[HN Gopher] A step toward fully 3D-printed active electronics
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       A step toward fully 3D-printed active electronics
        
       Author : gmays
       Score  : 180 points
       Date   : 2024-10-21 01:17 UTC (21 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (news.mit.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (news.mit.edu)
        
       | jayyhu wrote:
       | Reading the article, it looks like so far they only have a
       | working resettable fuse (a passive device), and only hypothesize
       | that a transistor was possible with the copper-infused PLA
       | filament. So no actual working active electronics.
       | 
       | And from the paper linked in the article[1], it seems the actual
       | breakthrough is the discovery that copper-infused PLA filament
       | exhibits a PTC-effect, which is noteworthy, but definitely not
       | "3D-Printed Active Electronics" newsworthy.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17452759.2024.2...
        
         | greenavocado wrote:
         | > So no actual working active electronics.
         | 
         | Oh so this is another scam like the MIT Food Computer. At this
         | point I assume everything coming out of MIT is a scam until
         | independently validated by disinterested third parties
        
           | frognumber wrote:
           | This shouldn't be a downvote or flag. It's a serious problem,
           | especially at elite institutions, and especially at MIT and
           | Stanford.
           | 
           | It's also not out-of-line with what credible sources observe:
           | 
           | https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/07/05/time-to-assume-that-
           | hea...
           | 
           | I'm affiliated with MIT, and have been for the vast majority
           | of my life, including at points in fairly senior roles. If
           | you shut people out pointing problems, it will never get
           | better.
           | 
           | There's an incredible urge to defend elite academic
           | institutions, but it's not in the interest of those
           | institutions. Remember your civics class (patriots criticize
           | their government institutions).
           | 
           | The only way I see this fixed involves a period where MIT is
           | viewed like a used car salesman in the public eye for at
           | least enough years to cause enough pain to lead to reform.
           | The endowment is big enough it'll do fine in the end. If it
           | keeps sliding to fraud, it won't.
        
         | hatsunearu wrote:
         | usually even these academia hype pieces have some grain of
         | utility but this one was so incomprehensibly bad that i was
         | genuinely confused if i'm reading it incorrectly. what the
         | hell?
        
         | IanCal wrote:
         | Hang on, can you explain why this is passive and not active?
         | 
         | > Harnessing the described phenomenon, we created the first
         | semiconductor-free active electronic devices fully 3D printed
         | via material extrusion. We demonstrate this breakthrough
         | through the implementation of monolithically 3D-printed logic
         | gates.
        
           | magicalhippo wrote:
           | They've created a Polymeric Positive Temperature Coefficient
           | (PPTC) device. As it heats up the resistance gets very high
           | very abruptly.
           | 
           | While it is non-linear, diodes are also considered passive
           | devices[2], as active is taken to mean _electrical_ control
           | of current flow.
           | 
           | In this case one could induce current control through thermal
           | means, ie an adjacent heating element, and if you potted that
           | in a box I guess you could argue the box is an active device.
           | But not the PPTC itself.
           | 
           | [1]: https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/technical_p
           | aper...
           | 
           | [2]: https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/t
           | ext/...
        
             | amelius wrote:
             | > active is taken to mean electrical control of current
             | flow
             | 
             | Is a transformer an active device? Asking because current
             | in one loop can control current in the other loop.
             | 
             | From there, are two copper wires an active device?
        
               | adrian_b wrote:
               | The current in one transformer loop does not control the
               | current in the other loop.
               | 
               | The power from one loop is transferred into the other,
               | there is no control. The same for two copper wires.
               | 
               | "Control" means that you can determine the value of the
               | power in some circuit by consuming less power to do this.
               | If you have to use the same power, not less, then you are
               | the provider of power, not someone in control, i.e. this
               | is the difference between bosses and the workers
               | commanded by them. The bosses do not lift heavy parcels
               | themselves, they order to some worker to do that.
               | 
               | A device that apparently looks like a transformer but it
               | is an active device is the magnetic amplifier. There are
               | 2 differences from a transformer, the magnetic core is
               | saturable during normal operation (any magnetic core is
               | saturable at a high enough magnetic field, but when that
               | happens in a transformer this means that the transformer
               | has failed, which leads to overcurrents that would
               | destroy the equipment unless a protection is triggered),
               | and the second difference is that the control coil has a
               | very high number of turns, so that a very small current
               | can saturate the magnetic core.
               | 
               | In a magnetic amplifier, the output coil is inserted in
               | an AC circuit where the power must be controlled. When
               | the core is not saturated, the impedance of the coil is
               | high and the output AC current is low. When the core is
               | saturated, the impedance of the coil is low and the
               | output AC current is high. Whether the magnetic core is
               | saturated or not is controlled with a very small current
               | and power on the control coil, which makes this an active
               | device.
               | 
               | Magnetic amplifiers have been heavily used during WWII,
               | especially by the Germans, who had improved them, and
               | they continued to be used for a few decades after the end
               | of WWII, when USA had captured the German technology,
               | because of their very high reliability, until the
               | transistor amplifiers have become reliable enough.
        
               | amelius wrote:
               | > The current in one transformer loop does not control
               | the current in the other loop.
               | 
               | You are right about the power, but the current in one
               | loop __does__ control the current in the other loop.
        
               | adrian_b wrote:
               | You use "control" in the wide sense of "dependency", i.e.
               | if two quantities are constrained by an equation, you say
               | that one quantity controls the other, only because their
               | values are not independent (which means that fixing the
               | value of anyone of the two quantities also determines the
               | value of the other quantity).
               | 
               | According to your usage, the voltage on a resistor is
               | controlled by its current, because the voltage is
               | proportional with the current (by the resistance of the
               | resistor), and also the current is controlled by the
               | voltage, because the current is proportional with the
               | voltage (by the conductance of the resistor), exactly
               | like in a transformer the input and output currents and
               | voltages are bound by proportionality relationships.
               | 
               | It is true that this meaning of "control" is encountered
               | in speech, but in engineering and physics "control" has a
               | precise meaning, more restricted that how you use it.
               | 
               | In the engineering use of "control", it is always
               | possible to distinguish which is the controller and which
               | is the controlled in a control relationship.
               | 
               | When "control" is used like you use it, the "control"
               | relationship is bidirectional and you cannot say which is
               | the controller and which is the controlled, e.g. between
               | the primary loop and the secondary loop of the
               | transformer, or between the current and the voltage
               | through a resistor.
               | 
               | For "control" in the engineering sense, unidirectionality
               | is an essential property. Real control devices have some
               | internal feedbacks that make them not completely
               | unidirectional, but this is considered a defect and
               | serious efforts are done to improve the unidirectionality
               | of the control devices. A device with total feedback like
               | a transformer cannot be used to implement any of the
               | known control methods, i.e. you cannot make amplifiers or
               | oscillators or logic gates with it.
        
               | amelius wrote:
               | But when electrical power is used to drive a simple DC
               | motor, then that power "controls" the speed of that
               | motor. When the power is removed and the motor keeps
               | turning (by e.g. a flywheel) then the power is delivered
               | back to the input. So in that example there is
               | bidirectionality, where you still "control" the speed of
               | the motor.
        
               | adrian_b wrote:
               | As I have said, some people, including you, are using the
               | word "control" in this wider sense, where it is
               | synonymous with "dependency".
               | 
               | Nevertheless, using "control" with this meaning in any
               | engineering text would be a mistake, because there
               | "control" must be used in its strict sense, to avoid
               | confusions.
               | 
               | In any system there are many dependency relationships,
               | corresponding to all the equations that are applicable to
               | that system, but much fewer control relationships. The
               | control relationships are quite important for the
               | understanding of the system, so they must be identified
               | clearly in a distinct way from other dependencies.
               | 
               | Etymologically, the right sense of "control" is the
               | strict sense, because it has never been applied to a
               | bidirectional relationship like that between the
               | quantities connected by an equation, but it originally
               | referred to a unidirectional relationship, between a
               | dominant party, the controller, and a subordinate entity,
               | the controlled, whose accounts were checked by the
               | controller.
               | 
               | In proper engineering terms it is not the source of power
               | which controls the speed of a motor, but the device that
               | is used to vary the amount of that power. When there is
               | no device to vary the input power, a DC motor works like
               | a transformer, the input voltage is proportional with the
               | output rotational speed and the input current is
               | proportional with the output torque. The input quantities
               | and the output quantities are dependent, so in the wide
               | meaning of "control" you can say equally well that the
               | input electric power is controlled by the output
               | mechanical power or that the output mechanical power is
               | controlled by the input electrical power. However the use
               | of this phrases does not provide any advantage instead of
               | just saying that you have a system of 2 equations that
               | connect the 2 input quantities and the 2 output
               | quantities, so given an appropriate pair of quantities
               | the other 2 are provided by the equations. On the other
               | hand, saying for instance that the motor speed can be
               | controlled by the excitation current of the motor
               | provides useful information by using the word "control",
               | because it is implied that this method of varying the
               | motor speed requires only a small power in comparison
               | with the output power.
        
               | magicalhippo wrote:
               | We say a changing current in one coil of a transformer
               | _induces_ a current in the other coil. It does not
               | _control_ the current of the other coil.
               | 
               | Any induced current is superimposed on top of whatever is
               | already there on the other side. This is different from
               | controlling the current.
               | 
               | For example, you couldn't block DC current passing
               | through the secondary side regardless what you did on the
               | primary side.
        
               | qwery wrote:
               | But transformers _don 't_ do that. The electricity you
               | put in one winding "comes out" on an/the other,
               | _transformed_ -- there isn 't one current controlling
               | another, there's just one current[0].
               | 
               | [0] _very loosely speaking_ , also I am not a doctor
        
             | adrian_b wrote:
             | Unlike a device with positive temperature coefficient, the
             | NTC thermistors (negative temperature coefficient) can be
             | used by themselves as active devices that provide a
             | negative resistance, which can be used to make amplifiers
             | and oscillators, exactly like with any other diodes with
             | negative resistance, e.g. tunnel diodes, IMPATT diodes,
             | Gunn diodes, Shockley diodes, diacs and so on.
             | 
             | Nevertheless, I do not think that anyone has ever made
             | amplifiers or oscillators with thermistors, because unlike
             | the diodes where the negative resistance has electrical
             | causes, the inertia of the heat transfer in thermistors
             | makes the achievable upper limit for the amplified
             | frequencies very low, typically under 1 Hz.
             | 
             | A device with positive temperature coefficient could be
             | used as an amplifier or as a switch (like a relay) only
             | together with a separate heater, as you say.
        
               | notjulianjaynes wrote:
               | I have seen old organs which used solid state VCOs that
               | also had an incandescent lightbulb near the circuit
               | boards to help maintain a stable temperature, and had
               | thought they must use a thermistor although I seem to be
               | mistaken as I can't find much information about that.
               | 
               | I did find this however:
               | 
               | https://northcoastsynthesis.com/news/temperature-
               | compensatio...
        
             | IanCal wrote:
             | > as active is taken to mean electrical control of current
             | flow.
             | 
             | Does the building of logic gates controlling a motor not
             | show electrical control of current flow?
        
         | bee_rider wrote:
         | Well, it is just "a step."
         | 
         | Whether or not it is newsworthy... eh, I mean, what is MIT
         | News? A campus newspaper? I'm pretty sure we had articles on
         | particularly big games of capture the flag in mine.
        
           | jayyhu wrote:
           | It looks like the editors have amended the title of their
           | article since this was initially posted. The original title
           | was just "3D-printed Active Electronics"
        
           | notjulianjaynes wrote:
           | What seems cool about this to me is that they seem to have
           | done it with a plain old FDM printer and copper impregnated
           | PLA. The devices are fairly large (mm scale) so presumably
           | anyone with a $200 ender and the correct filament could print
           | these.
           | 
           | I am able to find copper PLA for sale too, although I'm not
           | positive it is what was used in the experiment, and it's kind
           | of pricey (~ $100/kg).
        
         | atoav wrote:
         | Not to be that guy, but this is a typical situation as it
         | occurs a thousand times per week:
         | 
         | 1. Scientists make minor progress as part of a multi-year
         | effort, release a paper, paper features overly optimistic
         | outlook to get future funding
         | 
         | 2. Institute marketing department both hypes it up and dumbs it
         | down a little
         | 
         | 3. Popular science press picks it up and both hypes it up and
         | dumbs it down a little more
         | 
         | 4. Scientific literate readers read it and complain
         | 
         | TL;DR: Nothing new under the sun
        
         | jayyhu wrote:
         | I want to clarify that they actually did build a transistor-
         | like device, and not just hypothesize about it. I missed
         | section 3.2 when I initially skimmed the paper, which
         | demonstrates and shows the results of a working "transistor".
         | 
         | Unfortunately I can't edit my original post, so apologies for
         | causing any confusion.
        
           | netrap wrote:
           | This image shows logic gates they made:
           | 
           | https://www.tandfonline.com/cms/asset/5043deae-e79e-45fc-
           | bb7...
        
           | nativeit wrote:
           | It's cool for tinkering, and I think there are lots of
           | potential use-cases for conductive filaments and printing in
           | electronics, but I don't think transistors are necessary.
           | Silicon crystal development is really already a sort of
           | "additive manufacturing", and I'm not sure what purpose would
           | be served by re-inventing a method that would be starting so
           | far behind in terms of scale, precision, and cost in relation
           | to traditional semiconductor production (anyway, I assume
           | this idea is broadly for learning/experimentation/the lols,
           | rather than some earnest aspiration for using metal-bearing
           | printer filaments to produce active components).
        
         | westurner wrote:
         | From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759133 :
         | 
         | > _In addition to nanolithography and nanoassembly, there is 3d
         | printing with graphene._
         | 
         | And conductive aerogels, and carbon nanotube production at
         | scale
         | 
         | From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41210021 :
         | 
         | > _There 's already conductive graphene 3d printing filament
         | (and far less conductive graphene). Looks like 0.8ohm*cm may be
         | the least resistive graphene filament available:
         | https://www.google.com/search?q=graphene+3d+printer+filament...
         | _
         | 
         | > _Are there yet CNT or Twisted SWCNT Twisted Single-Walled
         | Carbon Nanotube substitutes for copper wiring?_
         | 
         | Aren't there carbon nanotube superconducting cables?
         | 
         | Instead of copper, there are plastic waveguides
        
       | lmpdev wrote:
       | I thought resettable fuses were already polymer based?
       | 
       | PPTCs are just plastic and metal with no semiconductors afaik
       | 
       | Is this actually an MIT article?
        
         | curtisf wrote:
         | From the paper,
         | 
         | > This is, to the best of our knowledge, the first report of
         | fully 3D-printed resettable fuses.
         | 
         | I think unique the contribution is that the entire circuit --
         | active and passive -- can be made with this one single
         | material. Normally, you need to use many different materials
         | and chemical baths to make a circuit with active components,
         | but using this metal-polymer mix, you can _just_ deposit the
         | metal and you are finished.
        
       | peter_d_sherman wrote:
       | >"They saw an interesting phenomenon in the material they were
       | using, a polymer filament doped with copper nanoparticles.
       | 
       | If they passed a
       | 
       |  _large amount of electric current into the material, it would
       | exhibit a huge spike in resistance_
       | 
       | but would return to its original level shortly after the current
       | flow stopped."
       | 
       | This is interesting -- _large amounts of current being associated
       | with increased resistance_...
       | 
       | I have never seen or read about something like that with respect
       | to other electronic components or systems.
       | 
       | It would be an interesting experiment to see if this effect could
       | be simulated, and if so, under what conditions, in non-
       | nanoparticle standard regular-sized electrical components...
       | 
       | I'm guessing (but not knowing!) that you'd you'd need a very high
       | amount of current (like something from a car battery), but at a
       | very low voltage, like maybe 0.1 or 0.01 volts (or less), and
       | maybe like a very thin long wire made of some mostly-conducitive
       | material, and then maybe something at some scale or low voltage
       | if the experimenter was lucky...
       | 
       | Anyway, large current associated with increased resistance...
       | I've never heard of that one before, except I suppose if the
       | current heats the electrical path so much that it destroys it...
       | which would be different for different materials, voltages,
       | cross-section of conductors, temperatures, etc., etc.
       | 
       | I'd assume that wouldn't happen at the nanoscale and/or in a
       | switching semiconductor... but perhaps I might be wrong on some
       | level...
        
         | elictronic wrote:
         | Lightbulbs? High amount of current increases resistance.
        
         | torginus wrote:
         | _large amount of electric current into the material, it would
         | exhibit a huge spike in resistance_
         | 
         | considering the low melting point of these 3d printing
         | plastics, they probably melted the wire.
        
         | tlb wrote:
         | PTC (positive temperature coefficient) thermistors do that.
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermistor.
         | 
         | They're used as auto-resetting fuses in many devices.
        
       | reader9274 wrote:
       | This is like posting "Landing on Mars" and all you did was catch
       | a reusable rocket.
        
         | dools wrote:
         | I think the "step towards being an inter planetary species" as
         | a result of catching a re-usable rocket might have merit in
         | that it makes construction of things in outer space easier
         | (although that's probably a charitable interpretation of the
         | statement).
         | 
         | My take on the Spacex is Mars habitation project is that Musk
         | will put a bunch of edgelords on Mars, and then not really be
         | able to follow up with adequate supply lines and the operation
         | will be offline for a hundred years or so while the climate
         | settles down. The people who live on Mars will then have been
         | there alone for a century and in the 2100s we will send a
         | follow up mission with hilarious consequences.
        
           | peepeepoopoo87 wrote:
           | Thunderf00t, is that you?
        
             | dools wrote:
             | Haha I had never heard of that dude, but I like the look of
             | his content thanks!
             | 
             | BTW you can tell I'm not Thunderf00t because he says that
             | "the taxpayer" paid $3 billion. I would never use "taxpayer
             | funding" language, I would only ever call it public money
             | (because Treasury creates money when it spends).
        
               | exe34 wrote:
               | by that logic tax should be zero?
        
               | dools wrote:
               | Not really, if there was no tax there would be no money.
               | 
               | The most succinct way that I have found to express the
               | relationship between taxation and spending is that
               | spending at the federal level is constrained by aggregate
               | spending this year, not tax receipts last year.
        
               | baq wrote:
               | taxes are how you don't have inflation.
               | 
               | the government can also destroy money about as easily as
               | it creates it, too. it isn't a politically (and usually
               | economically) desirable thing to do. when it's done, it's
               | usually via replacing the whole currency wholesale (e.g.
               | brazilian real).
        
               | exe34 wrote:
               | > taxes are how you don't have inflation.
               | 
               | or you know, don't print trillions to bail out failed
               | banks.
        
             | poulpy123 wrote:
             | You don't need to be thunderfoot to understand that
             | pretending you will start to colonize mars in the next
             | years lies somewhere between daydreaming and scamming.
             | 
             | Although I like when thunderfoot compare the archives of
             | what musk said with what actually happened
        
               | peepeepoopoo87 wrote:
               | The punchline is that everyone here thought being called
               | "thunderf00t" was a compliment, even though I meant it as
               | an example of someone who is consistently proven wrong at
               | every turn for casting shade on Musk's tech ambitions. It
               | seems HN's original techno-optimist hacker ethos is dead
               | in the grave.
        
               | dools wrote:
               | Or is the REAL punchline the fact that Musk has optimised
               | his entire empire to tap into the hacker ethos/ideals as
               | the world's biggest pump n dump scheme? He seems to just
               | do things that have the biggest wow factor because growth
               | stocks need to keep growing otherwise there is no point
               | in owning them.
        
           | latexr wrote:
           | He won't put anyone living on Mars. And even if he did, they
           | wouldn't last that long.
           | 
           | https://defector.com/neither-elon-musk-nor-anybody-else-
           | will...
           | 
           | https://www.acityonmars.com/
        
             | EnigmaFlare wrote:
             | That first article is just nonsense. The south pole can't
             | support life? It's been supporting humans for half a
             | century. Can't protect against radiation? Live underground
             | like Hamas did. Have to wait 9 months for food? We do that
             | on Earth too - if you're hungry, call a farmer and ask him
             | to plant some food then come back in a year or two when
             | it's harvested. We solve that problem by pipelining it,
             | just as you would on Mars.
        
               | latexr wrote:
               | The South Pole hasn't been "supporting humans", we forced
               | ourselves in there and survive _despite the conditions_
               | in an environment that is harsh but even so considerably
               | more hospitable than Mars.
               | 
               | All your other solutions are hand-wavey. Sure, let's
               | "just live underground" as if that's just as easy as
               | pitching a tent. And who on Earth is surviving nine
               | months without any food? You're talking as if Mars is
               | just turning right on Albuquerque.
        
           | photochemsyn wrote:
           | Musk hasn't to my knowledge financed any architectural design
           | projects for a long-term livable Mars habitat that can
           | sustain itself without constant inputs from Earth.
           | 
           | I suspect this is because the most casual analysis reveals
           | incredible difficulties - the structures would have to be
           | buried under a few meters of regolith to avoid constant
           | radiation burn, and the ration of human living space to plant
           | growing space (for food) would have to be about 1:6 I'd
           | guess. The amount of material required to build such a
           | structure for 100 humans? Let alone maintenance, etc.
           | 
           | If realistic plans were actually presented no doubt everyone
           | would start laughing, which is why we haven't seen any mock-
           | ups, VR models, etc.
        
             | dotnet00 wrote:
             | They're working on getting the issue of transport sorted
             | out first because the entire architecture is shaped by the
             | constraints and requirements of your transport system. The
             | amount of mass you can land, the energy needed for ISRU and
             | so on.
             | 
             | HN just has forgotten its hacker roots and instead gets off
             | to unconstructively sitting back and criticizing with
             | shallow gotchas.
        
         | resonious wrote:
         | It's a step towards landing on Mars. They aren't even claiming
         | to have landed.
        
           | reader9274 wrote:
           | Musk claimed we would be on Mars in 2022 so...
           | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/27/elon-
           | musk...
        
         | cladopa wrote:
         | "all you did was making rockets 10x cheaper", so you have plans
         | for making them 100x to 1000x? That has nothing to do with
         | Mars!
        
       | mikewarot wrote:
       | Long, long ago, Tunnel Diodes were going to usher in an era of
       | ultra-fast computing because their negative resistance region
       | allowed for current gain in the simple 2 pin device.
       | 
       | It didn't work out for most of it, but does show that you can do
       | logic without transistors.
       | 
       | Think of these as incredibly slow negative resistance devices.
       | Computing with them might be possible, barely. But sometimes
       | that's all you need.
        
         | AyyEye wrote:
         | They arent dead!
         | 
         | Diy 8ghz (sampling) oscilloscope with tunneling diodes
         | https://hackaday.io/project/167292-8-ghz-sampling-oscillosco...
        
       | torginus wrote:
       | While mentally stimulating, this sounds practically not very
       | useful. They're using a copper-doped polymer for printing, which
       | probably has way worse properties anything we make PCB traces out
       | of.
       | 
       | And the 3D part is gimmicky. We have built electronic systems of
       | monstrous complexity just with planar printers.
       | 
       | Wake me up when someone build a system that can reliably make
       | PCBs at home, with placing components, and doesn't cost an arm
       | and a leg, and is cheap and easy to run.
        
         | DoctorOetker wrote:
         | It would be nice to pattern diodes and semiconductors on PCB
         | without components as follows: etch circuit layout of a copper
         | layer, mask the traces so they don't oxidize, then heat the PCB
         | to have unmasked copper turn into Cu2O (cuprous oxide, a
         | semiconductor).
         | 
         | Anyone seriously attempting this should make sure they
         | understand solid state physics, and at a minimum understand
         | diffusion length of charge carriers and the different type of
         | contacts: Ohmic, Schottky ( for example
         | https://lampz.tugraz.at/~hadley/psd/lectures20/contacts.pdf )
         | 
         | Performance will be horrible, but in some situations
         | constructing and inspecting the device oneself can be paramount
         | ( bootstrapping a secure computational platform, implementing
         | formal verifier associated to a cryptocurrency, ... )
        
       | LASR wrote:
       | I am a fan of 3D printing. And I think you can probably get some
       | circuit traces 3D printed for some niche applications.
       | 
       | But active electronics? That's a huge stretch. But more
       | importantly, the economics just doesn't make sense. Components
       | already cost fractions of a cent. Small-run PCB prototyping is
       | like <$25 for 5 boards or so.
       | 
       | "A step toward..."
       | 
       | Maybe. But why?
        
         | seanthemon wrote:
         | in places where you have a 3d printer but you don't have an
         | active shipping line that can easily reach you. You can easily
         | prototype things or build electronics.
         | 
         | I also don't see this as the final result, printers could be
         | purpose built for this to speed up production and make size
         | smaller
        
           | dsv3099i wrote:
           | I suppose, but the 3D printer requires consumable inputs. So
           | without active shipping that printer is going to have a very
           | limited lifetime. There's always a corner case, like having
           | to 3D print on Mars or something, but thats a niche of a
           | niche.
        
         | dotnet00 wrote:
         | Being able to just print some simple electronics components
         | would massively simplify iteration and distribution of DIY
         | things, especially as auto-filament changer systems become more
         | accessible. As one example, being able to print a transistor or
         | two and some traces would allow for making projects which embed
         | something like an ESP32 dev board much more compact without
         | having to wait for weeks for custom PCBs to ship from China.
         | 
         | It's always weird to see people making arguments like this on a
         | forum titled " _Hacker_ News "
        
           | shultays wrote:
           | I think it is valid to point of feasibility of something. For
           | fast prototyping there are already breadboards or PCBs that
           | you can just solder wires on, so it doesn't really help with
           | tracing PCB lines. Printing transistors or other things that
           | are good and compact enough to use, even for prototyping,
           | seems to be indeed a stretch
        
           | xondono wrote:
           | > would massively simplify iteration
           | 
           | I seriously doubt it.
           | 
           | It's far easier and more effective (and economical) to have a
           | bunch of jelly bean components around in stock.
           | 
           | You're going to have a hard time 3D printing anything that
           | can be solderable (either the 3D printer needs to work at
           | high temperatures for DIY, or you need exotic solder that
           | melts at low temperatures).
           | 
           | If you have the need to fabricate quick PCBs for prototyping,
           | you'll be better served by a cheap CNC machine and some
           | copper foil blanks.
           | 
           | The only real promise I see is that you might, in the very
           | long future, be able to print custom multi-purpose devices,
           | that integrate the characteristics of non critical
           | electronics with mechanical elements, i.e. integrating NTCs
           | on cases or fan supports,..
        
       | gtzi wrote:
       | Also you may want to take a look at https://www.botfactory.co
        
       | wkat4242 wrote:
       | Interesting idea but millimeter-scale logic doesn't really have
       | much practical use in this day and age :) but it's s nice proof
       | of concept.
        
         | Taniwha wrote:
         | Ah - but it's not just mm scale - it's 3d mm scale - sure it
         | still needs to be smaller but if you can print into volumes
         | rather than just on 2d planes things get interesting
        
           | wkat4242 wrote:
           | Yeah, but a GPU would still be the scale of the pentagon :P
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | Even placing traces inside a print and then slotting in IC
         | boards would be useful.
         | 
         | Even at mm scale it changes the types of prints that can be
         | done.
        
       | sambeau wrote:
       | It's refreshing to see this labeled as a "step toward".
        
       | sebstefan wrote:
       | Oh my god. We might get real life redstone.
        
       | elif wrote:
       | Hmmm not sure I see the advantages of 3d printing vs lithography.
       | 
       | I mean, yes, technically, this approach could advance to catch up
       | with lithography. In practice? Yes we are working toward smaller
       | feature size in additive, but we are nowhere close to micro let
       | alone nano scale.
       | 
       | If the advantage is "hobbyists can do it" then I would say
       | "hobbyists can eaglecad too"
       | 
       | This seems like a detour or speedbump on our existing path toward
       | atom level logic production.
        
       | matthewfelgate wrote:
       | This is fascinating. I did thing a while back if it was possible
       | to 3D print primitive electronics.
        
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