[HN Gopher] Mind Wandering: More than a Bad Habit (2018) [pdf]
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       Mind Wandering: More than a Bad Habit (2018) [pdf]
        
       Author : yamrzou
       Score  : 134 points
       Date   : 2024-10-20 06:29 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (labs.psych.ucsb.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (labs.psych.ucsb.edu)
        
       | tmshapland wrote:
       | Thanks for posting. Reminds me of Dan Gilbert's famous paper on
       | the subject. He took polls of people at random times during the
       | day when smartphones first emerged.
       | 
       | "In conclusion, a human mind is a wandering mind, and a wandering
       | mind is an unhappy mind. The ability to think about what is not
       | happening is a cognitive achievement that comes at an emotional
       | cost."
       | 
       | https://dtg.sites.fas.harvard.edu/KILLINGSWORTH%20&%20GILBER...
        
         | ocular-rockular wrote:
         | I'm so confused. I'm trying to understand what is wrong with
         | mind wandering but to me it doesn't seem clear.
        
           | yamrzou wrote:
           | Check this: Why Mind Wandering Can Be So Miserable --
           | https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-mind-
           | wande...
        
             | ocular-rockular wrote:
             | > What's more, people's negative moods appeared to be the
             | result, rather than the cause, of the mind wandering.
             | 
             | This is I think one useful take away from the article... on
             | the other hand...
             | 
             | > "A lot of us spend a lot of time trying to optimize the
             | objective reality of our lives," he told me. "But we don't
             | spend a lot of time and effort trying to optimize where our
             | minds go."
             | 
             | I'm so sorry but I refuse to take this seriously. The
             | modern day obsession with optimization is off the rails and
             | honestly is probably the thing that makes most people
             | miserable. My man lost respect with that line of thinking.
             | 
             | But I don't know mind wandering/daydreaming is pretty lit.
             | I like the distraction. Yeah, sometimes it can be a not
             | very positive experience but I feel like these researchers
             | either fail to address or don't discuss the distinction
             | between daydreaming and anxious thought.
        
               | IncreasePosts wrote:
               | I'm 100% with you on this one. I feel like people who
               | won't like mind wandering are heavy Type-A, control-
               | oriented personalities, who have some external objective
               | in mind, and are unsatisfied until that objective is
               | completed.
               | 
               | I don't think I've ever experienced a negative mood due
               | to mind wandering. If anything, negative moods for me
               | result in more fixation on a problem, where my mind will
               | _not_ wander, and will just constantly come back to a
               | single thing.
        
         | even_639765 wrote:
         | To say it's unhappy is not quite right, it's problem solving
         | and running simulations whose goal is naturally and properly a
         | source of low level anxiety - how to secure this organisms
         | future well being.
         | 
         | That wandering mind is conducting probability analysis on
         | potential future events and circumstances or the same
         | calculation on the actual nature of past events. It is trying
         | to secure its future security, to form an ugly phrase.
         | 
         | That's what this organism does with its mind. It runs
         | simulations to try to predict the future in an if this, then
         | that sort of way. That's its natural state. Seems harsh to call
         | that "unhappy".
         | 
         | Productive reasoning, the kind of mental activity we are proud
         | of and covet, in this context, is really less like thinking and
         | more like acting, like engaging in affirmative, directed
         | action.
        
           | nihhhh wrote:
           | > properly a source of low level anxiety
           | 
           | You're wrong on that, it would be more likely to produce a
           | high level of anxiety, to ensure survival in the short term.
        
             | even_639765 wrote:
             | No organism can sustain a high level of anxiety. We're
             | talking about the purpose of the universal default state of
             | mind. It can't be a state of high anxiety.
        
       | arijo wrote:
       | It's interesting how mind wandering can be analysed from
       | different perspectives:
       | 
       | 1. In meditation the main goal is precisely to free ourselves
       | from the monkey mind that seems to be the cause of all suffering
       | 
       | 2. In neuroscience mind wandering is seen as the brain default
       | mode unless we are operating within a goal driven mindset
       | 
       | 3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we
       | train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this
       | process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus
       | on the present moment
       | 
       | 4. From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind
       | wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations
       | that cause mental fogginess and impair focus
       | 
       | In my own experience as a long time meditation practitioner, what
       | really made the difference for me was regulating my blood glucose
       | levels by following a ketogenic diet. The change in clarity of
       | mind and focus were life changing to me.
       | 
       | I write a bit on my experience in my blog:
       | 
       | https://www.feelingbuggy.com/p/how-the-ketogenic-diet-helped...
       | 
       | Just my 2 cents on a fascinating subject!
        
         | hanniabu wrote:
         | What is "monkey mind"?
        
           | nickvec wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind
        
           | Aeglaecia wrote:
           | more broadly , the difference between reacting and responding
           | to a stimulus
        
           | even_639765 wrote:
           | It's called reverie. The stream of thinking that you
           | naturally have when you're not deliberately trying to focus.
           | 
           | Essentially, one thought leading to another which leads to
           | another and so on, without you having to make any effort.
           | 
           | Most people identify so much with their thinking, they aren't
           | aware of it as a "thing"; it feels like it's something you're
           | doing.
           | 
           | What are you thinking about?
           | 
           | But if you try to just pay attention, say to your breath,
           | going in and out, after a few seconds you'll discover you
           | slipped back into thinking, as described above, back into
           | reverie.
           | 
           | Continued failure, despite your increasing resolve, to stay
           | just listening to your breath reveals this fact: you can't
           | stop "your" thinking mind from recapturing your attention.
           | 
           | So it seems like a monkey, that is, a thing which jumps
           | around, from thought to thought, a separate entity from you,
           | one which will not obey you.
        
           | timacles wrote:
           | It is also known as karma mind in the Zen Buddhism.
           | 
           | Obsession over things that benefit you and avoiding things
           | that hurt you.
        
         | yamrzou wrote:
         | > From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind
         | wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose
         | fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus
         | 
         | Could you please provide some sources for this?
        
           | arijo wrote:
           | https://brainenergy.com
        
             | fao_ wrote:
             | Gosh! Another self-help book to "cure" my ADHD and
             | depression! /s
             | 
             | Sarcasm aside, we already have cures for these disorders.
             | It's absolutely insulting to struggle for decades dealing
             | with mental health problems, for the medical industry to
             | hold the cure (which, incidentally, is also the key to
             | allowing you to perform a lot of self-care steps which
             | would improve your mental health), and to then be told that
             | -- no, you won't receive the cure because you're not our
             | "ideal patient" so, instead, maybe try and bang your head
             | against this self-help book that "cures" the disease.
             | Obviously, the disease will be cured if you just try hard
             | enough! Or if you just, idk, Cope With It.
             | 
             | The majority of self-help books exist to generate money and
             | only end up reinforcing the point of view that if you are
             | struggling with mental illness it must be _your fault_.
             | They take the burden off the rotting, decrepit husk of
             | capitalism and put the burden back on to you.  "Oh, you
             | have struggled every day of your life with X? Ah, but this
             | self-help book solves X, so if it doesn't work that must be
             | your fault and you need to struggle harder with the methods
             | in the self-help book!"
        
               | soulofmischief wrote:
               | I hear you. I lost a best friend last year after moving
               | in with him and getting effectively bullied and belittled
               | over my ADHD, which he was adamant was made-up and was
               | just a skill issue that I could meditate my way out of.
               | After he became increasingly hostile and psychotic I had
               | to cancel my lease. Really screwed me up for a while.
        
               | arijo wrote:
               | Listen, stop playing with serious mental illness.
               | 
               | I suffer from severe mental illness since I was young -
               | ketogenic therapy is evidence based medicine and has
               | changed my life in a way medication never has.
               | 
               | When you downplay this emerging field of metabolic health
               | you're preventing many people to have access to a
               | treatment that can save their lives.
               | 
               | Please inform yourself better - do not careless spread
               | misinformation that can hurt other people.
        
               | soulofmischief wrote:
               | > Please inform yourself better - do not careless spread
               | misinformation that can hurt other people.
               | 
               | Please inform _yourself_ on ADHD research. When you
               | downplay the role of genetics in mental illness you 're
               | preventing many people from having access to life-
               | changing treatment. The irony of your last statement is
               | quite something.
               | https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC161723/
               | 
               | It's wonderful that ketogenic therapy has changed your
               | life. That has absolutely no bearing on people with
               | different a brain structure. Ketogenic diets can be
               | beneficial, meditation is essential, but there are
               | aspects of ADHD that simply cannot be fixed other than
               | introducing more dopamine into your brain.
        
               | arijo wrote:
               | Watch this
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUAbqXcSAzg&t=24s
               | 
               | It's a Oxford's Keto for ADHD & Depression Randomized
               | Controlled Trial
               | 
               | My personal story is with psychosis which is as severe a
               | mental illness as there can be - and I'm very thankful
               | there are doctors and researchers out there battling all
               | the misinformation about metabolic therapies.
               | 
               | People have different brain structures, but all brains
               | are composed of cells and cells depend on their normal
               | metabolic pathways to do their job.
               | 
               | I actually took dopamine reducing drugs for more than 20
               | years and I do know from personal experience how these
               | drugs mess up people's lives.
               | 
               | So, yes I'm following a ketogenic therapy to, via
               | metabolic normalization, regulate my dopamine pathways,
               | and after 20+ year of misery I finally feel like I have a
               | brain and a life.
               | 
               | I hope everyone has the chance to benefit from this
               | research as I am benefiting, because I do know how
               | painful it is to be prescribed these drugs for life.
        
               | shkkmo wrote:
               | > ketogenic therapy is evidence based medicine
               | 
               | There is only anedotal evidence and an animal study that
               | a ketogengic diet reduces ADHD symptoms. There are
               | reasons to be hopeful, but to call this "evidence based
               | medicine" is a lie.
               | 
               | I find it unfortunate that the Keto diet attracts such
               | fanaticism. It makes it much harder to find good
               | information about it.
        
               | arijo wrote:
               | You can find good information here -
               | https://metabolicmind.org
        
               | shkkmo wrote:
               | I couldn't find anything on that site that wasn't
               | marketing material. I didn't dig deep into that
               | organization but it appears to be run by the type of
               | fanatics that I am talking about. It is dedicated to
               | advocating for a certain type of treatment, not dedicated
               | to gathering what we do and don't know about the topic.
        
               | arijo wrote:
               | I'm not sure why you keep using the term fanatics in what
               | should be a civil cpnversation - it makes me think that
               | either you have an agenda you're trying to hide your
               | simply put you're an extremely rude person.
        
               | shkkmo wrote:
               | I'm using the word "fanatic" becuse I think it's meaning
               | is the closest to what I am trying to describe: "a person
               | marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning
               | enthusiasm, as for a cause." It isn't intended as an
               | insult or perjorative, but a descriptor.
               | 
               | I am coming from the perspective of being genuinely
               | interested and wanting to try such a diet but unable to
               | find any good information in the sea of fanatical
               | marketing.
        
         | detourdog wrote:
         | What I think is interesting in your point number 3. is that a
         | social framework be the reinforcement mechanism. Growing up in
         | an isolated environment could presents one reality growing up
         | in a strong social environment presents another reality.
         | 
         | The coping skills in one reality my not translate to the new
         | reality.
        
         | sva_ wrote:
         | > The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to
         | me.
         | 
         | Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast for
         | a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like any
         | problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more
         | advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to
         | actually be harder than it would usually be. In fact I quickly
         | decided that my time would be better spent walking around
         | outside in the woods.
         | 
         | Fasting isn't really the same as keto of course. But I wonder
         | if there are actual studies proving an increase in problem
         | solving skills during something like a ketogenic diet or
         | similar.
        
           | arijo wrote:
           | My ability to focus deeper and for a longer period of time
           | increased substantially - I'm afraid my IQ is still the same
           | ;)
        
           | Gooblebrai wrote:
           | > Feeling smart != being smart
           | 
           | Like many psychedelic users can attest to. The mindset of
           | enlightenment is just another mindset that can be produced by
           | the brain by doing the appropriate actions
        
             | Hugsun wrote:
             | There are is an unfortunately large proportion of them that
             | are fooled by the emotion and believe it.
        
               | mewpmewp2 wrote:
               | For me, I get drunk and I start to feel really smart and
               | enlightened, however next day I usually cringe, but who
               | knows maybe it was the drunk me that was the smart one
               | and the cringing me is just too narrow minded and
               | judgmental.
        
               | itronitron wrote:
               | It really depends on the task, some people are better at
               | speaking a foreign language after they've had a few
               | drinks.
        
               | fsckboy wrote:
               | oh, so that's why they become less intelligible to their
               | native friends!
        
               | gtirloni wrote:
               | I can confirm. While visiting Russia and having a few
               | drinks with friends, I could understand everything
               | perfectly even though my vocabulary was just a few words!
               | Just kidding of course but we seemed to be understanding
               | each other really well and later when everybody was
               | sober, we recalled it being a good time.
        
               | im3w1l wrote:
               | The sober mind has been trained to carefully construct
               | grammatically flawless sentences for the teacher. Hence
               | the sober mind is hesitant, fearful and prone to second
               | guessing itself.
               | 
               | The drunk mind he knows it not matter. Tempo and rhythm
               | importanter. No stopping. Know not how conjugate don't
               | conjugate. Not remember word loan other lingua. Say story
               | no stopping manier words is gooder.
        
               | vundercind wrote:
               | I found that I had to get over feeling like I was
               | _mocking_ a foreign accent, before I could become even
               | passably-for-someone-bad-at-it good at an accent for the
               | one other language I 've ever tried to semi-seriously
               | learn. In fact, leaning into "mocking" it was the fastest
               | way to improve. I bet that it's easier to get past that
               | perceived faux-pas when a few drinks in....
        
               | djmips wrote:
               | Same with music.
        
               | mewpmewp2 wrote:
               | I'm pretty sure a drunk mind can read what you commented
               | with ease and get the point, while a sober mind would get
               | stuck and think "what is this" and do multiple takes
               | before getting the point.
        
               | lynx23 wrote:
               | That. Joscha Bach pretty much summarized the problem with
               | just one word: Overfitting. I've since spotted the
               | pattern several times. People going all in on
               | psychedelics, seeing them as the solution to almost
               | everything. Leary and McKenna starting a cult. Esp.
               | McKenna and the true hallucination story make it pretty
               | obvious that these two brothers overdid it so much that
               | they couldn't just leave it behind, they had to follow up
               | and supposedly go deep on that stuff.
        
             | mistermann wrote:
             | > just
             | 
             | I am always skeptical of instances of normal consciousness
             | that claim to know the unknowable.
             | 
             | Like how could one even conclusively fact check such a
             | thing? Do people even try?
        
               | bubblyworld wrote:
               | I think if you're curious about this sort of thing you
               | have to go the route of the gnostic and try to experience
               | it for yourself (the bidirectional link between your
               | actions and your mental state, I mean). Meditation is one
               | approach, drugs another. Perhaps in the future we'll have
               | the tools to study this stuff more quantitatively, but
               | for now the mind seems to be mostly mystery to science?
        
           | nunodonato wrote:
           | I can't say I get smarter, but I have very vivid memories of
           | after-fasting days, and in the morning it was really easy to
           | focus on anything I would choose to focus on, the mind would
           | be extremely concentrated and still.
        
           | even_639765 wrote:
           | Your body requires nutrients to function. Deliberately
           | depriving your cells of those nutrients can't possibly be
           | good for them and likely does them harm. You evolved to
           | survive such catastrophes of course, but the key word is
           | "survive".
           | 
           | What states of mind can be induced by fasting is a separate
           | consideration, it seems to me.
        
             | s1artibartfast wrote:
             | I don't think deprivation is the right model. Cells are
             | still getting nutrients, just from different sources,
             | particularly fat. Animals have 500 millions of years of
             | evolutionary experience using this energy source.
             | 
             | I would be more concerned about the harm caused by not
             | using this metabolic pathway, at least occasionally.
        
               | even_639765 wrote:
               | "Particularly fat"
               | 
               | Fat contains lipids, not nutrients save the fat soluble
               | ones.
        
           | naasking wrote:
           | > Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast
           | for a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like
           | any problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more
           | advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to
           | actually be harder than it would usually be.
           | 
           | Exactly. Often touted for silly reasons, but it's definitely
           | 100% true: feelings are not facts. Feeling healthier does not
           | mean you are healthier. Feeling clearer does not mean you are
           | clearer, etc.
        
         | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
         | Do you have any thoughts about the possibility that it wasn't
         | ketosis but instead just a lack of gluten?
         | 
         | I've not tried either but I've heard the same result attributed
         | to making both changes (hard to know because they tend to
         | coincide).
        
           | arijo wrote:
           | I think the main issue is the unhealthy up and down insulin
           | spikes caused by modern high carbs diets.
        
             | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
             | That feels right. And it's good news too. I think I need to
             | make some kind of similar change and for similar reasons
             | and I'd really not like to eat and much meat as it takes to
             | maintain ketosis. But there are a lot of ways to be blood-
             | sugar-aware...
        
               | ljf wrote:
               | Look into the 'Slow Carb' diet - in simple terms you cut
               | out sugar/processed carbs and replace
               | bread/pasta/potato/rice with beans and extra veg.
               | 
               | Then one day a week you eat what you want. I personally
               | find it far easier to follow than Keto - and while the
               | affects aren't as extreme, when I was being strict with
               | it, I was at my leanest and healthiest I've ever been.
        
               | Melatonic wrote:
               | Do we really need to group potatoes in there ? They're
               | not processed carbs at all and have more protein than
               | most people think
        
               | ljf wrote:
               | They cause an insulin spike so yes - but you can bend the
               | rules however you want. For me just doing something where
               | I stop myself gorging on sweets/chocolate is half the
               | battle. Anything that spikes my insulin makes me crave
               | sweet foods.
        
         | primitivesuave wrote:
         | If you feel comfortable sharing, what is the meditation
         | technique you practice? I am a Vipassana practitioner and found
         | your observation to be anecdotally true - the commonly stated
         | reasoning for the prescribed diet in a Vipassana course is that
         | it minimizes the amount of blood diverted from other organs
         | (i.e. the brain) to aid in digestion.
         | 
         | In any case, I found your statement "nothing to lose and could
         | always return to my previous, though less-than-optimal,
         | lifestyle" quite inspiring - thank you!
        
           | arijo wrote:
           | My approach these days is to follow a meditation mantra:
           | 
           | 1. Slow down - the moment I'm aware my mind is no longer
           | quiet and alert because of some trigger (internal or
           | external)
           | 
           | 2. Stop suffering - I do a quick body scan for the associated
           | sensations along the body, tell myself this is just a
           | temporary mood change, it will go away the same way it made
           | its way into my body and mind
           | 
           | 3. Take a deep breadth - I focus on my breadth for a few
           | seconds and relax
           | 
           | 4. Let it go - I know I should not blindly believe any
           | thoughts or feelings that take over my mind and try to get
           | back to a relaxed state of mind
           | 
           | I do this all the time not just during a few minutes of
           | formal pratice. Its so ingrained in my way of being that some
           | people close to me say my personality drastically changed.
           | 
           | But there's still a long way to go.
        
           | timacles wrote:
           | Learn zazen and zen Buddhism meditation. All other methods
           | are inferior.
           | 
           | Simply observer your own thoughts and do not evaluate them as
           | good or bad. Do this until you forget who you are.
           | 
           | Simple yet extremely difficult
        
         | naasking wrote:
         | > 3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning:
         | we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this
         | process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to
         | focus on the present moment
         | 
         | I'm not sure how generalizable this is. Young kids that are
         | still developing seem very present in most circumstances. I
         | almost think we settle into mind wandering as we develop more
         | responsibilities and have to plan further ahead and think about
         | contingencies.
        
           | timacles wrote:
           | Not being present is an ego protection mechanism. Its classic
           | psychology. As children get older, they develop ideas of who
           | they are and naturally develop ways to protect their
           | emotions.
           | 
           | When peoples' mind wanders, they cling to things that made
           | them feel good or "Day dream" of things that would make them
           | feel good. They're not planning ahead or thinking about
           | contingencies.
           | 
           | Dealing with reality is hard, and being present means
           | continually facing this harsh world. You can observe this
           | with not just kids but adults in the modern world as people
           | are more and more detached from reality and can live in some
           | fantasy context by reinforcing with social media and internet
           | echo chambers
        
             | naasking wrote:
             | Frankly, calling it classic psychology isn't saying much
             | given the replication crisis. I think what you describe
             | definitely happens sometimes, but to paint all mind
             | wandering in this way seems like a stretch.
        
             | aaarrm wrote:
             | Any high level readings you can recommend on this? I'm not
             | looking for a textbook, but something to give me a general
             | overview of this and related concepts.
        
       | phaedrus wrote:
       | Does mind wandering in this context refer to daydreaming or does
       | it refer to blanking out? As someone with late-diagnosed ADHD and
       | likely also on the spectrum, I find myself struggling with both
       | of these. I engage in a lot of Walter Mitty-esque hyper realistic
       | daydreams, but I also have random periods of minutes of
       | completely blank mind. Both result in a lot of "lost time" for me
       | throughout the day. It runs in my family such we refer to it as
       | "the our-surname fog".
       | 
       | Skimming this paper it's unclear to me whether the author is
       | referring to one or the other, or both.
       | 
       | Interestingly I'm not sure that the mind wandering is separable
       | from my creativity and problem solving. Often I'll come out of a
       | blank period with the answer to something without consciously
       | having been thinking about it. I think of these periods of "lost
       | time" in my day as background processing - it's just my
       | misfortune I live in a world where it's not socially or
       | economically acceptable to space out for long periods throughout
       | the day.
        
         | even_639765 wrote:
         | I don't know about the blanking out part, but the rest of the
         | description sounds like a regular human being. That intense
         | daydreaming is, while not everyone's state, pretty typical of
         | people generally. People with powerful brains just experience
         | things intensely or deeply, including their own reverie. You
         | should harness some of that horsepower.
         | 
         | But you always knew that, because it's obvious
        
       | FailMore wrote:
       | Mind wandering (or more precisely the activation of the default
       | mode network) and dreaming are hugely linked. Interestingly the
       | "direction" of the mind wandering during rem sleep is the inverse
       | of anxious mind wandering. When we are anxious we have high
       | levels of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, but during rem
       | sleep it's 85% below _base_ waking levels.
       | 
       | In 2017 I wrote a paper discussing the implications for dream
       | content and functionality. Here is the link for it:
       | 
       | https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/k6trz
       | 
       | And it was discussed on HN here:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590
        
       | wslh wrote:
       | After skimming the article, I found it unconvincing. It feels
       | poorly structured, almost like something a high school student
       | might put together for a monograph. The references seem to be
       | there to add a sense of authority, but they lack clarity. Who
       | exactly is the article referring to? Is it talking about all
       | human beings, specific types of people like artists, or perhaps
       | Einstein when he was daydreaming?
       | 
       | There are plenty of successful people who possess this trait the
       | article critiques, which makes me wonder if one strong
       | counterexample is enough to challenge the entire premise. In my
       | view, the argument lacks depth and fails to consider broader,
       | real-world examples.
        
         | calf wrote:
         | I thought it was written by scientistic 1960s psychologists but
         | it is actually from 2018, peak CBT pseudoscience.
        
       | musicale wrote:
       | For me, undirected mind wandering (daydreaming, background
       | processing, actual dreaming and similar states) seems to be the
       | best source of creative thought as well as flashes of insight.
       | And semi-directed mind wandering (brainstorming as well as random
       | walks down pathways of thought) seems to be essential to problem
       | solving.
       | 
       | However, schools and workplaces rarely appreciate any form of
       | thinking that doesn't produce immediate tangible output with some
       | kind of economic value.
        
       | blueyes wrote:
       | My personal goal is to make my mental happenings more visible in
       | order to understand where I get off track while tackling a task.
       | 
       | I think knowledge work in general is plagued by the intangibility
       | of the processes that lead to its artifacts.
       | 
       | Acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) has a few things to say
       | about this. (Here's Jonathan Bricker's TedX talk for a glimpse:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTb3d5cjSFI&themeRefresh=1)
       | 
       | And a lot of what ACT does happens to echo what Buddhists are
       | trying to do in meditation.
       | 
       | Maybe the most important aspect of mind wandering -- ie
       | distraction -- is: what pushes us off track? In my experience,
       | that's often a feeling of discomfort that is tied to the
       | anticipated pain of a task. Sometimes that pain is tedium (I know
       | what must be done and don't want to do it), other times it's
       | complexity (I know I must do something but the exact steps are
       | not clear), and other times it's sheer difficulty; ie I'm not
       | breaking the task down into small enough chunks to feel able to
       | do them.
       | 
       | I'm looking for my own internal protocol to sense mind wandering,
       | identify which type of perceived difficulty caused it, and then
       | take the steps to stay on goal: if tedium, put on podcast and
       | forge forth; if complexity, back up and unravel the vague
       | aspiration; if sheer difficulty, break it down into small steps.
       | 
       | I feel like the very ability to slip into metacognitive
       | reflection depends heavily on my overall state, whether I'm doing
       | all the right things like sleeping and exercising in order to
       | monitor the internal course of work.
        
       | w10-1 wrote:
       | Interesting that they mentioned the default-mode network but not
       | the salience network
       | 
       | I experience mind-wandering as sampling salience signals when no
       | signals dominate (as they do in reactivity and goal- or motor-
       | planning).
       | 
       | Mind-wandering presents unlike meditative absorption, when
       | salience seems quiescent (or, conversely but rarely, sharp).
        
       | andyjohnson0 wrote:
       | What does it feel like to have a mind that doesn't (or only
       | minimally) wander? I find it hard to imagine such a state. Would
       | it even be psychologically healthy?
        
         | fluoridation wrote:
         | The mind wanders when you're doing something repetitive that
         | doesn't demand much attention, or when resting. So I guess if
         | you were engaged all the time in something that requires
         | concentration, your mind wouldn't wander.
        
       | metalman wrote:
       | focusing a small lense is great but it wont help inprove its
       | optical qualities which requires many small adjusments after the
       | fact of creating a blank lense,size, or ,light gathering ability
       | matters,but occlusions and outside conditions can determine the
       | useability of the image produced and as we all know,there is a
       | concerted effort happening to review all of the past ,randomly
       | generated data,stored on film and tape by the metric fuck ton,
       | for the secrets that exist there and only there,in sharp focus as
       | our relentless gazing and fidgetings will be mined some other
       | time and then as now,there are mad shamen gleefully and
       | deliberatly burrying hints of what is,but cant be held
        
       | banga wrote:
       | Interesting article. Key takeaway for me was: "Masicampo and
       | Baumeister (2011) provided further evidence that it is
       | specifically unresolved goals and concerns that trigger habitual
       | mind wandering." ... "Remarkably, making a plan freed
       | participants from this kind of habitual mind wandering."
        
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