[HN Gopher] Turkish language has a gossip tense
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Turkish language has a gossip tense
        
       Author : sedatk
       Score  : 120 points
       Date   : 2024-10-09 22:34 UTC (3 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (twitter.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
        
       | brudgers wrote:
       | So does English, https://www.ef.edu/english-resources/english-
       | grammar/tense-c...
        
         | namaria wrote:
         | Not the same thing. Reporting speech by saying 'subject said
         | (...) [past tense verb] (...)' is not specific to English and
         | doesn't carry the same nuance as the tweet implies this Turkish
         | 'gossip' tense carries.
        
           | brudgers wrote:
           | Different languages convey nuance with different mechanics.
           | The only reason an English speaker would say "He said he
           | would be at the airport" is to convey nuance.
           | 
           | + _He_ said he would be at the airport
           | 
           | + He _said_ he would be at the airport
           | 
           | + He said he _would be_ at the airport
           | 
           | + He said he would be at the _airport_
        
             | namaria wrote:
             | Fair enough, but the interesting tidbit is that in Turkish
             | you can add a verb ending that implies reportedness and
             | that's interesting in itself and not present in English.
        
               | brudgers wrote:
               | Verb tense is distinct from conjugation (and semantics
               | are a whole different matter altogether). Careful
               | consideration doesnt make trending tweets.
        
               | sedatk wrote:
               | Also, it's not optional. Unless you use "gossip tense" or
               | explicitly state that it's hearsay, it must be factual.
               | There's no ambiguity unlike English.
        
         | exac wrote:
         | No, you are misunderstanding if you think that is a "gossip
         | tense".
        
       | farmeroy wrote:
       | Turkish is one of my favorite languages I've learned, and one of
       | the best languages for a language learner. I think it's great for
       | learners for two reasons: first of all, the grammar and
       | orthography is extremely regular, and probably more importantly
       | is that in my experience turkish speaking people are more than
       | happy to engage is extended small talk about anything, are
       | extremely eager to understand you despite your horrible turkish,
       | and are almost always impressed by any level of effort. This is
       | in terrible contrast to french or german, where not only does the
       | grammar or spelling horrify, but people are almost unwilling to
       | understand your pitiful efforts :(
        
         | rich_sasha wrote:
         | I feel your pain!
         | 
         | I'm considering learning either Turkish or Arabic, for fun (as
         | phonetically-spelled non-Indoeuropean languages), do you have a
         | comparison with Arabic? I know exactly what you mean re French
         | and German...
        
           | farmeroy wrote:
           | I don't know any Arabic unfortunately. They are completely
           | different language families with only slight overlap in
           | vocabulary, but beyond that I can't make a comparison. I
           | would say it probably depends on what your language learning
           | goals are, but turkish is super fun to learn and speak, and
           | its super fun to travel in turkey or just to hang out in
           | istanbul. You might also surprise yourself speaking turkish
           | in China one day with some Xinjiang people as well :D
        
             | geoka9 wrote:
             | To add, knowledge of Turkish will also make it easier to
             | converse in Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and a
             | bunch of other countries in the region.
        
               | davidzweig wrote:
               | Also many Iranians speak 'Turk' and understand Turkish
               | from watching Turkish telenovelas on satellite TV.
        
               | geoka9 wrote:
               | Good point! Although, what they call 'Turk' is actually
               | Azeri :) (Part of the historical Azerbaijan is in Iran.)
        
               | rich_sasha wrote:
               | How very interesting, I understand Turkish and Farsi are
               | totally unrelated (Turkic and Indo-European language
               | families).
        
               | rvense wrote:
               | More than half of the Iranian population belong to an
               | ethnic minority, and the biggest by far is the Turkish
               | speaking one, the Azeri - it's something like 1/3 of the
               | population as far as I remember. I don't know if non-
               | Azeri learn Turkish from TV, but for a lot of Iranians
               | it's simply their first language.
        
               | fakedang wrote:
               | To add to that, I learnt to basic-speak the now extinct
               | language of Chagatai, because I know Turkish.
               | 
               | Turkish is also mutually intelligible with Uzbek and
               | Kazakh - it's basically like English and Dutch.
               | 
               | Edit:- Learning Chagatai practically let's you speak
               | Kazakh and Uzbek partway. Tried it in both countries,
               | might work in other places like Kyrgyzstan and
               | Turkmenistan too. :)
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | For the speakers of European languages it is usually quite
           | difficult to learn to pronounce correctly some of the sounds
           | of Arabic. Turkish does not have any sounds hard to pronounce
           | for Europeans.
           | 
           | The Indo-European languages and the Afro-Asiatic, including
           | the Semitic languages like Arabic, are distinguished from
           | most languages of the world by having much more irregular
           | grammars, of the kind that was traditionally named
           | "inflected".
           | 
           | Amazingly, while the more irregular grammars of the
           | "inflected" languages are better seen as a bug and not as a
           | feature, in the past the European scholars believed that such
           | grammars are a sign of superiority of the Indo-European and
           | Semitic languages, even if it is much easier to argue in
           | favor of an opposite point of view.
           | 
           | In conclusion, I believe that for a speaker of European
           | languages it is much easier to learn Turkish, due to easier
           | pronunciation and more regular grammar.
           | 
           | Nevertheless, when there is no special reason for learning
           | either of the languages, Modern Standard Arabic or Classical
           | Arabic are more interesting languages from a historical point
           | of view, enabling the understanding of many facts about the
           | old Arabic literature or pertaining to the related Semitic
           | languages that have been very important in the Ancient World
           | or about the origins of the Greek and Latin alphabets
           | (Standard Arabic has a conservative phonology and it still
           | distinguishes most of the sounds for which the oldest Semitic
           | alphabet has been created, which has later evolved into the
           | simplified Phoenician alphabet, from which the Greek, Aramaic
           | and Hebrew alphabets have been derived).
        
             | farmeroy wrote:
             | It would probably be fun to read some original mathematical
             | texts in arabic if you could. I would say that since modern
             | turkish didn't come into being until the founding of the
             | republic, you really do lose the historical context. I
             | would love to learn ottoman turkish one day...
        
               | andro_dev wrote:
               | Actually there is no such thing as Ottoman Turkish, it is
               | still Turkish with heavily borrowed phrases. It is not a
               | distinct language. You won't have any hard time
               | understanding the spoken Turkish in Anatolia of that
               | time. So called Ottoman Turkish was mostly limited to the
               | government and literature use. Here is a recording of
               | "Ottoman Turkish" from that time.
               | 
               | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fmNl4gcufBU&pp=ygU0RXNraSBr
               | YXl...
        
               | farmeroy wrote:
               | I'm too out of practice to really engage at this level.
               | But actually, I meant I would like to learn the Ottoman
               | Turkish of government and literature. I obviously can't
               | go back in time and converse with the Anatolian turks and
               | if I could, I might prefer to also have some Greek and
               | Armenian in my toolbox...
        
           | blacksmith_tb wrote:
           | I took three years of Arabic as an undergrad, it's an
           | interesting language to study, but needing to learn the
           | alphabet will make it more difficult than Turkish, I would
           | say. Which might be fine if you're looking for a challenge!
        
         | readthenotes1 wrote:
         | "This is in terrible contrast to french "
         | 
         | I guess I got lucky in France then because they felt so sorry
         | for me after my attempts at french they would reply in english
        
           | jcul wrote:
           | That's kind of the problem though, if you are trying to learn
           | and people just switch to English it's difficult to make
           | progress.
           | 
           | I've had situations in France where I ended up having one
           | side of the conversation in French and one in English!
        
             | vidarh wrote:
             | Getting out of the big cities tends to help. Or even just
             | out of the tourist area. The last time I went to Nice, for
             | example, I found it hilarious that within Carre d'Or,
             | people would switch to English when I showed the slightest
             | hesitation with my French, or the first time I made an
             | error (so, quickly). But just a few steps into Liberation,
             | minutes walk away, we kept coming across shop staff that
             | kept speaking French no matter what horrible crimes I
             | committed against their language...
        
             | dhruvrajvanshi wrote:
             | It's a tricky situation as a language learner. On the one
             | hand, you've got to be polite, trying to converse with
             | people in their native language, on the other, you don't
             | want to waste their time just for your own language
             | learning goals.
             | 
             | I live in Germany and I always start conversations in
             | German, but if it becomes clear that their English is much
             | better than my German, I switch to English to spare them of
             | the burden. It's not the barista's job to indulge me in my
             | learning pursuits :)
        
             | 082349872349872 wrote:
             | > _one side of the conversation in French and one in
             | English!_
             | 
             | This is actually an effective way for two people to
             | practise each others' language, and is adjustable according
             | to aptitudes:
             | 
             | Easy mode: each person speaks their own L1
             | 
             | Hard mode: each person speaks the other's L1
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | As someone that has lived in French and German speaking
         | countries and nowadays speaks both fluently, I would assert
         | usually in French speaking countries there is the cultural
         | issue of speaking directly in English versus trying a very
         | basic "Parlez vous Anglais?" as initial question.
         | 
         | Whereas in German speaking countries I only had any issues in
         | reaching out to technicians for house repairs.
         | 
         | However if we insist learning French and German, regardless how
         | bad it might feel like during initial efforts, eventually it
         | will improve good enough to work on those languages.
        
           | petesergeant wrote:
           | > there is the cultural issue of speaking directly in English
           | versus trying a very basic "Parlez vous Anglais?" as initial
           | question
           | 
           | In my experience in the Netherlands you should definitely
           | just start speaking English to people, as asking someone if
           | they speak English is a bit like asking if they can read
        
             | pjmlp wrote:
             | As mentioned, it is a cultural thing.
        
             | Scarblac wrote:
             | Yes, we much prefer speaking English over having to endure
             | slow, broken Dutch.
        
               | WJW wrote:
               | Yes we do, but there's a bit of nuance to it. Most Dutch
               | people will happily oblige to speak slowly (within
               | reason) if you preface any conversation with a quick "I'm
               | trying to learn Dutch properly", and will appreciate the
               | effort.
               | 
               | Knowing the language will definitely help people fit in
               | better as many conversations amongst the Dutch will still
               | be in Dutch and also most signage and other written texts
               | will obviously also be in Dutch.
        
           | vidarh wrote:
           | Yeah, the difference in France if you try vs. don't try can
           | be dramatic. My first school trip to France with my French
           | class, one of the girls in my class tried asking for
           | something in a small shop in Paris in English. The entire
           | shop went quiet, until she tried again in French whereon they
           | immediately spoke English to her.
           | 
           | Conversely, I went into a small shop, tried my broken French,
           | and asked the shopkeeper if he spoke English after a failed
           | attempt at making him understand me. He didn't, but dragged
           | me into the street and started stopping random people until
           | he found someone who could help translate.
           | 
           | While purely anecdotal, those extremes seem fairly common
           | even today, and frankly I get it - it'd annoy me to if people
           | don't even make a perfunctory attempt. Of course the
           | stereotype of certain types of tourists doesn't help.
           | 
           | Apart from that, I think people in general are far more
           | likely to feel ok about trying to express themselves in your
           | language if you've made a fool of yourself in their language
           | first...
        
         | makmanalp wrote:
         | The thing about Turkish is that the grammar is very forgiving
         | to mistakes while preserving meaning: word order can be
         | leveraged for subtle emphasis but pretty much doesn't matter
         | for general meaning. Conjugations are pretty much always
         | standard. There is a "correct" ordering for the suffixes but
         | the meaning is generally obvious even without them. If you mess
         | up the vowel harmony it just sounds odd but again the meaning
         | is clear. You can often omit articles because the suffixes
         | mirror them. It's also a phonetic language - there's no "sounds
         | different at the end of the word" etc.
         | 
         | It's really the perfect language to pick up on a visit even ...
         | except the vocabulary doesn't resemble anything that most of
         | the rest of the world speaks. There's lots of loanwords from
         | farsi, arabic, french and english of course but beyond that and
         | speakers of other Turkic languages, it's struggle for most
         | people.
         | 
         | But yes, it's true that we're often over the moon that someone
         | put in the effort to speak it :-)
        
         | psychoslave wrote:
         | Desole, nous avons nous meme ete eleve dans une demarche visant
         | a systematiquement developper un sentiment de culpabilite pour
         | chaque ecart a la sacrocainte norme langagiere promu par une
         | bande de reactionnaires sans competences linguistiques qui se
         | prennent pour les defenseurs de la langue dont ils fommentent
         | la sclerose.
        
         | k__ wrote:
         | As a German speaker, I understand those issues.
         | 
         | I currently learn Spanish, and I'm always amused by how regular
         | everything is.
         | 
         | In German, words constantly get split up and change positions
         | in the sentences when you say something slightly different.
         | 
         | Du sprichst Deutsch.
         | 
         | Sprichst du Deutsch?
         | 
         | Vs
         | 
         | Hablas Espanol.
         | 
         | ?Hablas Espanol?
         | 
         | Also, most Germans don't like speaking German with people who
         | don't speak it well. Probably, because subtle errors can change
         | the whole meaning.
         | 
         | For most Germans it's easier to speak English with foreigners
         | who speak better English than German.
        
           | farmeroy wrote:
           | Yeah it took me until B2 or so before I could get any Germans
           | to really engage with me in German. My son grew up there and
           | his German was quite good while we lived there, and even when
           | I reached C1 he was perpetually ashamed of my accent and all
           | of my grammatical errors. Of course, now that it's been some
           | time since we've lived there my German has only gotten worse
           | and he suffers even more when I try to practice
        
           | seszett wrote:
           | And in French...
           | 
           | Tu parles francais
           | 
           | Tu parles francais ?
           | 
           | Parles-tu francais ?
           | 
           | Est-ce-que tu parles francais ?
           | 
           | I guess it's the best of both worlds.
           | 
           | The French like to hear foreigners speak French though,
           | they're just terrible at understanding accents they don't
           | hear often and terrible at adjusting their speech so the
           | other person understands them. And too self conscious about
           | their English accent to speak English.
        
             | k__ wrote:
             | I only heard bad things about the French and their
             | language, but I never met a unfriendly french person.
             | 
             | Don't know where this prejudice comes from.
        
       | judicious wrote:
       | Something like this occurs cross-linguistically:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidentiality
       | 
       | Turkish has some evidentiality.
        
       | politelemon wrote:
       | This reddit thread casts better light on it.
       | 
       | https://www.reddit.com/r/turkish/comments/1dgkxme/does_turki...
        
       | idlewords wrote:
       | This is not a tense but a grammatical mood, it's called the
       | inferential mood. A bunch of languages have it to distinguish
       | eyewitness accounts from reported speech.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferential_mood
       | 
       | Verb tense has to do with an action's relationship to time, mood
       | expresses the speaker's relationship and attitude to the action.
       | English is pretty low on moods (indicative, imperative,
       | subjunctive), while other languages have a more fun arsenal.
        
         | 082349872349872 wrote:
         | Turkish also has an imprecative mood, specifically for wishing
         | ill on third parties:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprecative_mood
         | 
         | On the other hand, a mood for well-wishing occurs in Sanskrit:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedictive [EDIT: and Quenya?
         | https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-1905928135.html ]
         | 
         | On the gripping hand, AAVE actually has a richer tense-aspect-
         | mood inventory than Standard American English:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En...
         | 
         | [now I wonder what language Galadriel's ring speech was
         | supposed to have been in, and whether it had a commissive
         | mood?]
        
           | shawndrost wrote:
           | > Imprecative retorts in English
           | 
           | > While not a mood in English, expressions like _like hell it
           | is_ or _the fuck you are_ are imprecative retorts. These
           | consist of an expletive + a personal pronoun subject + an
           | auxiliary verb.
        
             | Sharlin wrote:
             | There's a similar quasi-mood in colloquial Finnish,
             | humorously called "aggressive":
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_mood
        
           | appplication wrote:
           | This was a fun and informative comment, thank you for
           | sharing.
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | It is a tense. It's literally taught as "learned past tense" in
         | Turkish schools. It's similar to present perfect tense of
         | English.
        
           | yongjik wrote:
           | In English, school-taught grammar is often wildly different
           | from modern linguists' view. For example, while traditional
           | English grammar has no less than 12 tenses, linguists
           | consider it to only have two tenses: past or present. The
           | remaining differences don't really behave like tense.
           | 
           | I could imagine something similar happening in Turkish.
        
             | sedatk wrote:
             | Let me put it this way: it's not less of a tense than
             | present perfect tense in English. They signify the time in
             | a similar way.
        
               | hashmush wrote:
               | Right, because "present" is the tense here and "perfect"
               | the aspect.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_perfect
        
               | sedatk wrote:
               | Ok, how is that different than "learned"/"reported" being
               | the aspect and "past" being the tense in Turkish?
        
               | amaccuish wrote:
               | As the other commenter said, perfect is the aspect, so
               | the internal structure of an event, very important e.g.
               | in Slavic languages. Your confusion leaves the door open
               | to doubt on your actual knowledge of linguistics.
        
           | rvense wrote:
           | What qualifies as a tense or not depends on your definitions
           | of the term. Different linguists and traditions will have
           | different standards and what is taught in school is often not
           | the terminology used in scientific description - it's
           | actually very common for school teachers to teach things that
           | any linguist would think was downright wrong. But terminology
           | is a choice, not something where it really makes sense to say
           | "is" or "is not", the question is how clear does your
           | description end up. (And as always, when you argue about
           | whether or not something is an X, you're not so much talking
           | about the thing as you're talking about the definition of the
           | category X.)
           | 
           | I studied Middle Eastern languages (though mostly Arabic and
           | Persian) and linguistics at a university in northern Europe,
           | and we would treat tense, aspect, and mood as different
           | categories. Often they are distinct and verbs are conjugated
           | both for time and e.g. evidentiality and thus it is fruitful
           | to have two categories. I think this is the case for Turkish,
           | e.g. see how Wikipedia lists the conjugations[0] here as a
           | two-dimensional system. The article uses the term tense
           | (explicitly 'for simplicity'), but I think it makes sense to
           | have different names for the different categories - so tense
           | would refer to the rows in that schema, and mood would refer
           | to the columns.
           | 
           | [0]
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language#Verb_tenses
        
             | sedatk wrote:
             | Sure, I don't disagree that it has multi-dimensionality in
             | terms of semantics. But, it signifies time. When you use
             | "gossip tense" on a verb by itself, it always signifies
             | that something happened in the past, there is no ambiguity
             | about it. How is that this kind of unmistakable
             | representation of time escapes from being a tense is a
             | mystery to me. I'd love to be corrected if I'm missing
             | anything.
        
           | amaccuish wrote:
           | What "Turkish schools" call it is irrelevant, it adds
           | "colour" to an event. Just because the events happen to be in
           | the past, does not make the Inferential Mood a tense. An
           | event can be in the past but factual.
        
         | keybored wrote:
         | Apparently a lot of Buddhist texts start (in English) with "So
         | it has been told to me".
        
           | contingencies wrote:
           | IIRC in Buddhism not lying is emphasised as one aspect of
           | 'right speech', other requirements being those such as non-
           | divisiveness, etc. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma
           | /sacca/sacca4/samm... There is also a record of Buddha
           | discussing the value of ideas based upon personal experience
           | rather than blindly accepting them from others.
           | https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_66.html
           | 
           | Modern Chinese uses "tingshuo" Ting Shuo  (Ting Shuo )
           | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%81%BD%E8%AA%AA
           | 
           | Internet uses IIRC? ;)
        
           | mtalantikite wrote:
           | Or also: "Thus have I heard".
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thus_have_I_heard
        
       | therein wrote:
       | It does indeed. And the author of this post is the founder of
       | EksiSozluk. Hi Sedat. :)
       | 
       | Because of this tense, I often find myself prefixing my sentences
       | with "as far as I have heard".
        
       | jayd16 wrote:
       | What tense do they use in news or something you're fairly certain
       | is fact but you didn't witness it yourself?
        
         | teractiveodular wrote:
         | Wikipedia states that they use the "normal" (not
         | inferential/gossip) mood, because otherwise it could be taken
         | as a value judgement in some contexts.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferential_mood
        
         | oguzcana wrote:
         | You still use this tense if you are just reporting what you
         | heard on news. What matters is that you have not witnessed it,
         | just talking about what you heard on news. "There was an
         | accident." "Kaza ol _mus_ " (the alleged gossip tense).
         | 
         | If you want to emphasize something matter of factly, you might
         | use the normal past tense (kaza ol _du_ ) but that might imply
         | you seen it yourself, you you might get asked if you were
         | actually there.
         | 
         | In something like a history book, past events usually mentioned
         | by a combination of this reported speech and past tense of the
         | "do" verb: "Kaza ol _mustur_ "
         | 
         | To sum up, it is not specifically a gossip tense. If you were
         | not there, even if you are certain, you use reported version.
        
         | darkhorn wrote:
         | In the news they use "known past tense", like "gel-di". The
         | article above mentiones "learned past tense", like "gel-mis".
        
       | fph wrote:
       | Isn't this also how the subjunctive is used in German? News
       | reports usually are in Konjuntiv I as a form of indirect speech.
        
       | kleton wrote:
       | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-mi%C5%9F#Turkish
        
       | madcaptenor wrote:
       | So is this HN post gossip about the gossip tense?
        
       | un1970ix wrote:
       | I learned French because I moved to another country, and I was
       | learning verb conjugations by regularly looking at the (very
       | long) conjugation table. One day I just randomly looked at the
       | table of verb conjugations in my mother tongue, Turkish, and I
       | couldn't believe it, it's many times longer than the one in
       | French! The fact that there are so many things I use in daily
       | life without much effort has shown me how wonderfully the brain
       | works.
        
         | BiteCode_dev wrote:
         | Note that French does have a tense for gossip.
         | 
         | You can say: julie aurait couche avec pierre hier, meaning
         | julie allegedly selpt with pierre yesterday.
         | 
         | But it's not a cultural thing to use it outside of tv or books.
        
           | psychoslave wrote:
           | Il parait que quelqu'un voudrait faire croire que ce genre de
           | phrase n'est employe que dans des oeuvres litteraires et
           | televisuelles. :)
        
             | cryptonector wrote:
             | Ce quoi on dirait n'est pas vrai du tout.
        
           | jfengel wrote:
           | French learner here: I read that as "Julie would have slept
           | with Pierre yesterday." I take it there's some mood subtlety
           | I'm missing?
        
             | un1970ix wrote:
             | What you say is grammatically correct. But if you want to
             | find out whether it implies gossip or past conditional, you
             | need to look at the context.
        
             | cryptonector wrote:
             | Context. Or even the lack thereof. In this case the use of
             | the conditional implies an unstated condition, the "if I'm
             | right about it" condition.
             | 
             | This is more idiomatic than grammatical. It's the same in
             | Spanish. In English we don't have this sort of idiom, so
             | that phrase doesn't translate very well.
        
           | Scarblac wrote:
           | Now that you say this, the exact same thing is used in Dutch
           | to indicate something is a rumour.
           | 
           | Ze zouden met elkaar naar bed zijn geweest.
        
         | joshdavham wrote:
         | Yeah! Turkish is a very agglutinative language, much more than
         | languages like English or French. This makes Turkish richly
         | packed with meaning but also very complex.
        
       | sinkasapa wrote:
       | It is called evidentiality. It doesn't have any direct
       | relationship to time, as one would expect with a tense. Southern
       | Quechua has a reported event evidential affix as well. A friend
       | who is a speaker of Quechua was once horrified, hearing that a
       | man was going to be given a life sentence for murder in Bolivia.
       | They played a portion of his confession over the radio, and the
       | accused man used the reported event evidential through the
       | entirety. Literally, saying that all his words were second hand,
       | dubious information. To my friend, the implication was that he
       | was saying what the police had told him to say. Apparently, those
       | judging the case were not aware of the subtlety, and it did not
       | come through in the Spanish translation of the confession,
       | resulting in a conviction. Whatever the facts of the case were in
       | the end, what is interesting is that for Quechua speakers like my
       | friend, due to the use of the reported event evidential, there
       | was no confession, even though all of the events of a murder were
       | stated in the first person.
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | It is a tense in Turkish though.
        
       | fancymcpoopoo wrote:
       | or so you've heard
        
       | johnthewise wrote:
       | You can also exaggrate/repeat it to convey that you don't
       | actually believe it.
       | 
       | "O gelmis" - "He/she (allegedly) came. "O gelmismis" " He/she
       | (allegedly) came(but its bs).
        
       | teractiveodular wrote:
       | The closest equivalent in English is scare quotes. Works in
       | spoken contexts too, just do finger quotes and change intonation
       | a bit.
       | 
       | You can use quotes neutrally: John says "the nuclear waste is
       | totally safe".
       | 
       | Or you can use them to cast subtle shade: John says the nuclear
       | waste is "totally safe".
        
       | Obscurity4340 wrote:
       | > Geber-esi! die.like.a.dog-impr.3sg "May he die like a dog!"
       | 
       | So thats where Trump gets his "like a dog" comparison he loves to
       | whip out
        
       | rdist wrote:
       | Can we get this applied to print, broadcast and cable news
       | programs?
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | Ironically, it's not used in journalistic contexts in Turkish.
         | It would seem amateurish if it were, like they weren't doing
         | their jobs properly.
        
         | 082349872349872 wrote:
         | > _"L 'histoire est une suite de mensonges sur lesquels on est
         | d'accord."_ --NB
         | 
         | ("History is a bunch of lies upon which we all agree")
        
       | joecool1029 wrote:
       | https://nitter.poast.org/esesci/status/1843769276471349698
       | 
       | (so you can view the thread without a login)
        
       | darkhorn wrote:
       | For first time I hear it as "gossip tense". Actually it is "a
       | tense that you did not witness yourself" or officially "learned
       | past tense".
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | Yes, I coined the term myself (as I mention it later in the
         | thread) because I thought it explained its function better.
         | This was the thread that I first used it:
         | https://x.com/esesci/status/1666152424564719639
         | 
         | Now that I looked for it, others apparently came up with the
         | same name for it before me. I think, that only validates its
         | how apt it is :)
        
       | svilen_dobrev wrote:
       | Bulgarian has even more of these.. like whether one
       | believes/trusts in what sh/e is (quoting of) being said (by
       | someone else), and the like - "Dubitative" forms..
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_verbs
        
       | nickjj wrote:
       | I know very little about speaking Turkish but one interesting
       | thing I learned recently is there's a different word for aunt and
       | uncle depending on if it's your mom or dad's side.
        
         | incognito124 wrote:
         | Slavic languages do that too
        
         | depressedpanda wrote:
         | I think that might be quite common. In Swedish we have
         | morbror/farbror (literally mother-brother/father-brother) and
         | moster/faster (mother's sister/father's sister). It's similar
         | for grandparents.
        
           | shultays wrote:
           | Turkish also has distinct words for grandmothers that works
           | in a similar way. Father is baba, mother is anne and for
           | grandmothers we have "babaanne" "anneanne" (generally
           | pronounced & shortened as "babane" and "anane")
           | 
           | But interestingly no distinct words for grandfathers, both
           | grandfathers are called "dede" (so no "babababa" or
           | "annebaba")
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | There is even a dedicated word in Turkish to describe the
         | relationship between the husbands of sisters :)
        
         | jofla_net wrote:
         | I like to think that has to do with how strong family and
         | 'extended' family ties are, relative to English speaking
         | countries. When you spend soo much time with relatives you need
         | more distinction. Theres even different words for the various
         | forms of 'in-laws', sister-in-law, spouse of sister-in-law,
         | etc.
         | 
         | Theres a lot of "onto" mapping, things converging when
         | translated, in both directions.
         | 
         | Conversely as a counterexample, the turkish word kalmak, which
         | is to stay, is used broadly in many instances where in English
         | the most correct translation would use verbs such as "to
         | remain", "to be left", in addition to the most straightforward
         | "to stay".
        
       | dkural wrote:
       | It is also used to indicate surprise. "Sular gitmis!". "Bu yemek
       | cok aci olmus!" - heard right after taking a bite :)
        
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