[HN Gopher] The feds are coming for John Deere over the right to...
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The feds are coming for John Deere over the right to repair
Author : rntn
Score : 266 points
Date : 2024-10-18 16:32 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gizmodo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gizmodo.com)
| bell-cot wrote:
| It's about time! Hopefully the FTC has their scythes good and
| sharp, 'cause Deere most richly deserves the worst that the Feds
| can do to 'em.
| ffujdefvjg wrote:
| Hope Deere gets what's coming to them and this sets a precedent
| for other companies. Next on the list should be devices remotely
| disabled when they're discontinued, which would have otherwise
| continued to work perfectly fine (like the Spotify car device).
| tmm wrote:
| Would also like to see a ban on firmware updates and
| programming tools locked behind a dealer (or support contract)
| portal and a ban on time-restricted software licenses for
| hardware.
|
| In line with remote-bricking discontinued hardware, these
| policies only serve to generate eWaste.
|
| If you sell programmable hardware, or really anything with
| embedded software, you should be required to make all the tools
| and software available to end users (doesn't have to be free,
| but shouldn't require a subscription or support contract
| either) in perpetuity.
|
| Licenses to enable additional hardware features are fine, but
| they must be granted for the life of the device (i.e. as long
| as it can be kept working), not an arbitrary "we think the life
| of this thing is 5 years". You should never have to keep paying
| to use a device you already bought.
| zelon88 wrote:
| > You should never have to keep paying to use a device you
| already bought.
|
| You think that's bad? I bought a "RAM upgrade" over the phone
| from HAAS for a CNC machine back in 2016ish. The upgrade was
| from 1mb to 16mb of RAM.
|
| The technician on the phone told me to go to the machine and
| punch in a series of keys followed by a 21 digit code. That
| was my ~$2,000 RAM upgrade.
|
| The RAM was always there. It was just locked away as "reserve
| value" for the manufacturer.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| The most upsetting version of this is when you actually
| have to remove hardware. "Upgrading" the machine entailed
| removing a certain screw from under the hood to double the
| performance.
| m463 wrote:
| > ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind
| a dealer
|
| Tesla won't let you buy parts unless you enter the vehicle
| vin. I believe some other things you have to order through
| the tesla app.
|
| I think those kinds of requirements should be disallowed too.
| artursapek wrote:
| Hahaha I hadn't seen that they're discontinuing that already.
| It seemed like such an obvious dud when I saw them announcing
| it. What a waste of resources.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| If you try to lobby against the people who invented lobbying,
| you're gonna have a bad time.
| chasil wrote:
| There was also a fatality in the last workplace strike.
|
| Deere seems to have bad relations with their employees,
| customers, and regulatory bodies.
|
| The shareholders should remove the board of directors.
|
| https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/2021/...
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| The shareholders don't care about any of that if they think the
| board did a decent job of propping up the stock price.
|
| Firing a board is generally risky, and the shareholders
| probably haven't fired them because even though the board has,
| almost objectively, not been good - firing them is likely even
| worse for the stock short term, and there aren't a lot of long-
| term, active investors left in the world.
| chasil wrote:
| The board's goal was to lock-in maintenance with computer
| security, which failed catastrophically. All previous
| generations of Deere tractors have on-board electronics that
| can be jailbroken.
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/john_deere_doom/
|
| Just for that failure, they should all likely be gone.
| adventured wrote:
| Their business is booming. That significantly overwhelms
| the concern you're raising.
|
| They have gone from $4.3b in operating income to $14.5b in
| three years, while their sales nearly doubled. That's an
| old industrial company boom the likes of which is almost
| never seen by those types of companies.
|
| By comparison what you're calling catastrophic is entirely
| trivial. It's not even in the room as a consideration
| compared to the soaring profits. Nobody is removing a whole
| board with that kind of profit growth.
| worik wrote:
| > Their business is booming. That significantly
| overwhelms the concern you're raising.
|
| Yes their profit is up, no it is unrelated to the
| concerns
|
| The company is acting in a way that luts the whole food
| system at risk
|
| They should be disbanded, by force. I recommend
| replacement with a farmer cooperative
| badsandwitch wrote:
| Tragedy of the commons is why short term is all that matters
| and will ever matter to non-ideological investors.
|
| If an action that hurts the stock short-term but will help
| int he long-term needs to be performed why would you as an
| investor enact it or even stay for the ride?
|
| You are better off either opposing it or selling your stock
| and then waiting to see if someone will enact the changes,
| then you have the "insider" information to know that the
| short-term stock drop was a good thing for the long-term and
| rebuy the shares cheaper.
| kennywinker wrote:
| > Tragedy of the commons is why short term is all that
| matters and will ever matter to non-ideological investors.
|
| Tragedy of the commons was an ideological essay designed to
| justify privatization of public goods. It was disproven by
| data before it was published. I am sure there are some
| hyper specific examples where it has happened as described,
| but as a "fact" about the world and as a justification for
| any course of action, it's highly suspect.
|
| https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-
| false...
| eutropia wrote:
| This is the first I've heard that it's false; however it
| seems like many times in my life I've observed something
| suffering, seemingly from lack of ownership despite being
| a common good.
|
| What do you call that if you can't call it a tragedy of
| the commons?
| SideQuark wrote:
| Tragedy of the common is a concept dating back to ancient
| times that has extremely broad empirical support
| throughout history. The essay you mention took the name
| from all this real world experience, and even if the
| essay is bad, the concept is anything but.
|
| A simple search finds more examples and references to
| literature than you can likely read in years.
|
| I'd recommend starting here
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
| b3ing wrote:
| Lots of people had to die for rights
|
| Ludlow Massacre, 1914 - 21 people - men including their wives
| and children were killed
|
| there are more
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Well, yeah, putting thousands of pedestrians in a spot that was
| designed for, essentially, zero pedestrians is a good way to
| get them killed. The fatality was a dude was hit by a
| motorist(who was found not at fault) as he walked in the
| darkness across a street. It's not like John Deere called the
| Pinkertons in to bust heads and the fatality happened that way.
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| The Feds are coming, and I hope they keep going and going until
| there isn't a single product or service left that dares dictate
| what you can do after the transaction is complete.
| pwillia7 wrote:
| Say hello to your new Subscription products
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I've been rolling the idea around that perhaps if a product
| is encumbered by a subscription then it's not a first sale
| and the product counts as inventory. And gets taxed as such.
| ddingus wrote:
| That is exactly how it should work.
|
| If the user does not own it, someone does and the
| accounting should play out accordingly.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Does it work that way for ISPs that "lease" their modems?
| This is the first time I've ever considered this idea
| that the hardware would still be inventory. Does
| inventory get taxed annually or monthly? Seems like the
| monthly lease fees would more than cover that.
| twh270 wrote:
| I don't know the first thing about such things, but I'll
| bet if companies were pushed on this they'd suddenly start
| asserting that it's a lease, which I think is typically
| taxed similarly to a sale.
|
| I hate the "everything's a subscription" business model
| that's taking over everything. We'll achieve peak serfdom
| when the air we breathe, water we drink, and food we eat is
| bought on a subscription model.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I'll bet if companies were pushed on this they'd
| suddenly start asserting that it's a lease, which I think
| is typically taxed similarly to a sale.
|
| A lease allows for the buyer to own the product, free and
| clear of the seller.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Not in real estate. There is technically no difference
| between leasing and renting, other than the things that
| are colloquially associated with. A lease agreement (or
| rental agreement) may or may not have a clause offering
| the borrower an opportunity to take ownership.
|
| Rent might also refer to the price portion of a leasing
| agreement (or rental agreement). So in shorthand usage,
| "the lease" might encompass all terms of borrowing
| something, including the price, but "the rent" might just
| refer to the price.
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| If it were feasible to charge you for your own
| heartbeats, companies absolutely would. Infinite growth
| is a poison pill idea - it brought us to where we are
| today, and would drag us to the future you outlined,
| unless the folly is abandoned.
| hathawsh wrote:
| Intriguing idea! Some thoughts:
|
| - If a consumer buys a car with heated seats and an option
| to activate the heated seats as a subscription, but the
| consumer elects not to subscribe, do the inactive heaters
| still count as inventory? If so, what if the car or heaters
| get destroyed but the automaker doesn't ever learn about
| the destruction?
|
| - Would this apply to e-books and media? In today's market,
| if I buy an e-book or media from a streaming service, I'm
| not buying a copy, but rather a revocable license with a
| one-time fee. It seems like that e-book or media is
| inventory for the book seller.
| seanw444 wrote:
| One of the very few things I can appreciate from this
| administration.
| euroderf wrote:
| Ukraine was at the forefront of white hat hacking their miserable
| machines.
| mmooss wrote:
| What happens if the GOP wins in a couple of weeks? Would there be
| any way these actions can be sustainable for more than a few
| months?
| doe_eyes wrote:
| Following the Reagan era, the GOP had a period of wanting to
| reign in the federal government, but I don't think that's quite
| true now. Folks like Trump or DeSantis are not pro-small-
| government, they just want to use it to advance different
| social policies. In the fight between farmers and Deere, I
| doubt they'd side with the company.
|
| Data point: Trump's VP nominee likes what the FTC is doing -
| https://fortune.com/2024/08/11/jd-vance-5000-child-tax-credi...
| NoNotTheDuo wrote:
| Alternative data points:
|
| > Under Project 2025, the Department of Homeland Security
| (DHS) would be eliminated, and the Transportation Security
| Administration (TSA) would be privatized
|
| > The Department of Education would be eliminated and
| oversight of education and federal funding for education will
| be handed over to the states
|
| > The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) would be
| eliminated and moved to the Department of Interior or the
| Department of Transportation if combined with the
| Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA)
|
| > The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)'s many regional
| labs and entire offices of enforcement and compliance and
| scientific integrity and risk information would be
| eliminated.
|
| > The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is to "privatize as
| much as possible" and close many hospitals and clinics.
|
| > The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) would
| be taken apart and send much of its work to states and other
| agencies
|
| > The Department of Justice (DOJ) would lose its independence
| and be under control of the President
|
| > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) would
| be drastically reduced and split into two entities: one
| gathering scientific data and one making public health
| recommendations and policies.
|
| Source: https://www.afge.org/article/project-2025-seeks-to-
| dismantle...
| e44858 wrote:
| How is "project 2025" relevant? It's a random blog post
| that was never endorsed by Trump or Vance.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > How is "project 2025" relevant? It's a random blog
| post.
|
| This seems to massively undersell the resources that went
| into it's creation and promotion.
| ref:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
| cyberax wrote:
| > Donald Trump Says Project 2025 Author 'Coming on Board'
| If Elected
|
| https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-says-
| project-2025-auth...
| psadauskas wrote:
| "never endorsed by Vance"?!
|
| Vance literally wrote the forward to an upcoming book by
| Heritage Foundation President Kevin D. Roberts, the
| organization responsible for Project 2025. It is
| absolutely relevant.
| Centigonal wrote:
| Ah, yes, that random blog of no particular note or
| influence, the Heritage Foundation.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > > Folks like Trump or DeSantis are not pro-small-
| government
|
| > Alternative data points
|
| Presenting that list as a counter suggests that "leave it
| to the states" necessarily means "more freedom for
| individuals", which is very questionable. Look what just
| happened to abortion rights.
|
| The ur-example in American history would be _literal
| slavery_.
|
| > The Department of Justice (DOJ) would lose its
| independence and be under control of the President
|
| Hold up, is this "big government" as measured by _employee
| count_ , or is this "big government" as measured by
| oppressive power?
|
| A dictatorship can get away with far fewer public-employees
| than a democracy, yet it's not the kind of "small
| government" anybody should want.
| mcmcmc wrote:
| Trump's VP nominee also completely flipped his views in the
| last few years to join the ranks of conservative grifters
| feeding off anti-immigrant and anti-"woke" sentiment. I
| wouldn't trust anything he says.
|
| The Trump/Vance admin will support whichever side they
| believe will benefit them financially, which won't be the
| farmers.
| freedomben wrote:
| It's ironic that farmers (traditionally thought of as less
| technical people, "workers of the earth", etc) and hackers
| (highly technical nerds writing operating systems and engineering
| compatibility parts) are so connected by this issue. Some of the
| farmers I've talked to understand the importance ownership and
| right to repair better than even many engineers.
|
| That said, I think John Deere is just the asshole willing to
| weaponize the legal system to enforce their dreams. The real
| problem is laws that protect IP like the DMCA and the patent
| system. I'm not saying we should just delete all those, but they
| are in bad need of reform and enable a tremendous amount of
| abuse. The abuse is only going to get worse unless we treat the
| cause(s) rather than just the symptoms.
|
| I'm glad the feds are giving John Deere some attention, but I
| really hope they are going to fix the lopsided system instead of
| just try to bully or micro-regulate John Deere into "voluntarily"
| allowing more repair. If we stopped unleashing the lawyers on
| people for modifying or interfacing with devices _they purchased_
| , it would shift the balance of power more toward the center
| (whereas currently the power is almost entirely on the side of
| the companies).
|
| Even if you have no interest in repairing or "tinkering" with
| your own stuff, you should be on the side of right to repair.
| FredPret wrote:
| Where did you get this stereotype of farmers?
|
| I've always though of them as business owners with special
| skills in growing things, auto mechanics, and logistics.
| mcmcmc wrote:
| People who've never lived in or around rural communities tend
| to stereotype those populations as country bumpkins.
| Newsmedia doesn't help.
| serf wrote:
| >Where did you get this stereotype of farmers?
|
| it's not a hard guess even if you don't share the opinion ;
| nearly every movie where 'farmer' is a plot point
| demonstrates a rural-living poorly educated family living in
| dust-bowl conditions and barely scraping enough resource by
| to feed the animals.
|
| grapes of wrath, wizard of oz, of mice and men, o brother
| where art thou, ballad of buster scruggs -- yes it's a
| stereotype , but it's a _common_ one in movies and
| literature.
| FredPret wrote:
| Maybe I haven't noticed this since I got inoculated against
| this notion by the reality of farmers early on.
|
| It still seems surprising to me that this idea can survive
| more than five seconds of thought. Farmers own tracts of
| land, lots of equipment, and have to navigate the market
| for their product, financing, capital allocation, weather
| patterns, all sorts of random events. They frequently have
| dozens of employees, and constantly have to negotiate with
| those, and with customers, and with vendors.
|
| All of this is in addition to the actual growing of crops.
|
| It seems like the most natural thing in the world that this
| type of person won't take kindly to being dictated to by
| John Deere (doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway) and
| would try their hand at a bit of hacking if needs must.
| AyyEye wrote:
| The mass media likes to portray farmers as straw-chewing
| hicks. It's the farmer stereotype.
|
| I even saw a conversation on here a few months back where
| someone on here not-so-nicely corrected a user that the big
| industrial farmers are smart but the rest of them are
| backwoods hicks that barely know what electricity is.
| t-3 wrote:
| It's endemic to urban areas of the US, where "rural" has the
| connotation of ignorant, backwards, stupid, inbred, etc., and
| "farmer" is the epitome of rural. Bog-standard xenophobia and
| classism.
| FredPret wrote:
| It's an interesting form of classism because I'd bet the
| average farmer is vastly better off than the average
| cubicle slave, in addition to being masters of their
| domain.
| genter wrote:
| > traditionally thought of as less technical people
|
| You've never met a farmer. Admittedly no one in my family is a
| farmer, but half of them are loggers, diesel mechanics, or
| heavy equipment operators. Most of them are ridiculously
| intelligent and able to fix anything that moves.
| mhuffman wrote:
| Agree with this. I do come from a family of farmers and they
| could do anything it seemed! Phone line repair, diesel
| repair, welding/fabrication, plumbing, hydraulic repairs
| (very dangerous), all manner of home repairs, light vet work,
| and the list goes on and on. BTW, the description I just gave
| was for a specific guy that dropped out of school in sixth
| grade.
| akovaski wrote:
| > The real problem is laws that protect IP like the DMCA and
| the patent system.
|
| That is A problem, but that is not the problem seen here. The
| problem here is trade secrets. Specifically electronic secrets
| that prevent third parties from fully servicing their own
| equipment. Like HP inkjet electronic restrictions that prevent
| people from refilling their own ink cartridges. This is still a
| problem without patent law, without copyright law, and without
| lawyers.
| simonsarris wrote:
| Many people (including comments on hacker news!) have called
| farmers the original hackers. The amount of bespoke problem
| solving needed is tremendous. Uniformity in farming is an
| extremely recent phenomenon.
|
| eg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626534
| dghughes wrote:
| Everyone was a farmer until not so long in the past.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| most of the named countries that are recognized today, were
| founded by hunting groups (defined by spoken language) that
| sought control over farmers and definitely over migrants..
| oddly, farming itself is cited as a major driver of armed
| conflicts
| spacecadet wrote:
| Yeah... I grew up on a multi-generational family farm and we
| hacked everything to repair or extend its functionality.
|
| Or just consider animal husbandry at its roots, OG bio
| hacking...
| cogman10 wrote:
| Not just animal husbandry. Modern corn is the result of
| centuries of genetic engineering.
|
| Farmers have long used bio engineering to make crops
| tastier or more resistant to disease or drought.
| spacecadet wrote:
| Oh I know, a relative was bio-chem at monsanto related to
| corn... but I normally avoid telling people that because
| of the stigma it carries (unfair considering the global
| impact to yield)... now he works tirelessly to reduce
| invasive species to reduce coastal erosion.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| > unfair considering the global impact to yield
|
| The Monsanto stigma is well-earned by its legal teams,
| much to the chagrin of its many Monsanto biochem
| employees that saw (and see) the company as a creator of
| good in the world.
| spacecadet wrote:
| Exactly, I dont deny this. He retired early.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| this purposefully blurs the distinction between pairing
| natural breeding versus invasive engineering.. often
| repeated by people in favor of invasive engineering
| spacecadet wrote:
| What an assumption. We're just having a fun conversation.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Because "invasive engineering" is just systematized
| "natural breeding".
|
| People that don't understand this think that the
| production of GMO crops is done by scientists gene
| splicing scary chemicals into food products.
|
| What is actually done is scientist get a genetic profile
| of crops, look for genes in crops that behave in a way
| they like, and bread crops with those genes. Exactly what
| "natural breeding" does, except for maybe the fact that
| it can be far more targeted with the genetic information.
|
| There is a downside to this, it often results in highly
| homogeneous genetics in plants. However, that's a problem
| we already have with "natural" processes (see: bananas
| and most citrus fruits).
| aegypti wrote:
| Yes this is why eg the French bombard seeds with
| extraordinary amounts of radiation to get desired sets of
| random mutations, it's much more natural and less
| invasive.
| culi wrote:
| OpenSourceEcology has the mission to create open source
| versions of 50 technologies they consider fundamental to
| "human civilization". One of the few technologies they've
| actually succeeded in open sourcing is a tractor
|
| https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/
|
| They also have a 3d printer, a microhouse, a CEB press, and a
| power cube
|
| https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/
| Xelbair wrote:
| > The real problem is laws that protect IP like the DMCA and
| the patent system.
|
| system created to protect inventors and authors from being
| abused by more powerful people(investors, corporations,
| publishers) is actually used to abuse everyone except powerful
| groups then yeah - it is a horrible system that needs to go.
| agtechthrowaway wrote:
| We're already seeing another dark cloud on the horizon with
| Deere. They're almost done with the work to move to single-pair
| Ethernet on their vehicle bus and leave the traditional
| CAN/ISOBUS connector behind.
|
| We have a number of things that sniff the traffic for important
| implement data and state and Deere is going to lock it all up.
| You'll be left with minimal data on the J1939 connector like
| the automakers did with OBD2.
| neuralRiot wrote:
| There's such a dark cloud for automotive too, usually there's
| a gateway between the diagnostic port/ bus and the vehicle
| network (usually CAN, LIN, Flex-ray) where you can still see
| traffic. They're moving towards ethernet(100base-T2),
| although it's easier to analyze the traffic the
| authentication is more complex and in many cases it requires
| "personalized login" which of course means paying a fee on
| top of your diagnostic tool subscription. In most cases re-
| programming used control modules is not permitted "for safety
| reasons". Some brands sell a short time subscription but
| others (like Mercedes Benz) do so in the EU but not in USA/
| CAN, there you need to buy a yearly subscription for around
| $4.5k plus taxes and fees and on top of their "approved tool"
| (another $2-4k).
| throwway120385 wrote:
| The feds are not in charge of key legislation like the DMCA,
| and their power to regulate things has been severely curtailed
| by the supreme court in recent months. If we want these things
| to change, we need to seek out all of the individuals in the
| House and Senate who oppose these things and mount systematic
| campaigns to replace them. And do the same thing at the state
| level. Demanding that the feds "do something" without clear
| legislation is not going to work anymore.
| moffkalast wrote:
| > I'm not saying we should just delete all those
|
| It wouldn't be the worst thing. 20 years for a patent may have
| been sensible a century ago but these days it's almost absurd.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > It's ironic that farmers (traditionally thought of as less
| technical people
|
| I see you've never met a farmer. The exact opposite of what you
| claim is reality.
|
| Farmers are highly technical and have come up with plenty of
| ingenious solutions to problems on their farms, any labor
| saving device they can dream up can save them lots of time and
| money. Repairing equipment quickly is an important skill to
| have when something shits out during harvest, the weather isn't
| going to wait..
|
| A farmer can work miracles with a welder, hammer, wrench, and
| pliers since they're generally put in the middle of nowhere and
| need to keep equipment operational.
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| Fix the root of the issue instead of it's consequences ? One
| can dream.
|
| Too much money and private interest here.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Farmers are - and have been for most of history - some of the
| Most technical people on the planet... probably more so then
| your modern "hacker" that probably couldn't actually
| disassemble and repair most of the things they own and use.
|
| I spent a summer working on a 3rd generation family farm, and
| it was one of the most technically competent workplaces I've
| ever seen. The owner had a degree in agricultural engineering,
| and dozens of patents from farming equipment he initially
| invented for his own use. Much of the equipment they used day
| to day was designed and built on site and they had a full
| machine shop, electrical shop, etc. Modern equipment like
| combines are so complex, automation heavy, and unreliable that
| they are usually operated by master mechanics that also weld,
| code, and are otherwise primarily technical people. When those
| multi-million dollar machines break- which happens daily- they
| are losing money fast and need to fix it immediately, right
| there in the field.
|
| The idea of farmers as uneducated non-technical people is an
| ignorant stereotype held by urban people that have no clue what
| farms are really like.
| taeric wrote:
| This will be a tough fight. I'm assuming warranty and second sale
| transactions will be much more complicated in some futures. In
| big purchases, I'd assume it would be a lot like Title Insurance
| on real estate?
|
| I'm curious where this will ultimately go. Feels like the best
| path would be a "minimal capability" set that machines need to
| support at basically a mechanical level? Probably gets a lot more
| complicated on some of the more advanced gear. Which, really
| doesn't help the narrative, as people try and show the basic
| tractors as the only thing impacted.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > second sale transactions will be much more complicated in
| some futures
|
| I recall a story of a person who bought a used Tesla which
| erroneously had some feature or another enabled -- sold by the
| second-hand dealer and purchased by the customer with the
| understanding that the car came with the feature -- until the
| feature was remotely disabled when someone at Tesla discovered
| the error.
| taeric wrote:
| Some of the features that are gated by cars are just silly,
| such that I'd want to know more about the feature before
| really having an opinion on this. Is why I would think a
| "minimal feature set" would be key.
|
| Even in this scenario, though, I would expect you'd need
| something like the Title Insurance to really protect people?
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| It would definitely not fall under such a feature set given
| that it's something that seemingly can be reasonably
| disabled and only otherwise increases the value of the
| vehicle. I recall that the buyer thought they were buying
| the thing with the feature and the seller thought they were
| selling the thing with the feature when someone uninvolved
| with the transaction (the original manufacturer, Tesla in
| this case) changed the deal after-the-fact. It seems a bit
| moot how one feels about the feature itself when they can
| observe that the people transacting seem to agree on the
| value of the feature.
|
| (Looks like it was something to do with Autopilot, for what
| it's worth.
| https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-
| aut...)
| taeric wrote:
| Ostensibly, I could see some "autopilot" like stuff
| relying somewhat on a central server. That said, I would
| also expect some form of local only capability to be
| available. Devil would be in the details.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| It was autopilot.
|
| The original owner purchased it and when the new owner
| created their account for the car it was removed.
| colechristensen wrote:
| It's pretty simple, none of this security lockout crap and
| hardware needs to be "source available" for electrical
| schematics and software.
| taeric wrote:
| I'm not clear what you mean, here?
| sailfast wrote:
| A John Deere lobbying ad about how much they have contributed to
| manufacturing was presented right next to this article.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| Ya, I got the same ad. I wonder if (1) they believe that the ad
| will reduce the bad-pr generated by the article, or if (2) it's
| just triggering because it matches some keywords (e.g. "John
| Deere"). The linked page looks like it's intended to generate
| good will, so I think it's case 1. But it really comes off as
| tone deaf to me
| alpaca128 wrote:
| I think all those targeted ad algorithms are effectively just
| really dumb. Whenever you look through the comments of a YT
| video criticizing a product/company you are almost guaranteed
| to find a dozen comments saying they got an ad from that
| company when the video started.
|
| But then again, what are they supposed to do when practically
| every corner on the internet only mentions John Deere in a
| negative context.
| janalsncm wrote:
| People may be even more likely to click on those ads if it
| will cost John Deere money.
| meowster wrote:
| Which are costs that John Deere will ultimately pass on
| to the consumer.
| tlqesHG wrote:
| The investigation is going on since 2021, _the filing was made
| public on Thursday_.
|
| Only a filthy redneck conspiracy theorist would conjecture that
| this is populist election influence!
|
| Prepare for the comments that "Lina Khan is on a tear" and this
| is all not influenced by the election at all.
| dcrazy wrote:
| It was made public because HAI filed a motion on Thursday to
| quash the FTC's subpoena. Do you think HAI did that
| intentionally to bolster Lina Khan's and the FTC's public
| image?
| calmbonsai wrote:
| I don't know where a "bright line" needs to be drawn here wrt
| jurisprudence, but akin to Monsanto, I have _zero_ doubt that
| Deere has been crossing it for decades.
| farceSpherule wrote:
| Farming.. The ultimate form of corporate welfare..
|
| "This is all a bit misleading. Farmers don't want to repair their
| own equipment. They want to be able to call someone on a Sunday
| when something breaks to come fix it. Which they can't do today
| due to restrictions on John Deere's IP that limits 3rd parties
| from offering that service."
| colechristensen wrote:
| There are two alternatives here:
|
| * your food is 5x more expensive as a result of protectionist
| tariffs
|
| * there are no protectionist tariffs and all of your food is
| produced in and imported from poor countries who can now use
| this as diplomatic leverage
| sojournerc wrote:
| You do like eating, right? Of all the things to subsidize, food
| seems like a good one.
| farceSpherule wrote:
| "The main complaining about Deere and other brands are the guys
| that get mad they hacked the code for the ecu and allowed the
| engine to rev higher and provide more horsepower. Thus lowering
| the life of the engine and bypassing certain things like DEF.
| Then something breaks, and the dealer denies the warranty cause
| it's obvious they messed with the code. So then they go ape shit
| and say they should be able to customize their vehicle however
| they want. I know this cause I used to work at a dealer and this
| happened every season. They read up on some forum how to bypass
| stuff and boom, I'm replacing their engine."
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Yeah, that's how the whole arms race started. Why JD didn't
| disseminate this fact though?
| fredgrott wrote:
| some of my Uncles are farmers....
|
| Most hate John Deere as their profits derive from cost savings in
| fixing their own equipment.
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| I'm not and do not know American farmer so I'm asking a genuine
| question, why did they keep buying Deere tractors ?
|
| I know for a fact that there are competitors, in Europe we have
| many other brand of tractors. It would make no sense to buy
| something that you know you can't repair.
| nosrepa wrote:
| I'd imagine you buy whatever color of machine you can get at
| your nearest dealer.
| dbcurtis wrote:
| Not so much nearest dealer, but nearest large repair-parts
| warehouse, even if you drive a few more miles to the dealer.
| colmmacc wrote:
| I'm not a farmer, just friends with some. Driving through tiny
| towns in rural America you often see small-time John Deere
| dealerships and repair shops. They are very very well
| established. I've heard that they have trade-in and financing
| programs that are very attractive; for many farmers their only
| option is to go with what is local and has the minimum down up
| front.
| dbcurtis wrote:
| JD has a good reputation for reliability, and at least in the
| area where my family farms, green tractors retain their resale
| value better than most. Also a well built-out dealer network
| for support. A key factor for my brother's operation is that a
| large regional JD parts depot is a 20 minute drive away. With
| any other brand, the mechanic might tell you: "Well, we can
| have the part here in two days." versus "If you drive to the
| depot now and pick up the part, I can have you running by the
| end of this afternoon." During spring planting and fall
| harvest, that is a big deal.
| theHackerPerson wrote:
| Thanks for that.
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