[HN Gopher] Show HN: Sava OS - A desktop interface for your web ...
___________________________________________________________________
Show HN: Sava OS - A desktop interface for your web browser
Hello, I'm Owen, co-founder of Sava OS. I think you've heard this
a thousand times by now; "We spend most of our time on the web
browser, yet nothing has changed." And then a "revolutionary"
product comes out that puts our links & tabs collapsed on the side,
with some extra features. Magical, right :)? Well, we tried a lot
of these products, and we also tried building one ourselves about
8years ago. But we felt like no UI can handle the same kind of
organization our desktop can, and that's when the idea first came
to our mind ~5years ago. For the past year, we worked on the side
to build the MVP you see today. But along these years, a lot of
thoughts kept popping up, and that's why this product has an OS in
it's name (it's still cooking :). Unlike other desktop-like
products that are accessible on the browser, Sava OS is not only
built and made to run natively on the web browser, but it actually
has some useful features to help with your browsing management -
and that's only the beginning. There's still a lot to consider
when it comes to shaping a modern, desktop-like UI that meets
today's needs.. We've got some exciting ideas and aim to go beyond
the traditional approach. We would really love to hear your take
on this.
Author : owenfar
Score : 84 points
Date : 2024-10-17 16:20 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (savaos.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (savaos.com)
| skadamat wrote:
| This is pretty neat! I wish web browsers on Mac could span to 2-3
| monitors because then you could really build a great spatial
| environment for web browsing.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQ&themeRefresh=1
| syndeo wrote:
| If you disable the following setting, windows should again span
| across displays as they used to:
|
| Settings > Desktop & Dock > Displays have separate Spaces
| hyperhello wrote:
| I'm going to give my honest opinion. (No, I haven't given you a
| login email to try it, it's not that compelling)
|
| We've known how to put labels and little images together to make
| icons for decades, we're all familiar with the idea. And some
| windows, I doubt you've added anything new. And text boxes. Your
| splash image shows windows, with checkboxes in them.
|
| Blatantly useless, so your presentation says, "This is just the
| familiar stuff, think of what you can do....." And what? What can
| I do? The browser is already the thing you're copying, in the
| browser. A "familiar environment"? Your "online home"?
|
| It's a toy, a demo of your hard work, but it does nothing, and
| your writeup is nothing. I'm glad you had fun. That's it. Sorry.
| owenfar wrote:
| I ask for nothing else other than honesty. And I thank you for
| speaking so bluntly about your thoughts.
|
| At this point I think you're right, it is indeed a toy and a
| demo of my hard work. But it's also available for others to try
| it, and hopefully together we can turn it into something
| substantial.
| byearthithatius wrote:
| This is a really good and mature response. He may not see the
| killer use case yet, but he wants to share it more broadly in
| case someone does.
| mxvanzant wrote:
| Where's the code? Is Sava OS free software / open source? Your
| site implies that it is, but I did not see any link to a public
| repo..
| _han wrote:
| I didn't see anything on the landing page that implied free
| software / open source.
| mzajc wrote:
| Not the original commenter, but "Own back your data &
| software" to me reads as if self-hosting is supported, at
| minimum. There doesn't seem to be an option to download the
| server software, however.
| owenfar wrote:
| You're right, we're not being clear enough regarding this. In
| the last section & in the letter we do mention & give hints of
| open-source, and that's because it will be.
|
| We really hope to have the code & documentation ready soon, but
| I can't promise any specific timelines at this point.
|
| We'll try to adjust the wording to be more concise
| bloomingkales wrote:
| I was thinking about something like this. It would be cool if
| each app has a discovery service of commands so AI can manage the
| ecosystem automatically.
| owenfar wrote:
| Not sure I understand what you mean about "each app has a
| discovery service of commands"
| bloomingkales wrote:
| Something like this:
|
| https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html
|
| That way AI can handle any arbitrary app so long as it has a
| public interface of discoverable commands. It will make sense
| of your apps and handle complex interactions between them.
| notamy wrote:
| I struggle to understand the use-case. What does this actually
| offer me over just using a normal web browser with maybe a
| customised new tab page? I made an account with a throwaway email
| to play around with it, and I honestly didn't understand why I'd
| want to use this over whatever workflow I have now.
| notamy wrote:
| Coming back to this some time after my original comment, a few
| more thoughts in no particular order:
|
| > _a modern, desktop-like UI that meets today 's needs_
|
| What are "today's needs"? Why does the standard desktop
| interaction paradigm not work with them? Why does "move it into
| the browser" solve the problem?
|
| > _it actually has some useful features to help with your
| browsing management_
|
| I can see some potentially-interesting features in the demo
| GIFs, but they don't make it clear why I'd want them through a
| desktop-style interface. Why not as just a browser extension or
| similar? What does the desktop paradigm provide that's a
| meaningful enhancement for the end user and not just a tech
| showcase?
|
| > _And then a "revolutionary" product comes out that puts our
| links & tabs collapsed on the side, with some extra features.
| Magical, right :)?_
|
| It's a bit overdone, sure. I won't disagree with that. But
| _why_ does it keep happening?
|
| imho it happens because the standard tab setup of "put all the
| tabs at the top of the window" had obvious shortcomings for a
| meaningful-enough group of users, and moving it to the side --
| be that as a list, a tree, ... -- had benefits that those users
| appreciated, and that the more-average user may also find
| benefit in. Tabbed browsing had a significant benefit over the
| traditional windowed browsing, and imho it seems that moving
| them to the side has enough of a benefit over the "standard"
| one-row top-only tabs that people are moving to it.
|
| But what does the desktop paradigm then offer over that? From
| my quick experimentation, I couldn't even figure out how to get
| value out of the base UI; this discourages me from then wanting
| to then try to ex. install your browser extension.
|
| ---
|
| Who's the intended user? Is it specifically for desktop-heavy
| power users? Is it for less-technical users to gain a better
| interface for browser interaction?
|
| Why floating window management? With a surprising amount of
| people's interactions with the web moving to mobile
| (smartphones, tablets), I could see the floating window
| interactions actually being a drawback. Tiling windows might be
| better, but again that's potentially very user-dependent.
|
| Jumping off of the floating window question, _where_ is the
| intended use-case? Is this for desktop users? Are tablets a
| supported use-case? Smartphones? Where 's the line drawn? If
| you intend to support more than the desktop user, how will you
| handle the lack of precise touch? The current UI has
| annoyingly-small icons on desktop; if mobile is an intended
| use-case I could see this very quickly becoming infuriating.
|
| How is accessibility handled? Is keyboard-only interaction
| possible? What about screen readers? As a disabled person, I'm
| pretty tired of seeing user interfaces that are incredibly
| unfriendly to me because they rely on precise click/tap targets
| that I struggle immensely to properly use at times.
|
| The product might benefit from having an actual tour / demo /
| etc. It's _very_ unclear what the true use-case for it is.
| Every major (desktop) OS already has drag-and-drop, multiple
| workspaces, floating windows, ... Having some kind of walk-
| through would probably go a long way towards helping people
| understand.
|
| ---
|
| I don't say these things to discourage you, but this just
| doesn't feel ready for release yet. The sheer number of
| comments here on HN expressing negativity about this, at least
| to me, signal that the product's use-case isn't clear and that
| it's not obvious why this would be _wanted_. As a tech person,
| I very well understand the desire to make cool tech and show it
| off, but cool tech does not a product make. This reads as a
| tech demo being dressed up as a product, which explains a lot
| of the negativity here.
|
| Your comment below[0] makes it a lot more clear that this is
| less "real serious product" and more "toy/tech demo/similar,"
| and if it had been expressed as such from the start, I think
| the reception would have been better.
|
| Hopefully these thoughts are of use! I do love seeing
| experimentation outside of the standard ways of interacting
| with things, and I think that with more refinement and
| experimentation you might find something interesting with this
| idea.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41872816
| hidelooktropic wrote:
| Came here to say this. I see these come up on HN every year or
| so. They're often beautiful and commendable for that reason,
| but I never understand what anyone would actually use them for.
| Typically I see them start out strong, marking that features
| are still in Beta, but then it just kind of ends there.
|
| In the abstract, I can feel out there being some kind of use
| case I'm not thinking of. Maybe something along the lines of
| having a familiar mental model for organizing the data in the
| browser, (not the data in the web apps running in the browser).
| Things like bookmarks, tab groups maybe, browsing history.
|
| But what is shown is more of an honest attempt to create a full
| OS in the browser which will always be inherently inferior to
| the operating system the browser is running in, even with
| advances to browser engines.
| finchisko wrote:
| it would be cool. to sava be able open two cloud disk providers
| side by side and copy files from one to other.
| mzajc wrote:
| Tangential, but rclone[1] supports this kind of workflow with
| the `copy` subcommand, if you don't mind spending both download
| and upload bandwidth at once.
|
| [1]: https://rclone.org/
| owenfar wrote:
| This will definitely be implemented, in fact we mention it on
| the website as the next major feature. We would also like to
| support NAS & FTP as well, but most likely start with the major
| cloud providers.
| saintfire wrote:
| Now I can fight with the awful UX of managing windows _within_
| the window, too.
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| But I already have a desktop interface... my browser is running
| in it.
| sottol wrote:
| It just needs an "app" to run a JS-based X86 Emulator for the
| infinity mirror effect.
| owenfar wrote:
| :D
| kjksf wrote:
| If you asked me to login with Google and got my email and other
| info, then don't ask me to also pick a password. Bait & switch
| and I won't stand for it.
| owenfar wrote:
| I understand your pain, but this is the best we could do right
| now to be able to implement the privacy features we mention on
| the website. Think about it as MFA by default, and Google is a
| super simple way to pass the first method.
|
| Links & tabs contain a lot of personal data, and I'm sick of
| hearing "Encryption at rest", while not knowing that all the
| admins can still see everything.
|
| It sucks I know, but at least the encryption & anonymity are
| rock solid.
|
| We'll definitely try to find other solutions in the future..
| and by the way, passwords don't need to be complicated ;)
| There's no restrictions
| ferbivore wrote:
| But this is a web app, so the encryption happens in a blob of
| JavaScript that you can update at any time. Users still need
| to trust you as much as they would if the data was encrypted
| server-side. You could maybe claim "application-level" "rock
| solid" encryption if your app was entirely implemented within
| the extension, so users could at least pick one version of it
| to trust, but it doesn't look like that's what you did?
| josho wrote:
| Wow, difficult crowd.
|
| It reminds me of the initial Dropbox launch. Their pitch was a
| USB drive for the Internet, which was torn to pieces by this
| crowd. Then, Dropbox built a video showing how it worked, and
| their product went viral.
|
| Folks here, myself included, struggle to understand why we need a
| desktop in our browser. Your animated gifs don't show enough for
| someone outside of your product to 'get it'. Record a video and
| walk us through your killer use case, I think it's there, but I
| don't quite see it yet.
| smt88 wrote:
| Dropbox was torn to pieces because it was a feature (folder
| sync) raising money as a company.
|
| It was obvious why it was a useful feature, but it wasn't
| obvious how they'd build a moat.
|
| This product is unlike Dropbox in that it isn't solving a
| problem anyone has. I'd go further and say it immediately
| repelled me because it looks like it would make using my
| computer even worse.
| latexr wrote:
| > which was torn to pieces by this crowd
|
| Was it? I'm looking at the thread right now and the top level
| comments say things like: "This is genius"; "I must say Dropbox
| looks great!"; "This has great potential!"; "Cool stuff
| indeed"; "your app is something that I've been wishing someone
| would make for some time now"; "This is an interesting
| application"; "It looks great man"; "Nice Application"; "I like
| the app"; and on and on... It's mostly praise and some well
| reasoned and polite criticisms.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
|
| And even if you're referring to the infamous BrandonM comment,
| not only is that _one_ comment but the reply (which is almost
| always glossed over) shows it was a valuable and positive
| interaction. dang had a nice writeup on it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27067281
| turtlebits wrote:
| Dropbox solves a problem. I'm not sure what this is other than
| a tech demo. If it was a toy project, sure it's cool. Trying to
| sell it as a product? That's a reach...
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| "there's ideas, then there's execution".
|
| "there's beauty, then there's usefulness".
|
| Sorry about the flak OP but it's better you hear these comments
| now than when money's on the line.
| lostemptations5 wrote:
| Love it! It's like a Chromebook or Samsung DEX in my browser.
| yu3zhou4 wrote:
| I'm not sure why you got so many negative replies. As some other
| commenter pointed out, it can be a good use case for reusable,
| copyable desktops. Another use case I though about for some time
| - if we build an OS (a "traditional one") that consists of just a
| browser and only necessary stuff for running a browser, your
| product would be a great fit as well
| byearthithatius wrote:
| So a less functional ChromeBook? I'm struggling to find the use
| case for your use case. Maybe for kids education if you want
| them to have limited capabilities? But otherwise it is just
| another OS with way less software support.
| owenfar wrote:
| As it stands, that's true. However, with the continuous
| advancements in WebAssembly, and if we open a store where
| people can install open-source software, a lot of great
| things could come from that.
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| But... why not just let people install open source software
| as is? Stripping down the OS to "just" the browser leaves
| most of the OS. At that point we're arbitrarily restricting
| users to apps that run in the browser for no real reason or
| benefit.
| auggierose wrote:
| I have not checked out any of this, but I guess the main
| advantage is that you can log in from anywhere, on any
| device that has a web browser, and have your full OS?
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| I've seen this "we need a stripped-down OS just for browsers"
| idea floating around a lot recently, and I just don't think it
| holds water. The browser is too big. Stripping down the OS just
| to accommodate the browser still leaves most of the OS.
|
| Browsers do a _lot_. You 're going to need the same kernel,
| almost all the same userspace libraries, and many of the same
| background processes as a fatter OS.
| gacklecackle wrote:
| Everytime i see someone writing "journey" i instantly feel
| repulsed by a... tech bro VC vibe maybe?
|
| https://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com
| Lerc wrote:
| I have had a go at building one of these.
|
| https://fingswotidun.com/images/notanos_4.png
|
| It was predominantly designed to be as dumb a server as possible
| and do everything client side. It implemented a basic file IO
| interface so you can write files and get directory listings.
|
| Anything fancy client side could be leveraged by the ability to
| execute commands on the server and providing a local named socket
| for commands to connect to to establish a websocket connection to
| the client. The core server then plays no further part and it's
| up to the executed command to send a message to open a window and
| provide the html/js for the content which will handle all future
| websocket messages for that window. Essentially all windowed apps
| with a complex server side component are free to implement their
| own protocol.
|
| That simple architecture allowed me to construct some nice
| interactions
| https://fingswotidun.com/images/notanos_drag_drop.gif
|
| I didn't think it could be a commercial product though. I
| appreciate that being a 'Product' might afford one the resources
| to develop such a thing more fully, but then it is just another
| thing to buy.
|
| I fundamentally believe that things like this have to be free and
| open source to be viable long term. Otherwise you just have an
| impressive dead-end like GeoWorks was, back in the day.
| owenfar wrote:
| We're definitely going to make this open-source. But the code
| and especially the documentation is not ready for that yet
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Tested on Chrome = Not built by a hacker. Immediate pass.
| Zhyl wrote:
| Why is it called Sava OS when it isn't an operating system.
| Shouldn't it be Sava DE or something?
| owenfar wrote:
| Technically, you can say that an OS is a term for managing
| complexity. We're managing the complexity that comes with the
| modern age of the internet & the web platform. At this stage, I
| agree it might sound like an overstatement, but it's aligned
| with our vision and where we eventually want to take it.
| hollandheese wrote:
| Windows 3.1 called and wants its MDI interface back.
| zbowling wrote:
| I clicked the comments, searched for "MDI", and feel seen. Then
| I felt old. Bringing back old UX patterns like they are new.
| owenfar wrote:
| Can't argue with that.. best I could do for now :)
| mzajc wrote:
| I have given your service a try, and while the UX was impressive,
| I was bothered by an apparent lack of encryption. The landing
| page, the privacy policy, and your mission statement all make
| many mentions of encryption and security, yet (besides TLS) there
| doesn't seem to be any encryption going on as far as my browser
| is concerned.
|
| I created a new folder, created a text file in the folder, and
| added some text to the file. The name of the folder, the text
| file, and the content itself were sent to the server unencrypted
| (besides TLS).
|
| I'm sure your server encrypts the data immediately, but this adds
| unnecessary trust when client-side encryption could be employed.
| It also enables an attacker or a potential future operator to
| sniff the data before it is encrypted. That's no good!
| klaussilveira wrote:
| Curious: is WebCrypto compatibility better now?
| owenfar wrote:
| This is a really good point and I have thought about this
| multiple times along the way. Web Crypto API seemed ideal, but
| it brought its own complexities, especially if you want to have
| quick access on multiple browsers/devices.
|
| It's true that as it is, it still requires trust. We do have
| our own custom servers, and we made sure that no logs related
| to personal data are ever stored, and encryption is done on the
| application level before it is sent on the DB server.
|
| This is something I want to see implemented 100%
| mzajc wrote:
| Personally, I feel like the bold statements about encryption
| should be removed until this is implemented to avoid
| misleading users.
|
| Out of curiosity, is the data encrypted with a client-
| provided secret (eg. a password hash, or something that would
| otherwise be impossible to extract from the server), or is
| the secret stored on the server?
| owenfar wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree about it being a bold statement. Our
| description is very clear, and our approach is still much
| safer.
|
| I see hundreds of products slapping "Encryption at rest" to
| make people believe their data is safe :) Yet, it's
| accessible by anyone that controls the server...
|
| We also go further into details in the privacy page too.
|
| The data cannot be decrypted without a client-provided
| secret. We'll make sure to be more transparent regarding
| all this.
| pino82 wrote:
| That's a lot of trust for a project that is proud for having it
| tested with one browser, and wants to hear from you on Facebook
| or Discord. My trust in such a project would be quite minimal.
| owenfar wrote:
| It was tested and should work on all browsers (though the
| extension is only chromium based at the moment).
|
| But for the sake of simplicity, we placed that badge since
| it's the most familiar icon to the wider audience. Initially
| most of our visitors thought it's an OS they have to
| download, this helped solve some of the doubts.
|
| I had to create Facebook just for this, because whether we
| like it or not, it's a huge platform that shouldn't be
| missed.
| AyyEye wrote:
| Emulated desktop Operating system written in a high level
| language, compiled to an intermediate assembly language, run on a
| virtual machine written in JavaScript, executed in a javascript
| engine, run inside of a sandbox inside of a browser, inside of an
| operating system just like the proprietary one one being run at
| the bottom of the stack.
|
| All so you can "create text files" on a proprietary platform that
| won't work without the internet. What a time to be alive!
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| I mean when you describe most modern consumer software
| products, they're pretty much that bloated.
| owenfar wrote:
| And most software today requires an internet connection
| anyways, even if it is installed natively...
| AyyEye wrote:
| Most consumer (hard/soft/firm/wet)ware is pretty much all
| around bad with very few redeeming qualities these days. You
| can almost feel the contempt for the user built right into
| the design from marketing all the way to implementation.
| owenfar wrote:
| Not 100% correct, but ok, you can say that as it stands.
|
| If you inspect the IndexedDB when logged in, you can see that
| everything is stored locally already. Offline mode was planned
| from the very beginning. It will and can already work offline
| if I spare a couple of days on it. But I didn't see it as a
| priority right now.
| permanent wrote:
| Please do spare a couple of days on it. I think noone would
| really believe it until seeing it :)
| AyyEye wrote:
| I'm just being snarky. Props for making something more
| polished than anything I've ever made.
| jejeyyy77 wrote:
| as a user, your first paragraph was just jibber jabber.
| smt88 wrote:
| VS Code's stack is approaching this level of
| abstraction/translation/insanity, but it's still performant and
| useful.
| Topfi wrote:
| This does remind me a bit of a personal knowledge management
| solution that has (fairly) recently gone out of beta, AnyType
| [0], as that too was sometimes referred to as an "operating
| system for the new internet" and received similarly skeptical
| reception. Seen them refine the concept into a more rounded
| project, since the closed alpha, that has been rather successful
| in the PKM space, though the end product never fully fit my
| personal use cases.
|
| From previous projects [1] (during which I merely made some minor
| modifications to a pre-existing FOSS project and took a look at
| the code of different "web-desktops" codebases), I get how much
| goes on under the hood of any desktop-like interface running in
| JS, so seeing one that also integrates handling the tabs of the
| "host browser" is immensely impressive, though of course I
| understand those highlighting the inefficiencies such an approach
| can bring.
|
| I very much appreciate the appearance, especially the subtle use
| of glass like transparency on window borders and the way third-
| parties like Soundcloud seem to be embedded.
|
| I will have to agree with some commenters that perhaps the
| privacy promise should be made more clear as to what the current
| state is. I understand that implementation takes time, but to
| build trust, being as transparent as possible from the start is
| invaluable.
|
| Furthermore, I see potential for this project, perhaps with a bit
| of tunnel vision due to me being immersed in the space, in the
| PKM field, as there, despite web-first applications being the
| norm, there is still a hole that I feel could be filled
| concerning making open tabs as part of an active project directly
| accessible and manageable, rather than needing to import web
| pages, then switch to the application, as is the case with most
| current solutions like MyMind [2]. Especially, as there must be
| people other than myself whose PKM does necessitate actively
| using roughly 100 tabs at a time...
|
| Additionally, if I may, perhaps the potential would have become
| more clear to some on here if you had linked the learn section
| [3] in your original post. It doesn't appear accessible on the
| homepage either, which is a shame, because that gave me a far
| better idea of the project in its entirety. Especially the search
| implementation showcased there has potential depending on the
| execution and should, in my opinion, be something you highlight
| on the homepage too.
|
| Lastly, I want to mention that you are doing a great job taking
| the occasionally a bit harsh, but generally fair reaction the HN
| crowd can have to showcases on the chin. That takes maturity and
| professionalism, especially on a passion project.
|
| [0] https://anytype.io/
|
| [1] https://ethical-ai.eu/
|
| [2] https://mymind.com/
|
| [3] https://savaos.com/learn
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-10-17 23:01 UTC)