[HN Gopher] Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curricul...
___________________________________________________________________
Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes
teenage lives
Author : joveian
Score : 117 points
Date : 2024-10-16 17:36 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| It seems like such a year could be either revelatory or totally
| miserable, depending what you got and what type of person you
| are. Just the thought of many of those activities brings me back
| to all my school year anxieties.
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| Sounds like a great idea.
|
| In England, I've seen education get consistently more rigid and
| inflexible over the years. All about tests, tests and more tests.
| Teachers leave the profession, children turn off. And as it
| consistently fails to produce better results, the answer is
| always to do more of what has failed.
|
| Bring something like this to England, please!
| soperj wrote:
| Sounds like Bill Gates has gotten a hold of your school system
| as well.
| sixo wrote:
| sounds like you have something to say but can't be bothered
| to say it
| snozolli wrote:
| I was curious, so I googled it. I'm guessing GP is talking
| about this:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-
| sheet/wp/2018/06/...
|
| _The aim was to create teacher evaluation systems that
| depended on student standardized test scores and
| observations by "peer evaluators." These systems, it was
| conjectured, could identify the teachers who were most
| effective in improving student academic performance._
|
| (it's not clear to me if this _created_ any standardized
| tests for students, or just depended on existing ones)
|
| Sounds like it ran from 2009-2015ish. If Bill Gates is
| going to be brought up, then I guess George W. Bush should
| be, too, with No Child Left Behind. AFAIK that's what
| kicked off the trend of standardized testing for students
| in the U.S.
| soperj wrote:
| Gates Foundation put an outsized amount of money into
| getting support for Common Core, standardized testing and
| merit pay for teachers.
|
| - https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/got-dough-how-
| billio...
| illwrks wrote:
| Is this not the same as a gap year?
|
| I'm Irish but unfortunately never bothered with TY. I live in
| the UK now so I've a limited understanding of TY and the 'Gap
| year'.
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| The article says it is like a gap year, but during secondary
| school.
|
| Clearly not the same as taking time off before university
| when you are already an adult though. Participation in some
| activities is required, so it's a bit more structured - and I
| don't think you can take off on your own to travel the world!
| talideon wrote:
| It's nothing like a gap year. It's just less academically
| focused.
| Macha wrote:
| A gap year is normally between the end of secondary school
| and starting college (so 18-20 or so). TY is between junior
| cycle (junior cert, or inter cert if you're older) and senior
| cycle (leaving cert). So 14-16 year olds (who couldn't
| legally take a gap year)
| aussiegreenie wrote:
| The Gap Year is a year-long deferral from university or
| college. Sometimes, it occurs directly after finishing High
| School, and other times, it occurs in the middle of your
| course.
|
| Many countries allow young people (under 30) to live and work
| in-country under a Working Holiday visa. Both are effectively
| Young People travelling (aka backpacking).
| wiredfool wrote:
| The other 5 years of schooling at that level is all about the
| tests.
| timthorn wrote:
| > it consistently fails to produce better results
|
| The performance of the English education system has improved
| markedly over the past couple of decades. At least, as measured
| by tests!
| dijksterhuis wrote:
| my physics A level teacher did something really interesting
| with us.
|
| we spent a whole class looking at an old O Level question
| from an exam.
|
| all of us, including the boffins in the class, were
| completely stumped by it.
|
| he explained it to us at the end, but it did solidify an
| appreciation in me that, at least 20ish years ago, we
| definitely had it easier than folks before us.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| > tests, tests and more tests
|
| Same in the USA. The old student question "will this be on the
| test?" is now also asked by teachers and administrators. If the
| answer is "no" they skip it.
| datadrivenangel wrote:
| I took a year off after high school in the US to work part time
| and take welding and accounting courses at the local community
| college. Great experience that convinced me that I did actually
| want to go to university.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that if I had taken auto shop or welding in
| high school (it was still offered, but I was "college-bound"
| and steered away from anything in that wing of the building) or
| in a "gap year" I would have ended up doing something in that
| field. I love making stuff and repairing stuff. I also was
| interested in computers and programming them, I think there's a
| lot of overlap there in terms of motivations.
| anotherhue wrote:
| 20 years ago it was considered a 'doss year' (waste/screw-around
| etc.), and the general perception was that it was for those that
| require a little more time in the oven developmentally before
| proceeding to the next stage. I was a child then so I don't know
| if that was true, but certainly the majority of people who took
| it were not academically inclined.
| Filligree wrote:
| Which seems fair enough. There's already a year difference
| between the youngest and oldest student in any given class; if
| you want your children to do well, make sure they're among the
| oldest.
|
| The problem is it might come too late to change their self-
| perception. A year is a lot of time when you're nine
| wiredfool wrote:
| TY is typically at 15ish.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| A year is still a lot then. You can do a lot in a year if
| you don't have to worry about earning a living and have the
| time to engage in things that are interesting.
| Macha wrote:
| It was both extremes when I did it 15 years ago. Those who
| needed it just to catch up on what they were supposed to have
| learned in junior cycle and those who wanted a bunch of extra
| curriculars for whatever reason. Note that admission to
| college/university in Ireland is not a motivator for extra
| curriculars - for school leavers the only things that matter
| are your overall grades, and for some courses, grades in
| specific subjects. (For foreign students, over 25s, those with
| special needs etc. there's a 10% or so allocation for an
| alternative process which is more subjective application based.
| But the 90% go through the purely grades based CAO)
|
| Think it varies a lot school to school and sometimes even year
| to year.
| talideon wrote:
| Not in my school: the vast majority who took it (this was the
| '90s, when it started) were the ones doing almost all honours.
|
| It heavily depends on the school, I would guess, however, but
| often those who need "more time in the oven" come just as much
| from the academically inclined side as from the less
| academically inclined side. For both, it allows them a broader
| window on who they might be.
| grej wrote:
| https://archive.is/duzFR
| wiredfool wrote:
| In Ireland -- with one kid in Junior Cert and one who did Junior
| Cert, then had an external Transition Year, then self studied for
| A levels, and one who's done home school/self study through GCSE
| and now doing A levels.
|
| It's an optional, definitely not universal thing. Not all schools
| offer it, and even then I get the impression that it's well less
| than half the students take the opportunity. The implementation
| is also highly school dependent, which is either totally expected
| or a complete surprise, given that the rest of the curriculum and
| tests are all national level standards.
|
| This article paints a far rosier picture than I've really seen
| from the local experiences, but that's probably as much the lack
| of drive at the school than anything else.
|
| My eldest's TY experience with us was great -- we took the
| opportunity to AirB&B around Europe, at least till Covid hit. But
| we were totally comfortable with dealing with the home schooling
| part of that for the three of them.
| Loughla wrote:
| What are A levels, by the way? I hear this a lot on British
| television but have no context.
| aj7 wrote:
| Folklore?
| jamesblonde wrote:
| Patrick Collison (Stripe) credits the Transition Year in Ireland
| for his computer interest
|
| " Ireland actually has this interesting thing called "transition
| year," this year between two major exams of high school or at
| least Ireland's high school equivalent.Transition year is a
| formally designated year that's optional, where you can go and
| pursue things that you might not otherwise naturally tend to
| pursue, and the school tends to be much more permissive of going
| and spending three months abroad or going and doing some work
| experience in this area or whatever the case may be. And so, in
| that year, I basically decided to spend as much of it as possible
| programming, and so I did that.""
|
| https://networkcapital.beehiiv.com/p/stripe-ceo-patrick-coll...
| petesergeant wrote:
| > What he really wanted to close was the cultural gap between
| rich and poor
|
| This sounds great!
|
| > Then there is the financial aspect of TY: some parents just
| can't afford it.
|
| oh for fuck's sake
| alephnerd wrote:
| Yep! Good extracurriculars are expensive.
|
| I remember taking part in Debate, MUN, XC, DECA, Wrestling,
| Quiz Bowl, Volunteering (NHS/CSF), and a bunch of Olympiads in
| HS and there was always a cost associated with participating
| (either a fee or the need to travel to the place hosting the
| EC).
|
| Unsurprisingly, this meant ECs would skew upper middle class
| and upper class. Sadly, these same ECs are also blockers for
| college admissions.
|
| I might get hate for this on HN, but this is why I support
| unweighted GPA, relative class ranking, and SAT/ACT for college
| admissions - sort of like what the UCs do. It's the least bad
| option out of the other options. Alternatively, going open
| entry with university admissions and then ramping up the
| difficulty with weedout classes is a good option as well.
| sodality2 wrote:
| Open entry would change a lot of things - lots of schools and
| rankings use drop out rate as a proxy for how useful
| attending there is, because of the assumption that if the
| dropout rate is higher, there's a worse education. It would
| at least upend the old saying about the hardest part about
| some colleges is getting in.
|
| I agree with the SAT/ACT part - they pushed "holistic review"
| during Covid but ultimately SAT prep is way lower barrier
| (Khan Academy) than gobs of ECs.
| heisenzombie wrote:
| Open admission is an interesting way to do things. I spent
| a bit of time in Belgium where the main universities will
| accept anyone who has a high-school level education. The
| first year dropout rate can be 70% in some courses. This
| system seemed to be very well loved by Belgians.
|
| https://www.oecd-
| ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2010-...
|
| Notably the US has the lowest dropout rate, so obviously
| they are pre-filtering students hard. That necessarily
| means that there are lots of people who /could/ have
| succeeded but were excluded at the admissions stage. The
| degree to which that's the right choice probably depends on
| whether you think doing a year of university and then
| leaving is a huge waste, a horrible failure, or a
| worthwhile experiment.
|
| (The unique economics of US universities obviously interact
| with this calculus in pretty major ways.)
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| unweighted GPA, relative class ranking, and SAT/ACT for
| college admissions - sort of like what the UCs do
|
| UC admissions decisions don't use SAT or ACT scores.
|
| Relative class ranking is a poor measure for students who
| gained entry (by merit) to a selective high school.
|
| Like if you do well in middle school and get into Lowell by
| the skin of your teeth, should you be penalized for being in
| the bottom 10%?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > UC admissions decisions don't use SAT or ACT scores.
|
| Ope. I forgot that changed after COVID.
|
| Pre-COVID SAT/ACT was required.
|
| > Like if you do well in middle school and get into Lowell
| by the skin of your teeth, should you be penalized for
| being in the bottom 10%?
|
| Someone is always going to be penalized no matter what.
| Most schools in California as well as nationally are not
| specialized or gatekept via entrance exams like Lowell was.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Most schools in California as well as nationally are not
| specialized or gatekept via entrance exams like Lowell
| was.
|
| Right, but 'school' is not the relevant unit. 'Student'
| is the relevant unit.
|
| Imagine the top 10% of middle school students in SF go to
| Lowell. Half of those will be in the bottom half of the
| graduating class.
|
| So 5% of students in SF (half of the best 10%) might not
| get into their UC of choice, just because they managed to
| get into Lowell.
|
| That's a lot of students' futures we're talking about.
| Why penalize half of the best students in SF?
| sollewitt wrote:
| In TY in 1998 I:
|
| worked at an architect's, an archeologist's, a hospital, an
| epidemiological research institute where I got to use _my own
| computer_ all day - decided I needed to work with computers, got
| a summer job there.
|
| earned the President's Award medal
|
| had one class where we stripped an engine over the term
|
| got my first aid certificate
|
| learned how to develop film
|
| took night classes touch typing (on an electric typewriter)
|
| took part in the Irish language school music competition
|
| took German
|
| was in a play
|
| got an award at the Young Scientist
|
| I really developed as a person. I hadn't ever really stopped to
| think what my life would be like without that development but I
| suspect it was very beneficial. It certainly wasn't a "doss" -
| and it started to grow a self determination muscle - find your
| own work experience, find projects you want to try etc.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| I often mention to people that graduate research helped me
| mature for this same reason. Prior to grad school, I just
| followed the strict well-defined path modern schooling tends to
| have - spend most time studying, very limited investment in
| hobbies and out-of-school friendships, get good grades, focus
| only on moving to the next year. My grades were great, but it
| left me as an underdeveloped anxious mess of a person who was
| incapable of being independent.
|
| Having a few years where I had to do things mostly on my own
| while still being somewhat 'sheltered' (because a research
| advisor doesn't have time to babysit, but also won't exploit
| you the way an employer can) helped me a lot to become my own
| person and to stop having panic attacks over trivial decisions.
| At a younger age, the same effect could've been achieved with
| one year.
|
| Plus, while everyone used to act like missing a year of ~high
| school would be a permanent blemish on a career, having gone
| through all this education, I feel that high school was the
| least consequential part of it. It could easily be replaced
| with a year of professional 'exploration' with no loss.
| Especially nowadays, where undergraduate degrees are very
| common (high school grades can already be entirely forgotten
| after obtaining a degree), and undergrad programs spend much of
| the first year redoing a lot of high school material to bring
| everyone up to the same level.
|
| As a result, when I have children of my own, I plan to
| emphasize this sort of exploration a lot more.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > but also won't exploit you the way an employer can
|
| Eh, my experience is the opposite. A _lot_ more exploitation
| in grad school than in industry. It 's a lot easier to change
| jobs than change professors/universities.
|
| I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal interventions
| where other professors or the department had to force an
| advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted to keep
| milking them for more papers).
|
| And then when you do graduate, forget a career in research if
| you can't get recommendation letters from him.
|
| But otherwise, I agree. A ton of benefits if you go to
| graduate school and don't have an abusive advisor.
|
| (I also took a year off after high school. Never understood
| why everyone said I was making a big mistake...).
| dotnet00 wrote:
| >Eh, my experience is the opposite. A lot more exploitation
| in grad school than in industry. It's a lot easier to
| change jobs than change professors/universities.
|
| >I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal
| interventions where other professors or the department had
| to force an advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted
| to keep milking them for more papers).
|
| That's kind of what I mean though. In grad school other
| professors you've worked with might still keep an eye out
| for you. Under an exploitative employer, the way I was
| previously, I wouldn't know any better, I had no sense for
| the value of my time/work and I used to panic about having
| to send simple emails to people, quitting a job used to
| sound equivalent to suicide.
|
| For me there's also the factor that as an international
| student, it's a lot easier for employers to exploit me than
| a school.
|
| Edit: Although, come to think of it, I do know of other
| departments at my uni where even other professors can't be
| relied on to help in such cases. So I guess you're right.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Under an exploitative employer, the way I was
| previously, I wouldn't know any better, I had no sense
| for the value of my time/work and I used to panic about
| having to send simple emails to people, quitting a job
| used to sound equivalent to suicide.
|
| Seems the lessons you learned as a grad student are the
| lessons I learned as an employee :-)
|
| My first job was exploitative. I eventually gave them the
| middle finger and left. Everyone told me I was crazy:
| "All jobs are like this. You have to suck it up"
|
| Eh, no. None of my jobs since then have been that bad.
| Half of them I actually _enjoyed_.
|
| This is very relevant: https://xkcd.com/1768/
| jan_Inkepa wrote:
| School for me (in Ireland) was more or less a race to get out
| of school (+ concomitant bullying) and into university to study
| what I was interested in (maths - at that point I wasn't able
| to advance any further on my own and there was nobody who could
| help/guide me further where I lived) - the idea of adding a
| year on felt like it would be a waste. In retrospect, yeah I
| think I made a good call. Happy to see other people getting
| benefit from it though.
| Eumenes wrote:
| My child is too young for school but my partner and I expect to
| homeschool. We've talked about gap years in the childs early/mid
| teens for travel/backpacking/nature excursions. I wish fellowship
| and apprentice work was more commonplace in the younger years
| too. Get out of the classroom and experience the real world.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| How do you plan on your child building out their social skills?
| Surely a couple of playdates a week with a few other kids isn't
| going to cut it.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| We homeschooled. When we worried about our kids'
| socialization, we yanked them into the bathroom and beat them
| up for their lunch money.
|
| I'm kidding, but... you want _school_ to build your kids '
| social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in
| schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult
| world, which is almost completely unlike school.
|
| Yeah, homeschooling _can_ be done where the kids are isolated
| and never interact with anyone outside the family. It doesn
| 't have to be, though.
| squigz wrote:
| > I'm kidding, but... you want school to build your kids'
| social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in
| schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult
| world, which is almost completely unlike school.
|
| I mean... yes, it seems reasonable to learn social skills
| from a school setting? Interacting with other people, some
| of whom dislike/disagree with each other, interacting with
| other adults, etc. This seems like a reasonable step toward
| what you describe as 'the adult world' - which, yes, is
| rather different from school, but that seems a good thing;
| throwing a child into 'the adult world' without preparation
| would be crazy, right?
|
| (I'm not trying to deny that one can learn the necessary
| social skills while being homeschooled, just disagree with
| the implication that school is not also a good place to
| develop them)
| Eumenes wrote:
| "Children learn what they live. Put kids in a class and
| they will live out their lives in an invisible cage,
| isolated from their chance at community; interrupt kids
| with bells and horns all the time and they will learn
| that nothing is important or worth finishing; ridicule
| them and they will retreat from human association; shame
| them and they will find a hundred ways to get even. The
| habits taught in large-scale organizations are deadly."
| -- John Taylor Gatto
| squigz wrote:
| > cage > isolation > interruptions > ridicule > shame
|
| I wonder if this person's view on schools is at all
| biased.
| Eumenes wrote:
| I'd say someone who taught in NYC public schools for 30
| years and won teacher of the year award is a good
| resource to learn from?
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto
| squigz wrote:
| So biased toward American public education, in New York
| City of all places.
|
| For what it's worth, I look back on my time in school
| with relative fondness. Certainly I don't agree with
| anything like it 'being a cage' or feeling isolated from
| other people (????)
| yongjik wrote:
| And put those children in an invisible cage with two
| adults who will tell them when to get up, what to wear,
| what to eat, what to read, and when to go to bed, and
| these kids will learn...... what?
|
| I think homeschooling _could_ work for some combinations
| of parents and kids, but so many discussion sounds like
| "Of course it's going to work for my kids because I'm
| different!"
| BeetleB wrote:
| > And put those children in an invisible cage with two
| adults who will tell them when to get up, what to wear,
| what to eat, what to read, and when to go to bed, and
| these kids will learn...... what?
|
| Sounds like a typical day for a regular school kid. Most
| school kids up to a certain age need a parent to wake
| them up, and don't get to pick their clothes or their
| food. And get shepherded into the bed.
|
| Not sure what any of this has to do with homeschooling.
| It's just basic life.
|
| In fact, from the parents I know who home school, the
| kids actually have more freedoms than school kids do.
| Their work is tailored to their skill level, so no BS
| tedious homework. As long as the parents have time, the
| schedule is flexible as well. If your kid performs better
| at noon - great! Start then.
| Eumenes wrote:
| Plenty of family/friends nearby with young families. I'm in a
| rural area with a tradition of homeschooling so there's
| weekly/biweekly events/classes. Not really worried about the
| socialization. Over socializing can be bad too.
| BeetleB wrote:
| From what I've seen, surely going to school doesn't cut it
| either :-)
|
| Let's not cherry pick. Plenty of people have adverse social
| outcomes due to school.
| cmcconomy wrote:
| In Quebec you find a similar program; elementary school is K-6,
| and high school is 7-11. Following this you can optionally attend
| an interstitial educational system called "CEGEP".
|
| It's government funded and costs next to nothing.
|
| CEGEP has two streams, pre-university or professional. For the
| latter, you learn skills like aircraft mechanics. For the former,
| you pick a stream that bulks up what would normally be first-year
| university courses like calculus, biology etc for a science
| stream.
|
| However, you are required to take approx 15-20% of your courses
| in an "opposite" stream to force you to get acquainted with other
| alternatives before you commit to university. In addition, the
| structure is much like university (you pick your classes &
| schedule, class sizes are increased compared to HS, your
| responsibility is increased) which is a good transition for
| university if that's where you're headed.
|
| I think it's a wonderful system and I wish it was more
| widespread.
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| .
| Hello71 wrote:
| I googled "quebec educational attainment" and found
| https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/university-
| gradu..., which says that "Quebec has the highest proportion
| of people aged 25 to 64 with any postsecondary certificate,
| diploma or degree (71.2%).". According to
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/467078/median-annual-
| fam..., Quebec's median annual family income in 2021 was
| 96,910, almost the same as the median 98,390. The top
| "provinces" are Northwest Territories and Yukon, whose ways
| of doing things, for better or worse, cannot be easily copied
| to other provinces.
| hluska wrote:
| Stats Canada data disagrees with this. Do you have a source?
| tadhgpearson wrote:
| It works on the other end of the spectrum too. Much of my class
| just wanted to leave school at 16 to work on the family farm. TY
| gave them practical experience of running a business, stripping
| an engine, how to use an manage credit etc. before they went out
| in the world.
| asdasdsddd wrote:
| I think a lot of the mental illness for young boys is that the
| education ladder deprives them of responsibility until way past
| maturity.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, why do you think that's a problem for boys,
| in particular?
| justonenote wrote:
| can't answer for GP but most likely because he is male
| himself and so speaking to what he knows.
|
| Your question sounds like you are baiting, like you are
| pretending to be so naive that you are not aware that men and
| women face different expectations and circumstances growing
| up, and moreso there is something wrong with expressing
| concern for boys without also including girls.
|
| Maybe, hopefully, I'm reading you wrong.
| TRiG_Ireland wrote:
| TY was good to me, but I think it could have been better. As the
| article says, each school does it differently. We did a mini
| company, where we created knick knacks and tried to sell them.
| But the entire class of 30 students was one company, which was
| therefore quite badly organised. I remember the teachers saying
| that they wouldn't do it that way in future years. There was also
| orienteering.
|
| And we still did some academic classes. Maths, anyway. And I
| think some others.
|
| In my school, most of the kids didn't do TY, so there was just
| one class in TY, which meant that the maths, in particular, was
| fairly basic: there weren't enough of us for streaming. And
| jumping back into higher level maths in Fifth Year was, frankly,
| a bit of a shock to the system.
| kayo_20211030 wrote:
| The Cillian Murphy reference seems off. He might have been too
| old when it was mandated in 1994, even though it was available
| earlier. Anyone know for sure?
| talideon wrote:
| I was in one of the first years that did transition year, and it
| was almost nothing but good for me. It got me much more out of my
| shell and I was able to do subjects I wouldn't have been able to
| do otherwise. Art, in particular, thought there weren't enough
| subsequently in the senior cycle for me to continue with it,
| sadly. My work placements were fun in different ways: I worked in
| a electronics repair shop and learned to solder and basic
| electronics (I already had a healthy respect for high voltage),
| worked with some architects, and also in a music studio and got
| an understanding of music production.
|
| I've heard reasons for not doing it, but it's so good for
| broadening the horizons of who you think you are that almost all
| of those reasons are almost moot.
| colmmacc wrote:
| I did transition year in 1997, and I think we were only the
| second class to do it in my school. We took another European
| language for a year, and I did Art, Home Economics, Metalwork,
| and Woodworking classes that had no aptitude for and never
| would have picked for my leaving cert years. They were great
| and I learned skills that I still use.
|
| For my work placement, I worked in a folk instrument store and
| learned a lot about acoustic instruments, but also the basics
| of showing up on time, getting things done, and more. It was
| invaluable. The reduced pressure meant I could also work at the
| local McDonald's, and the income from 6 months of shift-work
| there made a big difference for me and my family. It was a
| start of some modest savings that allowed me to even consider
| going to college later (I still had to work through college,
| but at least it was doable).
|
| Transition Year, the introduction of Free Third Level
| Education, and the blinded CAO application process for
| universities were all game changers for me. I grew up in
| Ballyfermot, a working class part of Dublin, and when I went to
| college I found out there was still only a tiny handful of
| people from there who'd had that opportunity. Still so
| thankful.
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