[HN Gopher] Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewis...
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Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary
says
Author : ywvcbk
Score : 15 points
Date : 2024-10-13 07:43 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Interestingly Columbus set sail on the day the Jews were expelled
| from Spain.
| oh_my_goodness wrote:
| The same year, sure. But the same day?
| kamikazeturtles wrote:
| I'd find it hard to believe all the cities in Spain decided
| to expel the Jewish people all on the same day. The
| inquisition began decades earlier so there probably were
| indications something bad was going to happen
| lolinder wrote:
| They're probably referring to the Alhambra Decree [0],
| which _did_ expel all Jews by a set date. That date was the
| end of July, and Columbus sailed on 3 August, so it 's very
| close but not quite the same date.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree
| kamikazeturtles wrote:
| India must've sounded nicer than the Ottoman Empire
| asveikau wrote:
| I thought sephardim scattered into a lot of places, including
| elsewhere in Europe (even places like Amsterdam) and North
| Africa. Not to mention _conversos_ that stayed put.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| >even places like Amsterdam
|
| Especially places like Amsterdam.
|
| That's why they built a giant Synagogue there.
| bitcurious wrote:
| Columbus was famously a devout catholic; his DNA suggests that he
| was of Sephardic Jewish descent, most likely from a family that
| underwent a forced conversion.
| bbor wrote:
| I already posted below, but since you probably won't scroll
| down and I hate to see people get tricked: I would take this
| article with a massive grain of salt. Not "definitely wrong",
| but perhaps "of very dubious origin, making unusually strong
| claims based on unpublished, inconsistently-described
| evidence". For context, the "Columbus was Jewish" assertion is
| part of a broader "Columbus was secretly Spanish/Catalonian"
| fight they've been having for a while (which isn't surprising
| given the region's generally positive recollection of their
| "glory days" of genocide and slavery), as it's supposed to
| preclude him from being Italian.
|
| Besides that, as an American who spent a semester in Spain and
| took a class focused on religious diversity specifically on the
| peninsula: your analysis is definitely possible, but there was
| also plenty of Jewish people practicing in secret throughout
| the reconquista. Thus the inquisition, even! The Reconquista
| took hundreds of years and saw multiple waves of anti-Jewish
| laws throughout the various Christian kingdoms, from taxes to
| restrictions to the famous expulsions, so there was plenty of
| precedent to learn from.
|
| I'd be curious to hear from any actual experts on how the
| Spanish viewed national origin, and whether that played a
| significant role in religious persecution. AFAIK they welcomed
| converts with open arms (especially Muslim ones), which makes
| me even more dubious that Columbus would choose to repeatedly
| claim to be from Italy just to hide his Jewish ancestry. He was
| 100% verifiably a practicing Catholic, isn't that all that
| should have mattered to his peers? But I'm walking pretty blind
| here.
| ywvcbk wrote:
| > AFAIK they welcomed converts with open arms (especially
| Muslim ones),
|
| While that was seemingly true in the 1400s when ex-Jewish
| Conversos had sometimes significant economic and even
| political power. That had changed by the 1500s, antisemitism
| (same applying to Muslim converts) became much more focused
| on race and not just religion.
|
| Conversos and Moriscos were persecuted and discriminated
| culminating in the expulsion of 1609 (which targeted hundreds
| of thousands of people who had technically been Christians
| for the past ~100 years).
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpieza_de_sangre
|
| In some cases it was pretty extreme and not that dissimilar
| to the one-drop rule in the US (and the decentralized pseudo-
| segregation wasn't that dissimilar either).
|
| Descendants of Jewish and Muslim converts were even banned
| from emigrating into the American Colonies a few decades
| after Columbus.
|
| It likely wasn't as bad yet in the 1490s but had Columbus
| Jewish origin (assume that's actually true) been know he
| probably would have faced significant barriers in holding
| political office or even attracting investment for his
| expeditions.
| usehackernews wrote:
| There are indications he may have been raised Jewish, and later
| converted to Catholicism. Or, converted but still close to
| Judaism.
|
| His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492, the
| exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain does
| suggest he may have not converted yet.
|
| Further, It's also known that the family profession was
| weaving, a traditionally Jewish profession at the time and that
| Jewish given names like Abraham and Jacob were common in the
| family of Columbus' mother.
|
| One of the hypothesis from the dna analysis says:
|
| > hypothesis proposes that Columbus was a Jew from the
| Mediterranean port city of Valencia. His obscure early life,
| according to this theory, can be explained by the fact that he
| sought to hide his Jewish background to avoid persecution by
| the fervently Catholic Spanish monarchs.
| lolinder wrote:
| > the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from
| Spain
|
| This came up in another part of the thread, but it wasn't the
| exact date--the decree gave Jews until the end of July [0],
| while August 3 (not second) is the date he sailed.
|
| It's still close enough that it may have been related, but
| it's not the slam dunk that "the exact date" makes it sound
| like it is.
|
| [0] https://www.fau.edu/artsandletters/pjhr/chhre/pdf/hh-
| alhambr...
| ywvcbk wrote:
| Why would anyone ever think that it could have been
| anything but a coincidence?
|
| Who would have sponsored his expedition knowing that
| Columbus would be legally banned from entering the country
| if he was successful? That just seems silly...
| lolinder wrote:
| I think the argument goes that Columbus was a closet Jew
| who scheduled the expedition with symbolic meaning that
| only he would know.
|
| It's definitely a Dan Brown plot, but it's not _entirely_
| inconceivable.
| bitcurious wrote:
| > His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492,
| the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain
| does suggest he may have not converted yet.
|
| This is one of the least compelling pieces of evidence: one
| doesn't set out for a cross-oceanic voyage on a whim. He had
| sponsorship from the Spanish crown and lobbied and prepared
| for years for the journey. His journey was formally
| sanctioned by the the royal family in April of the year he
| left.
| ywvcbk wrote:
| > His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492,
|
| He could have just moved to Italy or the Low Countries?
|
| > does suggest he may have not converted yet.
|
| And he did while he was in the Americas? Why would the
| Castilian crown sponsor an expedition led by a known Jew and
| even make him governor of the newly discovered territories
| (note that in a few decades even converted descendants of
| Jews or Muslims were banned from emigrating to the new world
| after a few decades)
| kamikazeturtles wrote:
| The Spanish inquisition began in the 1470s so it makes sense he
| would hide his ethnicity.
|
| What's really interesting however, is how the same year Columbus
| sailed the ocean blue, 1492, was when the Ottoman Empire accepted
| 60,000 Jewish refugees from Spain.
|
| Columbus must not have been very religious. It would've probably
| been a much smarter decision, in terms of self preservation, to
| move to the Ottoman Empire.
| afavour wrote:
| > Columbus must not have been very religious.
|
| He was incredibly religious. In his Catholicism.
|
| If anything this is just proof that reading too deeply, and
| especially solely, into anyone's DNA history is a mistake.
| Plenty of people have a background unrelated to their lives or
| the way they perceive themselves.
| lolinder wrote:
| Agreed that it's important not to read too much into this
| about Columbus as a person, but if this is true there are
| plenty of interesting things to draw from it. It would
| suggest that he probably came from a family that converted to
| Catholicism (given the time period, probably under duress).
|
| Had his ancestors made a different choice Columbus himself
| may have been expelled from Spain shortly before he sailed on
| August 3.
| someotherperson wrote:
| It adds a wild irony to the story considering he's
| responsible for the expansion of the Spanish and introduced
| Catholicism to an entire continent.
|
| Someone who was punished by the Spanish and forced to convert
| a generation or two ago turns into its champion and spreads
| it elsewhere?
| ywvcbk wrote:
| He and his son would have faced severe discrimination,
| wouldn't even be allowed to hold public office and
| technically his descendants wouldn't even emigrate to the
| Americans had it been publicly known that he was a
| descendant of Jewish converts (regardless of his religious
| views).
|
| Surely that's something the Spanish Crown would have used
| in the courtroom, considering that his descendants were
| engaged in a ~20 year lawsuit against the crown (which they
| won)?
| someotherperson wrote:
| That's assuming he even knew he was ethnically Jewish.
| His strong Catholicism and choosing not to immigrate to
| the Ottoman empire indicates this family history was
| probably withheld from him.
| ywvcbk wrote:
| > He was incredibly religious. In his Catholicism
|
| Possibly as a way to conceal his background? Of course that's
| pure speculation and it wasn't as bad yet until later in the
| the 1500s but Spain became an extremely racist society,
| people who couldn't prove that they weren't descendants of
| Jewish or Muslim converts were often barred from holding
| political office or even testify in court etc.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpieza_de_sangre#:~:text=O.
| ...
| someotherperson wrote:
| The attacks began earlier[0] and many Jews began converting en
| masse. He might not have even known his parents or grandparents
| were Jewish.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_1391
| ywvcbk wrote:
| > r, is how the same year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 1492,
|
| How could that be related in any way? Presumably his investors
| did hope he would return and be allowed to enter the country?
|
| > Columbus must not have been very religious
|
| He was. As far as we can tell he was a very devout Catholic.
| Even if he had some Jewish origin (e.g. his grand/great
| grandparents were converts) that must have been a closely
| concealed secret and certainly not something that was publicly
| known.
| stelliosk wrote:
| There is a theory he was from the Greek island of Chios.
|
| "In 1982, Ruth Durlacher hypothesised that Chios was Christopher
| Columbus's birthplace.[64] Columbus himself said he was from the
| Republic of Genoa, which included the island of Chios at the
| time. Columbus was friendly with a number of Chian Genoese
| families, referenced Chios in his writings and used the Greek
| language for some of his notes.[65] 'Columbus' remains a common
| surname on Chios. Other common Greek spellings are: Kouloumbis
| and Couloumbis."
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios
|
| "A New Theory Clarifying the Identity OF Christopher Columbus: A
| Byzantine Prince from Chios, Greece. by Ruth G Durlacher-Wolper
| 1982(Published by The New World Museum, San Salvador, Bahamas"
|
| https://www.geraceresearchcentre.com/pdfs/1stColumbus/13_Dur...
| fsckboy wrote:
| technical who-is-a-Jew type question, which is thoroughly
| intertwingled with European history: the Jewish diaspora were
| only the diaspora after they were kicked out of Israel by the
| Romans (in something like 70AD), and even then, only after they
| maintained their identity in the diaspora (c.f. the majority of
| other conquered peoples who did not maintain an independent
| identity)
|
| Before that they were just the Jews, which was more of a
| nationality than anything else (a nationality that had a covenant
| with their God, but many nationalities at that time had such).
|
| "Sephardic Jew" is a term most used to describe Jews who were
| kicked out of the Iberian peninsula during the Spanish
| Inquisition and Reconquista. The Iberian peninsula had had a
| thorough conquering by Muslims until the euro-christian
| reconquering, the Reconquista, wherein the last of the Muslims
| were kicked out, and then the Jews too for good measure, which
| kicking out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus
| sailed for the East (by going west).
|
| Other diaspora Jews lived in Muslim lands and are known as
| Mizrahi Jews (Mizrahi being some form of the word for Egypt which
| is also the word for East iirc)
|
| Was there some distinction (theological or genetic) between
| Miszrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews before they
| were driven out of Spain?
|
| And Columbus was born in Genoa (his house is still there) and so,
| was he one of these types of Jews or are the different typenames
| just what we call them today?
| ywvcbk wrote:
| > out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus sailed
| for the East (by going west).
|
| Which is notable why exactly? Surely both Columbus and his
| investors were hoping to return.
|
| Who would give all that money to a descendant of Jewish
| converts let alone someone who might have been affected by the
| expulsion decree directly?
|
| Columbus might have had Jewish ancestors a few generations back
| but I don't think we can conclude anything else based on these
| findings. Especially not that he or his parents were actually
| practicing Jews.
| p3rls wrote:
| A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew
| word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons
| of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe.
|
| However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's
| safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for
| Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews
| immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (before
| the expulsion talked about in this thread) and have fully
| assimilated into the Sephardic tradition.
| bbor wrote:
| ...I'm a little suspicious. Spain, Portugal, and Italy have been
| fighting fiercely to claim cultural credit for Columbus for my
| whole life (hundreds of years, even?) and some of the quotes in
| this article display some bias on the sides of the researchers.
| It's possibly a result of me using Firefox autotranslate out of
| laziness, but: The theory of the Colombo
| Cristoforo, born in Genoa, raised in Genoa, educated in Genoa, is
| false because all the very important historians of Italy have
| written black on white that it is impossible for this our Colombo
| to be Jewish. There is a total incompatibility...
|
| But then, between 10,000 and 15,000 [Jewish
| people lived in] the Italian peninsula [at the time].
|
| Obviously it's an interesting point, but the certainty of the
| first statement set off alarm bells for me. Especially because
| they're placing his origin in Aragon, specifically; the Spanish
| are very nationalist, but the Catalonians are even more
| nationalist as a way to fight back. Very, very far from damning,
| but certainly makes these surprising claims a little suspicious.
|
| In terms of critical commentary, seemingly there is some:
| https://elpais.com/ciencia/2024-10-12/el-show-del-adn-de-cri...
|
| It's pointed out that although the professor that did this DNA
| study is indeed an academic[1] specializing in the relevant field
| --which cannot be said of the main proponent, who appears to be a
| super biased enthusiast [2][3][4]--he hasn't actually published
| any of these findings yet, instead choosing to announce them via
| his own "thriller" TV show. Right off the bat, that's the
| absolute opposite of what a typical scientist would do with
| absurdly controversial findings -- and apparently this is the
| same pattern he's followed since 2005 on this topic, publishing
| no data of any kind in actual journals, just "announcing" various
| findings.
|
| He does say _" The scientific results, he says, will be presented
| at a press conference probably at the end of November"_, but...
| that's sus af, as the kids say.
|
| Beyond that, the DNA analysis itself seems to be in doubt:
| After the 2003 exhumation, no DNA could be extracted from the
| bones, Bottle says. The anthropologist says he stopped
| collaborating with the research team after those first analyses
| and has not wanted to participate anymore. Carracedo
| recalls that the DNA that came to him was tremendously degraded
| and later disassociated from the project. He says he won't give
| his opinion on Lorente's new results until there is a serious
| scientific study published in a specialized journal.
|
| The most damning evidence is non-circumstancial/character-based,
| of course, and it's what originally had me scratching my head in
| doubt: In any case, possessing a gene,
| haplogroup, or haplotype associated with Jewish or Sephardic
| ancestry does not challenge the historical sources that support
| Columbus' birthplace in Genoa. Furthermore, it provides no
| information about the religious beliefs held by Columbus' close
| relatives (parents, grandparents, etc.), the researcher
| emphasizes... there is no Y chromosome that can be defined
| exclusively as Jewish-sephary, Chambers argues. Even if the total
| DNA of an individual was recovered, it would still be impossible
| to reach definitive conclusions about its exact geographical
| origin.
|
| In other words: that's not really how genetics works...
|
| Thanks for sharing OP, this was a fascinating little dive. I, for
| one, will stick with the consensus view that this idiotic monster
| of a person was from Italy, until this researcher publishes some
| peer-reviewed results!
|
| [1]
| https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=uZXz5-sAAAAJ...
|
| [2] He hasn't published basically anything:
| https://www.scopus.com/authid/detail.uri?authorId=1462143920...
|
| [3] Here's some of his (English!) writing, which IMO speaks for
| itself:
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364304815_COLUMBUS_...
|
| [4] ...and this book title gives away the game, which is probably
| why it isn't mentioned in the linked article:
| https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-la-catalanitat-de-colom/9...
| jorgemendes wrote:
| Well, just the best fit for being presented in the Spanish
| national day but, it's more complicated than that...of course.
| What was presented was not science.
|
| https://elpais.com/ciencia/2024-10-12/el-show-del-adn-de-cri...
| profsummergig wrote:
| > "The DNA indicates that Christopher Columbus's origin lay in
| the western Mediterranean," said the researcher. "If there
| weren't Jews in Genoa in the 15th century, the likelihood that he
| was from there is minimal. Neither was there a big Jewish
| presence in the rest of the Italian peninsula, which makes things
| very tenuous."
|
| Does anyone else think that this is a poorly argued piece?
|
| Being Jewish, and having some Jewish DNA: are they the same
| thing? Is it not possible that many many people in Genoa could
| have had Jewish ancestors? After all, most of Jesus's disciples
| were Jewish (please correct me if I'm wrong).
| dumbo-octopus wrote:
| All of Jesus's original disciples were Jewish.
|
| And you can be certainly be Jewish without having Jewish DNA,
| but there's some controversy as to whether the reverse is true.
| MathMonkeyMan wrote:
| David Cross has a funny [bit][1] about whether the reverse is
| true.
|
| [1]: https://youtu.be/z09So1j4kpk?t=378
| endtime wrote:
| > Being Jewish, and having some Jewish DNA: are they the same
| thing?
|
| Judaism is based on matrilineal descent, so depending on where
| the DNA comes from, yes.
| tlogan wrote:
| I'm really confused by this argument. How does it account for
| the Apostle Paul?
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Oops.
|
| There go the big Columbus Day celebrations, sponsored by Italian-
| American societies.
| chipdart wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > "Unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, we can't
| really evaluate what was in the documentary because they offered
| no data from the analysis whatsoever," Antonio Alonso, a
| geneticist and former director of Spain's National Institute of
| Toxicology and Forensic Sciences told El Pais.
|
| So, baseless speculation used by the Spanish regime to claim
| Christopher Columbus as Spanish during the Spanish national day?
|
| The funny part is that none of this matters for things other than
| nationalist talking points.
| gnabgib wrote:
| Discussion (50 points, 22 hours ago, 46 conments)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41821939
| pimlottc wrote:
| The previous discussion was from before the full tests results
| were released.
| gnabgib wrote:
| This article is also from before the release of any test
| results: "Normally, you send your article to
| a scientific journal," he told El Pais. "An editor is then
| assigned to the piece and at least three independent
| reviewers examine the work and decide whether it's
| scientifically valid or not. If it is, it gets published and
| so the rest of the scientific community can say whether they
| agree with it or not.
| gnabgib wrote:
| Discussion (50 points, 22 hours ago, 46 conments)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41821939
| woodpanel wrote:
| > Neither was there a big Jewish presence in the rest of the
| Italian peninsula
|
| Wait, so the name ,,ghetto" wasn't contrived there?
|
| Snark aside, is there any proof or qualification delivered with
| that quite important yet ambiguous side node, that there
| supposedly wasn't any significant jewish presence in Italy?
| adastra22 wrote:
| Depends on how you define a "big population," no? Prior to 1492
| a lot of Jews had been driven out of Italy, and the remaining
| communities were quite small.
|
| Italian city states took in a lot of Jewish refugees from Spain
| after the 1492 expulsion. The first ghetto was in 1516. But
| that doesn't line up with Columbus' chronology.
| playingalong wrote:
| > acknowledged that he had not been able to pinpoint Columbus's
| place of birth
|
| Nit pick.
|
| I don't know it for sure, but if he was able to meet a king and a
| queen eventually, I assume he came from a wealthy family.
|
| For wealthy families at that time, it wouldn't be an issue to
| travel. Especially if you turn out to be the most known traveler
| in human's history.
|
| Thus, I fail to see how come we can even think of establishing
| the place of birth based on DNA. A likely area where his family
| came from - sure. But POB?
| 77pt77 wrote:
| He was probably a portuguese jew or nobleman.
|
| This place is a a good hint:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba,_Portugal
|
| A place called Cuba in Portugal that predates the arrival to the
| new world by centuries.
|
| These ideas have been floating around for a long time:
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2018/01/19/dn...
| cjbenedikt wrote:
| Hasn't been peer reviewed nor published yet. Fellow accademics
| caution.
| cjbenedikt wrote:
| Unpublished, not peer reviewed. Some skeptik academics.
| gizajob wrote:
| a.k.a an Italian
| beardyw wrote:
| The thing is that as our number of ancestors expands going back,
| the gene pool gets ever smaller. Historically we are all related
| in the end.
| tdeck wrote:
| Just wanted to drop the fact that there seems to be a historical
| consensus that isn't represented in these comments
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher...
| dang wrote:
| Recent and related:
|
| _DNA study confirms Christopher Columbus's remains are entombed
| in Seville_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41821939 - Oct
| 2024 (66 comments)
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