[HN Gopher] Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable
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Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable
Author : LorenDB
Score : 138 points
Date : 2024-10-14 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
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| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| Unregulated markets trend towards brand lock-ins, proprietary
| parts, cheaper goods of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc. All
| businesses are doing this everywhere because we are running out
| of World for them to expand into, but any company that posts a
| less profitable quarter is presumed to be failing.
|
| For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite
| growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start
| contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to
| our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of
| this.
| nickff wrote:
| There are lots of counter-examples to this, such as the market
| for microprocessors. Huge market, few regulations, excellent
| quality, remarkably low switching costs.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| "Huge" market? AMD and Intel. Technically Apple but they
| don't sell to OEM's, and of course bespoke processors for
| specific applications.
|
| It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market
| itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your
| next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.
| taeric wrote:
| Can't get past the intro sentence without getting triggered. No,
| most people cannot fix a bike. As evidenced by the horrid shape
| most bikes are in. Heaven help folks that get the brakes so that
| they need to replace pads. You are as often to see people that
| ruined rims as you are to see people that did that correctly.
|
| Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be
| trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for
| the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need
| apps to run. That is just baffling.
|
| So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with
| repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my
| complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how
| powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you
| could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting
| hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to
| see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents
| assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| Unlike car maintenance bike maintenance is way more accessible.
| You need like one or two specialized tools to cover the
| majority of the work you'll do on your bike compared to a car.
| People are just lazy.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Exactly what specialized tools do you need to work on a car?
| Are you counting closed end wrenches and sockets as
| "specialized" or something?
| Ichthypresbyter wrote:
| While it is technically a socket, an oil filter wrench is
| reasonably specialized in that you won't see it in a
| standard socket set. Same may be true of a spark plug
| socket depending on your car.
|
| Otherwise, doing routine/basic maintenance on a car, such
| as changing the oil, requires a means of getting under the
| car (ramps or jack and stands) and of handling large
| amounts of fluids (drain pan and funnel) neither of which
| you need to do the equivalent work on a bike.
|
| A torque wrench is much more important for car maintenance
| than for bike maintenance (and you'll need a bigger one!).
| Depending on the condition of your car you may want a
| breaker bar.
|
| Obviously doing anything with the suspension requires a
| spring compressor, and troubleshooting certain engine
| problems requires a compression tester, but those are
| needed infrequently enough that they can be rented or
| borrowed.
|
| And that's before getting into the model-specific
| specialized tools for something like a timing belt change,
| or anything electronic (though I recommend anyone with a
| car should get a cheap Bluetooth OBDII reader).
| jessekv wrote:
| I gave in and bought a torque wrench recently for my
| bikes... modern bike components sure are light but they
| are also really easy to over-tighten.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > jack and stands
|
| Manual for my latest car recommends against jacking up
| under the front axle, so a jack and stands are out for
| getting underneath it.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| You have a pretty odd definition of "specialized". A jack
| is a jack. Yes, I use a big one for my truck since it
| weighs many thousands of pounds. I use the same jack to
| lift small cars and anything else I want, within reason.
|
| A torque wrench is a specialized tool...for torquing a
| fastener. I use the torque wrench to torque fasteners on
| my truck, my motorcycle, some random piece of equipment I
| want to repair, etc.
|
| I have seal drivers for driving seals on my motorcycle. I
| also can use them on hydraulic cylinders, or any other
| random seal I want to drive in.
|
| The only truly specialized piece of auto repair tooling I
| have is a tool that is cast and machined specifically to
| fit inside the engine head to remove a portion of the
| valvetrain for maintenance. It's a very boring once you
| understand how it works, but I'm not using it for
| anything else.
|
| As for a spring compressor, I've been doing suspension
| work for about a decade now and used one zero times. You
| just don't need it for routine maintenance. I guess if a
| spring breaks, you would need it in some weird
| circumstance possibly.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I can't change the oil in my ancient '99 passat (very low
| miles, I barely drive) without a special wrench.
| jrmcauliffe wrote:
| Had a mobile mechanic unable to change the timing belt on
| our 10 y/o Volkswagen Golf because the balancer is now
| secured with a proprietary lock-ring instead of four hex
| bolts.
|
| He said this sort of thing is getting more common and even
| if he did want to buy all of the required bits and bobs he
| wouldn't be able to fit them all in his van.
|
| Even in the 'good old days', you weren't getting very far
| working on your car without things like gear pullers,
| timing guns and feeler gauges. All things that technically
| you could be using for other things, but not exactly in the
| average toolbox of someone that doesn't work on cars.
| taeric wrote:
| I think the reality of most people using bikes in rather low
| stakes situations also changes things heavily. That is, many
| are riding bikes that I would not trust down a hill going
| 30+mph. But, notably, most people are not going anywhere
| close to 30mph on a bicycle.
|
| To that end, you are correct that most people are just
| needing to clean their bike. Replace the occasional
| consumable part of it, maybe. Keep it clean, though, and you
| are unlikely to need to replace any parts anytime soon.
|
| Edit: And, again, limit this to ebikes and things change
| pretty rapidly. It is trivial to get an ebike to 25mph.
| taylodl wrote:
| _> Didn 't take too many kids getting hurt before people took
| those seriously_
|
| The kids in my neighborhood are zipping around on these things
| at 30 MPH. In my state it's illegal for these kids to be riding
| around on these things, but the law isn't being enforced.
| Probably more of a hassle for the officer than it's worth.
|
| And safety? Bwahahahaha! Kids are riding these at 30 MPH in
| shorts, t-shirt and _maybe_ a bicycle helmet. Just the other
| day I saw three girls who appeared to be middle school-aged hop
| on an e-delivery type bike and ride 3 up! All they were wearing
| were those super short and super thin shorts girls like to
| wear, and a t-shirt. Not a single helmet. Yet there they were
| riding 3 up on this e-bike on public streets just after the
| peak of evening rush hour.
|
| It's insane! I'm continually amazed we're not seeing more news
| stories of kids getting hurt on these things. Don't get me
| wrong, I'm glad we're not seeing these news stories, but I'm
| amazed we aren't.
| hotspot_one wrote:
| I'm wondering what insurance companies are going to say. I
| have a feeling they will be the driving force at least in the
| US, since they are the ones picking up the bills.
| taylodl wrote:
| I'm wondering how the law is going to be applied in the
| event of an accident. In my state, if you hit a minor
| riding a bike then you're automatically at-fault and the
| burden of proof is on you to prove that the accident was
| unavoidable.
|
| Will that same law apply when the kid is operating a
| motorized vehicle? Especially if they're operating that
| vehicle illegally?
|
| TBF, it hasn't been a problem so hey, maybe these kids have
| a lot more sense than we give them credit for? Maybe I
| should just be grateful that those girls were outside
| playing instead of being in a screen and were feeling a
| little "dangerous" and rode 3 up on an e-bike?
| Micand wrote:
| I'm grateful that my 2019 Norco Section uses a round seatpost,
| threaded Shimano BB, and standard cockpit; I deplore the "self-
| adjusting" D-shaped Giant seatpost on my girlfriend's bike (which
| is subtly off-centre and takes all kinds of witchery to
| approximate the ease with which I can adjust a standard
| seatpost), as well as the mess of BBs and integrated cockpits
| that are becoming common even on mid-range road & gravel bikes.
| When I buy my next bike, I will go out of my way to select
| something using standardized parts. I very much hope something
| akin to the Framework laptop comes to market in cycling, where
| the entire machine is built to be user-serviceable with off-the-
| shelf, readily available parts. I put something like 20,000 km
| commuting to school on my early 1970s Raleigh Record, which I
| rebuilt almost completely with my brother, and it was a
| gloriously simple machine that I miss dearly today.
| bgribble wrote:
| You can still buy bikes like that. There are plenty of people
| still making frame sets that will work with standard drive
| train components, standard sized stems, and plain ol handlebars
| in a variety of shapes. And they will build a bike for you.
|
| I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my
| last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit,
| but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like
| a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra
| "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the
| weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul
| around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a
| fraction of the weight of the bike!
|
| Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I
| don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or
| other replaceable parts.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| It does seem like a complete bike that is under $1100 or so
| today will be less repairable than the bike I got in 2008 for
| $600 (less than $900 in 2024 dollars).
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| In some ways yes in other ways no. Shimano has been on
| their forced obsolescence train for 30 years. They don't
| make hoods for my old 8spd levers. If I want to not deal
| with ratty old tape over sticky ancient hoods I need to
| drop $130 on new claris levers and $25 on a new fd because
| the pull ratio changed then another $20 on new bar tape.
| soared wrote:
| Im going to disagree - bikes are incredibly more repairable
| because of e-commerce. I no longer rely on local availability of
| parts, and lack of documentation when doing repairs. YouTube has
| infinite knowledge and Amazon/walmart ship literally any part to
| my door. Bottom bracket as an example I don't think is fair - I'm
| an avid cyclist and have never once heard of anyone working in
| their bottom bracket. Chain, derailleur, cranks/pedals, brakes,
| handlebars, seat, etc are all very reasonable to do but bottom
| brackets everyone takes to a shop.
|
| Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely
| disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6
| online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair,
| but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a
| chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks
| replaced.
| oulipo wrote:
| It's true for mechanical bikes!
|
| For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with
| DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery!
|
| But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we
| really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to
| have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've
| designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's
| working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver.
|
| Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and
| repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or
| repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Often times community bike shops will have tools to let you fix
| one. It is a kind of once in a decade repair though.
| ljf wrote:
| Yeah I've only ever had to use my bottom bracket tool twice in
| 20 years of cycling, wasn't so hard to do (moving from a
| cracked frame to a new one once, and replacing a bottom bracket
| that had gone in a bmx) - but I doubt most people would try to
| diy it - it just so happened that I had the tool in my 'every
| tool you might ever need' kit from China.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I've replaced a couple and the conclusion is that this
| definitely has economies of scale since you will very rarely
| use the tool. Better to go take it to a bike shop. It wasn't
| hard once I had the tools, but I'm not going to use the tools
| that often. And I'm more likely to lose the bottom bracket
| adapter tool than reuse it, if I'm being honest.
| fragmede wrote:
| the online direct business doesn't have to pay rent for a shop
| space in an accessible part of Denver though, which is why
| downtowns can't compete on price
| criddell wrote:
| > shop prices are absolutely disgusting
|
| Do you think they are high because that's what it takes to pay
| for labor and rent, or are they high because the owners are
| greedy and are getting rich?
| soared wrote:
| Simply high from a consumers perspective. Some shops
| certainly are greedy (PE owned, multiple locations, like
| evo). But for the truly lbs I don't know the cause.
| thefaux wrote:
| I'm not saying these prices aren't painful, but I am pretty
| sure there are very few bike shop owners, let alone employees,
| with enviable wealth.
| anthomtb wrote:
| I replaced my own bottom bracket!
|
| Ok well, first I destroyed the threads on the cranks meant to
| interface with the bottom bracket tool. Thus requiring a shop
| visit. And the shop, after consulting with the frame
| manufacturer, cut the destroyed cranks off with an angle
| grinder (and posted a video to their Facebook page - you don't
| usually see that many sparks in a bike shop).
|
| But hey, I now have a nice, let-the-pros-do-this-job souvenir
| (the wrecked cranks). And my bracket/bearings are creak-free
| and spinning quite nicely three years later.
| oulipo wrote:
| Founder of Gouach, the repairable (and fireproof!) e-bike battery
| mentioned in the article, happy to answer any question!
|
| - we salvaged 100s of discarded e-bike batteries
|
| - we found that 90% of components were like new
|
| - batteries were thrown away because of the spot-welding and the
| glue which prevents repairability
|
| - we spent 2 years (and 5 patents) to design a robust, safe, and
| easy to assemble system that requires nothing but a screwdriver
|
| Our batteries have been in use since 2 years in the streets of
| France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible
| conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks), and we're very happy
| with their performances!
|
| We're now opening it to the general public (for conversion kits,
| and to replace old batteries that are no longer manufactured)
|
| We plan to open-source at least part of the embedded software, so
| people can write extensions (to let their battery "talk" with any
| e-bike system, and share it -- using WASM embeddable code -- to
| other people on the web!)
|
| Let's fight planned obsolescence!
|
| (and if you're looking for a new battery, there's 25% off on
| https://get.gouach.com)
| gr__or wrote:
| absolutely beautiful mission, thank you!
| oulipo wrote:
| Thanks so much!! Appreciated
| acyou wrote:
| How do you address local heat generation at the interfaces
| between the cells and the contacts? Does that pose additional
| risk of cell failure leading to thermal runaway in high current
| scenarios?
| oulipo wrote:
| Yes! You can check the technical details on our documentation
| and our FAQ here (sorry, we're still cleaning up now, but
| feel free to ask for details)
|
| https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-
| ques...
|
| We've seen that our design does not pose heating or
| resistance issues
| acyou wrote:
| Which cells did you test with? Is that result valid for
| other cells?
|
| What is your team's background in battery safety?
| oulipo wrote:
| We are using DMEGC INR 18650 cells, which is the best
| quality/price ratio that we've found, often beating even
| great brands.
|
| We've developed a LOT of experience on safety after
| fighting a few fires haha, this is why we added a lot of
| software and hardware safeties (fuses everywhere, alerts,
| etc)
|
| Oh and we designed a fireproof casing to be extra-
| cautious that nothing would happen to our clients!
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
| acyou wrote:
| Are you working with any external lithium ion battery
| safety specialists?
| pims wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I own a Specialized Vado SL from 2022. Can I use your battery
| as a range extender?
| oulipo wrote:
| Yes! You can use the Datex extender that we sell when you
| order the battery here https://get.gouach.com
| UltraSane wrote:
| Why does that URL redirect to your indigogo site?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Seems like a perfectly valid question to me. Why the
| flagging? Redirecting to IndiGoGo makes it look like it's
| not yet a real product. Linking directly to the product
| mentioned when the link was provided seems like a much
| more helpful thing rather than some generic self
| promotion. So is the product being pitched actually being
| sold as claimed, or is it hoping to become a product
| while looking for funding?
|
| So, why is the link redirecting?
| oulipo wrote:
| Hi! Thanks for the question!
|
| The link was our original pre-launch page, and now
| redirecting to the Indiegogo campaign!
|
| The product does exist, and is in use, but until now our
| clients have been B2B, who are able to pay upfront for
| the commands.
|
| As we are now opening to the general public, and we're a
| startup, we needed a schema like Indiegogo to get the
| money upfront and be able to buy the materials to
| assemble all the batteries!
|
| We're expecting to ship at the end of the year
| bsimpson wrote:
| That's awesome!
|
| Minor grammar tip - saying "since 2 years" is a tell that
| you're a non-native speaker. It's a common mistake that most
| people will understand, but the correct phrasing is "for 2
| years."
|
| I'm sure this is a pitch you practice a lot, so I wanted to
| help for next time.
| oulipo wrote:
| Thank you!! Appreciated :)
| rodgerd wrote:
| Meanwhile, English speakers are trying to get the hang of
| depuis/pendant...
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Alternately, "since two years ago" works too.
|
| "Since" goes with a particular moment in time (rather than
| an amount of time) to refer to the period between that time
| and now, like an old restaurant saying "making pizza since
| 1922" or for recent events like "since yesterday."
| cibyr wrote:
| Why does configuration require a closed-source app, with an
| account on your proprietary platform?
| sriacha wrote:
| Web page claims the app is being open-sourced.
| cibyr wrote:
| It's the "account required" part that really bugs me.
| Implies that everything is routed through some cloud
| backend that'll shut down one day and then you lose access
| to all the smarts in your "infinitely repairable" battery.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes,
| in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat,
| shocks)
|
| Um... Paris isn't exactly a harsh climate. Send some batteries
| to me in a month or two and I'll show them winter. Proper
| winter starts when it _stops_ snowing.
| detourdog wrote:
| That's great have you looked into the marine industry?
| biglyburrito wrote:
| I just read about Gouach on Indiegogo last week (
| https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/infinite-the-repairable-u...
| ) -- very cool stuff.
| cutchin wrote:
| I wish they'd have given more examples for traditional bikes than
| bottom brackets. Yeah, bike shops have to deal with lots of
| different BBs, but that's because they deal with bikes that might
| be 30 or 40 years old, from all over the planet. Some threaded,
| some press-fit, etc. Some high-end, some very cheap.
|
| On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that
| can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the
| tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making
| drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about
| everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now
| and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product
| range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes
| ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.)
|
| Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble
| repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or
| maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the
| article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike
| batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I agree that the message seems to mostly be about e-bikes,
| though I will say I was recently forced to get yet another
| Shimano BB / rotor tool recently, and I have quite an
| assortment of them now... My newest ride has a belt (not an
| ebike, but Gates + Alfine 11sp) which means more unique bits
| (but likely not for a while, I did have to get a fitting to oil
| the hub, but that's less work than keeping a chain lubed, so I
| can't complain).
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Hub is way more work than the chain. I have to repack mine
| soon and its going to take me getting it open, replacing the
| ball bearings, packing them in new grease after cleaning out
| old, then an undetermined amount of fiddling getting them
| just a quarter turn or so too loose in the cones so the quick
| release will torque them perfectly when its installed. Thats
| assuming nothing fights me along the way like a seized
| locknut on the cassette.
|
| Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a
| generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then
| its fine for another long while.
| acyou wrote:
| Lithium ion batteries and battery modules are never ever gonna be
| user repairable. The main reason is that the electrolyte is a
| highly toxic, carcinogenic and extremely flammable organic
| solvent. AAs are user swappable because the electrolyte is water
| based.
|
| Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed
| that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If
| parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to
| be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge
| bearings are used.
|
| Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see
| a straight up plastic adult bike frame?
| oulipo wrote:
| Check out what we're building at https://get.gouach.com ! We're
| solving exactly this problem, and we have designed a fireproof
| casing for extra safety! Happy to answer any question :)
| acyou wrote:
| I could see this being interesting if you handle all the
| aspects of pack teardown, rebuild and recertification, and
| send out finished packs. Would you be comfortable with doing
| that and standing behind those 100%?
|
| Asking regular people or even highly technical people to
| assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell
| capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire.
| It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new,
| matched cells.
|
| Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being
| charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not
| usually the case for consumer products.
|
| Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch
| vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns
| black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and
| a cell vents, will it start a fire?
|
| How are you going to thoroughly test with your production
| parts before shipping to customers next month?
| oulipo wrote:
| Thanks for all those questions! No we will ship standard
| cells that we tested the battery with (it is EU-certified,
| and UL-certification is ongoing)
|
| Yes! The battery is quite safe now! We have iterated on the
| design for close to 4 years now.
|
| We have added safeties everywhere so that even a misplaced
| cell wouldn't be dangerous. And as you mention the
| fireproof casing is the extra layer of safety, so that if
| there is an unlikely thermal event, no flames can go out.
|
| We've been running those batteries for around 2 years on
| about 1000 shared mobility e-bikes in France, so we're
| quite sure of the design!
| acyou wrote:
| That's great to hear. UL certification is a starting
| point. How is that going?
|
| What does EU-certified mean with regards to battery
| safety?
|
| I think the sticking point with UL is that you need to
| know the specific application in order to assess the
| downstream risks. Are you able to do the UL certification
| for multiple bikes, or just a specific model?
|
| Are you able to get UL certification for multiple
| different cell brands, or do you need to do a different
| certification for each type of cells used in the pack?
|
| I'm assuming mixed salvaged cells are off the table for
| UL certification?
| userbinator wrote:
| Lion cell electrolytes are nowhere near as toxic as those of
| NiCd or lead-acid. Flammability is the biggest risk. Toxicity
| is comparable to acetone.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_carbonate
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_carbonate
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate
| acyou wrote:
| Yes, but unless you drink the lead acid battery acid, you're
| not exposed to it. Ditto for NiCd. No one is drinking battery
| electrolyte. The key is that all of the above in Lithium ion
| are VOC and highly available, including what you mentioned
| and worse, specifically NMP.
| allenrb wrote:
| People are talking about replacing cells within packs, not
| disassembling the cells themselves!
| acyou wrote:
| Agreed, I apologize that I wasn't more clear. It's just
| that the electrolyte composition forms the basis of
| safety. In an environment where end users are handling
| bare cells, you need to assume the cells are
| leaky/ruptured.
|
| For example, if you have ever changed out old Duracell
| alkaline batteries, the white stuff on the contacts means
| they leaked.
| userbinator wrote:
| "In the US, propylene carbonate is not regulated as a
| volatile organic compound (VOC) because it does not
| contribute significantly to the formation of smog and
| because its vapor is not known or suspected to cause cancer
| or other toxic effects"
|
| "Diethyl carbonate is used as a solvent such as in
| erythromycin intramuscular injections."
|
| Ethyl acetate: "The LD50 for rats is 5620 mg/kg,[24]
| indicating low acute toxicity. Given that the chemical is
| naturally present in many organisms, there is little risk
| of toxicity."
| derkades wrote:
| At least standardized form factors and no complex proprietary
| communication protocols to the battery would help a lot to make
| battery replacements more affordable
| woah wrote:
| AAs aren't user repairable either. When was the last time you
| repaired an AA? What the article is asking for is just a
| standardized connector and voltage for Li-ion batteries.
| acyou wrote:
| I misspoke, what I intended to say is that lithium ion
| batteries are never going to be user swappable. Yes, you can
| get sketchy stuff off of Amazon that supports it, but the
| regulatory bodies will, correctly, continue to strongly
| resist end users touching bare lithium ion cells.
|
| Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you
| can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and
| toxic chemicals out one end.
|
| Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by
| cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab,
| for various good safety reasons.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers
| noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple
| decades.
|
| Steel frames are heavy beasts. Aluminum alloys, magnesium
| alloys or carbon fiber is waaaay lighter in contrast, and
| weight is king at least if you're not running with electrical
| assistance.
|
| It's exactly the same in cars, there we have exactly the same
| trend towards lighter but more brittle materials.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Bikes have sucked for a long time and they just seem to be
| getting worse. Even a bike that costs $5k+ will inevitably fall
| apart. I find that if you are a real serious cyclist the best
| option is to buy your own frame and then build your own rig with
| bespoke parts.
| burningChrome wrote:
| I've bought a lot of bikes in my lifetime and only twice have I
| opted to build a bike from scratch. Both times I was working on
| a bike shop. It was really the second time when one of our
| dealers had a "bike shop deal" where you could get a frame/fork
| setup for like $300. The Fox fork on the frame was worth around
| $700 so it was a really good deal.
|
| The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take
| for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you
| got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake
| fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and
| you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as
| well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them
| on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and
| handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes
| on and on.
|
| It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I
| kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I
| got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love
| building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together
| which took quite a while.
|
| It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike
| from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and
| patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike
| together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes
| dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model.
| Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs
| dialed in.
| thefaux wrote:
| Building a road bike with a threaded bottom bracket, rim
| brakes and pre built brakes really isn't that bad. I was
| pretty unexcited when disc brakes were introduced to road
| bikes due to the increased maintenance burden.
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| A $5k bike will fall apart way more quickly than a $1k to $2k
| bike. The only reason to get a $5k bike is if you are trying to
| win a race and have other people to do the maintenance for you.
| The lower end (but not absolute cheapest) parts are generally
| more reliable since they aren't nearly as weight optimized.
| swayvil wrote:
| Speaking as an ex bicycle repair man, this irks and/or boggles
| me. I feel trolled. I mean, I doubt the veracity of this headline
| and I think they're making shit up.
|
| Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop
| we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts.
| Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our
| reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel
| tuner.
|
| I can smell it now.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Work in a bike shop part-time. Can confirm: there are about two
| dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom
| brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old
| ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners
| you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple
| other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's
| usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for
| manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and
| seized after 20 years of neglect.
|
| As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an
| intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable
| as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."
|
| We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others
| that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October
| 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-
| bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality.
| I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't
| need it to just go for a ride.
|
| Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just
| Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them
| with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They
| _also_ want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The
| result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary
| direction.
|
| That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that
| are used in less-integrated installations across bike
| manufacturers.
| oulipo wrote:
| You're right!
|
| Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in
| users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch
| batteries.
|
| Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still
| issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire
| video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach
| fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch
| battery!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
|
| (the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one
| battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't
| change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning
| to film a new one next week haha)
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Appreciate the work you're doing, and to be clear: I'm not
| defending any of Bosch's business practices and vendor lock-
| in[0]. I do appreciate that they're big enough that they pop
| up on multiple manufacturers' bikes and that they offer a
| battery system that looks decent enough that various
| manufacturers are willing to use it.
|
| [0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their
| diagnostic software...
| oulipo wrote:
| Thanks for your message :)
| criddell wrote:
| I'd love for the EU (because I know the US won't do it) to
| start requiring battery standardization. I normally am
| complaining about power tool batteries, but now that I've
| started looking at ebikes it's clear that a more general
| regulation would really benefit consumers.
| oulipo wrote:
| Exactly! And EU is mandating that light mobility electric
| batteries be repairable (able to change cells) starting 2027!
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Realistically you only need the tools for your bike. Hardly
| matters that there are a dozen bb types, you pick the adapter
| you need and move on. And by and large most people are going to
| be something common like 22 spline not those weird campy bb
| from 50 years ago.
| TRiG_Ireland wrote:
| The science/education podcast Let's Learn Everything had an
| episode recently about planned obsolescence [1], and it does seem
| to have started with the bicycle. So this is not new.
|
| 1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-
| everything/70-the...
| oulipo wrote:
| This is very intersting! Thanks
| TRiG_Ireland wrote:
| I've just noticed that the timestamps on the page are clearly
| from a different episode. The planned obsolescence section
| actually starts at 57:42.
| abyssin wrote:
| Bicycles should be required to be sold with a sheet of all the
| measurements of replacement parts. I find that buying the correct
| part is often the biggest hurdle in maintaining my bicycles.
| gonzo41 wrote:
| OMG yes. This so much.
| m463 wrote:
| ever think the government should (externally) tax non-repairable
| stuff?
|
| Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?
| oulipo wrote:
| Great idea!
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Who decides if it's repairable?
| m463 wrote:
| Even a small start would be useful, like "user-replacable
| battery".
|
| not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery
| would pass.
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Does that mean a removable battery because who is to say
| that your bikes brand of batteries is going to be available
| for purchase tomorrow?
| m463 wrote:
| open standard battery > standard battery > removable
| proprietary battery > glued-in phone battery > whatever
| airpods do
| glaucon wrote:
| I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but what does "(externally)"
| mean ? A tariff ? In large enough trading blocs I would be
| concerned that manufacturing of the non-repairable part would
| just move within the bloc. I'm in favour of the idea but the
| mechanism might need some thought.
| Lio wrote:
| Hmm, I don't know anything about ebikes but normal bikes seem to
| be going back to BSA threaded bottom brackets.
|
| The last 3 bikes I've bought have had BSA.
| fire_lake wrote:
| How to make your life super easy if shopping for a bike:
|
| - 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered
|
| - Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded
| ones won't last as long.
|
| - QR or common thru-axle
|
| - Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but
| require a well made frame, and you'd be surprised how many
| expensive frames are not well made)
|
| - Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if
| you care about dropper posts
|
| - Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If
| going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price.
|
| - Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and
| better value that drop bar!
|
| - If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical
| equipment. It's much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro
| level not so long ago.
|
| - External cable routing!
|
| - Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of
| weigh/cost/durability
|
| - Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor
| in comfort
|
| - Never buy a bike that doesn't fit you
|
| These tips won't get you the best bike (in terms of absolute
| performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| I.. appreciate the effort but even as an owner of three bikes,
| and doing maintenance myself most of the time, I barely
| understand half of this list. I imagine most casual bicycle
| riders would be in the same boat?
|
| No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is
| this racing bike lingo?
| fire_lake wrote:
| SHIS is standard headset identification
|
| QR is quick release (as in wheels)
|
| BB is bottom bracket
|
| Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!
| unethical_ban wrote:
| You know more than I do about bikes. I've assembled one (except
| for fork/handlebars) myself and have ridden various styles.
|
| My only objection is brakes. If it can fit your budget,
| mechanical disc is worth the lower maintenance, adjustment,
| weather resistance over rim brakes. Disc in general have the
| fringe benefit of being able to swap tire sizes for different
| purposes.
|
| Hydraulic disc are smoother and somewhat more effective, at the
| expense of money and ease of maintenance.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Rim breaks are pretty maintenance free. I just replaced the
| pads only thing ive done to them in 5 years with this bike.
| $15 and 2 mins of work.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Maybe it's a bias due to my rim bikes being historically
| lower quality. My rims get out of true more than my discs,
| and cheap-style rim brakes are harder to adjust to even
| braking.
|
| I've never owned high quality rim brakes, that could be the
| issue.
| Lwerewolf wrote:
| -Rim brakes means ever so slightly bent rim = SOL.
|
| -There are some decent internal cable routing setups. The
| newest fad (through-headset), though...
|
| -Comfort has a ton of variables, of which tyre
| volume/pressure/type/details(inserts/etc) are a major part of,
| but not the be-all-end-all. Grips, handlebars, saddles, pedals,
| crank length, etc, etc, etc, etc...
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Rim breaks are fine for most people. your wheel has to be
| very very visually out of true to cause problems and thats
| only a $20 fix at the local bike shop. A little cathunk in
| the hands during braking never hurt anyone. Source: rode $40
| bikes through college. Most of the comfort stuff is not
| applicable unless you are spending hours and hours in the
| saddle. You aren't going to notice the crank arms are too
| short or your reach is too long commuting 30 mins to work.
| downut wrote:
| Truing a wheel is something that for 100 years avid
| cyclists (riding multiple times per week) could do with
| nothing but a single $3 truing wrench. If you were very
| poor like me in college you did it by pushing the rim
| brakes to one side or another and then truing against the
| rim hitting the pad. We used to do this on the trail, ride
| mates amiably sitting by why the whacked wheel gets put
| into "enough" true.
|
| Nowadays of course I have the whole kit, the Park truing
| stand, various truing wrenchs... and that's it. Oh right I
| use painter's tape to mark problematical spokes. I've built
| three sets of fabulous wheels that take a lot of abuse but
| let me still set personal records at (say) TdT.
|
| Now we get to the flame wars. I've been endurance cycling
| 50 years, since I was 14 or so. I completely understand the
| arguments for disc brakes for tandems and touring setups.
| What the disc brake people are not telling you is that the
| hand fatigue problem was solved by $40 Avid Single Digit
| rim brakes 25 years ago. I have a set on my mt bike that
| are truly single digit sufficient for most rough descents
| up to say 3000' and maybe an hour. Probably you need to do
| some exercises if you're doing those and having fatigue. I
| have been at Moab doing an insane gonzo abusive descent and
| noticing that hmm might be having safety issues soon with
| my forearms, and hmm, I need to get this descent done...
| but that was before the Avid brakes. My 20 yo Specialized
| frame FrankenBike with Avid SD brakes is not being replaced
| in I guess forever because it is gonzo abusive ready and it
| just works.
| bbqfog wrote:
| I wouldn't recommend anyone get quick release, thru-axle is so
| much better. Disc brakes too, it's such a huge upgrade. I'd
| also say a dropper post if you're doing anything off-road, or
| maybe even on-road, they're awesome!
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Unlocked QR wheels and seats get stolen and vandalized. QR
| should generally only be used where transportation space is
| limited or for stationary security, but otherwise prefer
| permanently-installed ones at the expense of having to carry
| a wrench with the tire patch kit.
| risenshinetech wrote:
| Hey guys, follow these 12 SUPER easy tips!
|
| - Industry jargon
|
| - Industry jargon
|
| - Etc etc
| adsteel_ wrote:
| Rim brakes/pull-brakes/v-brakes are great even for serious off
| roading, though you may want to upgrade to long caliper pads,
| which make a world of difference. Disc brakes aren't helpful
| until you're doing serious downhill. Why everyone has disc
| brakes these days when they don't need them is a great
| question.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Rim/v-brakes just need proper adjustment, replacement pads
| when worn, and clean rims. They're also much easier to
| control with finesse than disc brakes which tend to lock and
| require brake fluid and pads service. In rain though, I'd
| want disc brakes because rim/v-brakes can fade rapidly
| depending on material and coating of the rim.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Back in the day, even on a low-end steel Miyata mountain bike,
| I had to have QR wheel and QR seat post keyed locks because of
| theft. They consisted of an epoxy-coated offset plate with a
| hole at each end and a miniature luggage lock. In general IMO,
| it's not worth having an expensive bike because it's just going
| to get ripped-off and likely lacks significant benefit over a
| middle-market one. (A friend of mine had a $8k USD road bike
| stolen in downtown Mountain View right in front of every
| passerby in the busiest area where cops pass every 10 minutes.)
| Also, the only time I ever forgot to lock my (undersized jacked
| up with very long seat post and handlebar extensions) Miyata in
| the rack at home (apartments) in Davis CA was the very time it
| was stolen.
|
| For dry climates: wax lube. Wet lube is only for rainy climates
| and attracts dust like mad. Chain guard is a must for non-
| leisure riding.
|
| And if you don't like changing tires very often and don't mind
| the extra free exercise of added rolling resistance, kevlar
| armor bands are a must have with green snot slime. Still have
| to carry a vulcanizing patch kit, levers, and a pump because
| goatheads are pure evil.
| wiredfool wrote:
| Meh. There have been Bike Shaped Objects sold at non-bike shops
| forever. Huffy used to be a complete joke of a bike, but in 1988
| the 7-11 team rode "Huffy" frames. (which were really Serottas).
|
| Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them
| aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a
| lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could
| pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change
| the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB
| or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed
| bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did.
|
| Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but
| they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your
| bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you
| just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in.
|
| Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely.
| Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the
| case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur.
|
| I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are
| tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d
| printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are
| tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic
| non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low
| end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for
| everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or
| mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes
| too.
|
| iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.
| fizx wrote:
| I think that's true for e-bikes, but that's perhaps to be
| expected in a newer market.
|
| Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and
| basically everything else was standardized except some bearings.
| All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers
| make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake,
| shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps
| things competitive.
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| Opinionated solution; always buy used never buy electric. There
| are enough steel frames in the world that we probably never need
| to manufacture another one.
| jerlam wrote:
| Unfortunately this isn't a new problem. My 20+ year old bike,
| that doesn't have a single electronic component on it, has a
| single special crankarm bolt because the crankarm is "integrated"
| with the spider, presumably to shave off a few grams. Four normal
| bolts and one special bolt that may be hard to find today.
|
| A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of
| exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits
| are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets
| rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But
| things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when
| they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing
| standards.
| loeg wrote:
| There are many kinds of bottom bracket these days, but like, not
| _that_ many. BSA is still extremely common and it 's looking like
| T47 (which has two variants) will be the other common standard
| going forward. BB30, BB86 exist. Other variants are much less
| common.
|
| Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and
| proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all
| true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of
| this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try
| to generalize.
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