[HN Gopher] Kurt Vonnegut's lost board game published
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       Kurt Vonnegut's lost board game published
        
       Author : musha68k
       Score  : 331 points
       Date   : 2024-10-20 16:44 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.polygon.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.polygon.com)
        
       | pvg wrote:
       | Related NYT piece
       | https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/crosswords/kurt-vonnegut-...
       | 
       | https://archive.ph/t3CBZ
        
       | karaterobot wrote:
       | > While The Sirens of Titan was a deeply cynical view of war, GHQ
       | is deeply uncynical. In fact, his own pitch letters note that
       | Vonnegut thought GHQ would be an excellent training aid for
       | future military leaders, including cadets at West Point. How are
       | modern audiences to reconcile those words from the same man who
       | wrote Cat's Cradle?
       | 
       | As we all know, authors can only write things they themselves
       | believe wholeheartedly, and veterans have uncomplicated
       | relationships with war. In general, people only hold simple,
       | consistent positions that are legible to others. That's
       | especially true if those people are introspective, creative
       | types. So I agree, and this is a head-scratcher for me just like
       | it is to the author of the article.
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | It is Polygon, after all.
         | 
         | But it's even worse than you say. A plot where a military is
         | used deceptively doesn't invalidate the whole concept of a
         | military.
        
         | gweinberg wrote:
         | I don't understand how a board game is supposed to be
         | "uncynical" in the first place.
        
           | vundercind wrote:
           | Monopoly is famously and on-purpose cynical, to pick a
           | familiar example.
        
             | jhbadger wrote:
             | "The Landlord's game", the game that inspired (or some
             | would say was ripped off by) Monopoly was cynical in that
             | its designer Elizabeth Magie was a devotee of the the
             | radical economist Henry George and the point was to teach
             | why landlordism was bad. But there is no evidence that
             | Charles Darrow, who designed Monopoly, was trying to make
             | any sort of political point.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord%27s_Game
        
               | pessimizer wrote:
               | Charles Darrow didn't design any part of Monopoly
               | excepting the excellent graphic design that Parker
               | Brothers went on to use. He used the same rules as the
               | Quakers he learned it from, and had gone into business
               | selling his very cool looking copies of it (assembled at
               | his kitchen table iirc) at a time when everybody was
               | making their own set.
               | 
               | The Charles Darrow lie was a way to remove Magie from the
               | game altogether (Parker Brothers _purchased_ the game
               | from Magie), and didn 't start until after she was dead
               | and couldn't complain about it.
               | 
               | It's a classic theft. They tried to steal her game, got
               | caught, bought it from her, and after she died pretended
               | that the graphic designer was the author.
               | 
               | edit: The Landlord's Game isn't one game, it's a class of
               | games with a similar structure (read the two patents and
               | watch how the details changed between them.) It has two
               | halves, of which Monopoly is the first half. The second
               | half is a cooperative game called "Prosperity" where
               | players reach rough equity by changing the rules on land
               | ownership, Henry George style. The first half is funner,
               | because the second half is really a proof that the first
               | half is no way to run a society. In the first half
               | everyone starts off in the same place with the same
               | resources, and through blind luck and minuscule skill
               | differences, one player ends up _owning_ all of the
               | others. In the second half, Magie is telling us that
               | society doesn 't have to work this way.
               | 
               | It's not "cynical", though, it's optimistic. It's not
               | cynical to say a sick system is sick, it's cynical to say
               | that systems _must_ be sick.
        
               | wahnfrieden wrote:
               | Sounds like the plot of Megalopolis
        
               | wileydragonfly wrote:
               | I listened to a Drew Carey interview once.. the man is
               | passionate about Monopoly. I don't think there's too much
               | strategy there besides "don't let property go unsold" and
               | "hoard houses" but he disagrees.
        
               | Chathamization wrote:
               | It depends on the people you're playing with. With an
               | active group there's a lot of strategy that goes into the
               | negotiations, and also a good amount of "push your luck"
               | gameplay. In my experience, a lot of the game comes down
               | to one or two extremely intense negotiation sessions that
               | everyone at the table ends up jumping in on.
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | It also depends on the rules you are playing. Monopoly is
               | a game that most people learn not from the rules but from
               | family and a lot of families have very different house
               | rules.
               | 
               | The in the box rules state that every property must go to
               | auction on first landing if the player refuses their
               | option to buy it at face value. There's a lot of strategy
               | possible in auctions, but a lot of house rules don't like
               | the auctions and either avoid them entirely or make them
               | much rarer than the in-box rules state they should be.
               | (In part because early and often auctions increase the
               | cutthroat feeling earlier in the game, whereas a lot of
               | house rules are about pushing the cutthroat stuff off
               | later into end game.)
        
               | Chathamization wrote:
               | True. You also need a group that knows what they're doing
               | and is trying to be cutthroat. Then the whole table is
               | trying to trade for color sets and dissuade others from
               | trading for color sets, which often leads to this absurd
               | mass negotiation where people are just throwing away
               | massive amounts of money and property in order to not be
               | shut out. Sometimes you end up bribing another player
               | just to keep them from undercutting a deal, or you work
               | with that player and cut out the original person you both
               | were haggling with, at which point they're trying to
               | bribe another player to intervene.
               | 
               | As long as you're using the correct rules and everyone is
               | playing the game fast, they know what they're doing, and
               | they're competitive, the game can be quite fun. It's also
               | a lot less time intensive than many other board games
               | where lots of people are negotiating.
        
               | LVTfan wrote:
               | Also important is that the supply of money, of houses and
               | of hotels is fixed.
        
               | pessimizer wrote:
               | There's an enormous amount of strategy, but all bound up
               | in a few points, and virtually all of them rely on social
               | skills and values that are in short supply these days.
               | It's virtually _all_ in the trading.
               | 
               | If you play Monopoly and you don't trade, you haven't
               | really played. And I don't mean all of the wacky trades
               | that some families do (although I'm not against that), I
               | mean trading money and property with other players. The
               | two keys are:
               | 
               | 1. In all games (not just Monopoly), people who cooperate
               | win. If you make a mutually beneficial trade with another
               | player, even if that player gets the better end of the
               | trade, _all other players lose ground._ If you cooperate
               | with another player by trading whenever there 's any
               | reasonable opportunity, the game is between you and that
               | player; no other players will have any chance of winning.
               | If you trade with everyone, and they don't trade between
               | each other, you will inevitably win. Cooperation is
               | making 1 + 1 = 3. No matter how that remainder is split,
               | the more you get in on that split, the more ground you're
               | gaining. Jump in front of every trade offer and offer a
               | better one.
               | 
               | Almost every player that I've talked to who doesn't
               | understand how Monopoly is a good game (and I've had a
               | lot of Monopoly discussions) is completely incapable of
               | understanding how a trade that gives somebody else a
               | Monopoly can result in you winning the game. They look at
               | you like you're stupid when you say you do it all the
               | time. We live in a sick, atomized and alienated society.
               | Getting the property that completes somebody else's
               | Monopoly means you have a _good basis for friendship._
               | 
               | 2. You may do a lot of little trades during a game, but
               | inevitably you are building up to the _big_ trade which
               | is your big gamble. You 've calculated all of the
               | probabilities, you've judged your competitors positions,
               | and you're going to offer another player (or maybe a
               | couple of other players over two succeeding trades) a
               | huge trade which will set the conditions for how the
               | random endgame will play out. You've made it look like
               | you're giving the other end of the trades a chance, but
               | you've calculated ahead of time that you've maximized
               | your own chances. If you're playing against naive
               | players, you'll always win if you do this _first_ and you
               | know what you 're doing. If you're playing against
               | someone skilled, it's a question of who calculated the
               | odds better and whether the dice hate you.
               | 
               | edit: Another game with a similar feel and a similar
               | benefit to cooperation is _Container_. A good game to
               | soften up people who don 't know how to trade is
               | _Bohnanza_. A game designed to show _aggressive
               | cooperation_ is _So Long, Sucker_ , which requires you to
               | cooperate to be in contention, and requires you
               | (mathematically) to betray someone's trust to win.
        
               | boredhedgehog wrote:
               | Wouldn't the game's rules make the point regardless of
               | the author's intention?
        
               | UncleSlacky wrote:
               | There were two sets of rules to the Landlord's Game,
               | monopolist and anti-monopolist. One of those was left out
               | of Monopoly, making it harder to get the point across,
               | I'd guess:
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord%27s_Game#Descr
               | ipt...
        
         | phmqk76 wrote:
         | When did snark replace thoughtful commentary?
        
           | NeoTar wrote:
           | 2014
        
           | kortilla wrote:
           | Around the same time websites like polygon came to the
           | forefront to produce rage bait for echo chambers rather than
           | thoughtful articles.
        
         | QuesnayJr wrote:
         | It's a long time since I read the book, but it strikes me as a
         | bizarre misreading. The article quotes the guy who discovered
         | the game as saying:
         | 
         | > In Sirens of Titan, there's this army of Mars which is really
         | a joke. No one in the army, [not] even the officers, are really
         | in charge of what's going on. They're all mind controlled.
         | Nobody has any real free will. They're just set up as a pawn to
         | be sacrificed, to make Earth come together, kind of Watchmen-
         | style.
         | 
         | The effort of the officers in the book is meaningless, but it
         | turns out the effort of all humanity for all of history is
         | completely meaningless, because humanity is being manipulated
         | by aliens to achieve a trivial purpose.
        
           | Chathamization wrote:
           | Which part of that quote do you think is a misreading? That's
           | exactly how I remember it unfolding in the book.
        
             | QuesnayJr wrote:
             | All of human history is manipulated by the Tralfamadorians
             | to get a single piece of metal to Titan to repair the
             | Tralfamadorian spaceship. The army officers, you, me,
             | everybody, we are all the result of Tralfamadore's plan.
        
               | Chathamization wrote:
               | Right, but I don't see anything in the quoted text
               | implying that's not the case:
               | 
               | > In Sirens of Titan, there's this army of Mars which is
               | really a joke. No one in the army, [not] even the
               | officers, are really in charge of what's going on.
               | They're all mind controlled. Nobody has any real free
               | will. They're just set up as a pawn to be sacrificed, to
               | make Earth come together, kind of Watchmen-style.
        
               | QuesnayJr wrote:
               | Because either the person quoted or the article itself
               | wants to highlight an apparent contradiction between
               | making a wargame and writing the novel. If the point is
               | that war is meaningless, then maybe there's a
               | contradiction, but if the point is that everything is
               | meaningless, then there isn't any more of a contradiction
               | than eating breakfast is a contradiction.
        
         | dkarl wrote:
         | I don't think the author doubts the _possibility_ , they are
         | just curious about the details, and about how Vonnegut himself
         | thought about it and what changes he went through (or didn't go
         | through) on the journey to his later antiwar novels. That would
         | be really interesting to have some information about. It
         | appears there might not be any first-hand information, but
         | maybe a Vonnegut scholar or enthusiast will read this article
         | and connect it to other information that shows a change in
         | Vonnegut's thinking about war.
         | 
         | I just read a memoir by the Chinese short story writer and
         | novelist Yu Hua. In the first three years of his career, he
         | wrote stories were full of graphic violence and death. He also
         | had constant nightmares in which he was hunted down and killed.
         | After one such nightmare, he started thinking about the
         | executions he witnessed during the Cultural Revolution as a
         | child. He grew up in a fairly sleepy town, so the "trials" that
         | were a regular occurrence during the Cultural Revolution were a
         | can't-miss public spectacle. When someone was sentenced to
         | death and taken away in a truck to be executed, he and his
         | friends would race to the execution site, hoping to get there
         | in time to see it happen. If they made it in time, they saw the
         | accused executed with a rifle bullet to the back of the head,
         | sometimes watching from just a few feet away. After the
         | nightmares brought these memories back, he decided that if he
         | wanted to stop this violence from being reproduced every night
         | in his nightmares, he needed to stop reproducing the violence
         | every day in his writing. So he stopped writing about violence,
         | and his nightmares went away.
         | 
         | If you only knew that he grew up in the Cultural Revolution,
         | wrote incessantly about violence for several years, and then
         | stopped, you could easily say that there was nothing strange
         | about that, it's not a head-scratcher, but hearing the story as
         | he tells it is much more interesting than simply saying "it's
         | not strange." Raising this question about Vonnegut, even if it
         | has been raised before, might eventually unearth some
         | information that fleshes out his story.
        
           | oorza wrote:
           | The same man who wrote Stranger In A Strange Land, arguably
           | the best sci-fi novel ever written and an ode to free love
           | and universal acceptance, also wrote The Fifth Column, where
           | a bunch of white people create a fake religion so they can
           | wholesale genocide every Asian person on the planet at once
           | because that's how the US would eventually win if we lost
           | WWII.
           | 
           | People contain multitudes.
        
             | jhbadger wrote:
             | And don't forget Starship Troopers, which wasn't satirical
             | as per the movie version. The book really suggested that a
             | militarized society was great, unironically.
        
               | WillAdams wrote:
               | No, the Federal Service was not completely military ---
               | that was just one small aspect of it --- as is noted in
               | the novel, most people in the Federal Service are simply
               | bureaucrats doing necessary government work (Skywatch is
               | specifically mentioned --- a search of asteroids to
               | determine which would have orbits which would intersect
               | with that of earth). The protagonist's best friend who
               | joins at the same time becomes a researcher on Pluto.
        
               | borski wrote:
               | While I agree with your premise, it's worth noting that
               | much of the military is also "bureaucrats doing necessary
               | government work."
        
               | WillAdams wrote:
               | Which is why there is a rather marked divide between the
               | "pencil-pushers" and "the tip of the spear".
               | 
               | That said, there are lots of instances of the clerk-
               | typist being told to grab his rifle and fill out a billet
               | for a patrol and similar things --- RH actually speaks to
               | this and other similar, but broader concerns in _Starship
               | Troopers_
        
               | borski wrote:
               | True. Honestly, I thought it was a great film, and I've
               | watched it a bunch of times. I thought it explored that
               | topic quite well.
        
               | ThrowawayR2 wrote:
               | Starship Troopers asked whether it would make more sense
               | to give control over society to those who felt a
               | responsibility to protect it and were willing to prove it
               | through personal sacrifice. That is an interesting
               | question which I wish other SF authors would pick up and
               | run with.
               | 
               | That Heinlein portrayed military service as acceptable
               | evidence of such responsibility is kind of dumb but
               | doesn't deserve being boiled down to "Heinlein said
               | militarism was good, haw haw".
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | While not a complete satire in tone, Starship Troopers
               | was very much a "bildungsroman" showing a child growing
               | up in that society and getting lectured about it and
               | growing up (and growing more cynical as childhood naivety
               | wanes). The book is extremely didactic and written "this
               | is the way society should/must be", but that doesn't mean
               | they were the actual didactic thoughts of the author
               | (especially as the protagonist does start to question
               | them late in the book, despite being a proponent of it
               | all in youth). As much as anything the book seems to me a
               | "gedankenexperiment" (thought experiment) meant to ask
               | hard questions of an extreme take on a possibly good
               | idea. The possibly good idea wasn't intended to build a
               | militarized society, but the fact that it led to an
               | awfully militarized one, seems to me to be an intentional
               | contradiction in the narrative that Heinlein asks of the
               | reader, in the _way_ of a satire /farce (even if not
               | actually satire/farce) to question the extremes of the
               | thought experiment, to question the didactic lectures for
               | their problems and failed assumptions.
        
               | LargeWu wrote:
               | Modern social media has beaten the idea of any nuance out
               | of its consumers. I think it's very challenging for
               | younger people today to understand satire and subtext,
               | even the very concept of a thought experiment. When one's
               | primary mode interaction with the world is short thoughts
               | that are designed for maximum engagement and outrage,
               | there's no room for subtlety. There has been a ratcheting
               | effect of social discourse, and one who dares defy the
               | orthodox positions, even to positions that were not
               | controversial 10 years ago, draws the wrath of legions of
               | anonymous mobs. Ultimately, people are rewarded for
               | increasingly polarized discourse and disincentivized from
               | moderation and especially from challenging thoughts. It's
               | no wonder people are incapable of anything but taking
               | something like Starship Troopers at face value.
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | I've been saying a bunch of similar things for a while
               | now. I sometimes refer to it as being past a Poe's Law
               | Singularity and good satire is hard/impossible/dead.
               | Poe's Law examples (someone taking satire as serious
               | surface level only takes) are too easy to find today,
               | including in the very names of modern startups and
               | corporations. RIP satire, you were a good friend once,
               | and so it goes. It's possibly a good thing Vonnegut did
               | not survive to see this world on the other side of the
               | singularity. (Or it is possible it only happened because
               | too many writers like Vonnegut passed away out of this
               | timeline.)
        
             | ThrowawayR2 wrote:
             | First of all, it's _Sixth Column_. Secondly, the  "white
             | people" were the remnants of the US military after the
             | United States had been invaded and conquered by a pan-Asian
             | bloc that emerged that had previously conquered and
             | absorbed the Soviet Union. The religion was just a ruse to
             | cover their rebellion. They beat the invaders using a sci-
             | fi mcguffin that, among other implausible things, could
             | selectively be tuned to kill based on genetics.
             | 
             | It's among his weakest novels but I'm not sure how anyone
             | would derive "genocide" out of it. IIRC, it was a plot
             | point that the invaders also treated Asian-Americans
             | brutally.
        
             | MassPikeMike wrote:
             | Certainly people contain multitudes, but in Heinlein's case
             | some of the diversity of viewpoint was intentional. The
             | happy universalism of "Stranger in a Strange Land", the
             | libertarianism of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress', and the
             | patriotic collectivism of "Starship Troopers" were, I
             | think, the result of Heinlein choosing three very different
             | political philosophies and exploring where they led. (This
             | is not my original theory, but I can't seem to find a
             | reference for it.)
             | 
             | To me it's one more sign of how masterful a storyteller
             | Heinlein was that his embrace of the contradictions was
             | conscious and not just a result of some sort of inner
             | conflict.
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | Also, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" ends in a Socialist
               | Revolution. (This is underscored in "The Cat Who Walks
               | Through Walls" where the moon weary noir world-hopping
               | protagonist comes from a worse version of the moon than
               | "Harsh Mistress", one where the revolution was stamped
               | out and is even more the dystopian "libertarian fantasy"
               | people think "Harsh Mistress" is. The protagonist then
               | later gets a chance to hop to "Mike's" version of the
               | Moon and it is a far more pleasant, much more socialist
               | place.) On the embrace of contradictions, it does seem to
               | escape many how in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" the AI
               | Libertarians hope to build on the Moon Libertarians dream
               | to exist says "Libertarians can have a taste of
               | Socialism, for a treat" as the main plot for the second
               | half of the book.
        
             | lynx23 wrote:
             | Wha? The best sci-fi novel ever written? An Ode to free
             | love?
             | 
             | Stranger In A Strange Land is so creepy, I started to
             | wonder about the sanity of Heinlein. A sex cult around a
             | pseudo-alien? C'mon. It feels like it was written by a 14
             | year old.
             | 
             | I would submit Incandescence as the best sci-fi novel ever
             | written.
             | 
             | But tastes obviously differ.
        
               | JadeNB wrote:
               | > I would submit Incandescence as the best sci-fi novel
               | ever written.
               | 
               | In a world with both Greg Egan and Ted Chiang writing
               | sci-fi, one has to exclude their novels from any best-of
               | comparisons just to give other authors a fighting chance.
        
               | zeroonetwothree wrote:
               | Ted Chiang hasn't published any novels.
        
               | lynx23 wrote:
               | Oh damn, DEI has finally made its way into books! The
               | Horror. I totally dsagree. We dont have to shoot down
               | exceptionally good peple just so that the mediocre are
               | noticed. I dont want to notice the mediocre, I dont have
               | time for their stuff.
        
             | throw4847285 wrote:
             | I think Heinlein's politics are quite consistent. "Right
             | wing libertarian who believes that some social mores should
             | be pushed and challenges and others need to remain
             | unquestioned." A tale as old as time.
        
           | Y_Y wrote:
           | > Why don't you write an anti-glacier book instead?
           | 
           | > What he meant, of course, was that there would always be
           | wars, that they were as easy to stop as glaciers. I believe
           | that too.
           | 
           | - _Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five_
        
             | Thrymr wrote:
             | Humanity is doing pretty well at glacier reduction. It is
             | true that total glacier eradication is a bigger challenge.
        
         | aprilthird2021 wrote:
         | This argument is wild to me because anti-war types and
         | protestors aren't, largely, against the military existing or
         | being effective or good at its job. They usually just disagree
         | with the aims or conduct of a particular campaign, or disagree
         | about the cost-benefit ratio. Most people know a military is
         | essential and want it to function properly
        
         | zoeysmithe wrote:
         | At the end of the day Vonnegut was a liberal not a leftist. A
         | lot of that philosophy is more or less "I agree with protestors
         | of the past but the current thing is 'complex." See democrats
         | on gay rights, trans rights, anti-racist movements, etc.
         | Chicago, perhaps historically the most liberal city, is deeply
         | racially segregated by design. Remember 'liberal' California
         | voted against gay marriage. Obama ran as an anti-gay marrige
         | candidate in 2008. The dems today have hypocritical views on
         | trans rights, migrants, the I-P conflict, etc.
         | 
         | Vonnegut is a good everyday liberal (which is a big part of his
         | commercial appeal imho, never overly challenging and fit in
         | with the neolib NYTimes-style intelligentsia of the time) and
         | good, if not great, writer, but people expecting him to be more
         | to the left than that are just going to be disappointed.
         | 
         | I'd even argue this game is a great example of liberal
         | idealism. That is to say the problem is sort of distilled down
         | and punched down to individuals (hey this game should be taught
         | to soldiers) instead of punching up the dynamics that actually
         | cause the suffering of war he's trying to address (capitalism,
         | MIC, white supremacy, oil politics, racism, colonialism,
         | xenophobia, etc). Or at least it leans far more towards the
         | former than the latter. I think "war is sad and bad" is a far
         | more marketable and acceptable view to liberal readers than
         | "hey we will need to fundamentally revisit and reform or even
         | replace things like capitalism, the modern world order, and
         | even things you might personally benefit from if we want a
         | peaceful world." These types of writers play up to middle-class
         | moralism and liberalism, which is a big market, but never
         | challenge it too much.
         | 
         | Vonnegut wasn't a Chomsky or a Marx. He was an Anderson Cooper
         | or an Obama or a Chris Christy.
        
           | wildzzz wrote:
           | Obama wasn't necessarily anti-gay marriage, but like most
           | liberals at the time (and like liberals for most issues), was
           | sitting somewhere in the middle. He was in support of civil
           | unions which would grant legal rights to gay partnerships but
           | would leave the labeling of it as a marriage up to the
           | states. A sort of "separate but equal" application to
           | marriages. Did he actually believe this in his heart? Who
           | knows, but that's what he said and did as a politician. It
           | almost doesn't even matter what candidates say, they are
           | looking to sway voters and donors, not actually make
           | policies. You really just have to wait until a president's
           | second term for progress to happen.
           | 
           | The slow march of progress has to navigate what is
           | politically acceptable for most people of the time these
           | changes take place in. Obama put in two of the justices that
           | granted gay marriage rights during his first term.
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | You're doing a thing here where you're equating "Democrat"
           | with "liberal". That's less true than people think today, but
           | it wasn't even a little bit true in Vonnegut's heyday. It
           | isn't perfectly accurate to say we had four political parties
           | in the 1960s (liberal and conservative Democrats, liberal and
           | conservative Republicans) but it's not far off. The
           | ideological sort picked up in earnest in the mid 1970s, and
           | wasn't a dominant force in politics until the election of
           | Reagan. Prior to Reagan, the Republican party platform was
           | open to abortion!
           | 
           | Chicago under Daley (and long before) was deeply segregated
           | (it still is). But Daley's was a conservative government.
        
         | righthand wrote:
         | Vonnegut was very sarcastic, to the point where his remarks
         | often appear prejudicial. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a
         | misinterpretation.
        
           | jrockway wrote:
           | So it goes.
        
         | hammock wrote:
         | Perhaps the expansion pack includes Ice-Nine
        
         | cookie_monsta wrote:
         | > As we all know, authors can only write things they themselves
         | believe wholeheartedly, and veterans have uncomplicated
         | relationships with war. In general, people only hold simple,
         | consistent positions that are legible to others.
         | 
         | This is all sarcasm, right?
        
           | krisoft wrote:
           | yes
        
           | samatman wrote:
           | Twaddle, actually.
        
         | progmetaldev wrote:
         | I think it's also somewhat useful to think about "the other
         | side" when holding a certain position. Of course, it may not be
         | based in reality, or be factually incorrect as to why someone
         | else holds a different viewpoint. I believe it's still
         | worthwhile as a thought experiment to try and understand an
         | opposing point of view, even if you'll never agree with it.
         | There can still be some compassion or common ground, especially
         | when it comes to something so life-affecting as war.
         | 
         | I do agree that authors can only write things they themselves
         | believe, or at least are marked with their own way of thinking,
         | even when trying to guess or infer the reasoning behind someone
         | else's differing belief or opinion. When I get in a heated
         | discussion online, and I can tell that someone is angered just
         | from me stating my opinion, I've often tried this thought
         | experiment to at least not take things personally if someone
         | comes after me with violent or explosive language. I'm sure
         | you've probably experienced it yourself, but some people online
         | seem to hold their own beliefs as law, and will act out when
         | challenged (even when your intention wasn't to challenge, but
         | just to state your own opinion).
        
       | donio wrote:
       | BGG entry: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/422478/ghq
       | 
       | How-to play video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfXPIhvFPjw
       | 
       | Space-Biff review: https://spacebiff.com/2024/09/25/ghq/
        
         | slowhadoken wrote:
         | Thank you.
        
         | snarf21 wrote:
         | All credit for this go to Geoff and his efforts to bring this
         | to life. He is a well-known game designer with dozens of
         | published games and founder of the podcast Ludology (no longer
         | an active host after 100s of episodes) that posits that _Games
         | are worthy of study_.
         | 
         | He is also a co-founder of the TTGDA (https://www.ttgda.org/)
         | that aims to be a guild like resource for designers. It is his
         | connections that got this into Barnes & Nobles. Also of note,
         | the TTGDA has recently convinced B&N to list game designers on
         | all detail pages and search results in the same way they do
         | today for books and writers. He also runs a free newsletter
         | called GameTek (https://gametek.substack.com/) that is a
         | continuation of an old podcast format he did where he does deep
         | dives on specific games and game concepts. In short, he's
         | awesome.
        
       | grahamplace wrote:
       | For any Vonnegut fans who find themselves in Indianapolis, I
       | recommend checking out the Kurt Vonnegut Museum and Library:
       | https://www.vonnegutlibrary.org/
       | 
       | When I visited for the first time this year, I learned about GHQ
       | and the upcoming release
        
         | cableshaft wrote:
         | I also recommend it. I was in the city for Gen Con last year
         | and decided to go and it was a very interesting museum.
         | 
         | Lots of letters and interesting artifacts and tidbits about his
         | life.
        
         | 0xEF wrote:
         | The nearby city of Bloomington, home of Indiana University,
         | also hosts Granfalloon each year. I believe it's in July? I
         | just happened to be in town for work and caught it.
        
       | treetalker wrote:
       | Is the game fun?
        
         | kylebenzle wrote:
         | Please let us know!
         | 
         | https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/kurt-vonneguts-ghq-the-
         | lost...?
        
           | DonHopkins wrote:
           | Please clarify what you meant when you said "All women are
           | whores", Kyle Benzle. Does that include your mother?
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33010046 (showdead=true
           | to view evidence)
           | 
           | kylebenzle on Sept 28, 2022 [dead] | parent | context |
           | favorite | on: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial
           | sca...
           | 
           | All women are whores. Sorry to break it to you.
        
       | consentfactory wrote:
       | Reminds me of Memoir '44.
       | 
       | https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir-44/
        
         | donio wrote:
         | Other than the theme the two have very little in common. Memoir
         | 44 is card-driven and uses dice for combat resolution so there
         | is a lot of randomness. GHQ is a pure abstract with no
         | randomness at all. On the gameplay side GHQ is much closer to
         | chess than to M44.
        
       | JoeDaDude wrote:
       | The path to getting this game published was not easy. At one
       | time, Barnes and Noble rejected the idea of publishing and
       | selling the game because "Not enough people know who Kurt
       | Vonnegut is" [1].
       | 
       | [1].
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20211201220314/https://www.getre...
        
         | failrate wrote:
         | And now his board game is sold in Barnes and Noble.
        
         | Daub wrote:
         | > "Not enough people know who Kurt Vonnegut is"
         | 
         | Barnes and Noble can go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut
         | [1]
         | 
         | [1] Vonnegut, Kurt. "Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's
         | Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death". Delacorte Press, 1969. p147
        
           | JoeDaDude wrote:
           | Indeed! Why [doesn't Barnes and Noble] take a flying fuck at
           | the mooooooooooooon? [1].
           | 
           | [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapstick_(novel)#Anthropo
           | logi...
        
         | dosinga wrote:
         | By now I wouldn't be surprised if more people know who Kurt
         | Vonnegut is than Barnes and Noble, at least globally
        
         | bunderbunder wrote:
         | This from the store that commissioned a portrait of Vonnegut
         | (among other authors) that featured prominently in their
         | branding and store decor?
         | 
         | https://www.behance.net/gallery/15574393/Barnes-Noble-Author...
        
           | jgalt212 wrote:
           | At large orgs, the left hand rarely knows what the right hand
           | is doing. Meetings, in general, are a waste of time, but
           | there's something to be said about keeping everyone on the
           | same page.
        
         | mmooss wrote:
         | I walked into a B&N in a wealthy neighborhood of a major city.
         | I went looking for the literature section, couldn't find it,
         | and was finally directed to a narrow set of shelves at the end
         | (i.e., the narrow edge) of an aisle. That was all they had.
         | 
         | Why and when did we discard all that literature?
        
         | cwyers wrote:
         | I remember one time going into a Books-A-Million and being
         | flabbergasted when I asked someone at the Information desk to
         | look and see if they had anything by T.S. Elliot in stock, and
         | she said, "What does the T. stand for?"
        
       | jb1991 wrote:
       | I was one of the first to get this game. Quite a while ago, pre-
       | release. Unfortunately, I never had a chance to play it. My dog
       | thought it was his new poop mat and took a massive giant turd on
       | it and the pieces. I feel like there's some literary symbolism
       | here.
        
         | actionfromafar wrote:
         | If there was poop on it, would you clean it or throw it out?
         | Thought experiment to decide if you should keep a thing around
         | or not.
        
           | jaapz wrote:
           | "Is it worth cleaning poop off of" just doesn't have the same
           | ring to it as "does it spark joy"
        
             | hotspot_one wrote:
             | obviously you've never had children.
        
       | billfruit wrote:
       | So many comments, but hardly any mention of how good/worthwhile
       | it is.
        
         | Tempat wrote:
         | It's only just come out, not many have played it yet.
        
         | tmountain wrote:
         | The SPACE-BIFF review gives some context: "Is GHQ a good game?
         | Sure. For its time. For its place. Had it appeared in 1956, it
         | may well have become the third great checkerboard game. With
         | its zones of control and special units, it might have helped
         | shape the coming century's approach to tabletop gaming.
         | 
         | But that isn't what happened. In our time and place, GHQ is a
         | serviceable game. It suffers from the same endgame as many
         | modern abstracts, packed with fiddly little moves that amount
         | to very little. We would write that it could have used a good
         | developer. But that doesn't really matter."
         | 
         | https://spacebiff.com/2024/09/25/ghq/
        
       | pragma_x wrote:
       | I'm not saying they are in any way all that similar, but if
       | you're doubting what an 8x8 grid can do for a turn-based wargame,
       | may I suggest Into The Breach:
       | 
       | https://store.steampowered.com/app/590380/Into_the_Breach/
        
         | RunSet wrote:
         | Or a game you may have heard of called "Chess".
        
           | soperj wrote:
           | Is it new?
        
         | senkora wrote:
         | Half-off on Switch right now. I might pick it up.
        
           | xoxxala wrote:
           | There is also Godzilla Voxel Wars, which is pretty much the
           | same gameplay as Into the Breach, if you prefer that theme.
           | Both games are good.
        
           | 100k wrote:
           | It's quite fun, I played a lot of it during the pandemic.
           | It's sort of like Advance Wars, but when you lose you can
           | choose to send one of your leveled up characters back in
           | time, which lets you use them again in a new game.
        
           | WickyNilliams wrote:
           | It's excellent! Sort of like chess but with mechs. And if
           | chess had multiple classes of pieces with different movesets.
           | I played well over 100 hours on switch. Each class requires a
           | different strategy to use effectively, and it's fun feeling
           | your way through them. Highly recommend!
        
       | Rickasaurus wrote:
       | This is a great how to play video
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfXPIhvFPjw
        
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