[HN Gopher] MacOS sometimes leaks traffic after system updates
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MacOS sometimes leaks traffic after system updates
Author : dulvui
Score : 364 points
Date : 2024-10-16 08:37 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mullvad.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (mullvad.net)
| mgoetzke wrote:
| it also leaks the audio of tabs before logging in.
|
| Even though I had disabled all 'restore' applications features,
| macos sometimes decides to 'start' browsers BEFORE logging in
| after a restart AND those start auto-playing audio from whatever
| was paused before the reboot (or many days before).
|
| Since then I went rather deep disabling that feature, but I never
| trusted it.
| Affric wrote:
| I can't think of anything I want less from a laptop than it
| playing sound when I open it... and yet apple bring it to me as
| though it's a feature.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| There are exactly zero situations where I would want my
| laptop be anything except fully muted when I open it.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Your applications should catch the signal and pause.
| Safari, Apple Music and Spotify handle this well. Firefox
| needs a bugfix.
| Faaak wrote:
| Yet they still make a sound when powered on or resuming
| sleep (and curiously, when plugged into my usb-c monitor,
| keeps going to sleep and turning back on (with a nice
| sound) forever. No other laptop win or Linux does that)
| bayindirh wrote:
| I actually tested my laptop before writing that comment.
| My laptop(s) make no sound even if I close the lid with
| playing audio (sans Firefox, as I said).
|
| I didn't test sleep/wake consciously while I docked my
| laptops, but I don't remember they start making sounds
| when they should be silent. Maybe you're seeing PowerNap
| cycles, but mine is not doing any noise in PowerNap,
| either.
|
| Need to test with leaving Firefox playing something and
| see what it does.
|
| ...all in all, interesting sentiments. I'm using these
| things for ~15 years at this point, and while they did
| funny things in the past, this was not one of them.
| Faaak wrote:
| you're lucky :-)
| andrepd wrote:
| Configurability is also out of fashion nowadays, so you'll
| get that behaviour and enjoy it.
| latexr wrote:
| That's an unfair characterisation. It's just restoring
| windows, some of which happen to be browser windows, which
| then load a website with auto-playing video or audio that
| (unsurprisingly) starts playing. No one is selling it as a
| feature to "play sound when waking up from sleep". I bet that
| if you configured the browser to never auto-play, this
| wouldn't happen.
|
| To clarify, because commenters seem to be misunderstanding my
| point: I'm not defending the functionality, I think it's
| wrong. My sole quarrel is with the characterisation that
| Apple is selling it as a feature, when they're not. Let's not
| ascribe wrong (or at best unknown) motivations to behaviours,
| as that makes is less likely they will be fixed.
| chx wrote:
| I do not think the user particularly cares whether it was
| an intentional feature or an unfortunate byproduct of
| features and bugs when they open a laptop in a classroom or
| a meeting and it starts blaring the music they listened to
| before closing it.
| Jerrrrrrry wrote:
| Some areas of expertise require so much work, it nearly
| prevents the student from learning to appreciate the
| intent, the craft, itself.
|
| It's like being literally unable to dog
|
| Opening a laptop, even if the last activity was blaring
| obnoxious carnival music, should _allow_, not _demand_
| the user to resume their last function - which was
| explicitly to _pause_ the laptop, by closing the lid.
|
| If I close the lid, I am done with the computer and
| video; it is obvious that I am done right now - the
| OS/browser would be alerted of LidDown, and I would
| expect the OS to tell the browser to Pause (via some new
| javascript media API that I am sure exists), pagefile ram
| if possible/needed, and dump all console.logs to a temp
| directory, in case restarting from hibernation goes awry.
|
| If I open the lid, I am attempting to use the computer.
| The previous quest can be pertinent or moot; but it would
| be oddly assumptive (against the ethos of general
| computing) to _automagically_ resume (especially a
| paused) playback just from first button press - at least
| give me the option to explore, format, or rename the
| thing.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| You're asking the OSes to actually implement proper
| session management and centralized leak controls?
|
| It has never happened before...
| Jerrrrrrry wrote:
| The thread shouldn't pause with AudioContext frozen in an
| "active" status. The thread unpauses, the AudioContext
| resumes before the next frame (whever thatll be) comes to
| remember to pause it.
|
| Windows 7 with Youtube can figure out - even with
| hibernation breaking audio/bluetooth on windows - then
| surely the most expensive company and OS 15 years later
| has made an inkling of progress (if that was ever their
| intention)
| eptcyka wrote:
| Does it matter if the end result is that the browser plays
| audio before you've authenticated your user session?
| latexr wrote:
| The characterisation matters, yes. Because when you
| ascribe wrong motivations out of perceived spite, it
| makes it less likely the people who can fix it want to do
| so.
|
| I'm not defending the bug, I'm replying to the post below
| it.
| mgoetzke wrote:
| To clarify it restores windows AFTER a reboot, BEFORE i
| login.
|
| What RIGHT does it have to create processes with a user
| BEFORE I authenticate to the machine ?
| latexr wrote:
| Yes, I understand, I have encountered that as well and I
| agree it shouldn't happen.
|
| My only quarrel is with the other user implying Apple is
| selling this as a feature. I have my fair share of
| criticism of Apple and other tech companies, but let's
| please not let blind hate take over and dilute arguments.
| dspillett wrote:
| No one is selling it as a feature, no, but I would still
| consider it an OS level bug, and a security one at that.
| Focusing on the browser is a step away from the point: if
| I'm not signed in, I don't want sound playing from any
| app0.
|
| I've had Windows do something similar, a media player
| deciding to unpause when coming up from hibernate (this was
| before Windows seemingly broke hibernate) and for some
| reason being at full volume, and it was a fair few seconds
| before I was able to login, get to that app, and hit pause
| again. It didn't leak anything sensitive (Hey everyone,
| this guy watches Stargate!) but it made me "that guy we all
| hate" on the train... Again it is the app that is
| responsible for making the sound, but I think at that point
| the OS shouldn't let it.
|
| <glasses tint="rose">I miss the times when laptops had
| physical volume sliders...</galsses>
|
| To me this has the feeling of making a mountain out of a
| molehill, but I don't think there is any denying that the
| molehill itself exists and to others it might be more than
| the very minor irritation it could be to me.
|
| _> I bet that if you configured the browser to never auto-
| play, this wouldn't happen._
|
| I bet that no matter how tightly you try to control that,
| some advertiser will find a way to override it to make
| sound play, and sods law says that will happen when you
| most want your waking laptop to be quiet. Blocking audio
| while not signed in at the OS level is a safer gate.
|
| ----
|
| [0] Actually, there is an exception there: if the machine
| has locked due to input inactivity, I want audio I'm
| listening to continue and notification pips to come
| through. There is a distinction between OS restarting (from
| [re]boot, wake, etc.) and local console not logged in due
| to input timeout, in how I'd prefer things to behave.
| latexr wrote:
| > No one is selling it as a feature, no
|
| That's all I'm saying.
|
| > but I would still consider it an OS level bug
|
| I agree.
| bayindirh wrote:
| macOS sends a "pause" signal to all players when it sleeps,
| and any application which can handle that won't be playing
| any audio when the system wakes up. So if your audio
| continues the moment you open the lid, please file a bug
| report for that application.
| Kbelicius wrote:
| GP wrote nothing about sleep.
| bayindirh wrote:
| macOS sleeps the moment you close the lid, and wakes the
| moment you raise it a little. It's instantaneous, esp.
| ARM powered ones.
| Kbelicius wrote:
| Sorry, mistook which post you were replying to.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Nah, no problems. Things happen. Have a nice day :)
| ta1243 wrote:
| I've seen many situations where macos laptops with a
| closed lid continue to perform network tasks
| bayindirh wrote:
| That's PowerNap. Depending on your settings, your Mac
| wakes up briefly to check e-mails, updates and sleeps
| again. Normally it happens only during charging, but you
| can enable on battery power or disable it completely.
|
| Bluetooth and wireless radios stay on for a longer while
| because to keep everything connected if you are moving
| from room to room at home or at work, also it's made
| possible because all radios are higher end models with
| their independent processors.
| 30714 wrote:
| ``` #/bin/sh osascript -e 'set volume 0' ```
|
| and SleepWatcher by bernard-baehr.de
| threeseed wrote:
| I have never heard of anyone with this issue.
|
| The only explanation is that you restarted whilst having the
| "Open All Previous Application" checkbox enabled. And yes it
| will launch processes after you have logged in but before the
| Desktop is shown.
|
| Either that you or you have some launch daemon that is opening
| a browser.
| olyjohn wrote:
| I've had similar experiences with MacOS. I uncheck that
| goddamn box all the time and still it relaunches previously
| opened applications half the time. If my application or
| computer crashes, I don't want the crashy application to open
| up at startup again. MacOS isn't perfect.
| lupusreal wrote:
| OSX is particularly lousy with remembering user preferences
| and configuration. I quit using it after I grew sick of
| raging at it forgetting what applications want different
| files to open with. I've never had this sort of problem on
| Linux.
| jwells89 wrote:
| In my experience, when filetype associations change under
| macOS it's because some app I've used recently has made
| those changes without asking me.
|
| I know some people are tired of all the prompts but I
| don't think apps should be able to change those
| associations without first prompting the user.
| eru wrote:
| I also have this issue from time to time.
|
| > The only explanation is that [...]
|
| Please show some more imagination.
| threeseed wrote:
| Maybe you should use your imagination and read the second
| part of what I wrote.
|
| Which is that it could be a launch daemon. It's very common
| for third party apps to use their imagination and do dumb
| things on startup.
| f1shy wrote:
| I had this issue, and something similar in my old iPhone. I'm
| sure there are other explanations, because yours is not it.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I'm very confident that it's either this or the restore-
| after-crash feature that OP is seeing. I don't think it's
| anything specific to Safari, because I have never seen Safari
| opened before login when it's not my default browser.
|
| That said, there should probably be a checkbox in system
| settings to disable login "prewarming".
| mgoetzke wrote:
| I actually used Chrome and Edge. Both show that problem.
| But the main issue is not those browser autoplaying audio
| and video on "restore", even though it is an issue, its the
| OS thinking its OK to load apps before a user authenticated
| itself after boot
| Jerrrrrrry wrote:
| They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and ready
| for their demanders of instant gratification.
|
| In the long run, they barter this goodwill for "Safari is shit"
| credit until they and Google force the internet until a
| browser-turned App-Play-Store war.
|
| Both companies win, and can blame the other company - all while
| incentivising anti-competition behavior and benefiting from
| their own organizational, yet altruistic, self-interests
| happening to coincidentally collude in similar, yet distinctly
| more complicated cases of creating monopolies spanning multiple
| domains.
|
| The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and
| vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps.
|
| your mobile devices are essentially tracking devices you are
| addicted to, and the government is too interested in these
| shiny grandiose things and their use in facilitating government
| functions without any real consequence, they fail to see the
| systematic risks that they themselves have allowed to
| proliferate by not enforcing stricter laws for systematically -
| exploitable intersections of law, technology, and business.
| lukan wrote:
| "they fail to see the systematic risks"
|
| Or they also fail at providing a solution. Would you prefer
| diletantic government intervention in this area instead?
| phoe-krk wrote:
| The differences between governments and megacorps are
| dwindling and the two are becoming much more alike one
| another. We already live in global technofeudalism.
| eru wrote:
| Alas, no. By and large, governments are still vastly less
| competent than multinational corporations. MNCs also
| don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
| phoe-krk wrote:
| Governments are adopting the international outreach of
| megacorps.
|
| Megacorps are adopting the level of competence of
| governments.
|
| I see no contradiction here.
| lccerina wrote:
| "MNC don't force you to pay taxes", well 30% fee on
| products bought, sorry "licensed", on their app stores
| seem like a tax to me
| fl0id wrote:
| this. also any profit margins sure are a "tax" in that
| comparison. Only you don't even get a public service for
| it, however bad it might be. For taxes, at least some of
| them are used for public services.
| lupusreal wrote:
| The less local the government, the less likely I am to
| see any material benifit from the taxes I pay. Local and
| state taxes fund roads and other infrastructure, public
| schools, social programs, etc. Federal taxes fund
| military adventurism, pure corrupt waste like SLS and
| worst of all ""aid"" for shitty foreign countries like
| Saudi Arabia and Israel so they can wage wars on their
| neighbors, for which America's international reputation
| suffers greatly.
| Jerrrrrrry wrote:
| >MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their
| products.
|
| yeah, because the only kid bigger, told them to knock it
| off, as to not hamper their own racket.
|
| If you think a mega-corp won't go AWOL and attempt a
| Banana Republic/Dutch East India Company again, but with
| more proxies, lawyers, SAM's, and corrupt officials to
| "YAS" them into integration, then you really haven't been
| paying attention to what globalization is really about.
|
| The US had to ask for money back from the oil barons.
|
| Bezos/Musk/Zuck/{untold billionaires} will have much
| better bargaining chips when they possess the monopoly on
| surveillance, money, and influence, and have proxy chairs
| at the U.N.
|
| And I bet those countries would be better run in every
| way.
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| I never got this sentiment. Corporations as viewed from
| the inside are wildly incompetent--and that's before you
| consider profit inefficiency. I suspect this would be a
| lot more obvious if it weren't for the last seventy years
| of intentionally hampering government from competing with
| the market players directly. Once a product hits
| enshittification it benefits everyone (but shareholders,
| who contribute nothing to society) to nationalize the
| production and provide it at zero margin.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| You are "forced to pay taxes" to have schools and roads
| and rescue services and law and everything else that
| makes the United States still a mostly habitable place to
| live.
|
| Corporations do not force you to pay taxes YET. When the
| corporations get in total control and you cannot even
| vote just wait to see what a slave you are.
| Fluorescence wrote:
| > MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their
| products.
|
| MNCs are like local governments levying property taxes.
|
| e.g. you need a phone much like you have to live
| somewhere. Your "Tech Government" is determined by a
| highly constrained choice like your local civil
| government is determined by your zip code. Maybe you can
| move at great disruption and cost but it's only to the
| jurisdiction of another government and some variation of
| autocratic laws and taxes.
|
| However, you have no vote and there is no pretence at
| serving your interests. You are not a citizen but cattle
| to be farmed... just maximal exploitation to please the
| mighty Mammon.
| acdha wrote:
| > By and large, governments are still vastly less
| competent than multinational corporations
|
| Is this something you know firsthand or something you
| think you know because a huge amount of money has gone
| into spreading that message for political purposes?
| Anyone who's worked for or with a multi-national knows
| that they're hardly as efficient as the marketing would
| have you believe, and anyone who's looked at libertarian
| media knows that it's almost entirely funded by rich
| people seeking tax & regulatory reductions, banking on
| you confusing their interests with your own.
| RunSet wrote:
| Privatize the fire department and you'll soon see just
| how shrewd they become.
| acdha wrote:
| As a recovering libertarian, I remember how the idea of
| making all roads tolled to pay for maintenance was an
| instant conversation killer.
| bookaway wrote:
| > governments are still vastly less competent than
| multinational corporations.
|
| Speaking of competence devoid of context misses the
| point. They are resembling each other greatly in the
| sense of misaligned incentives with their "users", which
| supersedes run-of-the-mill competence in terms of
| importance in this context. I'm not going to give points
| to some moron who is swimming competently in the wrong
| direction.
|
| > MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their
| products.
|
| An oddly naive comment given all that has been written
| about how Amazon operates, to give one example.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> MNCs also don 't force you to pay taxes_
|
| So wrong. Every dollar that $FOO_COMPANY shovels to
| Google and Apple to spend on advertising is a dollar that
| you, the consumer, end up footing the bill for; a dollar
| that _does not go towards improving the product you
| receive in any way whatsoever_.
|
| The advertising industry itself is a tax on the price of
| everything.
| m3047 wrote:
| MNCs get governments to force you to buy their products.
| I've dealt with governments where the only way to send or
| receive docs was MS Word. Sometimes saving in MS Word
| format works (LibreOffice), sometimes not.
| Jerrrrrrry wrote:
| >"they fail to see the systematic risks" Or they also
| fail at providing a solution.
|
| Apple has no incentive to improve Safari. "It just works"
| is what their cultists paid to have the honor to parrot,
| and they enjoy the majority of web market share of people
| with actual wages and disposable income. That's why the
| sell culture, not their people's data (directly, yet).
|
| Since it's not "Safari" that's broken (since iPhones cost a
| lot of money, they cant break), the users will lie blame at
| the fault of the web developers, since they had gotten cozy
| within the comfortable, flexible, expected behaviors of
| Chrome, having enjoyed a hiatus from IE11 EOL pollyfills
| and jquery.
|
| Apple then made it easier to roll out an app than to
| grapple with the pitfalls, nuances, foot-guns, and gabbling
| documentation that Safari has carefully mal-compiled to
| shepherd both developers and their users into the Walled
| Garden.
|
| It's just the browser wars, but with higher stakes. And
| Microsoft already won.
| acdha wrote:
| If you're referring to people as "cultists", consider
| that your point might not be as strong as you think. If
| you have a non-emotional argument about a browser, try
| making it with logic and data rather than emotion. For
| example, demonstrate awareness of where the browsers rank
| on the features which web developers really need
| (Google's devrel team likes to highlight PWA features
| almost nobody uses even on Chrome) and show why the
| "walled garden" metaphor applies more to a niche browser
| than the dominant one by a large margin.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > Would you prefer diletantic government intervention in
| this area instead
|
| what kind of answer is that exactly?
|
| I would much prefer they fix the issue, yes, the stuff I'm
| using is provided by Apple and it's been paid off in full,
| I don't know what made people believe that it's ok if
| software sucks...
|
| If a train company causes an accident they are considered
| liable if a software company leaks my data they should be
| considered liable, it's as simple as that, no need for this
| anti government stands that frankly make adults look like
| angry teenagers with a bad bladder
| lukan wrote:
| The complaint was the governemnt does nothing, because
| they lack a clear solution, to the non trivial problem of
| todays megacorps and their Power since they control our
| gadgets. Do you happen to have a concrete solution?
| Propelloni wrote:
| > Would you prefer diletantic government intervention in
| this area instead?
|
| No, I would like a competent government intervention. Those
| happen, even if some would rather believe otherwise.
| lukan wrote:
| How would that look like, in this concrete example of add
| controlled smartphones?
| gruez wrote:
| >They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and
| ready for their demanders of instant gratification.
|
| Having short startup times is bad now? ...because of "instant
| gratification"? The rest of your rant might make sense in the
| broader context of what big tech is doing, but bringing it up
| in this thread and implying that it's part of a conspiracy
| where "The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and
| vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps" is
| unhinged.
| fsflover wrote:
| > your mobile devices are essentially tracking devices you
| are addicted to
|
| Speak for yourself. Sent from my Librem 5.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Sent from my Nokia 3310
| cryptoz wrote:
| How is this possible? I wouldn't have thought that it could
| open your applications without you logging in? How does it know
| who you are? How does it know which applications to open? If
| you're not logged in yet, is is just logging in for you
| automatically but not showing you?
|
| Seems like a huge security bug. This isn't being exploited?
| Wild stuff.
|
| Reminds me of when you could hear a FaceTime call coming
| through but if you chose not to answer it, no worries! Your
| iPhone will turn on your camera anyway! And send your video to
| the calling party!
| delfinom wrote:
| Vast majority of all laptop and even phone usage is single
| user. They could literally be doing
|
| if macbook_has_only_one_account():
|
| preloadapps()
| cryptoz wrote:
| But how? - surely they don't store the passwords in plain
| text locally? Does the OS have a function to log in a user
| while bypassing their credentials? I would have assumed
| that it is impossible for the OS to preloadapps() when it
| doesn't have access to the user's apps in the first place.
|
| But apparently it does! _shrug_
|
| So why tell the user that they need to log in first? If
| they are the only user account on the system and the OS can
| access the user's files and apps without logging in, why
| have the user event set a password in the first place? It
| seems like a fake login, a false sense of security. And a
| massive security issue. If the user can just open the lid
| and that means that code is now running _under their own
| account_ but they have not authorized a log in, that 's
| just dangerous.
| radicality wrote:
| Damn, how is that possible? I imagine you have FileVault
| enabled, and if so this sounds like some security bypass?
|
| I was under the impression that until you provide the password
| after a reboot, the system should know nothing about you as all
| user data should be encrypted, so it should not know what apps
| you had open before reboot let alone start playing sound.
| gruez wrote:
| >Damn, how is that possible? I imagine you have FileVault
| enabled, and if so this sounds like some security bypass?
|
| If you're choosing "reboot" rather than "shut down",
| presumably you intend to continue using the machine, so it's
| reasonably safe to keep credentials around. AFAIK windows has
| the same feature.
| steve1977 wrote:
| > If you're choosing "reboot" rather than "shut down",
| presumably you intend to continue using the machine, so
| it's reasonably safe to keep credentials around.
|
| This is the last thing I would expect. Quite the contrary,
| when I reboot (rather than log out or sleep), I expect the
| machine to clear it's memory completely.
| pram wrote:
| After you type your FileVault password you are 'logged in'
|
| This is really about the checkbox on the reboot modal that
| says "reopen windows when logging back in." An OS update
| defaults to yes, for whatever reason.
| f1shy wrote:
| Somewhat loosely related, but I have something similar with the
| iPhone browser. Where opening the browser will shortly show the
| last page I had open (even I carefully closed it before closing
| the browser). Even if it never got me into trouble, I found
| that annoying as s. And could potentially make problems.
| m-s-y wrote:
| FWIW, what you're seeing is likely just the cached thumbnail
| that iOS creates for the app-switcher UI, not an interactive
| web session.
| pornel wrote:
| Yes, but still if you have somebody looking over your
| shoulder, it can leak whatever you've been looking at.
|
| There's a way to block that entirely for "secure' apps, but
| iOS could be smarter about this, and cache some stripped
| down view or expire that cache quicker.
| DavideNL wrote:
| This is also the case for FaceTime; The last image the
| camera captured will stay visible in the app switcher like
| forever... so other people who use your iPad / iPhone can
| see it.
| f1shy wrote:
| Yes. Something like that, but can reveal a lot of the site
| you were in.
| commandersaki wrote:
| What I don't understand is why browsers (in my case Brave)
| doesn't pause all playback after a restart?
| handsclean wrote:
| The first boot after a macOS system update has long been bugged
| out. It launches a bunch of apps you didn't even have open before
| updating, seems to be the 5-10 most recent apps you quit. Yes
| they were fully quit, yes I have the "resume" setting off. It
| also doesn't do a resume, it launches them, i.e. tells them to
| create new windows, and it launches them before it finishes
| mounting disks, resulting in every update being followed by all
| my most used apps appearing out of nowhere and telling me all my
| config and data is gone. It doesn't really matter, you just
| reboot again and you're good, it's just careless and makes the OS
| feel unstable. Maybe the firewall thing is unrelated, maybe it
| finally forces Apple to fix the bug, we'll see.
| galad87 wrote:
| It seems to launch all the apps you had open when you pressed
| the "Update" button, even if that was 30 minutes before the
| installation began.
| ahoka wrote:
| Ah, that is so annoying. It actually opened stuff from
| yesterday once.
| trissylegs wrote:
| > yes I have the "resume" setting off
|
| I'm not sure what this setting does. The amount of times mac
| will jsut reopen everything anyway is frustration. I go look up
| how to stop it and the answer is always "Turn off this setting
| you already have off".
| thisislife2 wrote:
| > In this scenario the macOS firewall does not seem to function
| correctly and is disregarding firewall rules ... Some examples of
| apps that do this are Apple's own apps and services since macOS
| 14.6, up until a recent 15.1 beta.
|
| This is not new - every time I update macOS, some of the system
| settings are changed to default including some in the firewall.
| And I have to painstakingly go through all of it and change it.
| Also, the few times I've reinstalled or updated macOS, I've
| always noticed that it takes longer for the installation if your
| system has access to the internet - so now I've made it a
| practice to switch of the router while installing or updating
| macOS or ios. (With all the AI bullshit being integrated
| everywhere in Windows, macOS and Android etc., I expect this kind
| of "offloading" of personal data, and downloading of data, to /
| from AI servers to keep increasing, especially during updates, to
| "prepare" for the new AI features in the newer OS updates. No
| internet means the installer is forced to skip it for later,
| saving you some valuable time, and hopefully you get to change
| the default setting before it starts up again. Whatever the
| claims of AI processing done on the Mac or iDevices itself, some
| "offloading" to their servers, will still happen, especially if
| the default settings - which you can change only after the OS is
| installed - also enables analytics and data collection.)
|
| (More here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418809 and on
| this thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26303946 ).
| hypeatei wrote:
| > I've made it a practice to switch of the router while
| installing or updating macOS or ios.
|
| Why are you still using those OSes? That seems like a lot of
| work for something you paid for.
| freehorse wrote:
| For me, because of the hardware.
| binary132 wrote:
| it's just not that much better or worth it
| kbolino wrote:
| It may not be worth it: the ridiculous upfront prices to
| get enough RAM and SSD space, and the lack of
| upgradeability of those two components, significantly
| undermine the value proposition of the Mac platform.
|
| But the laptops at least are definitely better quality.
| The touchpad, charger, screen, keyboard, case, speakers,
| etc. are all well above the Windows competition in terms
| of both build quality and durability. The commoditization
| of every component in a PC laptop has really sapped the
| life of that platform. No, actually, I don't want another
| shitty Synaptics touchpad with ancient features and buggy
| drivers. I really would like every key on my keyboard to
| still work consistently 2 years after I bought the
| computer. And no 1080p is not good enough (but hey at
| least we finally got away from 1366x768!).
|
| Some of the PC makers do seem to have caught on and you
| can get something comparably specced and competitively
| priced if you look hard and carefully. But it will still
| have some deficiencies compared to the MacBook that you
| can't shop your way around.
| thewebguyd wrote:
| > Some of the PC makers do seem to have caught on and you
| can get something comparably specced and competitively
| priced if you look hard and carefully. But it will still
| have some deficiencies compared to the MacBook that you
| can't shop your way around.
|
| This has kept me on Mac laptops as well. There's always
| some compromise made elsewhere, even on high end laptops.
| Usually it's the trackpad, or poor thermals making it
| unusable as a laptop or just super loud (comparing to the
| Apple Silicon line here, my intel MBPs were furnaces).
| Plus, if you want anything other than a 1080p screen you
| are pushing close to MBP prices anyway.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| >I really would like every key on my keyboard to still
| work consistently 2 years after I bought the computer.
|
| You say this as if Apple didn't spend 5 years selling
| keyboards that were nearly guaranteed to die after a
| years worth of usage in a slightly dusty environment.
|
| People love Apple hardware because they have a terrible
| memory for all the flawed hardware Apple always releases
| and pretends isn't flawed. There are significant design
| flaws that affect a significant portion of their
| customers that they just never acknowledge. For example,
| I only recently learned that my previous work macbook
| failed in the way it did because a specific short ribbon
| cable was made shorter for no discernible reason and so
| some revisions of the 2015 macbook pro just have
| indescribable screen corruption as a failure mode. Apple
| doesn't tell you that though, just send it in, let us
| charge you $1500, and replace half of the computer.
| kbolino wrote:
| I'm not excusing Apple, I'm shaming the competition.
| There's no justification for the PC laptops to be so bad.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| I still use a MacBook from 2015. That's hella longevity
| compared to other laptops I've owned. And the only thing
| better than Apple trackpads is the Thinkpad "nub".
|
| Too bad about the craptastic keyboards from 2016-2020
| though.
| freehorse wrote:
| "Better" is a relative term. Better in what, for which
| purpose?
|
| There is currently no fanless laptop that can run linux
| (at least macos is not windows, so good enough for me, I
| do have some standards) that can even remotely be
| compared to a macbook air. Or in general to meet the
| quitness of higher end macbooks except under heavy load,
| or the performance you get on the go. I am just tired of
| having a "jet engine" making constant noise in my room.
| We have been waiting for qualcomm snapdragons to catch
| up, maybe after a few more iterations they will stop
| being a disappointment, and then I may switch to a
| snapdragon (or amd or intel or whoever manages to get
| there) laptop with linux.
|
| This does not even include other aspects that macbooks
| are superior to whatever I have used in the past, eg
| their touchpads or speakers, which I discovered just when
| I switched.
| throw73484858 wrote:
| Because Linux is soo hard to use. You have to use supported
| hardware (like with any other OS), and once a year paste a
| few commands into terminal.
| bqmjjx0kac wrote:
| I love Linux. I've just been burned too many times to trust
| it on my primary laptop. This is a machine with a high
| availability requirement -- if I have a job interview, the
| camera had better work _right now_.
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| Never updating within several days of anything important
| works well in my experience.
|
| Although the specific hardware matters as well--an Intel
| Macbook's Facetime HD abomination with its out-of-tree
| drivers was a source of constant frustration; by
| contrast, the Framework's camera (the old one, not the
| one released recently) has been solid enough that I don't
| actually know what it is.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| I agree about the issues that Linux sometimes has....
|
| However, how is this different from current Windows? I
| have had a machine decide that it needed to update while
| I was in the middle of a teams call. "Luckily" I was able
| to switch over to phone while it did what it wanted to do
| and then switch back but still....
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Your Wi-Fi drivers have been removed from the kernel.
| Please download them on USB stick. You were warned
| thisislife2 wrote:
| Others in the family still use iDevices. Can't avoid Windows
| or macOS due to work. Prefer FreeBSD and use that mostly.
| It's an old mac and will be dumping it after another year or
| two. Do not plan to buy an Apple computer ever again as
| soldered RAM / HDD and iShittification of macOS is the
| future.
| vundercind wrote:
| Because all operating systems are terrible but the rest are
| so incredibly bad that Apple's are still by far the best,
| once you add up time saved by features and capabilities and
| subtract time lost to pain-in-the-ass brokenness.
|
| (Two decades on DOS/Windows home series and NT, at least for
| gaming and sometimes work, twelve years with Linux as my main
| desktop OS, started on Android for smartphones, before
| finally giving Apple a fair chance around 2011 or 2012...
| because I was issued a MacBook at work and was doing dual-
| platform mobile dev--FWIW I was rooting for BeOS back when it
| was still a thing, it was great)
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| The real question is why is every other company with a
| consumer OS even more incompetent and/or malicious?
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| " Every other company "
| fsflover wrote:
| What's incompetent about Linux? Have you tried to buy
| preinstalled?
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Have you ever tried to compare something like Ubuntu or
| RHEL on a per feature per function basis with Mac OS?
|
| There are literally thousands of possible combinations of
| accessibility features alone, that are vastly more
| difficult to impossible to access. Or simply don't exist
| in any form. Once you add in all the default apps and
| functions of Mac OS, there's likely millions of possible
| combinations that would take a fortune in time and effort
| and knowledge to replicate maybe a quarter of, on a
| hypothetical laptop installed with Linux.
|
| Not to mention many peripheral manufacturers for many of
| their product lines simply don't officially support any
| version of Linux released in the past few years.
|
| Edit: Of course 99% of these combinations are irrelevant
| to any particular individual, but they are all relevant
| to at least a few small groups.
|
| Linux promoters don't seem to understand that alienating
| a few thousand users each time is a big deal if that
| alienation process happens thousands of times...
| talldayo wrote:
| > Have you ever tried to compare something like Ubuntu or
| RHEL on a per feature per function basis with Mac OS?
|
| Yes? Why would people recommend it as an alternative
| otherwise?
|
| I used MacOS for 5 years, left after Mojave and came back
| when an employer made me support MacOS. The current
| software experience on Mac is genuinely insufferable.
| Advertisements in your news, notifications begging you to
| try Safari, zero support for common and Open Source
| filesystems, constantly broken software packaging, zero
| useful APIs (what am I supposed to do with Metal???) and
| a $99/year tax to compensate for the displeasure of
| supporting developers. You _really_ want to argue Apple
| cares about you?
|
| As a software developer, what pushed me over the edge was
| Docker. It runs absolutely terrible on MacOS, consumes
| resources/battery and makes your CPU hot as satan's
| taint. Native development is a nightmare on MacOS and you
| just have to settle with that if you want to defend it as
| your home. Don't even get me started on how bad Brew is.
|
| > Not to mention many peripheral manufacturers for many
| of their product lines simply don't officially support
| any version of Linux released in the past few years.
|
| If your peripheral manufacturer can't support USB class
| compliance, they do not deserve money in the first place.
| I produce music on Linux and haven't ever had a MIDI
| device or DAC fail to register. It's a standard that even
| Apple isn't "courageous" enough to reject.
| vundercind wrote:
| Yeah Docker's non-native and runs under a virtualized
| Linux everywhere but... on Linux, so that's a little
| rough. I've found some of the alternative VM hosts for
| that to be a ton faster and more power efficient, as they
| make better use of MacOS' built-in virtualization system,
| but YMMV. I've also found that Apple's lead on power
| management is so great that I can be using a power-
| sucking thing like Docker and still come out ahead, which
| is really lame :-/
|
| I hear that "Docker Desktop" is especially bad on MacOS,
| but I've used docker almost as long as it's existed and
| still haven't used that (I don't really even know what
| the point of it is?) so dunno about that part.
| airstrike wrote:
| _> As a software developer, what pushed me over the edge
| was Docker. It runs absolutely terrible on MacOS,
| consumes resources /battery and makes your CPU hot as
| satan's taint._
|
| Thanks for saying this. I own an M2 Max Macbook, which is
| my very first Macbook, and I tried Docker the other day
| only to find it was literally unplayable.
|
| I then recalled running Docker forever ago on a much
| shittier Windows laptop and it was sort of a breeze? I
| was confused as to why I couldn't have the same
| experience now.
|
| Thanks to you, at least I know this is unlikely to be a
| case of PEBKAC
| justin66 wrote:
| Power management.
| vundercind wrote:
| Windows is still bad at this, too, incredibly. Was
| initially issued a Lenovo Win10 machine at my current
| job, decided to give it a shot because I hadn't used
| Windows for work in a long time, might have gotten
| better.
|
| It was using 40% of its battery while "sleeping" over
| night, and even at full charge wouldn't get me through a
| light work day on battery--not even close. Straight back
| to the battery-anxiety I hadn't felt since back when I
| used Windows and Linux on laptops years and years ago.
| Plus the touchpad is still ass (sorry, never got any good
| at aiming with the track point, even though I used an IBM
| Thinkpad for years and years)
|
| Luckily this place will issue a MacBook if you ask
| nicely. My god, that was a rough few weeks.
| justin66 wrote:
| > Windows is still bad at this, too, incredibly.
|
| I couldn't agree more. And yet, Linux manages to be
| worse, since the "at least I can just hibernate" backup
| plan doesn't even work properly.
| vundercind wrote:
| The only time I've ever seen Linux disk hibernation
| actually work about 100% of the time was on an IBM
| Thinkpad I used to have, and _only_ if I did some arcane
| magic with a specially-sized-and-designated partition in
| _just_ the right partition order, because that triggered
| something in the hardware that let it handle things
| directly.
| fsflover wrote:
| I saw people being happy with hibernation on Librem 14 (I
| use Qubes OS, which doesn't support it).
| freedomben wrote:
| If you've been on a MacBook since 2011 or 2012, it's
| definitely time to give modern Linux a try. It has come in
| enormously long way since then. I am not exaggerating when
| I say, I have a better out of the box experience with
| Fedora. Then I do with Mac OS. Mac OS certainly has a lot
| of features, and visually has a great deal of Polish, but
| it also increasingly has a lot of bugs.
| vundercind wrote:
| I try every couple years. I tried KDE on Fedora last time
| (I hate gnome since 3) and could still crash various KDE
| apps with drag-n-drop operations--I'd trained myself
| never to use those outside narrow situations on Windows
| and Linux years ago because they usually broke things or
| did something stupid, but am now accustomed to them both
| working _and_ doing something reasonable, so I spot those
| issues in a hurry when I use other environments now, and
| no longer accept that as just the way things are. Among
| other jank and poor stability, that's just an example.
|
| IIRC making caps another control anywhere I was logged in
| --not just in KDE--was weirdly hard, too.
|
| Five or six years ago my Ubuntu tv-attached old desktop
| forgot how to decrypt the root disk its own installer had
| encrypted, after an OS upgrade.
|
| My Debian server required manual intervention (busting
| out my rusty Gentoo chroot grub-installing skills) to
| install its bootloader. The manual version went the same
| aa usual and had no problems so no clue WTF the installer
| was trying to do, but it consistently failed, and this
| was boring, old business-class Lenovo workstation
| hardware. That was four or five years ago.
|
| Basically when I try to go back I'm missing lots of
| features and it's less stable than what I'm now
| accustomed to, so end up wasting a bunch of time and
| regretting it.
| TheSkyHasEyes wrote:
| Give XFCE a chance.
|
| > That was four or five years ago.
|
| Linux moves way faster than commercial OS IMO.
|
| Reconsider linux. Commercial OS isn't going to 'get
| better' for IT literate users. :/
| vundercind wrote:
| XFCE was my favorite back in my Gentoo days, after I
| started using laptop hardware fast enough that it wasn't
| noticeably slower than my prior favorite, WindowMaker :-)
|
| When I used early Ubuntus on desktop machines (back when
| Ubuntu wasn't terrible--before the PulseAudio fiasco and
| the following series of bad decisions and failed
| maneuvers against Red Hat) I usually just stuck with the
| default of Gnome2. That era's by far the closest I've
| seen Linux get to Just Working.
|
| [edit] FWIW I do find Void with a very-light window
| manager pleasant to use, but I don't want to have to
| self-serve every little feature these days, so it's
| pleasant but impractical for my actual life. Nothing
| short of a full DE, so just KDE or Gnome, with a
| batteries-included distro, stands a chance of matching
| what I'm used to just _being there_ and happening _for
| me_ without my having to ask for it. Unfortunately, I
| strongly dislike both of those DEs for different reasons.
| :- /
| aunty_helen wrote:
| Hard in this camp too. The OS tinkering that is as
| requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment.
| When you use your computer for work, that bill gets big
| quick and sometimes it's an inconvenience you just can't
| afford.
|
| MacOS, for all it's faults, can be tamed with little
| snitch and a slower update cycle, and then you have a
| relatively solid system. There's still some things to
| hate, like when I take my airpods out if I accidentally
| click one of the buttons Apple Music opens (no one wants
| to use Apple Music, ever). But, that little frustraition
| pales in comparison to the build your own experience a
| poweruser in Linux faces on a weekly basis.
|
| This randomly came front of mind last night when I
| thought, I can't remember the last time something broke
| on my laptop. It's been literal months since I've had
| anything weird or unwanted that I've _had_ to deal with.
| Contrast that to the last time I tried to daily Linux,
| about 2 years ago when I bought a framework and couldn't
| even log in due to trackpad issues, sleep / hibernate
| issues, screen resizing issues, issues issues issues.
| vundercind wrote:
| I have plenty of complaints about Apple's stuff, but my
| consistent experience when I try to use something else,
| for the last decade+, is that I'm jumping out of the
| frying pan and into the fire. Even goes for things like
| Shield vs Apple TV.
|
| I very much wish they had one or more peers putting them
| under pressure to do better, but the (tiny--which is
| likely part of the problem) set of competitors seem to
| have other priorities than chasing the _particular_
| market that Apple does.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have
| to tinker with Linux. Like right now, I can give you a
| laptop with a clean Linux Mint install, and you never
| have to touch the terminal for anything system config to
| do work.
|
| Seriously, its not that hard to say that you prefer MacOS
| because you like the feel of it. It does a lot of
| handholding for you, unlike Linux, which makes it way
| less likely for you to mess something up. You don't have
| to go the extra lengths to justify it lol.
| mh- wrote:
| _> I don 't get why people still spread the lie that you
| have to tinker with Linux._
|
| It doesn't feel charitable to call people sharing their
| experience "spreading the lie". You're all over this
| thread talking to people that way. If you're trying to
| make the case that desktop Linux no longer has this
| characteristic, this isn't the way to go about it.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I'll put this out there, currently there's no better
| platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai
| systems.
|
| I'm not a stranger to Linux or the command line. I own,
| use, configure servers as part of my business, including
| the dreaded on metal cuda install. In fact, the terminal
| integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over
| windows for me.
|
| But, every time I try linux desktop, for the past 20
| years, it's been a horrible time sink and has driven home
| the point that building a competent and most importantly
| consistent gui based os is harder than everyone gives it
| credit for.
|
| I stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my
| desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot
| -sometimes- when trying to wake.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >there's no better platform than macOS on apple silicon
| for developing ai systems.
|
| Lmao WHAT?
|
| The ANE system isn't even remotely useful, since is
| primarily designed for running Apple AI stuff. This is
| why its integration is so spotty. IIRC, Tinygrad is
| faster on apple silicon than pytorch at this moment,
| solely because they did a whole bunch of reverse
| engineering.
|
| Laptops for ML is just a lost cause as far as matrix
| multiply is concerned. Nobody is actually doing any
| serious work on ML stuff on laptops.
|
| >In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the
| biggest things over windows for me.
|
| Which is funny, because Windows has WSL2 which works
| incredibly well, has native CUDA integration for ML tasks
| thats quite good, has an X server that lets you run GUI
| apps, and is actually linux (not BSD), without anything
| to get in your way, and its better because its an
| isolated system that you don't have to worry about
| bricking and not having a usable computer.
|
| > stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my
| desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot
| -sometimes- when trying to wake.
|
| The standard argument of "here is a particular bug that
| doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better" lol.
|
| Like I said, its not really that difficult to say that
| you just prefer the Mac OS experience and end it there.
| You don't have to go on these weird tangents.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _The standard argument of "here is a particular bug
| that doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better"
| lol._
|
| Yeah, this article is literally about an annoying MacOS
| bug. I use a Mac 8 hours a day for work; it's a great
| machine, but I bet I'd have 20 glitches and annoyances
| that I work around, by reflex, all the time.
|
| MacOS is good, but it's certainly not flawless. And if it
| wasn't for Apple's magnificent hardware, I'm not even
| sure it's the best.
| justonenote wrote:
| That really depends on what type of work you are doing
| and your specific combo of hardware. And yes you can do
| work, but when sleep and power management doesn't work
| it's a significant QoL downgrade.
|
| If you want to use CUDA as a simple example, you'll have
| to go through the process of using nvidia proprietary
| drivers and I'm far from well versed on it but that gives
| me random warnings and I don't quite get the
| compatibility between it and Xorg/Wayland or which combo
| to use and I have on more than one laptop ended up with a
| system that works but that the desktop randomly freezes
| requiring a hard reboot.
|
| I still do use Linux Desktop and try various different
| Debian based or Fedora distros out but you definitely do
| end up tinkering. I don't use MacOS fwiw.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| The only issue that I have ever had with drivers is when
| the ubuntu automatic install defaulted to the latest open
| source ones which weren't being recognized.
|
| For a whole bunch of other installations, following
| official linux instructions on Nvidia works incredibly
| well. Im probably up to like 30 installs of linux mint on
| laptops and desktops, without issues. I had a personal
| laptop with manjaro that suppored nvidia prime, I didn't
| even have to do anything special, just installed nvidia-
| smi, and prime-run worked out of the box.
|
| And generally, for equal comparison, I wouldn't consider
| laptops with discrete graphics to be in the same family
| as more business oriented Macs, the more apt comparison
| would be those with AMD chips with integrated video
| drivers, for which you don't need to fuck with any
| drivers.
| justonenote wrote:
| I don't know maybe I've just been unlucky, but at least
| for me on a couple of different laptops I regularly get
| full desktop freezes on Debian & Fedora from using things
| like VMs / GPU accelerated browser (Chrome) / Other
| things (I don't actually use CUDA/AI much at all but I
| suspect the issues come from sharing of GPU resources
| across apps, could be wrong)
|
| This doesn't happen on Windows nearly as much on the same
| laptops, I don't use Macs that much. And yes I agree it
| does seem more of an issue with laptops with discrete
| graphics.
|
| I do still use Linux desktop a lot, I'm happy to take the
| trade-off but my point was just that depending on the
| work you do, or the features of the laptop you want to
| use, like power mgmt or bluetooth, there will be
| tinkering. (and yes this is entirely manufacturers fault)
| godelski wrote:
| > If you want to use CUDA as a simple example,
|
| When was the last time you tried this?
|
| If your "CUDA" needs are pytorch, tensorflow, whatever,
| pip install (or uv pip install) and you're good to go.
|
| When was the last time you even needed to? If you need to
| do actual kernel writing and thus actually need CUDA
| (this is pretty uncommon and I think most people that do
| that wouldn't be asking this question), then most of the
| issues are not actually issues.
|
| I'll give an example of my latest CUDA error. I run
| EndeavourOS (Arch based) and so yes, using bleeding edge
| drivers. Did an update, reboot, oh no... I get to lock
| screen, login and black screen (but cursor).[0] What's
| the solution? Roll back cuda. Didn't work? Roll back
| kernel. Now it works. The problem? nvidia-560-35.03-9 was
| incompatible with kernel 6.11. I even was able to find in
| the forums (quickly) the exact issue[1].
|
| But why am I saying this is no biggie? Well... I'm
| fucking running 560 drivers, which are beta. If you worry
| about these issues, don't. If you don't want that power,
| don't run Arch, Gentoo, or other bleeding edges. You know
| the most confusing part of this all? Was people posting
| their driver versions with `inxi -G` and so you only see
| `560.35.03` but I had to roll back `560.35.03-9` to
| `560.35.03-6`. But also, Nvidia could be better about
| their namings.
|
| I will also concede that there is a lot of shit
| information out there and actually parsing what the real
| answers are takes experience. So here's my advice when
| you run into your next issue: Getting
| Information: - Start with journalctl and dmesg (try
| `journalctl -b -p 3` and `dmesg -L -l "err+"`. `-b` is
| only messages since last boot and the other flags are to
| only give you errors or worse). These are your "logs"
| - There are others, and they *should* go under `/var/log`
| but just like in OSX how random junk goes to
| {~,/}Library/{Caches,Application Support} - Check
| versions, especially if you did an update -
| (side note): For all those confused where files should
| go, try `man hier` - Good chance you can get
| through by reading the man page, but this doesn't always
| apply - also remember you can do `man 7 man` or
| `man man.7` (replace second man with any command). Also
| see `man -a man` - Don't know what man page you
| need? Try `man --regex cuda` - Visit the Arch Wiki
| (even if you're not on Arch) -- maybe even the Gentoo
| Wiki. RedHat docs are also pretty good - After
| that, try your distro's (or their parent's) forums.
| - Archwiki is good, Arch forums are a toxic hellhole
| occupied by people who's idea of grass is entirely
| contrived from what is visible on a screen. Use the
| forums of the children. I'm sorry to those who've
| experienced that place. - Then try Google, focusing
| on things from your logs. This would be up higher, but
| you can put quotes around things or dates and Google will
| outright disrespect you now) - If it is a
| specific program that looks to be the issue, try the
| Git{Hub,Lab} issues page too. Feel free to open an issue.
| Most devs are pretty nice, even to noobs, though there
| are also many who will insinuate you RTFM after quoting
| and linking to it. I'm also sorry about this.
| Solving issues: - First try rolling back. If you're
| not messing with your system, this can make most problems
| go away VERY quickly. - If you're on a rolling
| release distro (like Arch) then this is your goto. Unless
| you like problem solving. But then why are you on Arch?
| - With `pacman` this can usually be done quickly with
| `pacman -U file:///var/cache/pacman/pkg/thing-you-want`.
| You can use other tools, but this is good to know, and
| you know where things cache :) (`downgrade` is the common
| tool but it just does this) You can even do kernels this
| way! - Things like `timeshift` are useful (and
| the `pacman` or `apt` "autosnap"). But beware if you
| aren't using `grub` to just not do that option. Also
| check out `btrfs` - If need to reinstall an old
| kernel and it isn't in your cache check out the command
| `reinstall-kernels` (try `cat /usr/bin/reinstall-
| kernels`). This is a uncommon task and might only be
| because you've filled up `/efi` and deleted a kernel.
| - Stop fucking with the kernel if you don't know what
| you're doing. 99% of the time this is ***NOT*** the
| solution[2] - For nvidia you might want
| `nvidia_dr.modeset=1` and ***maybe*** (probably not)
| `nvidia_drm.fbdev=1` - Use `find` and `grep`.
| - I'm not joking, `find` is a crazy powerful tool and
| people sleep on it. (Seriously, how do people jump into
| large codebases blind and get running without `find`,
| `grep`, `awk`, and such tools?)[3]
|
| But honestly, you'll need to do none of this stuff if
| you're on a "baby" distro. I very much welcome people to
| become more experienced at linux but not everyone needs
| to be and there's no issue with using a distro that holds
| your hand (OSX and Windows do). But I would strongly
| encourage any programmer (not just linux users) to become
| more familiar with the cli. There's an investment cost,
| but you'll reap >10x rewards from these efforts, even in
| general programming situations.
|
| [0] For the fun of it, I asked GPT and gave it logs from
| journal and dmesg, it did not get the answer, and
| listening to it would have sent me down a rabbit hole
| where I'd be messing with the kernel (I use systemd and
| dracut, these were communicated to GPT and it was asking
| me to run mkinitcpio and mess with grub lol)
|
| [1] https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/only-black-screen-
| after-logi...
|
| And hey look, an update:
| https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/attention-nvidia-gpu-
| driver-...
|
| [2] For me `/etc/kernel/cmdline` looks pretty much like
| `nvme_load=YES nowatchdog rw root=UUID=<that>
| resume=UUID=<blahh> nvidia_drm.modeset=1
| nvidia_drm.fbdev=1` It should be short
|
| [3] Here's a free one for you. Got a python project and
| you forgot to place `__init__.py` in the folders? `find
| src -type d -exec touch "{}/__init__.py" \;` (replace
| `src` with your root source directory)
| justonenote wrote:
| Sorry what??
|
| Are you trying to refute my point that you end up
| tinkering if you are using Linux as a desktop?
|
| I don't want to run bleeding edge, I don't want to
| compile my OS from source, I did with slackware as a
| teenager, I just want to play around with SD and other AI
| models without it causing me to end up with my laptop
| randomly freezing to a hard reboot until I go down a
| rabbit hole of driver/kernel/window manger combos.
|
| If I want to do it on Windows it works and I don't get
| random hard freezes. Trust me I'd prefer to use Linux and
| do quite a lot but I really don't think you are refuting
| the point of 'you need to tinker a lot on Linux' with
| your post.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Linux on laptops is lots of fun, last one was getting
| UEFI to even acknowledge there was anything Linux related
| on a SSD.
| consteval wrote:
| The reason you have to tinker with MacOS and not Linux is
| because you're fine with how MaxOS is set up. So you
| waste your time in Linux getting it to behave like MacOS.
|
| Obviously if you go into it with the assumption MacOS is
| correct and the more like MacOS you are, the better, then
| Linux distros will fail horribly.
|
| People do this with Windows, too. If you go into it
| expecting Windows-isms you're gonna be very disappointed.
| And such "isms" aren't actually good at all - usually
| they suck. But because you already know them, they aren't
| "isms" anymore, they're now expectations.
|
| If you go back to the very first few times you used MacOS
| (or OSX at the time), you'll realize there was a lot of
| shit that surprised you. You adapted, and in some cases
| have actually come to PREFER functionality that sucks.
| And now you expect it, and that's the problem.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I had macos forced on me when I joined a company writing
| forex software. You're right, it sucked learning all the
| different keyboard shortcuts, learning to use an extra
| modifier key (now one of my favorite things) and just
| little things like double clicking a file renames it :/
|
| I thought it was crazy using the butter knife (from the
| meme) to write serious software. Previously I was a
| windows admin at a 500 computer site and dealt with
| Microsoft, debugging issues in their kernel. Throughout
| this time I've also use Linux extensively from Ubuntu
| when it came with pc mags to raspberry pi home security
| projects to servers and boxes. I even compiled gentoo one
| time for fun.
|
| I have enough experience to know the differences between
| all of the operating systems from '95 through to
| 22.04LTS. No, macOS can't be beaten for desktop
| experience, except for gaming which is now starting to
| come around also.
|
| Happy to die on this hill.
| vundercind wrote:
| The modifier key choice is (among popular solutions)
| simply _correct_. I had twoish decades of Windows /Linux
| shortcuts in my head so it took a few months to get
| comfortable with a Mac keyboard, but it's simply better.
| The cmd key location is excellent, you can feel how much
| less strain there is in your hand hitting cmd+c vs
| ctrl-c, and your fingers aren't pulled away from the home
| row. Between that and not conflicting with terminal
| signal shortcuts, it's the right way to do it (among
| common choices, anyway--I'm sure someone out there has
| some custom solution that's better).
|
| It's weirdly hard to get Linux to use that keyboard
| layout and shortcut set, which is a shame. There's demand
| for it, and some attempts to make it happen, but it must
| be really tough to achieve.
|
| Their default English layout is also easily the best of
| the major options I've seen, as far as simply typing
| English-language text goes. I don't get why other
| platforms don't clone it and use it for their default. No
| way it can be covered by patents, I think it's been
| mostly the same since before OSX. Linux has one
| alternative layout that's close to as good, but never
| seems to be the default English keyboard, for some reason
| --you have to know you want it.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks
| up a massive time investment._
|
| Huh, strange.
|
| I install Ubuntu as a daily driver on every system in my
| house and don't have to do any tinkering outside of
| customizations I _want_ (which I have more freedom to
| do).
|
| I mean, I understand there are certain proprietary
| devices or software that are going to require Windows or
| MacOS, and that's unfortunate. But the idea that
| everything is breaking all the time? I just don't see it.
| RunSet wrote:
| I have an M2 Macbook Pro mostly gathering dust and
| waiting until Debian supports it rather than dip so much
| as a toe into Apple's crass software ecosystem. For now
| it is a file server, albeit I had to purchase an dongle
| just to make it run with the lid closed because Apple
| deemed that an unlikely use case.
| KronisLV wrote:
| > and visually has a great deal of Polish
|
| It's great that they translated the UI in that language!
|
| Jokes aside, I use a mix of Windows 10, Windows 11, Linux
| Mint (have had a few DEB and RPM distros on the desktop
| too) and macOS. I have to say, that all of them are
| serviceable.
|
| Windows is sometimes quite annoying to deal with, but has
| a lot of software for it (the likes of PowerToys,
| MobaXTerm, WinSCP, System Informer, Handbrake, 7-Zip,
| HWiNFO64, MiniTool Partition Wizard, MPC-HC, Rufus,
| ShareX, XSplit VCam, VSeeFace and others). You can do
| most of the same things in alternative software in other
| OSes, but there's a huge variety to be found, same as
| with running most of the games out there natively. The UI
| feels hit or miss and worse in Windows 11 than in 10 in
| some regards (no vertical taskbar, for example, need
| fixes for the context menu etc.), but the OS feels
| usable.
|
| Linux Mint and other Linux distros are pretty much ideal
| for software development, hands down. Most tools work,
| the resource usage is great, there's a huge knowledgebase
| on how to do things out there, it's quite customizable
| and can be used on servers, desktop computers or even an
| old low spec laptop alike. I personally settled on
| Cinnamon, but XFCE was very usable and someone might
| prefer GNOME or KDE (there were even attempts at reviving
| the old Unity desktop from Ubuntu, that one might have
| gotten hate when it was the main option, but actually had
| its nice bits too). Gaming is hit or miss with Proton
| (many games will run but definitely not all, also forget
| about playing anything with invasive anti-cheat
| solutions), sometimes you also won't be able to get some
| productivity software running, if it's developed only
| with Windows in mind, Wine isn't a silver bullet but it's
| nice that it exists.
|
| My M1 MacBook as an overall computer feels like it has
| great build quality despite the overpriced hardware. I'm
| mentioning that, because it's very well integrated with
| the hardware and I haven't had any weirdness due to that
| yet, like the touchpad on a laptop stopping working after
| a fresh Fedora install, or needing to compile Wi-Fi
| drivers from a GitHub repo for it to work at all, or
| Windows looking at the RAM available in a laptop and
| deciding that it wants most of it for itself and to slow
| everything down to a crawl. In macOS, the desktop also
| feels polished, is reasonably customizable, though
| sometimes is a bit jarring compared to both Windows and
| Linux distros, as are the things surrounding it
| (everything from the keyboard layout, to how managing
| open programs works, also connecting to an external 1080p
| monitor is a miserable experience because it doesn't fit
| within their own hardware ecosystem either). Development
| is doable, unless you go for the 8 GB version because you
| need the OS for a project and can't afford anything more,
| gaming feels way more limited than on Linux distros, but
| nothing feels particularly broken either.
|
| Neither is ideal, neither is horrible. They're all
| somewhere in the middle, doing more or less well when it
| comes to particular aspects.
| pndy wrote:
| > It's great that they translated the UI in that
| language!
|
| Bit offtopic but since you nudged it:
|
| The oldest Polish localization of MacOS was done by a
| private company that insisted on using more "appropriate
| linguistically" terms that have roots in the 70s Polish
| IT. Tho, some people claimed it was just an attempt to
| separate Apple's system from Microsoft's even more
| dramatically. And for example instead of "icon" - "
| _ikona_ " that translation introduced "stamp - "
| _znaczek_ "; "edit" menu item - " _edycja_ " (sometimes "
| _edytuj_ ", depending on program) was "change" - "
| _zmiana_ ", "folder" that stayed as it is become "
| _teczka_ ", "briefcase". The most prominent example is
| the "cancel" translation, which elsewhere become "
| _anuluj_ " but the team opted for "abandon", "cease" - "
| _poniechaj_ ", tho some argue it should be "desist" - "
| _zaniechaj_ ".
|
| The first official Leopard translation followed let's
| say, the 'industry standard', tho "desktop" still is
| being called there " _biurko_ " while Linux and Windows
| uses term " _pulpit_ " which is more close to
| "dashboard".
|
| The discourse that happen around "cancel" translation is
| still bring up on few occasions, as an example of trying
| to preserve origins of that old IT glossary and also of
| being nonconformistic to the ridiculous levels for some
| weird personal reasons.
|
| Echoes of that translation can be seen in the Polish KDE
| localization - there's one contributor who insists for
| using these rather obscure and weird terms:
| https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286 and since
| there's no official community nor team (to my knowledge),
| that translation gets approved and makes KDE looking
| weird for someone coming from Windows
| herpdyderp wrote:
| Hard disagree. Every Linux-running personal computer that
| I use or have used is a terrible experience. Something is
| always broken, the whole system needs to be hard rebooted
| at least a few times a week, parts of the OS will
| randomly stop working each day, the list goes on and on.
| macOS is not perfect by any means, but at least I can
| actually get work done on it.
| Volundr wrote:
| As a counter anecdote, I run Arch on everything except
| the MacBook I was issued for work. They've all been
| running perfectly for years, I can't remember the last
| time I had an issue that wasn't ZFS failing to compile
| for a new kernel, and I opted into that problem.
|
| Meanwhile my work Mac every so often decides my external
| monitor just doesn't exist anymore and I have to reboot
| with it unplugged, then again with it plugged in to get
| it back.
| exe34 wrote:
| > Something is always broken, the whole system needs to
| be hard rebooted at least a few times a week
|
| I remember this sort of thing about 15 years ago, but in
| the last 8 years of nixos, I've maybe hard rebooted
| twice. I've also only ever rebooted after an upgrade.
| otherwise I go months with just sleep/wake. I wonder if
| you have some interesting hardware...
| zdragnar wrote:
| Funny, I have the exact opposite experience. My Linux
| laptops just work. My last three Mac laptops were a pain
| to use.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| In early 2010s this was sometimes the case.
|
| In modern days, you can daily drive linux without issues.
| If you were having issues, it was most likely you were
| doing something wrong, or you were using a company
| configured laptop that the IT department didn't set up
| right.
| bolebob wrote:
| This is still the case. KDE is full of bugs, bluetooth
| does not work properly (it fails to swap between hidef to
| a microphone/speaker setup automatically), 4K monitors
| have all kinds of problems (though KDE 6 fixes quite a
| few), hardware decoding in firefox/chromium for videos is
| a horror, the stupid fan starts all the time out of
| nowhere (by far the most annoying intel machine
| behaviour, thermals in windows are much better), and
| battery is dead after a three-four hours max (and usually
| much worse than windows on the same horrible x86
| hardware).
|
| A macbook air is miles ahead, unless you confine yourself
| to old hardware. I moved from thinkpads + arch to mac +
| brew. The experience is insanely better.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Some of the most productive developers that I've known
| have been on Linux since the 90's.
| backtoyoujim wrote:
| can it send txt messages to a phone ?
| tsimionescu wrote:
| I very much doubt that. I tried installing Fedora on my
| new laptop, and the defaults are horrible. It doesn't
| even support two-finger gestures on the login screen, so
| you have to right click in a different way before logging
| in.
|
| At least it's not as bad as Ubuntu, which allowed me with
| a simple warning to install Nvidia drivers without a full
| system update, which broke the system so badly it
| couldn't even boot anymore, o an otherwise newly
| installed setup.
|
| And Debian is horrible too, it doesn't even have a task
| bar of any kind (you are forced to Alt tab to switch
| apps, or even see which other apps are running), unless
| you go hunting for some extensions someone made.
|
| All of these can be made to work decently, but calling it
| a good out of the box experience is laughable.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _It doesn 't even support two-finger gestures on the
| login screen, so you have to right click in a different
| way before logging in._
|
| A default setting you don't like and have to adjust? How
| horrible.
|
| > _At least it 's not as bad as Ubuntu, which allowed me
| with a simple warning to install Nvidia drivers without a
| full system update_
|
| So...user error?
|
| > _And Debian is horrible too, it doesn 't even have a
| task bar of any kind (you are forced to Alt tab to switch
| apps, or even see which other apps are running)_
|
| Now I get it, this is satire for someone complaining
| about the Linux experience. Good one!
| baq wrote:
| IME macOS is easily the most broken and user hostile from a
| professional developer perspective. Maybe I haven't been
| using it enough, only 2 years.
|
| The hardware is amazing though and no other OS can
| predictably wake the laptop when opening the lid and not
| wake it when it's closed, which is kinda a deal breaker for
| a laptop, so I still use it. Not particularly excited about
| it, would prefer a Linux laptop if it could sleep reliably.
| (Seen pictures of a framework laptop with a kernel panic
| after wake, and I was seriously considering getting one.)
| iknowstuff wrote:
| it's very cohesive and stable by comparison to Windows.
| It's beautifully designed compared to KDE. It's most
| similar to gnome.
|
| if you're the kinda guy who sees it as user hostile, I'd
| wager it's because you refuse to learn the macOS/gnome
| paradigm and demand things to be how they were on your
| windows pc 30 years ago.
|
| what os/dwm do u use
| baq wrote:
| I'm not talking about how it looks - I don't care. I can
| find settings I need when the system implements them no
| problem.
|
| I'm talking about the gimped OS underneath the eye candy:
|
| - docker sucks compared to native Linux (obviously) and
| WSL2 (less obvious)
|
| - I have to install BetterDisplay (props to the dev btw,
| great tool) just to make my perfectly good 25x16 144Hz
| monitor not look like shit
|
| - I have to install a tool to invert my mouse scroll
| wheel
|
| - I have to install a tool to manage windows in a sane
| way (sequoia only just started to know how to do that but
| it's a looong way ahead)
|
| - I have to install a tool to have multiple things in the
| clipboard
|
| - Sequoia broke the system firewall and it's still not
| fixed in 15.0.1 (my mac is enterprise issued and it has
| all the fancy security apps you've all heard about)
|
| I ran out of time to keep going, these are what I'm
| running into daily. Fortunately there are tools, but
| every major macOS release breaks some of them.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >It's beautifully designed
|
| I hope you understand that when you say this, its pretty
| easy to see that you are solely in the ideological camp
| of liking Apple, not a rational one.
| consteval wrote:
| > it's very cohesive and stable by comparison to Windows
|
| That's an incredibly low bar. Windows 95 is cohesive and
| stable as compared to Windows.
|
| > It's beautifully designed compared to KDE
|
| It's beautiful. Designed? I don't know about that. In my
| experience, it takes significantly less clicks, swipes,
| or keypresses to perform action in KDE as opposed to
| pretty much everything.
|
| I consider that good desktop design, because these are
| tools. Less work = better tool.
|
| > It's most similar to gnome
|
| Yeah, and Gnome is awful IMO. Some things just can't be
| done without installing extensions. The workflow is very
| "my way or the highway". Seemingly simple actions require
| submenus of submenus. The UI design isn't dense enough,
| so a bunch of info is just missing.
|
| > refuse to learn the macOS/gnome paradigm
|
| The difference here is I can easily replicate what macOS
| and gnome have going in KDE. Because KDE is flexible, and
| those aren't. Why would I though, when I can instead
| abuse KDE for efficiency gains in workflows? I'd much
| rather do that.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >and no other OS can predictably wake the laptop when
| opening the lid and not wake it when it's closed
|
| You can do it in Linux with scripts. I had it on my old
| laptop when I had Manjaro on it. Basically disable any
| action on script close, then write a custom service that
| listens for an event and puts the computer to sleep. Only
| thing is you have to press the power button to wake it,
| but it worked well.
|
| In general, I have been using work issues Macs, and I
| tend to agree - they are pure shit. I wouldn't even call
| them good hardware. People seem to forget how mac thought
| it was a good idea to make the esc button a virtual one
| on the touchbar. I had 3 work replacements, first one
| fried chip due to an "incompatible" usbc hub, the other 2
| started swelling batteries. In every single case, I ended
| up losing a small amount of work I haven't backed up
| (like a shell script), since you can't replace the hard
| drives.
|
| Currently on the latest iteration of MBP 14 inch, the
| hardware seems good so far. Battery life claims are
| overrated - with slack, bunch of browser tabs and VSCode
| I get max 4 hours, but to be fair, this is the lightest
| laptop that Ive had that can do that (I used to have a
| much larger Thinkpad that could do CAD for 4 hours on
| battery)
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >cause all operating systems are terrible
|
| This is code words for "Im emotionally invested into my
| choice for non logical reasons and its very hard for me to
| admit I have made the wrong choice".
| nearting wrote:
| And your response is code for "I'm unfamiliar with the
| concept of oligopolies, and believe that every
| consumption choice should be based on logic alone." Come
| on.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| There is a difference between saying "less than optimal"
| and "bad" if you are really trying to convey some
| technical point.
| vundercind wrote:
| One cause of the problem is that ~99% of the user-facing
| OS market is steered by three total companies, for sure.
|
| One difficult bit, though, is interoperability. Even
| absent monopolist BS (and there's plenty of that) it
| makes the OS market tend toward winner-take-all.
| vundercind wrote:
| My choice is also bad. Zero of them are good. All
| constantly have stupid quality problems or fail to
| operate as well as they should.
|
| It's a choice between hamburgers that are 30-50% shit,
| and one that's 10% shit. Every single one has way too
| much shit in it. All of them deserve loud, angry
| complaints about the amount of shit they contain. But if
| I _must_ eat a hamburger...
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >All constantly have stupid quality problems or fail to
| operate as well as they should.
|
| And my guess is that your "operate as the should" is
| probably some very personal opinions about how an OS
| should function based on your personal workflow, that you
| assume should be the defacto standard.
|
| But for the sake of the argument, lets just assume that
| your standard is actually optimal from an efficiency
| standpoint. In that case, the argument to make in case of
| Mac would be this: Out of the box, Macs are closer to
| optimal, but technically Linux is is better because you
| can customize it to be exactly optimal.
| vundercind wrote:
| > Out of the box, Macs are closer to optimal, but
| technically Linux is is better because you can customize
| it to be exactly optimal.
|
| If you've got a clean solution for getting cmd-style
| shortcuts so you don't have to deal with the how-is-this-
| still-a-thing-in-2024 problem of conflicting shortcuts in
| terminals, on Linux, I'd love to know what it is. And
| that's just the start of it.
| goodprojection wrote:
| Sounds like projection to me. lOl
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Nope. Standard human behavior. Plenty of studies done
| that shows that when you attack peoples opinions, it
| feels like personal attacks. Peoples opinions are a
| fundamental part of their ego, and we all have a
| fundamental drive to self actualize, which translates the
| active process in ensuring that we are what we believe we
| are.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _Apple's are still by far the best_
|
| MacOS may not even be the best (that's subjective), let
| alone "by far" the best. How can you make this claim when
| you haven't used Linux in a decade?
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Just use Linux bro (Suspend still doesn't wake consistently
| on my thinkpad it's been 20 years)
| fsflover wrote:
| Suspend is flawless on my Librem 14.
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Thanks let me just go to distrowatch.org and install a
| new distro
| fsflover wrote:
| This is more related to hardware than the distro.
| throwaway19972 wrote:
| The marginal cost of that work is insignificant compared to
| the amount of equivalent work you'd have to put in for linux
| or bsd.
|
| Plus, little snitch is basically state-of-the-art in terms of
| ease-of-use if you're willing to put the money into it.
| Foivos wrote:
| How can you even install the update without access to the
| Internet?
|
| For years, I can not do the automatic updates, because it
| always fails with an error message along the lines of "Failed
| to personalise software, check your internet!", even though I
| have a perfectly working Internet connection. The only way to
| update is with a live USB and an ethernet connection.
| Everything else fails.
| thisislife2 wrote:
| You can manually download the updates from here -
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/docs for the older versions
| of mac (or check and download it manually through Software
| Update). Once the installation starts, the installer does
| some verification and / or data collection for which it
| requires the internet, and then starts the installation - at
| this point, just switch off the router.
| isodev wrote:
| The beautiful hardware of the Mac is so wasted with recent
| versions of macOS.
| diggan wrote:
| It's funny how Apple went from leading in UX/UI and being
| average/below average on hardware, to the opposite. iOS/macOS
| truly is a cluster-fuck when it comes to UX that makes sense.
| Luckily we can run other OSes on Apple computer hardware, but
| not as lucky with Apple phone hardware...
| talldayo wrote:
| My kingdom for an iPad that runs GNOME!
| isodev wrote:
| Or KDE Plasma... they've been making amazing things with
| look and feel in the last couple of releases. Either way,
| that much customisation and user control on an iPad...
| practically unheard of.
| userbinator wrote:
| _every time I update macOS, some of the system settings are
| changed to default including some in the firewall_
|
| Windows has also been doing that for some time now. Only Linux
| is relatively "clean" from that perspective, but even now some
| distros are beginning to sneak in spyware. The enshittification
| of OSes continues...
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Please tell me that upgrading fedora versions works every
| time ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
| timlatim wrote:
| What problems have you encountered on Fedora that were
| caused by a distro upgrade? Asking this because I've been
| using Fedora for years across different machines and can't
| recall any breakages that were direct consequences of an
| upgrade, though I usually apply it a month or two after the
| release date, so maybe there are early kinks that get
| resolved by that time.
| RMPR wrote:
| > but even now some distros are beginning to sneak in
| spyware.
|
| Citation needed. I remember Ubuntu sneaking in some stuff a
| couple of years ago[0], but most of the mainstream distros
| have a clean track record. What are you referring to exactly?
|
| 0: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/02/ubuntu-data-
| collection-o...
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| New installs make lots of unrequested accesses... fwupmgr,
| unbound-anchor, ocsp, firefox, all generate telemetry.
|
| Companies have tried buying floss software specifically to
| add spyware, such as audacity.
|
| It's not a big fraction of what proprietary OS does, but
| the threat grows steadily each year.
| yowzadave wrote:
| In this case it sounds like a bug--the issue is resolved on
| reboot.
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| I am completely with you here man.
|
| Everytime I upgrade my iPhone it turns on Bluetooth. Phreaking
| annoying.
|
| Apple clearly wants their customer base to use certain features
| so they simply enable them at upgrade. It's gross.
| nubinetwork wrote:
| The article has today's date on it, but I could swear I read this
| exact same article a month ago...
| diggan wrote:
| From September 13, 2023:
|
| > During the macOS 14 Sonoma beta period Apple introduced a bug
| in the macOS firewall, packet filter (PF). This bug prevents
| our app from working, and can result in leaks when some
| settings (e.g. local network sharing) are enabled. We cannot
| guarantee functionality or security for users on macOS 14, we
| have investigated this issue after the 6th beta was released
| and reported the bug to Apple. Unfortunately the bug is still
| present in later macOS 14 betas and the release candidate.
|
| https://mullvad.net/en/blog/bug-in-macos-14-sonoma-prevents-...
|
| Was fixed September 22, 2023 it seems
| (https://mullvad.net/en/blog/macos-14-sonoma-firewall-bug-
| fix...).
|
| Seems like Apple's product/engineering department doesn't agree
| with the marketing department about how important their users
| privacy is.
| VoxPelli wrote:
| It's been reported by Little Snitch as well:
| https://obdev.at/blog/should-i-upgrade-to-macos-sequoia-part...
| banku_brougham wrote:
| I've heard NixOS is good, but I guess I still need a GUI os
| because of browser and some apps I use regularly. I would love to
| get out of the macOS world, its going to a bad place. Seems like
| I've configured my whole digital life around apple.
| chatmasta wrote:
| If you want leak-proof VPN, you need to implement it outside of
| your device, at the router level. This is true for any device but
| Apple devices in particular.
|
| I highly recommended sniffing the traffic on the wire and piping
| it through wireshark. You can do this with a router, or a passive
| Ethernet tap. You'll see a bunch of packets going to places other
| than your VPN entrypoint. If you use a router, you can check your
| mobile for leaks too. (Did you know if you have WiFi calling
| enabled, then your phone makes a TCP connection to a sensor
| server controlled by your ISP every 30 seconds? So if you've got
| T-Mobile and you're abroad, not even using it as your default
| SIM, they'll get a nice log of every exit IP you use.)
|
| Apple's seeming embrace of support for VPN and network filtering
| extensions is a red herring, because they'll happily disable it
| for their own traffic.
|
| On iOS, the App Store will skip any VPN, and similarly Apple will
| even block you from downloading updates if you're on a VPN. I
| only realized this when I used my wireless router with VPN on it
| and updates failed to download.
|
| On Mac, there are a bunch of issues, especially on first boot. It
| seems like the Mac will refuse to establish the VPN until it can
| make one connection outside of it. I encounter this when my
| computer wakes from sleep and the on-demand wireguard tunnel
| (using Cloudflare Warp) fails to send packets. I unplug my
| Ethernet, disable always-on, wait 30 seconds (for some timeout?),
| re-enable always-on, and then plug in the Ethernet and in
| connects. But I'm not actually sure this isn't leaking, I need to
| investigate more.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > Unfortunately apps are not required to respect the routing
| table
|
| Insane. Why even have one or expose it to the user if it's just
| suggestive fiction?
|
| Vendors really need to stop privileging themselves on users
| machines.
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