like 4 to 6hrs of nonsensical coding just
             | to buy an opportunity for an actual interview.
        
         | sourcecodeplz wrote:
         | I've found that doing some research and finding the phone
         | number of the hiring person and calling them directly is very
         | powerful.
        
           | 93po wrote:
           | maybe the boomer advice of "just go walk in with a resume and
           | a firm handshake" will finally start being worth something
        
         | sangnoir wrote:
         | > People are applying to thousands of jobs using automated
         | tools
         | 
         | Employers were already screening thousands of applications
         | using automated tools for years. Candidates are catching up to
         | the automation cat-and-mouse game.
        
       | submeta wrote:
       | That's too much control for my taste. I don't want anthropic to
       | see my screen. I rather prefer a VS Code with integrated Claude.
       | A version that can see all my dev files in a given folder. I
       | don't need it to run Chrome for me.
        
         | accrual wrote:
         | It just depends on the task I suppose. One could have a VM
         | dedicated to a model and let it control it freely to accomplish
         | some set of tasks, then wipe/redeploy if it ever breaks.
        
           | submeta wrote:
           | Well, that's another way of saying ,,not allowing it to see
           | my screen" ;)
        
       | trzy wrote:
       | Pretty cool! I use Claude 3.5 to control a robot (ARKit/iOS
       | based) and it does surprisingly well in the real world:
       | https://youtu.be/-iW3Vzzr3oU?si=yzu2SawugXMGKlW9
        
         | mrmansano wrote:
         | That looks pretty cool, congrats! How feasible is it to be a
         | product by itself? Did you try with a local edge model?
        
           | trzy wrote:
           | None of the small LLMs are good enough yet. You could
           | certainly build a system around local VLMs but it would
           | require much more task specific programming baked in.
           | 
           | I'm certainly interested in building a product (not entirely
           | controlled by an LLM but I see lots of utility in building
           | interfaces with them) but not really sure what this would be
           | useful for. Looking into some spaces now but there has to be
           | a clear ROI to get any sort of funding for robotics.
        
       | abc-1 wrote:
       | I tried to get it to translate a document and it stopped after a
       | few paragraphs and asked if I wanted it to keep going. This is
       | not appropriate for my use case and it kept doing this even
       | though I explicitly told it not to. The old version did not do
       | this.
        
         | graeme wrote:
         | I noticed some timeouts today. Could be capacity limits from
         | the announcement
        
       | jerrygoyal wrote:
       | does anyone know what are some use cases for "computer use"?
        
       | gumboshoes wrote:
       | For me, one of the more useful steps on macOS will be when local
       | AI can manipulate anything that has an Apple Script library. The
       | hooks are there and decently documented. For meta purposes,
       | having AI work with a third-party app like Keyboard Maestro or
       | Raycast will even further expand the pre-built possibilities
       | without requiring the local AI to reinvent steps or tools at the
       | time of each prompt.
        
       | efields wrote:
       | Captchas are toast.
        
         | edm0nd wrote:
         | they have been toast for at least a decade if not two now. With
         | OCR and captcha solving services like DeathByCaptcha or
         | AntiCaptcha where it costs ~$2.99 per 1k successfully solved
         | captchas, they are a non-issue amd takes about 5-10 lines of
         | code added to your script to implement a solution.
        
       | simonw wrote:
       | I wrote up some of my own notes on Computer Use here:
       | https://simonwillison.net/2024/Oct/22/computer-use/
        
       | tammer wrote:
       | This demo is impressive although my initial reaction is a sort of
       | grief that I wasn't born in the timeline where Alan Kay's vision
       | of object-oriented computing was fully realized -- then we
       | wouldn't have to manually reconcile wildly heterogeneous data
       | formats and interfaces in the first place!
        
       | nopinsight wrote:
       | This needs more discussion:
       | 
       | Claude using Claude on a computer for coding
       | https://youtu.be/vH2f7cjXjKI?si=Tw7rBPGsavzb-LNo (3 mins)
       | 
       | True end-user programming and product manager programming are
       | coming, probably pretty soon. Not the same thing, but Midjourney
       | went from v.1 to v.6 in less than 2 years.
       | 
       | If something similar happens, most jobs that could be done
       | remotely will be automatable in a few years.
        
         | dmartinez wrote:
         | Every time I see this argument made, there seems to be a level
         | of complexity and/or operational cost above which people throw
         | up their hands and say "well of course we can't do that".
         | 
         | I feel like we will see that again here as well. It really is
         | similar to the self-driving problem.
        
           | unshavedyak wrote:
           | I feel pain for the people who will be employed to "prompt
           | engineer" the behavior of these things. When they inevitably
           | hallucinate some insane behavior a human will have to take
           | blame for why it's not working.. and yea, that'll be fun to
           | be on the receiving end of.
        
             | WalterSear wrote:
             | Humans 'hallucinate' like LLMs. The term used however, is
             | confabulation: we all do it, we all do it quite frequently,
             | and the process is well studied(1).
             | 
             | > We are shockingly ignorant of the causes of our own
             | behavior. The explanations that we provide are sometimes
             | wholly fabricated, and certainly never complete. Yet, that
             | is not how it feels. Instead it feels like we know exactly
             | what we're doing and why. This is confabulation: Guessing
             | at plausible explanations for our behavior, and then
             | regarding those guesses as introspective certainties. Every
             | year psychologists use dramatic examples to entertain their
             | undergraduate audiences. Confabulation is funny, but there
             | is a serious side, too. Understanding it can help us act
             | better and think better in everyday life.
             | 
             | I suspect it's an inherent aspect of human and LLM
             | intelligences, and cannot be avoided. And yet, humans do
             | ok, which is why I don't think it's the moat between LLM
             | agents and AGI that it's generally assumed to be. I
             | strongly suspect it's going to be yesterday's problem in
             | 6-12 months at most.
             | 
             | (1) https://www.edge.org/response-detail/11513
        
             | IncreasePosts wrote:
             | That won't even be a real job. How exactly will there be
             | this complex intelligence that can solve all these real
             | world problems, but can't handle some ambiguity in some
             | inputs it is provided? Wouldn't the ultra smart AI just ask
             | clarifying questions so that literally anyone can "prompt
             | engineer"?
        
           | nopinsight wrote:
           | Self-driving is a beyond-six-sigma problem. An error rate of
           | over 1-2 crashes per million miles, i.e., the human rate, is
           | unacceptable.
           | 
           | Most jobs are not like that.
           | 
           | A good argument can be made, however, that software
           | engineering, especially in important domains, will be among
           | the last to be fully automated because software errors often
           | cascade.
           | 
           | There's a countervailing effect though. It's easy to generate
           | and validate synthetic data for lower-level code. Junior
           | coding jobs will likely become less available soon.
        
             | aerhardt wrote:
             | > software errors often cascade
             | 
             | Whereas software defects in design and architecture _subtly
             | accumulate_ , until they leave the codebase in a state in
             | which it becomes utterly unworkable. It is one of the chief
             | reasons why good devs get paid what they do. Software
             | discussions very often underrate software extensibility, or
             | in other words, its structural and architectural
             | scaleability. Even software correctness is trivial in
             | comparison - you can't even keep writing correct code if
             | you've made an unworkable tire-fire. This could be a
             | massive mountain for AI to climb.
        
               | hawk_ wrote:
               | I hear you. But I have wondered if there won't be a need
               | to maintain certain like of software when you can just
               | have it be rewritten for each iteration. Like some kind
               | of schema evolution, yes but throwaway software at each
               | iteration.
        
               | aerhardt wrote:
               | Well in terms of processing speed the AI could iterate on
               | different designs until it finds an extensible one, with
               | some kind of reinforcement learning loop. Produce a
               | certain design, get stuck, throw it away, try a new one.
               | Just like humans learn to write good code really - except
               | at an unfathomable speed of iteration. But it still all
               | sounds ridiculously challenging. There is something there
               | that isn't about predicting next tokens like LLMs do.
               | It's about inferring very complex, highly abstract
               | metastructures in the text.
        
               | vl wrote:
               | Fundamentally there is human with limited brain capacity
               | that got trained to that. It's just a question of time
               | when there are equally capable, and then exceedingly
               | capable models. There is nothing magical or special about
               | human brain.
               | 
               | The only question is how fast it is going to happen. Ie
               | what percentage of jobs is going to be replaced next year
               | and so on.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Errors not only cascade, in certain cases they have global
             | impact in very little time. E.g. CrowdStrike.
             | 
             | And what is the title element on CrowdStrike's website
             | today? "CrowdStrike: We Stop Breaches with AI-native
             | Cybersecurity"
             | 
             | Can't wait.
        
         | unshavedyak wrote:
         | > If something similar is the case, most jobs that can be done
         | remotely will be automatable in a couple of years.
         | 
         | I'm really curious on the cost of that sort of thing. Seems
         | astronomical atm, but as much as i get shocked at the today-
         | cost, staffing is also a pretty insane cost.
        
           | girvo wrote:
           | Playing with Sonnet 3.5 this morning with Cline, my API cost
           | to add a decent amount of functionality to my GraphQL server
           | cost $0.1325 and took about 5 minutes. $1.80 is a lot cheaper
           | than my hourly rate... but I'm the one reviewing what it doe
           | to ensure it makes sense
           | 
           | And it got some things subtly wrong though so do I/my team.
           | Interesting times ahead I think, but I'm not too worried
           | about my job as a principal dev. Again I'm more stressed
           | about juniors
        
         | fragmede wrote:
         | openinterpreter has been doing this for a while, with a bunch
         | of LLMs, glad to see first party support for this use case
        
         | evilfred wrote:
         | i am sure it will do great handling error cases and pixel
         | perfect ui
        
         | runako wrote:
         | > True end-user programming and product manager programming are
         | coming
         | 
         | This means that either product managers will have to start
         | (effectively) writing in-depth specs again, or they will have
         | to learn to accept the LLM's ideas in a way that most have not
         | accepted their human programmers' ideas.
         | 
         | Definitely will be interesting to see how that plays out.
        
           | nopinsight wrote:
           | Since automated coding systems can revise code and show the
           | results much quicker than most human engineers can, writing
           | detailed specs could be _less_ necessary.
        
             | runako wrote:
             | The bottleneck is still the person who has to evaluate the
             | results.
             | 
             | The larger point is that building software is about making
             | tons of decisions about how it works. Someone has to make
             | those decisions. Either PMs will be happy letting machines
             | make the decisions where they do not let programmers decide
             | now. Or the PMs will have to make all the decisions before
             | (spec) or after (evaluation + feedback look like you
             | suggest).
        
         | blauditore wrote:
         | > True end-user programming and product manager programming are
         | coming, probably pretty soon.
         | 
         | I'm placing my bets rather on this new object-oriented
         | programming thing. It will make programming jobs obsolete any
         | day now...
        
         | risyachka wrote:
         | Idk, LLMs have basically stopped improving for over a year now.
         | And in their current state no matter how many abstractions you
         | add to them - or chain them - they are not even close capable
         | to replace even simple jobs.
        
         | zeroonetwothree wrote:
         | > If something similar happens, most jobs that could be done
         | remotely will be automatable in a few years.
         | 
         | I'd be willing to be a large amount of money this doesn't
         | happen, assuming "most" means >50% and "a few" is <5.
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | > This needs more discussion:
         | 
         | "Create a simple website" has to be one of the most common blog
         | / example out there in about every programming language.
         | 
         | It can automate stuff? That's cool: I already did automate
         | screenshots and then AI looking if it looks like phishing or
         | not (and it's quite good at it).
         | 
         | I mean: the "Claude using Claude" may seem cool, but I dispute
         | the "for coding" part. That's trivial stuff. A trivial error
         | (which it doesn't fix btw: it just deletes everything).
         | 
         | 'Claude, write me code to bring SpaceX rockets back on earth"
         | 
         | or
         | 
         | "Claude, write me code to pilot a machine to treat a tumor with
         | precision"
         | 
         | This was not it.
        
       | LASR wrote:
       | This is actually a huge deal.
       | 
       | As someone building AI SaaS products, I used to have the position
       | that directly integrating with APIs is going to get us most of
       | the way there in terms of complete AI automation.
       | 
       | I wanted to take at stab at this problem and started researching
       | some daily busineses and how they use software.
       | 
       | My brother-in-law (who is a doctor) showed me the bespoke
       | software they use in his practice. Running on Windows. Using MFC
       | forms.
       | 
       | My accountant showed me Cantax - a very powerful software package
       | they use to prepare tax returns in Canada. Also on Windows.
       | 
       | I started to realize that pretty much most of the real world runs
       | on software that directly interfaces with people, without clearly
       | defined public APIs you can integrate into. Being in the SaaS
       | space makes you believe that everyone ought to have client-server
       | backend APIs etc.
       | 
       | Boy was I wrong.
       | 
       | I am glad they did this, since it is a powerful connector to
       | these types of real-world business use cases that are super-
       | hairy, and hence very worthwhile in automating.
        
         | skissane wrote:
         | You don't know for a fact that those two specific packages
         | _don't_ have supported APIs. Just because the user doesn't know
         | of any API doesn't mean none exists. The average accountant or
         | doctor is never going to even ask the vendor "is there an API"
         | because they wouldn't know what to do with one if there was.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | If they're accessible to screen readers they have one.
           | Accessibility is API for apps in disguise.
           | 
           | In this case I doubt they're networked apps so they probably
           | don't have a server API.
        
             | skissane wrote:
             | > In this case I doubt they're networked apps so they
             | probably don't have a server API.
             | 
             | I think it would be very unusual this decade for software
             | used to run either a medical practice or tax accountants to
             | not be networked. Most such practices have multiple
             | doctors/accountants, each with their individual computer,
             | and they want to be able to share files, so that if your
             | doctor/accountant is away their colleague can attend to
             | you. Managing backups/security/etc is all a lot easier when
             | the data is stored in a central server (whether in the
             | cloud or a closet) than on individual client machines.
             | 
             | Just because it is a fat client MFC-based Windows app
             | doesn't mean the data has to be stored locally. DCOM has
             | been a thing since 1996.
        
         | pants2 wrote:
         | Basically, if it means companies can introduce automation
         | without changing anything about the tooling/workflow/programs
         | they already use, it's going to be MASSIVE. Just and install
         | and a prompt and you've already automated a lengthy manual
         | process - awesome.
        
           | LASR wrote:
           | That's exactly it.
           | 
           | I've been peddling my vision of "AI automation" for the last
           | several months to acquaintances of mine in various
           | professional fields. In some cases, even building up
           | prototypes and real-user testing. Invariably, none have
           | really stuck.
           | 
           | This is not a technical problem that requires a technical
           | solution. The problem is that it requires human behavior
           | change.
           | 
           | In the context of AI automation, the promise is huge gains,
           | but when you try to convince users / buyers, there is nothing
           | wrong with their current solutions. Ie: There is no problem
           | to solve. So essentially "why are you bothering me with this
           | AI nonsense?"
           | 
           | Honestly, human behavior change might be the only real
           | blocker to a world where AI automates most of the boring busy
           | work currently done by people.
           | 
           | This approach essentially sidesteps the need to have effect a
           | behavior change, at least in the short-term while AI can
           | prove and solidify its value in the real-world.
        
             | sdwr wrote:
             | There's a huge huge gap between "coaxing what you want out
             | of it" and "trusting it to perform flawlessly". Everybody
             | on the planet would use #2, but #1 is just for enthusiasts.
             | 
             | AI is squarely #1. You can't trust it with your credit card
             | to order groceries, or to budget and plan and book your
             | vacation. People aren't picking up on AI because it isn't
             | good enough yet to trust - you still have the burden of
             | responsibility for the task.
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | Yeah this will be a true paradigm shift
        
           | bambax wrote:
           | Companies are going to install an AI inside their own
           | proprietary systems full of proprietary and confidential data
           | and PII about their customers and prospects and whatnot, and
           | let it run around and click on random buttons and submit
           | random forms?
           | 
           | Really??!? What could possibly go wrong.
           | 
           | I'm currently trying to do a large ORC project using Google
           | Vision API, and then Gemini 1.5 Pro 002 to parse and
           | reconstruct the results (taking advantage, one hopes, of its
           | big context window). As I'm not familiar with Google Vision
           | API I asked Gemini to guide me in setting it up.
           | 
           | Gemini is the latest Google model; Vision, as the name
           | implies, is also from Google. Yet Gemini makes several
           | egregious mistakes about Vision, gets names of fields or
           | options wrong, etc.
           | 
           | Gemini 1.5 "Pro" also suggests that concatenating two json
           | strings produces a valid json string; when told that's
           | unlikely, it's very sorry and makes lots of apologies, but
           | still it made the mistake in the first place.
           | 
           | LLMs can be useful when used with caution; letting one loose
           | in an enterprise environment doesn't feel safe, or sane.
        
         | bilsbie wrote:
         | Absolutely! This reminds me of the humanoid robots vs
         | specialized machines debate.
        
         | aduffy wrote:
         | This has existed for a long time, it's called "RPA" or Robotic
         | Process Automation. The biggest incumbent in this space is
         | UiPath, but there are a host of startups and large companies
         | alike that are tackling it.
         | 
         | Most of the things that RPA is used for can be easily scripted,
         | e.g. download a form from one website, open up Adobe. There are
         | a lot of startups that are trying to build agentic versions of
         | RPA, I'm glad to see Anthropic is investing in it now too.
        
           | monkeydust wrote:
           | Exactly. I have been wondering for a while how GenAI might
           | upend RPA providers guess this might be the answer.
        
           | tkellogg wrote:
           | Honestly, this is going to be huge for healthcare. There's an
           | incredible amount of waste due to incumbent tech making
           | interoperability difficult.
        
             | voidmain0001 wrote:
             | Hopefully.
             | 
             | I've implemented quite a few RPA apps and the struggle is
             | the request/response turn around time for realtime
             | transactions. For batch data extract or input, RPA is great
             | since there's no expectation of process duration. However,
             | when a client requests data in realtime that can only be
             | retrieved from an app using RPA, the response time is
             | abysmal. Just picture it - Start the app, log into the app
             | if it requires authentication (hope that the
             | authentication's MFA is email based rather than token
             | based, and then access the mailbox using an in-place
             | configuration with MS Graph/Google Workspace/etc), navigate
             | to the app's view that has the data or worse, bring up a
             | search interface since the exact data isn't known and try
             | and find the requested data. So brittle...
        
             | girvo wrote:
             | We'll see. Having worked in this space in the past, the
             | technical challenges are able to overcome today with no new
             | technology: its a business sales and regulation challenge
             | more than a tech one.
        
               | claytongulick wrote:
               | Sometimes.
               | 
               | In my case I have a bunch of nurses that waste a huge
               | amount of time dealing with clerical work and tech hoops,
               | rather than operating at the top of their license.
               | 
               | Traditional RPAs are tough when you're dealing with VPNs,
               | 2fa, remote desktop (in multiple ways), a variety of EHRs
               | and scraping clinical documentation from poorly
               | structured clinical notes or PDFs.
               | 
               | This technology looks like it could be a game changer for
               | our organization.
        
               | mewpmewp2 wrote:
               | True, 2FA and all these little details that exist now
               | have made this automation quite insanely complicated. It
               | is of course necessary that we have 2FA etc, but there is
               | huge potential in solving this I believe.
        
             | dzhiurgis wrote:
             | Or you'll start getting a captcha while trying to pump
             | insulin
        
             | claytongulick wrote:
             | It is.
             | 
             | CTO of healthcare org here.
             | 
             | I just put a hold on a new RPA project to keep an eye on
             | this and see how it develops.
             | 
             | According to their docs, Anthropic will sign a BAA.
        
           | CSMastermind wrote:
           | RPA has been a huge pain to work with.
           | 
           | It's almost always a framework around existing tools like
           | Selenium that you constantly have to fight against to get
           | good results from. I was always left with the feeling that I
           | could build something better myself just handrolling the
           | scripts rather than using their frameworks.
           | 
           | Getting Claude integrated into the space is going to be a
           | game changer.
        
             | xxpor wrote:
             | I can see it now, Claude generating expect scripts. 1994
             | and 2024 will be fully joined.
        
           | iwontberude wrote:
           | UiPath can't figure out how to make a profitable business
           | since 2005 and we are nearing the end of this hype cycle. I
           | am not so sure this will lead anywhere. I am a former
           | investor in UiPath.
        
         | TeMPOraL wrote:
         | > _Being in the SaaS space makes you believe that everyone
         | ought to have client-server backend APIs etc._
         | 
         | FWIW, looking at it from end-user perspective, it ain't much
         | different than the Windows apps. APIs are _not_
         | interoperability - they tend to be tightly-controlled channels,
         | access gated by the vendor and provided through contracts.
         | 
         | In a way, it's easier to _make_ an API to a legacy native
         | desktop app than it is to a typical SaaS[0] - the native app
         | gets updated infrequently, and isn 't running in an obstinate
         | sandbox. The older the app, the better - it's more likely to
         | rely on OS APIs and practices, designed with collaboration and
         | accessibility in mind. E.g. in Windows land, in many cases you
         | don't need OCR and mouse emulation - you just need to enumerate
         | the window handles, walk the tree structure looking for text or
         | IDs you care about, and send targeted messages to those
         | components.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, desktop apps are headed the same direction web
         | apps are (increasingly often, they _are_ web apps in disguise),
         | so I agree that AI-level RPA is a huge deal.
         | 
         | --
         | 
         | [0] - This is changing a bit in that frameworks seem to be
         | getting complex enough that SaaS vendors often have no clue as
         | to what kind of access they're leaving open to people who know
         | how to press F12 in their browsers and how to call cURL. I'm
         | not talking bespoke APIs backend team wrote, but standard ones
         | built into middleware, that fell beyond dev team's "abstraction
         | horizon". GraphQL is a notable example.
        
         | gavin_gee wrote:
         | LLM's are enabling a reimagination of UI. Wheres the biggest
         | opportunity in UI that hasn't kept up to date? legacy and
         | regulated software in the long tail. Thats the disruption
         | opportunity for LLM's.
        
       | Bjorkbat wrote:
       | Tried my standard go-to for testing, asked it to generate a
       | voronoi diagram using p5js. For the sake of job security I'm
       | relieved to see it still can't do a relatively simple task with
       | ample representation in the Google search results. Granted, p5js
       | is kind of niche, but not terribly so. It's arguably the most
       | popular library for creating coding.
       | 
       | In case you're wondering, I tried o1-preview, and while it did
       | work, I was also initially perplexed why the result looked
       | pixelated. Turns out, that's because many of the p5js examples
       | online use a relatively simple approach where they just see which
       | cell-center each pixel is closest to, more or less. I mean, it
       | works, but it's a pretty crude approach.
       | 
       | Now, granted, you're probably not doing creative coding at your
       | job, so this may not matter that much, but to me it was an
       | example of pretty poor generalization capabilities. Curiously,
       | Claude has no problem whatsoever generating a voronoi diagram as
       | an SVG, but writing a script to generate said diagrams using a
       | particular library eluded it. It knows how to do one thing but
       | generalizes poorly when attempting to do something similar.
       | 
       | Really hard to get a real sense of capabilities when you're faced
       | with experiences like this, all the while somehow it's able to
       | solve 46% of real-world python pull-requests from a certain
       | dataset. In case you're wondering, one paper
       | (https://cs.paperswithcode.com/paper/swe-bench-enhanced-codin...)
       | found that 94% of the pull-requests on SWE-bench were created
       | before the knowledge cutoff dates of the latest LLMs, so there's
       | almost certainly a degree of data-leakage.
        
         | nemothekid wrote:
         | It's surprising how much knowledge is not easily googleable and
         | can only unearched by deep diving into OSS or asking an expert.
         | I recently was debugging a rather naive gstreamer issue where I
         | was seeing a delay in the processing. ChatGPT, Claude and
         | Google were all unhelpful. I spend the next couple days reading
         | the source code, found my answer, and thought it was a bug.
         | 
         | Asked the mailing list, and my problem was solved in 10 seconds
         | by someone who could identify the exact parameter that was
         | missing (and IMO, required some architecture knowledge on how
         | gstreamer worked - and why the unrelatedly named parameter
         | would fix it). The most difficult problems fall into this camp
         | - I don't usually find myself reaching for LLMs when the
         | problem is trivial unless it involves a mountain of
         | boilerplate.
        
         | cageface wrote:
         | I recently asked it to give me code to do gapless playback of
         | audio files using Apple's AVAudioEngine APIs. It got it wrong
         | and additional prompts to explain why it was wrong didn't help.
         | 
         | To me what it seems like these tools do really well is
         | paraphrase stuff that's in their training data.
        
       | brcmthrowaway wrote:
       | This is bad news for SWEs!
        
       | brid wrote:
       | Looks like visual understanding of diagrams is improved
       | significantly! For example, it was on par with Chat GPT 4o and
       | Gemini 1.5 in parsing an ERD for a conceptual model, but now far
       | excels over the others.
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | Does this make cursor obsolete?
       | 
       | You can just use any IDE you want and it will work with it.
        
         | jusgu wrote:
         | Assuming running this new computer interactivity feature is as
         | fast as cursor composer (which I don't think it is)--it still
         | doesn't support codebase indexing, inline edits or references
         | to other variables and files in the codebase. I can see how
         | someone could use this to make some sort of cursor competitor
         | but out of the box there's a very low likelihood it makes
         | cursor obsolete.
        
           | 93po wrote:
           | i really want cursor to integrate this so it can look at the
           | results of a code change in the browser and then make edits
           | as needed until it's accomplished what i asked of it. same
           | for errors in the console etc. right now i have to manually
           | describe the issue or copy and paste the error message and
           | it'd be nice for it to just iterate more on its own
        
       | sedatk wrote:
       | > developers can direct Claude to use computers the way people do
       | --by looking at a screen, moving a cursor, clicking buttons, and
       | typing text.
       | 
       | So, this is how AI takes over the world.
        
       | runako wrote:
       | I really don't get their model. They have very advanced models,
       | but the service overall seems to be a jumble of priorities. Some
       | examples:
       | 
       | Anthropic doesn't offer an unlimited chatbot service, only plans
       | that give you "more" usage, whatever that means. If you have an
       | API key, you are "unlimited," so they have the capability. Why
       | doesn't the chatbot allow one to use their API key in the Claude
       | app to get unlimited usage? (Yes, I know there are third-party
       | BYOK tools. That's not the question.)
       | 
       | Claude appears to be smart enough to make an Excel spreadsheet
       | with simple formulae. However, it is apparently prevented from
       | making any kind of file. Why? What principle underlies that
       | guardrail that does not also apply to Computer Use?
       | 
       | Really want to make Claude my daily driver, but right now it
       | often feels too much like a research project.
        
         | stuckkeys wrote:
         | Even with API, depending what tier you are sitting on, there is
         | daily limits. OpenAI used to be able to generate files for you,
         | they changed that. It was useful.
        
           | runako wrote:
           | Interestingly enough, after Claude refused to generate a file
           | for me, I sent the same request to ChatGPT and got the Excel
           | file I wanted.
           | 
           | I wasn't aware of tiers in the Claude API, they are not
           | mentioned on the API pricing page. Are the limits disclosed
           | or just based on vibes like they are for the chatbot?
        
         | saaaaaam wrote:
         | What do you mean by "file" here? I'm making files on a daily
         | basis, including CSVs, html, executable code, XML, JSON and
         | other formats. It built me an entire visual wireframe for
         | something the other day.
         | 
         | Are you using artefacts?
         | 
         | But I'm maybe misunderstanding your point because my use is
         | relatively basic through the built in chatbot.
        
           | runako wrote:
           | I asked it to generate a very basic Excel file. It generated
           | text as Markdown. I reiterated that I want an Excel file with
           | formulae and it provided this as part of its response:
           | 
           | ----
           | 
           | No, I am not able to generate or create an actual Excel file.
           | As an AI language model, I don't have the capability to
           | create, upload, or send files of any kind, including Excel
           | spreadsheets.
           | 
           | ----
        
             | tucnak wrote:
             | This is claude.ai or console.anthropic.com?
        
             | KoolKat23 wrote:
             | I think xlsx files are a proprietary Microsoft format.
        
             | mathnmusic wrote:
             | It does not have access to the Excel app. You may be able
             | to generate the .xlsx file using python libraries but you
             | would need to run the python code on your own. ChatGPT can
             | run generated code, which is probably why it works there.
        
       | 2-3-7-43-1807 wrote:
       | wow, i almost got worried but the cute music and the funny little
       | monster on the desk convinced me that this all just fun and dandy
       | and all will be good. the future is coming and we'll all be much
       | more happy :)
        
       | astrange wrote:
       | I think this is good evidence that people's jobs are not being
       | replaced by AI, because no AI would give the product a confusing
       | name like "new Claude 3.5 Sonnet".
        
         | abixb wrote:
         | I wonder why they didn't choose a "point update" scheme, like
         | bumping it up to v3.6, for example. I agree, the naming is
         | super confusing.
        
           | cryptoegorophy wrote:
           | Maybe they should've asked Claude to generate a better name.
           | Very dangerous to live in your own hyper focused bubble while
           | trying to build a mass market product.
        
         | jnwatson wrote:
         | Google, OpenAI, and Anthropic are responsibly scaling their
         | models by confusing their customers into using the wrong ones.
         | 
         | When AGI finally is launched, adoption will be responsibly
         | slowed because it is called something like "new new Gemini Giga
         | 12.9.2xo IT" and users will have to select it from dozens of
         | similar names.
        
       | lutusp wrote:
       | > "... and similar speed to the previous generation of Haiku."
       | 
       | To me this is the most annoying grammatical error. I can't wait
       | for AI to take over all prose writing so this egregious
       | construction finally vanishes from public fora. There may be some
       | downsides -- okay, many -- but at least I won't have to read
       | endless repetitions of "similar speed to ..." when the correct
       | form is obviously "speed similar to".
       | 
       | In fact, in time this correct grammar may betray the presence of
       | AI, since lowly biologicals (meaning us) appear not to either
       | understand or fix this annoying error without computer help.
        
       | smcleod wrote:
       | I wonder when it'll actually be available in the Bedrock AU
       | region, because as of right now we're still stuck using mid-range
       | models from a year ago.
       | 
       | Amazon has really neglected ap-southeast-2 when it comes to LLMs.
        
         | dheerkt wrote:
         | Can you not use cross-region inference?
        
           | smcleod wrote:
           | 90% of our customers do not allow this due to data
           | sovereignty.
           | 
           | Bedrock here is lagging so far behind several customers
           | assume AWS simply aren't investing here anymore - or if they
           | are it's an afterthought - and a very expensive one at that.
           | 
           | I've spoken with several account managers and SAs and they
           | seem similarly frustrated with the continual response from
           | above that useful models are "coming soon".
           | 
           | You can't even BYO models here, we usually end up spinning up
           | big ol' GPU EC2 instances and serving our own, or for some
           | tasks running locally as you can get better openweight LLMs.
        
       | throwvc3 wrote:
       | What I'd like to know is whether prompt caching is available to
       | Claude on AWS Bedrock now.
        
       | FloatArtifact wrote:
       | It will interesting to see how this evolves. UI automation use
       | case is different from accessibility do to latency requirement.
       | latency matters a lot for accessibility not so much for ui
       | automation testing apparatus.
       | 
       | I've often wondered what the combination of grammar-based speech
       | recognition and combination with LLM could do for accessibility.
       | Low domain Natural Language Speech recognition augmented by
       | grammar based speech recognition for high domain commands for
       | efficiency/accuracy reducing voice strain/increasing recognition
       | accuracy.
       | 
       | https://github.com/dictation-toolbox/dragonfly
        
       | anotherpaulg wrote:
       | The new Sonnet tops aider's code editing leaderboard at 84.2%.
       | Using aider's "architect" mode it sets the SOTA at 85.7% (with
       | DeepSeek as the "editor" model).                 84% Claude 3.5
       | Sonnet 10/22       80% o1-preview       77% Claude 3.5 Sonnet
       | 06/20       72% DeepSeek V2.5       72% GPT-4o 08/06       71%
       | o1-mini       68% Claude 3 Opus
       | 
       | It also sets SOTA on aider's more demanding refactoring benchmark
       | with a score of 92.1%!                 92% Sonnet 10/22       75%
       | o1-preview       72% Opus       64% Sonnet 06/20       49% GPT-4o
       | 08/06       45% o1-mini
       | 
       | https://aider.chat/docs/leaderboards/
        
         | ianeigorndua wrote:
         | Are these synthetic or real-world benchmarks?
         | 
         | Answering myself: "Aider's code editing benchmark asks the LLM
         | to edit python source files to complete 133 small coding
         | exercises from Exercism"
         | 
         | Not gonna start looking for a job any time soon
        
           | zeroonetwothree wrote:
           | Example I chose at random:
           | 
           | > Convert a hexadecimal number, represented as a string (e.g.
           | "10af8c"), to its decimal equivalent using first principles
           | (i.e. no, you may not use built-in or external libraries to
           | accomplish the conversion).
           | 
           | So it's fairly synthetic. It's also the sort of thing LLMs
           | should be great at since I'm sure there's tons of data on
           | this sort of thing online.
        
         | artemisart wrote:
         | Thanks! I was waiting for your benchmarks. Do you plan to test
         | haiku 3.5 too? It would be nice to show API prices needed to
         | run the whole benchmark too to have a better idea of how many
         | internal tokens o1 models consume.
        
       | itissid wrote:
       | This can power one of my favorite use-cases.
       | 
       | Like find me a list of things to do with a family, given today's
       | weather and in the next 2 hours, quiet sit down with lots of
       | comfy seating, good vegetarian food...
       | 
       | Not only is this kind of use getting around API restrictions, it
       | is also a superior way to do search: Specify arbitrary
       | preferences upfront instead of a search box and trawling
       | different modalities of content to get better result. The
       | possibilities for wellness use cases are endless, especially for
       | end users that care about privacy and less screen use.
        
       | mtgentry wrote:
       | What are the licensing implications of this? If I'm Google, I'd
       | be pissed that my software is being used without a human there
       | looking at the ads.
        
         | KoolKat23 wrote:
         | And today they added a new AI abuse clause to their t&C's lol.
        
         | SturgeonsLaw wrote:
         | They just need to start tailoring their ads to things that bots
         | might be interested in
        
       | urbandw311er wrote:
       | > we have provided three tools > bash shell
       | 
       | November 2024: AI is allowed to execute commands in a bash shell.
       | What could possibly go wrong?
        
       | RecycledEle wrote:
       | How long until it is profitable the tell a cheap AI to "win this
       | game by collecting resources and advancing in-game" and then sell
       | the account on eBay?
       | 
       | I wonder what optimizations could be made? Could a gold farmer
       | have the directions from one AI control many accounts? Could the
       | AI program simpler bots for each bit of the game?
       | 
       | I can imagine not being smart enough to play against computers,
       | because I am flagged as a bot. I can imagine a message telling me
       | I am banned because "nobody but a stupid bot would score so low."
        
       | mercacona wrote:
       | I'm giving the new Sonnet a chance, although for my use as a
       | writing companion so far, Opus has been king among all the models
       | I've tried.
       | 
       | However, I've been using Opus as a writing companion for several
       | months, especially when you have writer's block and ask it for
       | alternative phrases, it was super creative. But in recent weeks I
       | was noticing a degradation in quality. My impression is that the
       | model was degrading. Could this be technically possible? Might it
       | be some kind of programmed obsolescence to hype new models?
        
         | KoolKat23 wrote:
         | You're expectations could just be increasing as you start
         | taking it for granted and are using other models.
        
       | wewtyflakes wrote:
       | I wonder if OpenAI will fast follow; usually they're the ones to
       | throw down the gauntlet. That being said, you can play around
       | with OpenAI with a similar architecture of vision + agent + exec
       | + loop using Donobu, though it is constrained to web browsers.
        
       | lossolo wrote:
       | Livebench updated
       | 
       | https://livebench.ai                 Model
       | | Global  | Reasoning | Coding  | Math    | Data    | Language |
       | IF            ------------------------------|---------|----------
       | -|---------|---------|---------|----------|-------
       | o1-preview-2024-09-12          | 66.02   | 68.00     | 50.85   |
       | 62.92   | 63.97   | 72.66    | 77.72
       | claude-3-5-sonnet-20241022     | 60.33   | 58.67     | 67.13   |
       | 51.28   | 52.78   | 58.09    | 74.05
       | claude-3-5-sonnet-20240620     | 59.80   | 58.67     | 60.85   |
       | 53.32   | 56.74   | 56.94    | 72.30
        
       | kingkongjaffa wrote:
       | Interestingly new claude only knows content up to:
       | 
       | > I'm limited to what I know as of April 2024, which includes the
       | initial Claude 3 family launch but not subsequent updates.
        
       | HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
       | The "computer use" ability is extremely impressive!
       | 
       | This is a lot more than an agent able to use your computer as a
       | tool (and understanding how to do that) - it's basically an
       | autonomous reasoning agent that you can give a goal to, and it
       | will then use reasoning, as well as it's access to your computer,
       | to achieve that goal.
       | 
       | Take a look at their demo of using this for coding.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2f7cjXjKI
       | 
       | This seems to be an OpenAI GPT-o1 killer - it may be using an
       | agent to do reasoning (still not clear exactly what is under the
       | hood) as opposed to GPT-o1 supposedly being a model (but still
       | basically a loop around an LLM), but the reasoning it it able to
       | achieve in pursuit of a real world goal is very impressive. It'd
       | be mind boggling if we hadn't had the last few years to get used
       | to this escalation of capabilities.
       | 
       | It's also interesting to consider this from POV of Anthropic's
       | focus on AI safety. On their web site that have a bunch of advice
       | on how to stay safe by sandboxing, limiting what it has access
       | to, etc, but at the end of the day this is a very capable AI able
       | to use your computer and browser to do whatever it deems
       | necessary to achieve a requested goal. How far are we from
       | paperclip optimization, or at least autonomous AI hacking ?
        
       | joshuamcginnis wrote:
       | Is there anything out there yet that will let me issue the
       | command:
       | 
       | > Refactor the api folder with any recommended readability
       | improvements or improvements that would help DRY up code without
       | adding additional complexity.
       | 
       | Then I can just `git status` to see the changes?
        
       | thecolorgreen wrote:
       | This looks really similar to rabbit's Large Action Model (LAM).
       | Cool!
       | 
       | https://www.rabbit.tech/rabbit-os
        
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